Ozil - Do we need him?

[fakeyank]

The real problem is we spent 17mill (or was it 13mill) on Perez. Should have been 60million on a world class striker to supplement the likes of Ozil and Alexis.

I am not sure how this is supposed to work. Alexis is more than a 60 million quid striker at the moment. Assuming we continue to play with one man upfront then where would you have played this 60 million pound striker? I have no issues with Perez and would love him to get a run of games. What I'd like instead (and I have been saying this for many years now) is for us to revert back to the 4-4-2 formation for some our homes games and against lower table sides. That'll give the likes of both Sanchez/Giroud, Giroud/Perez or Sanchez/Perez a chance to show what they are made of.

We have only one way of playing and if that is nullified we look like a deer caught in headlights. We absolutely need to change things up, go back to basics and utilize all our players effectively. Unfortunately, our manager is a raging moron who will do none of that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wouldn't mind so much if we played him properly once in a while to see what he can do! I do agree about the other, although the money is ridiculous, it's the price a top club has to pay to get the top players. Trouble is, Wenger doesn't agree with overpaying for players, but he just buys a lot for his money instead of quality and he has to keep buying. It would be cheaper to get the quality in the first place.

Exactly. Wenger and the board see eye to eye when it comes to attempting to play at the top level on a second tier budget. Which is weird because then they go and fuck up the whole philosophy by paying average players big money way, way before they have ever done anything to earn it. I think Wenger has always been paranoid about losing what he sees as his young talent, so he overpays for his pet projects to retain them. Then he fails to develop them and money wasted. Even worse they hang around at the club and eventually end up on silly money. I think Diaby was getting 70K for never playing. That idiot Bendtner was on 50+ with his heels dug in, like a cat that doesn't want to get kicked out for the night.

So there's a bag of conflicting and competing policies when it comes to the money. But in the end we bagged a bunch of second tier, and I'd even say third tier in Perez's case, players for 90mill. Pure panic mode and another symptom of refusing to spend the required amount early and often. As a club we seem to derive a perverse pleasure in almost winning something even though we've spent less than our rivals. Then we just assume if they had spent less, we'd be the better team and we'd win. Doubtful really. The money is the excuse for many ailments and it's the blanket and shield for Wenger's lack of proper squad planning.

So answering the following post by PnG, yes I agree to a degree. There's more going on here than just the money and the money wouldn't be able to cover all flaws. But I think just getting better quality on to the pitch, picking the right professionals, it might help drag up the performance levels and if nothing else it would redress the balance between the banker-like owners and executives and the hard taxed fans. But yes, I concede, given who would be doing the spending and humming and hawing and prevaricating, it's either unlikely we'd seriously be able to compete against our rivals in the transfer market or, if we managed it, we'd buy precisely what we don't need and then try to shoehorn another player into a fundamentally broken operation and lament when that player couldn't pull us out of the fire off his own back.

We've had some great players down the years who almost managed to pull us up, but nobody ever managed it because the deficit between where we need to be as a club and where we actually are is too big and being gradually widened rather than closed. One man is at the focal point and it sounds like we have at least another 2 years of it yet.

[Niall_Quinn]

I am not sure how this is supposed to work. Alexis is more than a 60 million quid striker at the moment. Assuming we continue to play with one man upfront then where would you have played this 60 million pound striker? I have no issues with Perez and would love him to get a run of games. What I'd like instead (and I have been saying this for many years now) is for us to revert back to the 4-4-2 formation for some our homes games and against lower table sides. That'll give the likes of both Sanchez/Giroud, Giroud/Perez or Sanchez/Perez a chance to show what they are made of.

We have only one way of playing and if that is nullified we look like a deer caught in headlights. We absolutely need to change things up, go back to basics and utilize all our players effectively. Unfortunately, our manager is a raging moron who will do none of that.

Wenger wants every outfield player to be able to play in every position, and that's how he sets us up. Our striker drifting deep, our wide men (infuriatingly) drifting to the centre, our "holding" midfielders racing up the pitch to get on the end of crosses coming in from the central striker. Tell me I'm wrong.

So if you are so arrogant that you believe your players are masters of all trades and comfortable with "total football" then you'd best have masters on the pitch and not minors who talk a good game but then can't deliver.

So a new striker and Alexis on the same pitch is really no problem at all. You just hope the new guy can hold it up better, pass it more accurately, shoot more effectively than the guys we already have.

[mastermind84]

Stop lying. You weren't. I was saying in the below thread I've never understood why Sanchez was never given a run up front when replying to AFC Leveller when he said Sanchez should be played through the middle.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/sh...923#post503923

Here was your response.



