Black Lives Matter

[Niall_Quinn]

You have grasped the wrong end of the stick in my post. Totally.


Nowhere have I said, or even suggested, that average whites are systemically racist - whether in the USA, the UK, or most places elsewhere. I dont believe that. I don't even believe that the US police are systemically racist in the sense that most people would understand this.


Nowhere have I suggested that some black communites in the US aren't disfunctional. Some, and other communites in the US and everywhere, are, clearly. For a range of socio-ecominic reasons.


Nowhere have I suggested that we should have mob rule. Nor that the rule of law is inadequate or should not apply, or should be subverted. Nor that each case should not be looked at on its own merits. Nor that you can require every individual to comply with an ideal.


I am no liberal zealot. I regard myself as far from 'woke' and I understand a great deal about history - and social reality. I do not deny your earlier reference to black crime statistics.


Instead I made, and stand by, a simple point. That US Society, as any other, has inbuilt cultural and societal (as opposed to institutional) conceptions and pre-conceptions. If you want to believe that America's history of slavery and racial segregation does not inform some of these these (both inside and outside the black community), then that is your prerogative. IMO the position is a lot more nuanced than claiming that white Americans feel that black people remain inferior - I think this is far from the case. The UK population no longer believes in Empire, but outdated misconceptions about our place in the world undoubtedly impinged on the Brexit vote in some way, for example.


If you want to take the view that race (of itself - and not just in the context of crime statistics) did not play a part in the killing of George Floyd - and continues to be a factor in black police killings in the US, that's fine. But personally, I feel that this not only flies in the face of reality, but impedes any real analysis of what needs to happen to stop black people from being killed by those whose job should be to protect them from harm.

I wasn't accusing YOU of saying these things, I was drawing on your conclusion that slavery somehow led to the string of transgressions on the left I went on to describe. Slavery is a poor excuse for the way the so-called civil rights movement has morphed into the very thing it used to stand against.

Maybe there is a small psychological level of assumption when it comes to race, but I'd be massively surprised if that had anything to do with slavery. Surely it is more realistic to conclude any such beliefs are driven by the modern day circumstances rather than a long distant past? Blacks are more likely to commit crime, especially against blacks. Blacks are more likely to grow up in dysfunctional families and communities. Part of that comes down to individual choice - there are outstanding examples of people from the most deprived backgrounds prevailing in life - part of it comes from the careful construction of these environments for political gain.

The discussion has been hijacked and it is now "racist" to question the convenient foundations that have been constructed to support the spurious arguments and claims of the left. And it's not just the state manipulating black communities either. The same is true of abusive and regressive organisations such as antifa and black lives matter.

Maybe, at a deep level, slavery does account in some way for what has transpired. It's a reach but, if we assume it is the case, that should be number 500 on a list of issues far more pressing that need to get resolved before any further progress can be made. But these things aren't even discussed any more in the culture of fear that the "progressive" left has birthed. Start there if you want to heal the divides and bring about justice and equality. Point at the guilty of today rather than the guilty from the past.

[Niall_Quinn]

Just wait until Biden defunds the Police, then the real fun will begin

The police will defund themselves. Would you want to work a job where you are getting shot at by one side and prosecuted by the other? I don't mean the recent case either, I mean the psychological effect it must have to go from living heroes 20 years ago (also false) to institutionalised racists today. Hw can that have happened in such a short time? It's an incredible silly argument that is entirely political and has no basis in reality, except in the limited incidence you will find in all professions and all walks of life.

It really is unforgivable for a political party to be playing this game without any regard for the consequences.

[Globalgunner]

The importance of the verdict in the George Floyd case is hopefully in shift of mindset amongst the police rank and file. For too.many years have police shot people black and white and covered themselves in the cloak of impunity. I feared for my life while shooting someone in the back. How does someone running away threaten you. Police need to stop defending the polity against the populace. Black people in America have for decades sought refuge from the police rather than with them. Next time a cop claims he mistook a 50 gramme taser for a 1kg pistol. He/she may think twice not think they may get away with it.

[IBK]

I wasn't accusing YOU of saying these things, I was drawing on your conclusion that slavery somehow led to the string of transgressions on the left I went on to describe. Slavery is a poor excuse for the way the so-called civil rights movement has morphed into the very thing it used to stand against.

