Coronavirus Pandemic

[Ollie the Optimist]

The roll out is indeed a shambles. But before we start sucking each other’s dicks, let’s have another look at those mortality statistics.

I really dont get the point you are making.

Yes, we have had high death rates from Covid which therefore makes it essential we roll out the vaccine and quickly as possible to bring those down.

However, Europe has also suffered high death rates in this second wave. Take Germany for example. They had 9,000 deaths from March to October (indeed everyone was asking why weren’t we like Germany in the first part of the pandemic) yet since October they have had over 65,000 deaths. Indeed, France & Italy have had similar numbers as well of deaths in the second wave.

Interestingly though, they had lower case rates then we did, reporting around 10-15,000 day which either shows they were not testing enough and actually had similar case rates to us (given Germany in January was reporting 1,000 plus deaths a day like us) or they had an extremely deadly version of the disease that killed 10% of those infected.


So given that the major countries in Europe were all suffering from high death rates, it is essential to roll out the vaccine. This is what we have done and acted quickly a year ago in securing contracts and putting in risk money to fund the vaccine research (the EU put money in but only on the condition that it was returned if Vaccine failed to develop). So therefore having the EU leaders question the safety of this vaccine as Germany & France did with their outrageous claim that it was only 8% safe in over 65s or indeed didnt work in older people will have cost lives.

You want to look at the mortality statistics, go ahead but they will increase in Europe because of the misinformation and complete failures of the leadership in rolling out hte vaccine

[Ollie the Optimist]

maybe Ollie but we still have one of the highest Covid death rates per capita in teh world and our government has made a lot of mistakes - it's almost only got this one thing right by accident tbh but trust them to crow about it

I dont disagree that this government made mistakes. Locking down too late, stupid rules that no one can follow etc. There have been major mistakes.

But i dont think this rollout was by accident. Right from the start, they realised that vaccine was only way out. They hired Kate Bingham (who most just accused of cronyism) but it worked. She got contracts & supplies agreed quickly, her team put risk money into the research to help fund the vaccines.

They worked well on teh rollout using both private enterprise & public sector to deliver.

As i said above, there have been a lot of mistakes but so far in the vaccine rollout, there have been none. It wasnt an accident although i can see why with this government, any success may appear that way

[GP]

Except that isn’t true.

There are several reasons why we could not have done what we have done with the vaccine if we were still in the EU.

1. The EU stopped countries like Germany, France, Netherlands (& i believe either Spain or Italy) from agreeing their own contracts with AZ. The EU took control of the vaccine purchasing & distribution process which led to delays. France etc had agreed a contract in June, the EU delayed signing it until August as they tried to renegotiate terms.

That meant delays in setting up supply chains which is resulting in slow rollout of the vaccine now. So the UK would not have been allowed to negotiate their own deals as all other 27 states were not allowed so why would UK have been?

2. While it is true each country’s medical regulator can issue emergency authorisation for drugs before teh EMA, it is almost 100% certain taht would not have happened in the UK. The reason being is that if we were still in the EU, the EMA would have still been based in the UK. It only moved because of brexit i believe. Therefore, given the EMA effectively outsourced a lot of work to the UK regulator, it would have been incredibly difficult politically if the UK authorised a vaccine and the EMA hadn’t.

3. As we would have been part of the EU vaccine scheme, we wouldn’t have received as many doses as we have so while we might have rolled it out at the same speed as we have now (i.e several hundred thousand doses a day), we would not have vaccinated as many people.


There are benefits to being in the EU but in this case, the vaccine rollout success is because we are out of the EU and made our own decisions and at speed. Take the AZ contract, we agreed it in May and started working on supply chains. As i mentioned, EU stopped Germany etc from signing their own deal (the CEO of AZ in an interview said they had agreed a deal with those countries ) and took an additional 2 months to agree the same deal themselves. This lost valuable time.

Except that member states weren't obliged to join the scheme. We could have opted out of it.

So yes, we could still have done the exact same thing.

[Niall_Quinn]

I really dont get the point you are making.

Yes, we have had high death rates from Covid which therefore makes it essential we roll out the vaccine and quickly as possible to bring those down.

However, Europe has also suffered high death rates in this second wave. Take Germany for example. They had 9,000 deaths from March to October (indeed everyone was asking why weren’t we like Germany in the first part of the pandemic) yet since October they have had over 65,000 deaths. Indeed, France & Italy have had similar numbers as well of deaths in the second wave.

Interestingly though, they had lower case rates then we did, reporting around 10-15,000 day which either shows they were not testing enough and actually had similar case rates to us (given Germany in January was reporting 1,000 plus deaths a day like us) or they had an extremely deadly version of the disease that killed 10% of those infected.


So given that the major countries in Europe were all suffering from high death rates, it is essential to roll out the vaccine. This is what we have done and acted quickly a year ago in securing contracts and putting in risk money to fund the vaccine research (the EU put money in but only on the condition that it was returned if Vaccine failed to develop). So therefore having the EU leaders question the safety of this vaccine as Germany & France did with their outrageous claim that it was only 8% safe in over 65s or indeed didnt work in older people will have cost lives.

You want to look at the mortality statistics, go ahead but they will increase in Europe because of the misinformation and complete failures of the leadership in rolling out hte vaccine

All great points Ollie, except:

Nobody knows what the actual death rates are because all the numbers have been rigged. Accept that fact or don't, but the reality is every death has a proviso attached - even by the people fixing the number. Died after having an positive Covid test within the last 28 day... and being hit by a bus.

