Random Arsenal Shit (When it's not worth starting a thread)

[Letters]

Now they are holding ground by claiming he must be respected and allowed to leave when he fancies it.

No, 'they' aren't. Well, I'm not. He should have left at the end of last season. Arguably before that but last season was his last chance to go with a scrap of dignity intact.
Trying to force him out is not acting like a jilted lover. Pretending you never liked him in the first place and he was always a useless **** is.

[HCZ]

It has taken a huge effort to get people to the stage where they accept Wenger has to go.

Now they are holding ground by claiming he must be respected and allowed to leave when he fancies it. So that's what has to be smashed next. Everyone needs to play their small part, even if it means going over the same ground repeatedly.

The diehards are still clinging on to whatever is left floating, which isn't much. We're at the stage where they are accusing those trying to force him out as behaving like jilted lovers. Jump in whenever you fancy.

I’m pretty sure I wanted Wenger gone even before you did

I still don’t feel the need to revert to revisionism to claim that Wenger was somehow always sub par and that his success was purely serendipity.

Wenger was never a coach, Wenger built a team around the skeleton of George Graham’s team

Somehow these are damning revelations instead of things that were always taken for granted

[Niall_Quinn]

No, 'they' aren't. Well, I'm not. He should have left at the end of last season. Arguably before that but last season was his last chance to go with a scrap of dignity intact.
Trying to force him out is not acting like a jilted lover. Pretending you never liked him in the first place and he was always a useless **** is.

Didn't say I never liked him in the first place. What I've said, for months now, is he's been exposed as a fraud, a con artist, and one of the most selfish men in football. I also said it's him, Wenger himself, that's coming out with claims of how marvellous he is and how indispensable he is and how he's owed something. Why doesn't he shut up about that, I wonder?

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m pretty sure I wanted Wenger gone even before you did

I still don’t feel the need to revert to revisionism to claim that Wenger was somehow always sub par and that his success was purely serendipity.

Wenger was never a coach, Wenger built a team around the skeleton of George Graham’s team

Somehow these are damning revelations instead of things that were always taken for granted

And it is on these revelations, or things we have taken for granted, that the Wengerbots are mounting a last stand. He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?

[Letters]

He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?

Who are you arguing against? Literally no-one on here is arguing that.

[HCZ]

And it is on these revelations, or things we have taken for granted, that the Wengerbots are mounting a last stand. He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?

Which rather feeds into my understanding of why you are doing this

You give these people a rather mystical power to make havoc.

There is only one person responsible from here on in other than Wenger himself for him still being in a job and that is Enos Stanley Kroenke.

Everyone else is irrelevant

[Özim]

I think the view of Wenger was that he was some sort of messiah who produced miracles, hence the reason a lot of Arsenal fans could never imagine life without him and some have clung onto him for dear life, no other manager has be awarded this kind of cult following and frankly if anyone deserves it it's not Wenger.

He did a great job earlier in his career with us, won a few titles whilst producing great football, yes it was fantastic times, but for the greater part of his career with us he's been average and all of his failings have been badly exposed, whilst he was once regarded as a great manager and one of the best around, the reality is whilst the first few years were great circumstances also played a big part and he's not quite as good as people thought, if he had been he'd have done better than he has since 2004 (14 years ago no less).

People have gone on about him like without him we'd be nothing, he's the most amazing thing ever to happen to Arsenal, truth is that's nonsense.

[IBK]

Fair enough, but Wenger is no Milli Vanilli.
Elvis didn't write his own songs and a lot of people still go nuts about him. His strength was as a singer and performer, not a composer. That doesn't diminish people's admiration of him.

Wenger has strengths and weaknesses like every football manager. Like every human.
Any football manager has a team around him. There's the players of course but people off the pitch too. Dein was clearly influential back in the day. Historically though it has always been the manager who gets the most praise for successes and criticism for failures.

To say he just inherited a good defence is lazy. He did, but that team were nowhere near winning the title when Wenger took over and The Invincibles squad was entirely Wenger's, even if some of them were perhaps influenced by the older generation.
Clough did amazing things at Forest and then oversaw a long, slow decline which ended up in them getting relegated. Relegated! And I have never seen anyone pore over or analyse Clough's early success like this to try and diminish his achievements.

When it's 2003 and you're 5 points clear and you then go on a run of W2 D3 L2 which sees Utd go above us and win the title then of course it's disappointing but you have just won the Double the previous year and we did go on to win the FA Cup. It seems a bit churlish to complain. Or it's 2004 and you've just gone out of the CL and FA Cup in a week but then you beat Liverpool and go on to not only win the league but go through the whole season unbeaten.
That is not the to think "Hang on...shouldn't we have retained the title in that era? Shouldn't we have won a CL with that squad?"
Looking back we can think these things, but that doesn't completely diminish the achievements in that era or mean he was never any good.