Maybe there is a small psychological level of assumption when it comes to race, but I'd be massively surprised if that had anything to do with slavery. Surely it is more realistic to conclude any such beliefs are driven by the modern day circumstances rather than a long distant past? Blacks are more likely to commit crime, especially against blacks. Blacks are more likely to grow up in dysfunctional families and communities. Part of that comes down to individual choice - there are outstanding examples of people from the most deprived backgrounds prevailing in life - part of it comes from the careful construction of these environments for political gain.

The discussion has been hijacked and it is now "racist" to question the convenient foundations that have been constructed to support the spurious arguments and claims of the left. And it's not just the state manipulating black communities either. The same is true of abusive and regressive organisations such as antifa and black lives matter.

Maybe, at a deep level, slavery does account in some way for what has transpired. It's a reach but, if we assume it is the case, that should be number 500 on a list of issues far more pressing that need to get resolved before any further progress can be made. But these things aren't even discussed any more in the culture of fear that the "progressive" left has birthed. Start there if you want to heal the divides and bring about justice and equality. Point at the guilty of today rather than the guilty from the past.

I am 100% with you when it comes to discussions being hijacked. We are seeing it in so many areas - the LGBTQ+ debate; BLM; the re-writing of history; arguments that plaques and statues should be removed - hell, I even read a piece on Oscar winning movies that should now be 'outed' for portraying unacceptable tropes ('Green Book' and 'Crash' were included on the list - which misses the point of both movies). I couldn't agree more about the danger of the cancel culture that is as repressive as many of the causes that the 'liberal left' are promoting.


But I think we ignore the existence and pervasiveness of embedded societal and cultural 'muscle memory' at our peril. And acknowledging this is all the more important because it is often sub-conscious. We are all affected by it - it is part of the human condition - and because in this case it it too close to the idea of being racist (which the vast majority of people, in the US and in most other places find abhorrent) it is too easily dismissed. IMHO this is part of the nuanced debate that I think we should all be having, instead of both sides hiding behind their own causes.


And let's start with institutions such as the police. Demonising the US police force in general is wrong, and counter-productive. Helping individuals avoid making decisions that result in unncessary deaths surely isn't.

[Chippy]

The importance of the verdict in the George Floyd case is hopefully in shift of mindset amongst the police rank and file. For too.many years have police shot people black and white and covered themselves in the cloak of impunity. I feared for my life while shooting someone in the back. How does someone running away threaten you. Police need to stop defending the polity against the populace. Black people in America have for decades sought refuge from the police rather than with them. Next time a cop claims he mistook a 50 gramme taser for a 1kg pistol. He/she may think twice not think they may get away with it.

I agree with you, we have seen too many incidents where the shooting has been totally unnecessary.

The thing that gets to me is that there are many incidents where a black Police Officer has shot a black person, however, this is never reported on mainstream news, which are of course, run by the left wing media.

If you look at reports on Independent media sites, you have many people of colour that are tired of BLM and other "band wagon" organisations because they are only representing their Marxist agenda and not the real victims.

[Niall_Quinn]

I agree with you, we have seen too many incidents where the shooting has been totally unnecessary.

The thing that gets to me is that there are many incidents where a black Police Officer has shot a black person, however, this is never reported on mainstream news, which are of course, run by the left wing media.

If you look at reports on Independent media sites, you have many people of colour that are tired of BLM and other "band wagon" organisations because they are only representing their Marxist agenda and not the real victims.

Try posting that on Twitter.

You're right, it's a minority driving this crazed agenda and not an ethnic or gender minority either, but a gang of self-interested, financially and power motivated scumbags who think they have a better version of hw the world should work so are using every subversive trick in the playbook to bring that about. And throwing anyone and everyone under their boots as they crawl towards their goal. It's been done before, the outcome will be the same as it always was should these miscreants succeed.

[Ollie the Optimist]

I agree with you, we have seen too many incidents where the shooting has been totally unnecessary.

The thing that gets to me is that there are many incidents where a black Police Officer has shot a black person, however, this is never reported on mainstream news, which are of course, run by the left wing media.

If you look at reports on Independent media sites, you have many people of colour that are tired of BLM and other "band wagon" organisations because they are only representing their Marxist agenda and not the real victims.

While not a black police officer in this case, there was a shooting recently in america where a police shot a black 16 year old girl. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...shoot-her.html

There was a video going around on social media yesterday of it and i have to say from what I’ve seen on the video or read in the media, I’m not sure the officer was in the wrong here. The 16 year old had a knife, grabbed another person and genuinely looked as if they were going to stab them.