You weren't the one advocate and the thing you've said he shouldn't be doing and can't do (create) is what's helping the players around him now. Over the summer, you went further and said he can't play as striker.

You're not even the first to say Sanchez should play up front. It's a conversation that goes as far back as when IBK used to post on here. See below. It goes even further back because I recall some other posters mentioning it way back when discussing our striker options when Giroud was injured and we signed Welbeck.

http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=3417

I made the below comment.




You were involved in that thread and said nothing about Sanchez being able to play up front. It's not even an original point because when we first bought Sanchez, Wenger said he could play up front and had him playing there for a short stint. As said before, I've never understood why he wasn't given much game time up front when first arriving. He had a slow start but it's not million miles away from the slow start he's had playing up front this season.

In previous conversations about what sort of striker we need, you kept emphasizing having someone strong enough to hold the ball up. I've kept saying we don't need that. Theo's game against Utd was an example and how Sanchez is playing now is further evidence. Sanchez dropping deep presents a problem for Ozil but it hasn't stopped the creativity. Theo is scoring goals, Ozil is scoring and even Ox is having his best season goal wise. Space opens up when we have a striker that's not so static.

I'm now seeing discussions on what sort of striker works with Ozil and some articles suggesting to even go back to Giroud. Why would we do that? With Sanchez being goal scorer and taking over the chance creation and assist duties from Ozil, isn't this thread and discussion still relevant? Ozil will have to adapt to the circumstances. He's not the most influential player. From midfield, it's still Santi Cazorla. You've also been wrong about Xhaka but that's another topic. So if Ozil isn't the main guy in the final third anymore or the main guy helping us get the ball from the defence into the final third...is he that big an influence on how we play?

thats inaccurate.

There was no balance yesterday. We had a great attack, and its probably our best attack since 2007-8, but the balance is bad. Sanchez is great attacking on the right, but he left Bellerin out to dry. Same with Iwobi on the left.

We also need to start playing 3 CMs.

I cannot stress this enough, but if Sanchez learns how to play center forward it would solve a lot of our problems. But Sanchez is super daft and will keep chasing the ball and just messing up things.

He still chases the ball and it hurts our shape. I am critical of him because ALexis does eat space.

Alexis is a forward. Like the world midfield needs to be taken out of his position and mindset.

Alexis loves the ball too much

But it really should work. We have the guys to get him the ball. He just needs to be patient.

Speaking of things that have nothing to do with this thread, how is Vincent Janssen doing?


And I have been right about Xhaka. The problem is Wenger refuses to implement him correctly but even in this mess of a system, the guy has been great for us.

How is Elneny doing? Remember when you said he had a wide passing range?

I have to keep saying it but the problem with this squad is Wenger and Wenger alone. He doesnt emphasize the buildup.

[Power n Glory]

He still chases the ball and it hurts our shape. I am critical of him because ALexis does eat space.






Speaking of things that have nothing to do with this thread, how is Vincent Janssen doing?


And I have been right about Xhaka. The problem is Wenger refuses to implement him correctly but even in this mess of a system, the guy has been great for us.

How is Elneny doing? Remember when you said he had a wide passing range?

I have to keep saying it but the problem with this squad is Wenger and Wenger alone. He doesnt emphasize the buildup.

Xhaka's being used wrong? You mean like in a 4-3-3 but with Ramsey and Wilshere in midfield bombing forward? It's looking unlikely Xhaka can control the midfield on his own and needs a partner. He hasn't solved that problem as you once claimed.

You're still wrong about Sanchez because with him dropping back to create, it makes space for Theo, Ozil and OX/Iwobi to run in behind. Way more intelligent than you give him credit for and can spot a pass.

Humble yourself. You're not right about everything. I know I'm not.

[mastermind84]

Xhaka's being used wrong? You mean like in a 4-3-3 but with Ramsey and Wilshere in midfield bombing forward? It's looking unlikely Xhaka can control the midfield on his own and needs a partner. He hasn't solved that problem as you once claimed.

No, I mean in a 3 man midfield where everyone plays their zone and Xhaka drops behind the fullbacks to collect the ball and play it forward and is almost like a CB when we have the ball.

He is an ELITE DLP that Wenger decided he wanted to be a box to box midfielder. Thats what I meant when I say Wenger does not worry about the build up. You can see it from how often he touches the ball at Arsenal vs at Mochengladbach. Xhaka rarely gets over 80 passes at Arsenal when he did that regularly there.

Even still, his vertical passing has been beneficial for our wins against West Ham and Basel. He was even solid against Everton.

City was a disaster but the bigger question is where were the outlet balls? Our wide players were way too deep.

