Is Wenger stale or is it us?

[Xhaka Can’t]

4.

This, and it is the only point worth making in reply - because a well though out and articulate post seems to regularly miss the mark here.

IBK and yourself have effectively summed up my thoughts on the topic of discussion.

[Power n Glory]

Not really. As LDG says - the debacle that was last Summer's transfer season and the subsequent appalling start to the season meant that it would be difficult to blame a top class player (which RVP undoubtedby is) for leaving. But times change. We finished 3rd last season; have CL football again, and RVP had, to all intents and purposes, become captain of a united Arsenal team that had shown that it could compete on the pitch against the top teams. What's more, with the signings of Podolski and Giroud, the club has shown an ambition that appeared to be lacking last season.

Given the change around, it would not have been unreasonable to hope that RVP would wish to remain top dog at a club where he was adored.

Instead, not only was he unwilling to sign a new contract, but he showed that he was willing to damage the club in order to avoid having to play out the final year of his contract. IMO this is a clear indication that this move is about money more than about winning trophies.

Either way, it doesn't change the validity of the questions that I have been criticised for asking - namely whether he will reach the heaights that he has elsewhere, and whether he was the committed captain we all thought he was.

We finished 3rd but really looked toothless towards the end of the season. We struggled to pick up points in our last 5 games. Also, RVP had talks with Wenger and Gazidis about the future of the club and didn't like what he was told. Is that so hard to believe considering what we've heard Wenger say other the past month about needing to sell before we buy, having cover in the middle, applauding our self-sufficiency model again. The players we're signing maybe mere replacements instead of additions. We hope that's not the case. Also, is it far fetched to assume that the RVP fallout has sparked the club into action regarding our summer activity?

But this is a tiresome conversation and fans continue to follow the same train of thought each year when one of our star players wants to leave. Even when all season we've voiced the same concerns. This whole thread is about Wenger and questioning his managerial ability. If we're having such an open debate about this, why wouldn't the players feel the same when more is at stake for their careers?

[IBK]

I'll give it one last try...

Again, Rvp is a quality player. Whether or not he will score the same number of goals elsewhere is irrelevant and does not even merit discussion. You could say the same for every other key player in any team.

Its not irrelevant - given that this was precisely the point that you chose to pick me up on when we got into this. I have never claimed that RVP was other than a quality player.

Also, adebayor was not the main striker at spurs or even city.

I wonder whether you realise what you have said here, in the context of our discussion? If Adebayor could have a 30+ season with us because he was our main striker, but his scoring record declined elsewhere because he wasn't, why should RVP not follow a similar pattern.

And my point is he has acquitted himself well

.

That might be your point - but its not the point we were debating - which was whether his goal tally diminished, which it has.

But what does it matter, because unless he scores the same number of goals he did in his best season with us, you will claim arsenal was the reason for that tally - which is ridiculous because a quality player is a quality player.

So at the same time as implying that Adebayor's stand out season was because because he was our main striker, you lampoon me for suggesting that Arsenal was the reason for his high goal tally. Curiouser and curiouser!

And ade's situation is completely different from tevez's. Granted he hasn't the same profile as tevez, but my point is he did not fit in mancini's plans. Mancini like any new manager came to the club with his own ideas. That is not an indictment on ade's turnover as a striker. Why dont you look up his tally last season.

It is an indictment. If Adebayor's strike rate was what it was in his penultimate season for us, do you think Mancini would have got rid? Would Mourinho have got rid? Clearly Spurs is his level, and Spurs are a level below us. Adebayor is an object lesson in a player thinking he is better than us, and events not reflecting this. I am not saying that RVP will follow the same trajectory, but its hardly laughable for me to ask whether he might not be as prolific once he leaves us.

Finally it is utterly absurd to suggest that rvps performance last season was to advertise his services. I have never understood this ridiculous and spurious assertion that is regularly made on this board. What is that based on? He wants to leave after reveiwing his options at the close of the season? Did he not leave all talk about his contract till the seasons end? What is odd about that? Wenger has always done that.

Your intemperate language, when all your arguments are so open to challenge does you no favours. What is your alternative view based on? If you look past your inclination to side with player rather than a board you clearly blame, than you will remember that AFC appraoched RVP after the 2010/11 season to open contcat negotiations, but the player was not interested in talking to the club. What does this say to you? That he was not committed to the club.

If you are disenchanted with your job, and think that you might receive offers elsewhere, would you not wish to perform to the best of your abilities so as to make a move more likely? Why would that be different for a player. And why would you think that RVP's motivation in his stand out season was not principally to further his own interests? THAT is what my comment was based on.

[IBK]

We finished 3rd but really looked toothless towards the end of the season. We struggled to pick up points in our last 5 games. Also, RVP had talks with Wenger and Gazidis about the future of the club and didn't like what he was told. Is that so hard to believe considering what we've heard Wenger say other the past month about needing to sell before we buy, having cover in the middle, applauding our self-sufficiency model again. The players we're signing maybe mere replacements instead of additions. We hope that's not the case. Also, is it far fetched to assume that the RVP fallout has sparked the club into action regarding our summer activity?