Even since the glory days he's kept us in the top 4 till the last couple of seasons. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from a title in 2007/8. The last 4 seasons it's been
4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

And people are acting like it's the end of days and Wenger is the worst manager in football. A little over-stated, non?
This is our worst ever season under him and we'll probably finish 6th and we got to a Cup final. As I said, Clough took Forest down and was treated far more kindly than Wenger has been.

The only reason I can see to be quite so outraged is if you think that Wenger is not interested in success any more and is only intent on feathering his own and the board's nest. Personally, I don't think that.
He was a man of his time, but that time was 20 years ago. He hasn't moved on, football has. I honestly think it's as simple as that. I think he did pretty well to keep us relatively competitive during the stadium move.
Since the money has been available he's won a few FA Cups but he's failed to challenge for the biggest prizes. So he should go.
I don't think he should be chased down the streets with burning torches though or all his previous achievements pored over so we can try and find a way of crediting someone else for them.

This is a good, considered post.

I really don't think that it makes sense to argue that Wenger has no strengths. Even since his 'heyday', keeping the club in the top 4 with the level of competition in the EPL and restricted spending power between 2005 and 2012/3 is no mean achievement and speaks to a good manager - even if he cannot be said to have been the very best out there during this period. And a good manager has to have strengths. Pretty much every club apart from Manure and perhaps Chelski during this period would have welcomed this consistency.

I think that maybe the real issues with 'revisionism' or legacy stem from resentment/disillusionment at being sold a vision for the club during this period that simply wasn't delivered; being told by the manager of a previously winning club that 4th place equated to a trophy in itself, and lately the stark evidence that Wenger is no longer capable of competing at the very top level. It is frustrating seeing clearly the faults in the manager and the team that AW refuses to acknowledge and is incapable of addressing. And these feelings are causing anger . Where a team is underperforming as badly ours currently is and has done for a season or more, and this is patently down to a manager who has outstayed his usefulness, it is too easy to conclude that he has no strengths at all. The reality is that whatever strengths he had are no longer fit for purpose - not that they didn't exist in the first place.

As for legacy - the current circumstances dictate that AW does not deserve to bask in any kind of glow for his past achievements. I hope that in years to come, when (hopefully) the current pain has receded, this will not always be the case, and he will be judged fairly, even if he is not revered as he would have been if he had left us in better shape than he now will do.

[Niall_Quinn]

Who are you arguing against? Literally no-one on here is arguing that.

Who said I was arguing against anyone here? And yes, literally loads of idiots are arguing that Wenger can't be sacked because it would be disrespectful, or that he can't go until the end of the season because that would be disrespectful. Did you hear that grovelling worm Ollie Holt, for example?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is a good, considered post.

I really don't think that it makes sense to argue that Wenger has no strengths. Even since his 'heyday', keeping the club in the top 4 with the level of competition in the EPL and restricted spending power between 2005 and 2012/3 is no mean achievement and speaks to a good manager - even if he cannot be said to have been the very best out there during this period. And a good manager has to have strengths. Pretty much every club apart from Manure and perhaps Chelski during this period would have welcomed this consistency.

I think that maybe the real issues with 'revisionism' or legacy stem from resentment/disillusionment at being sold a vision for the club during this period that simply wasn't delivered; being told by the manager of a previously winning club that 4th place equated to a trophy in itself, and lately the stark evidence that Wenger is no longer capable of competing at the very top level. It is frustrating seeing clearly the faults in the manager and the team that AW refuses to acknowledge and is incapable of addressing. And these feelings are causing anger . Where a team is underperforming as badly ours currently is and has done for a season or more, and this is patently down to a manager who has outstayed his usefulness, it is too easy to conclude that he has no strengths at all. The reality is that whatever strengths he had are no longer fit for purpose - not that they didn't exist in the first place.

As for legacy - the current circumstances dictate that AW does not deserve to bask in any kind of glow for his past achievements. I hope that in years to come, when (hopefully) the current pain has receded, this will not always be the case, and he will be judged fairly, even if he is not revered as he would have been if he had left us in better shape than he now will do.

He'll be fine once a few years between his departure and a recollecting have passed. For now though, it's us against him. Or it should be. A whole decade of failure and proving by his actions he has no notable strengths, beyond conning the fans and feathering his own nest, and only catastrophic weaknesses is more respect than anyone could ever hope for. No other manager in recent times has been afforded such respect and at such a high cost, in terms of what the bloke is paid, what it costs the fans and the damage it has done to the club. A huge cost. How much more respect does he want? How much more does he think he's owed? It beggars belief that anyone can muster a good word to say about him given his behaviour. In the heat of the fight you don't stop to reminisce with the enemy, you kill him as quickly as possible before he kills you.

There's still a chance we could win this Europa cup thing, if only somebody would have the balls to fuck this Jonas out the door. There's still something that can be rescued from this season if somebody at the club wants to put football and competition first.

And in every nook and every cranny and every corner of the fandom and the Internet and on match days and with any other opportunity to express an opinion, fans need to rally now and force this fucker out. THEN we can be all nice about it. We're such pussies. Here we are, the fucker halfway out the door, and half of us have stopped to coo at his legacy. JHFC!