You're still wrong about Sanchez because with him dropping back to create, it makes space for Theo, Ozil and OX/Iwobi to run in behind. Way more intelligent than you give him credit for and can spot a pass.

I don't think he is way more intelligent than im giving him credit for, if anything I think you are downplaying the intelligence of Theo and Ozil and Iwobi.

Dropping back isnt to create for his teammates. It is supposed to be to pull out the centerbacks. The only time that worked against a top side was Chelsea who were a disaster.

Alexis can def spot a pass, but Ozil is much better at it and Alexis falls in love with slide rule passes that are hard to complete. I wish he would play it over the top a bit more than he does.

What Ive always said is that he is an elite finisher who needs to be closer to goal. There are still a lot of flaws with us but it mostly comes down to Wenger.

Humble yourself. You're not right about everything. I know I'm not.

I know I am not right about everything. I take Ls a lot. I am not sure I am wrong here tho, especially since I think most of our problems come down to Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

Xhaka hardly getting over 80 passes is down to his style of play. That's not usually a problem for Santi or Elneny when playing. But they play a shorter passing game and it's pass and move, pass and move when they play.

I'm not even sure about a 3 man midfield with everyone playing their zones would work. We certainly could do with more structure there but the issue with Xhaka goes all the way back to when we played City during the pre season. When pressed and harassed, he'll make mistakes. Passes go astray and he's easily dispossessed. I recall Blink noticing how the majority of great passes we saw in those youtube clips over the summer were made under no pressure and defenders gave him loads of space. He knew he wouldn't that sort of time and space for us at Arsenal. It's a good observation because that's why he's not having the impact you expected. Wenger did say something weird about him being box to box but also said recently hat he is a deep laying player. He certainly doesn't play box to box for us and it has often been Coquelin pushing up further than Xhaka but that's in order to win the ball back early. Xhaka often sits deeper and I rarely see him burst from box to box.

If you had watched the first half of the City pre season game, you'd have seen how Xhaka struggled against the high press and we were boxed in for the first. Only until Elneny came on did we get a hold of the midfield and beat City. Xhaka would dwindle on the ball and have it pinched off his toes or get closed down when trying to sort his feet out. It's worth listening to Arsenal Vision podcast. They noticed this flaw in his game too and said it's down to him being so one footed and unwilling to pass the ball with his weaker foot. That's another good observation and explains why I have no faith in him playing against high pressing teams. If he receives it on his weaker side, he'll try to shift it to his left foot. It leaves him vulnerable and it looks like he's dwindling on the ball.

Not sure how you can conclude that I don't appreciate the intelligence of Theo, Iwobi and Ozil. I never once downplayed their intelligence. That statement in itself is just another demonstration of you undercutting Alexis. You're also playing semantics with this dropping back thing. His movement is what creates space for players to get in behind. He doesn't have to touch the ball. Rewatch Ozil's last goal with that header and assist from Ox. It's not just a case of it working against Chelsea. As said, we're seeing the fruits from that with the goals Theo, Ox, Iwobi and Ozil have scored this season. This is the most Ozil has ever scored in a season. Same goes for Ox.

[mastermind84]

Xhaka hardly getting over 80 passes is down to his style of play. That's not usually a problem for Santi or Elneny when playing. But they play a shorter passing game and it's pass and move, pass and move when they play.

Thats why I said Xhaka is an ELITE deep lying playmaker being asked to play box to box.

He would get more touches if he was playing where he is elite on the pitch. Its like asking Ozil to be a left back.

Elneny is a Denilson clone and Santi is definitely more busier. But the difference between Xhaka and Santi in their passing is Xhaka has a better range of passing. Santi's gift is that he is two footed while Xhaka's gift is he can ping a ball 70 yards up the pitch to spring a counter.

Wenger is using him wrong.

I'm not even sure about a 3 man midfield with everyone playing their zones would work. We certainly could do with more structure there but the issue with Xhaka goes all the way back to when we played City during the pre season. When pressed and harassed, he'll make mistakes. Passes go astray and he's easily dispossessed. I recall Blink noticing how the majority of great passes we saw in those youtube clips over the summer were made under no pressure and defenders gave him loads of space. He knew he wouldn't that sort of time and space for us at Arsenal. It's a good observation because that's why he's not having the impact you expected. Wenger did say something weird about him being box to box but also said recently hat he is a deep laying player. He certainly doesn't play box to box for us and it has often been Coquelin pushing up further than Xhaka but that's in order to win the ball back early. Xhaka often sits deeper and I rarely see him burst from box to box.