But this is a tiresome conversation and fans continue to follow the same train of thought each year when one of our star players wants to leave. Even when all season we've voiced the same concerns. This whole thread is about Wenger and questioning his managerial ability. If we're having such an open debate about this, why wouldn't the players feel the same when more is at stake for their careers?

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

[GP]

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

Good post.

[Power n Glory]

Does it even matter whether or not he's prolific when he leave us? We still suffer as a team with his departure and our image takes another blow.

Regarding RVP playing himself into the shop window....you don't believe that do you? He was in fine form form when he returned from injury in the 2010/2011 season. He's always been a player that gives a 100% on the pitch. Everything he did last season is being looked upon with sheer cynicism now. Why would he not play at his best to improve the teams chances of winning the league/FA Cup/CL?

[Power n Glory]

You keep changing the goal posts. You picked me up on apparently changing my position on RVP from last season. I explained how such a change was justified.

We know that RVP's statement claimed that he did not see eye to eye with the board over the future of the club? Since when should players be consulted on strategic club matters? It is utterly disingenuous IMO for players to presume that their views should be taken into account in this regard, and a club whose policies are dictated by members of their playing staff is doomed to failure. This for me exposes RVP's lawyers' words for what they are - an attempt to avoid the mercenary label that a statement that simply admits that he wants to leave for more money would attract.

What baffles me is that such a large majority of fans who claim to love the club should show such antipathy towards those who run the club - and who after all (if we get our heads out of our navels, pan out, and recognise that we have pretty much held our own against 3 clubs with far higher resources than ours) have not done a disastrous job - as to actually side with want away players rather than treat them like normal football fans would be expected to do.

THIS more than anything else justifies the question that I posed originally - are WE the ones who have really gone stale on our club?

Bollocks to that man. Can't even believe after all the discussions we've had about how we need to change as club to move forward that you're even going to pull that card. The discussion can end here.

[IBK]

Bollocks to that man. Can't even believe after all the discussions we've had about how we need to change as club to move forward that you're even going to pull that card. The discussion can end here.

I don't think you have understood my context, PNG. I have as many concerns as you do about the changes that need to be made to our club. But I am drawing a distinction between every fan's right to question what their club is doing, and support for players who basically fuck us over. They are two different things.

Secondly, while there are many things that the club does that are open to question, we do need to realise that these questions are in the context of a club that has fallen from 1/2nd place in the league to 3/4th. We have never been out of the CL places under AW - but the feeling sometimes is that we are relegation material. I don't think its unreasonable to look at ourselves and wonder whether the depth of our disenchantment is because we have grown a bit stale.

First and foremost, whatever our criticism of the board/owners, we are Gooners. To me that means that I naturally hate players that are dislooyal to us. Being a football fan is an emotional business. If my girlfriend dumps me for a millionaire male model, I might resent my low paid job, but that is eclipsed by hatred of her. My first reaction sure as hell ain;t going to be - 'well I can hardly blame her'!

[IBK]

Does it even matter whether or not he's prolific when he leave us? We still suffer as a team with his departure and our image takes another blow.

Regarding RVP playing himself into the shop window....you don't believe that do you? He was in fine form form when he returned from injury in the 2010/2011 season. He's always been a player that gives a 100% on the pitch. Everything he did last season is being looked upon with sheer cynicism now. Why would he not play at his best to improve the teams chances of winning the league/FA Cup/CL?

It matters, because that was the innocuous question that I was pulled up on. I agree 100% that we are weaker in many ways without him.

And everything he did last season is quite rightly being regarded with cynicism, because he can hardly have behaved more cynically towards the club. If his interests lay with the team he would a) not have made his statement, and b) have been prepared to negotiate a new contract with us.

[Joker]

Yes, there's not a contradiction between fans who love the club to show strong antipathy against the owners. The owners are not Arsenal FC, they are primarily businessmen who know the price of everything but the value of nothing. Some owners are better than others, but at our club it has become manifest that our owners are totally out of touch with the fans, which explains the season ticket price hikes in recent seasons, the patronising BS written by PHW in the Daily Star, and the continuous blind adherence to our "self sustainable" model which relies on treating fans as consumers to be exploited rather than people without whom no football club would exist.

You could argue some of the former shareholders have a long history with Arsenal FC, which is fine, but their recent actions (especially by cashing out having put little in the way of investment into the club) suggests they see Arsenal as purely a financial investment vehicle.

RE: whether the views of the players should be taken on board, yes I think it should be. Otherwise we have a situation where the separation between the fans and the owners simply grows bigger and bigger, with the fans caring about what happens on the pitch and the owners looking at the balance sheet. Of course you could say players are mercenaries, so their views don't align perfectly with the fans either, but I'd argue their views are closer to the average fans' than the owners' are.

Worker representation on the boards has actually worked well in other industries (for example, in Germany you have union/workers representation on every board), and their businesses run much better than the "short-term obsessed" UK businesses. I know the analogy is not perfect, but I still believe it could work well in football as well.