And nobody knows how many cases we've had because the tests are almost 100% unreliable. If you don't want to hear me saying that repeatedly then go and find any of the thousands of medical professionals who say it, or go and listen to the guy who invented this lab procedure that has been hijacked.

And, of course, "The New Kid on the Block" (which is what the ignoramuses hilariously use every time to describe the strange phenomenon), which has been misrepresented on death certificates and for which we have no reliable case totals, seems to have replaced every other respiratory death in a miracle that not even the "The New Kid on the Block" phenomenon can cover.

So basically, Ollie, ALL the data is fraudulent and we know NOTHING about how many people have died or at what rate they have died. Do you believe that Ollie? Or would you rather ignore these simple facts and instead believe the politicians who have "done a great job" rolling out an untested experimental vaccine on a population that has been soaked in fear for a year long, 2-week curve flattening period?

You believe the politicians? Oh, okay then.

Still doesn't mean they haven't done the worst job that any government has ever done in the history of this nation. You can look back at the Labour idiots in the 70s, or King John when he almost brought the nation to bloody civil war, Ollie Cromwell, Harold when he let that frog invade - nothing compares to the shameful capitulation of this present government, the worst of all time.

Great job indeed. Locked everyone up, took away their liberties and then injected them full of shit - while lying all the time and pushing fear porn, fucking up the NHS, destroying education, shutting down the economy and banning a man from doing an honest days work. While enriching all their big corporate buddies.

Yeah, what a fucking amazing job!

Much more of this amazingness and we'll all be destitute or dead.

Here. You lived through this without shitting your pants, I assume.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/a...ke-deaths.html

[Ollie the Optimist]

Except that member states weren't obliged to join the scheme. We could have opted out of it.

So yes, we could still have done the exact same thing.

The EU used the emergency support instrument to take over the vaccine purchasing scheme. They act on behalf of all members with an allocated budget for actions. I don think you can opt out of it.


But given all 27 member states did not opt out and the accusations levelled at the UK over vaccine export bans etc. Do you really think if we were still in the EU, opted out of their scheme and purchased the vaccines ourselves and jabbed 25 million people while EU barely has any supplies that would have been acceptable? There is no way that happens

[Niall_Quinn]

Used to be parody exaggerating reality. Peter wouldn't be able to keep up these days.

[Niall_Quinn]

The EU used the emergency support instrument to take over the vaccine purchasing scheme. They act on behalf of all members with an allocated budget for actions. I don think you can opt out of it.


But given all 27 member states did not opt out and the accusations levelled at the UK over vaccine export bans etc. Do you really think if we were still in the EU, opted out of their scheme and purchased the vaccines ourselves and jabbed 25 million people while EU barely has any supplies that would have been acceptable? There is no way that happens

You'll educate yourself on EU procurement policy - but not the science behind Covid?

[GP]

I don think you can opt out of it.

You think wrong.

[Letters]

Nobody knows what the actual death rates are because all the numbers have been rigged. Accept that fact or don't, but the reality is every death has a proviso attached - even by the people fixing the number. Died after having an positive Covid test within the last 28 day... and being hit by a bus.

The numbers I've been looking at - and posting - are all cause mortality. It was 30% above the average by Christmas, 44% above by mid-Feb.
So even if the Covid deaths are a bit inflated by people falling down a well after a positive Covid test and it being recorded as a Covid death - and I agree that has happened - that doesn't account for many of the "Covid" deaths. In fact the deaths recorded as Covid deaths correlates pretty closely with the excess deaths.

And nobody knows how many cases we've had because the tests are almost 100% unreliable. If you don't want to hear me saying that repeatedly then go and find any of the thousands of medical professionals who say it, or go and listen to the guy who invented this lab procedure that has been hijacked.

The guy who invented the lab procedure said that it can be misused, which it can.
You previously claimed that the WHO admitted the tests didn't work - it took me a minute to find a video on their website where they said that the PCR tests are the most reliable. But sure, they have released some advise about how many cycles to use in the tests to mitigate false positives.
And if the tests are "100% unreliable" then why do the cases correlate with hospitalisations and deaths?

And, of course, "The New Kid on the Block" (which is what the ignoramuses hilariously use every time to describe the strange phenomenon), which has been misrepresented on death certificates and for which we have no reliable case totals, seems to have replaced every other respiratory death in a miracle that not even the "The New Kid on the Block" phenomenon can cover.

The assertion that a new respiratory virus tends to dominate a flu season came from an Ivor Cummins video - I think it was one you posted

So basically, Ollie, ALL the data is fraudulent and we know NOTHING about how many people have died or at what rate they have died.

OK. So what are you basing your opinions on? You have previously claimed that Covid has a tiny fatality rate without providing any evidence or a source.
Now you're claiming nobody knows?
Which is it?

I basically agree that the government's response has been shambolic, but the data I'm looking at tells me there is a situation which demands a response.
If you think that data is wrong then OK, let's see what data you're basing your opinions on.

[Ollie the Optimist]

You think wrong.

Is there an article or something you can link about that? All i could find was the EU saying they were using their emergency instrument to take control and there is no opt for that.

Genuinely interested as I couldn’t find anything.

Unless you are referring to us opting out of the scheme? In which case that is different given we weren’t members of the EU last year