But its the reaction i find interesting. There have been protests about the officer shooting a black woman yet it could be argued he saved a life by stopping the woman stabbing another black person.

There are the usual arguments about whether police should be armed etc but in a similar situation, if the officer did not have a gun, it appears extremely likely that the woman would have stabbed the other person and at the very least, caused serious injuries if not death. What do these protests want to achieve here as protesting the police here seems like the wrong thing to do given they appear to have a saved a life by taking quick action

[Globalgunner]

I agree with you, we have seen too many incidents where the shooting has been totally unnecessary.

The thing that gets to me is that there are many incidents where a black Police Officer has shot a black person, however, this is never reported on mainstream news, which are of course, run by the left wing media.

If you look at reports on Independent media sites, you have many people of colour that are tired of BLM and other "band wagon" organisations because they are only representing their Marxist agenda and not the real victims.

It is probably true that Black officer shooting a black person does happen. It's not reported because the circumstances are rarely the same as when its white on black. Same when its white on white, though this is way more common. Simply because of demographics. Even in a black.majority city like Baltimore, the police rank.and file will be majority white so.etimes with a black police chief. The fact is when you don't see a fellow.human being as worthy as yourself you diminish their value. We have seen it through history as one set of people ruthlessly goes about exterminating another. The system has enforced this. Whether it's the 1992 beating of Rodney King, captured on video yet all the officers walked free. Guns warp peoples.sense.of their own importance and more guns heighten the overall paranoia. Life is cheap in America. Black lives seem to be even cheaper.
BLM has been hijacked by opportunists just like any organisation. One of its co founders going on.a real estate shopping spree that she could never afford before. It's no more than a charade but that doesn't diminish the core angst that it sought to corral. Ask 100 people if they would have been happy to have been born black and you will find your answer. Non black people of course.

[Globalgunner]

While not a black police officer in this case, there was a shooting recently in america where a police shot a black 16 year old girl. https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...shoot-her.html

There was a video going around on social media yesterday of it and i have to say from what I’ve seen on the video or read in the media, I’m not sure the officer was in the wrong here. The 16 year old had a knife, grabbed another person and genuinely looked as if they were going to stab them.

But its the reaction i find interesting. There have been protests about the officer shooting a black woman yet it could be argued he saved a life by stopping the woman stabbing another black person.

There are the usual arguments about whether police should be armed etc but in a similar situation, if the officer did not have a gun, it appears extremely likely that the woman would have stabbed the other person and at the very least, caused serious injuries if not death. What do these protests want to achieve here as protesting the police here seems like the wrong thing to do given they appear to have a saved a life by taking quick action

If the officer had used a taser. Maybe they could have saved 2 lives. These officers are routinely trained to deescalate but usually go for the kill first. Not seen the video.so.I cant say if this would have been feasible. Just sting what happens generally. I recall watching a video on TV. Where some white police officers in some hick town surrounded a white woman in her car. The cops all had guns drawn. Maybe after a long chase. When this housewife jumped out of her car with guns drawn, all the cops just turned round and fled. World's.most dangerous drivers or something was the name of the documentary.

How.many instances have police been called in a case of a mentally unstable.person. and the sick person has been shot dead within seconds of the police arriving. Several.

[Ollie the Optimist]

If the officer had used a taser. Maybe they could have saved 2 lives. These officers are routinely trained to deescalate but usually go for the kill first. Not seen the video.so.I cant say if this would have been feasible. Just sting what happens generally. I recall watching a video on TV. Where some white police officers in some hick town surrounded a white woman in her car. The cops all had guns drawn. Maybe after a long chase. When this housewife jumped out of her car with guns drawn, all the cops just turned round and fled. World's.most dangerous drivers or something was the name of the documentary.

How.many instances have police been called in a case of a mentally unstable.person. and the sick person has been shot dead within seconds of the police arriving. Several.

You make an interesting point about the taser and its fair question. In the video i saw, from the police officer arriving to the suspect being shot was around 20 seconds so not much time to de escalate and i believe he tried to split up two others first before realising someone else had a knife.

I’m not sure how accurate tasers are either if you have two people close together and therefore if there is a risk of missing the suspect and getting the victim instead. Genuinely not sure on that so don’t know if that plays a part in teh decision making.

But you are right in the sense that police in america are very quick to go for guns first and that will take a while to change