If you had watched the first half of the City pre season game, you'd have seen how Xhaka struggled against the high press and we were boxed in for the first. Only until Elneny came on did we get a hold of the midfield and beat City. Xhaka would dwindle on the ball and have it pinched off his toes or get closed down when trying to sort his feet out. It's worth listening to Arsenal Vision podcast. They noticed this flaw in his game too and said it's down to him being so one footed and unwilling to pass the ball with his weaker foot. That's another good observation and explains why I have no faith in him playing against high pressing teams. If he receives it on his weaker side, he'll try to shift it to his left foot. It leaves him vulnerable and it looks like he's dwindling on the ball.

Xhaka was bypassed City's press in the first half on Sunday before the goal, so I dont know how true that statement is. He also played in the Bundesliga which is the league that presses the most and started the shift to organized pressing in football, so that aint true either.

And Arsenal plays a double pivot so both midfielders push up.

You watched the match on Sunday and saw us get outnumbered vs a midfield 3 with our two man midfield and Ozil and Iwobi swapping the 3rd midfield role but really being attackers. How can you see that, and see what happens against other teams with 3 man midfield in our big matches like Liverpool, PSG, and United. Even Southampton, and not think we should go with a 3 man midfield? The issue is Wenger doesnt know how to organize one properly, and Coquelin being awful versus one (City didnt even bother pressing him and double teamed Xhaka. Coquelin was absolutely horrendous on Sunday. He only completed 16/26 passes, and only 4/10 passes in the 2nd half.)

Make Ozil a forward and bring in a real 3rd midfielder and drop Coquelin. Id not even have a problem with Elneny because of his 1 touch passing because he gives an option.

On Sunday, we had to go with Coquelin due to injuries but going forward there needs to be a 3rd ACTUAL central midfielder in the team and Coquelin should not be one of them.

Not sure how you can conclude that I don't appreciate the intelligence of Theo, Iwobi and Ozil. I never once downplayed their intelligence. That statement in itself is just another demonstration of you undercutting Alexis. You're also playing semantics with this dropping back thing. His movement is what creates space for players to get in behind. He doesn't have to touch the ball. Rewatch Ozil's last goal with that header and assist from Ox. It's not just a case of it working against Chelsea. As said, we're seeing the fruits from that with the goals Theo, Ox, Iwobi and Ozil have scored this season. This is the most Ozil has ever scored in a season. Same goes for Ox.

I am saying it about Alexis because its what he does. He is a space eater.

I am not ignoring Theo and Ozil scoring off Alexis but they have adjusted to what he does. What he is doing now is not demonstrably different than when he was playing on the flanks, its just that its in the central channels now. Thats why I am saying to give the others credit because they are running into that vacated area. Less intelligent players ignore it.

As for Ozil scoring more goals, like I said prior he and Alexis have become something like a false 9 partnership.





At the end of the day, a lot of our fans, and the English speaking football media, love to shit on players. Its why you got that hack article from Barney Ronay, or the pathetic article about Arshavin being more productive than Ozil, etc. They also love runners, people who look like they are doing something. Its easier to see. Whats not easy is to take a look at the system. There is a systemic problem with this club's tactics. I do not have the answers but the man who is supposed to have the solutions also does not. This current system is not working and has not for some time. You can all sit here and scapegoat and blame top players who have shown top ability at other stops, but if they are shining elsewhere in bigger matches and failing here, who is the problem? Its been this way for a decade. Its not mentality, determination, pashun, physicality, or whatever nonsense cliches that the Ronay types like to say, or what you read from Arseblog. There is a tactical issue here. This team will never reach its potential until Wenger either changes his ways and starts implementing whats going on around him in Europe and starts using his players correctly, or he goes. Its that.

[Niall_Quinn]

There is a systemic problem with this club's tactics. I do not have the answers but the man who is supposed to have the solutions also does not. This current system is not working and has not for some time. You can all sit here and scapegoat and blame top players who have shown top ability at other stops, but if they are shining elsewhere in bigger matches and failing here, who is the problem? Its been this way for a decade. Its not mentality, determination, pashun, physicality, or whatever nonsense cliches that the Ronay types like to say, or what you read from Arseblog. There is a tactical issue here. This team will never reach its potential until Wenger either changes his ways and starts implementing whats going on around him in Europe and starts using his players correctly, or he goes.

This is what it all amounts to. A bad conductor can fuck-up the most adept orchestra, a bad choreographer can leave a prima ballerina on her arse, a football team coached by Wenger is going to be swimming in deep, deep shit. Whether they are strong enough individually to swim hard and prevail, well some of them can and some of them can't. The joke is the man looks set to get another 2 years, which means nothing changes. Get rid of Ozil, get a replacement in, same result.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

I think the Xhaka box to box thing was one of the most bizarre comments Wenger has ever made.....

It couldn't appear more untrue.