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  1. #31771
    Member WMUG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    I remember at church one time two separate people said they felt prompted to tell me I should get prayer about something. I don't believe those two people spoke to each other or colluded and it was such a niche thing I don't believe it was a coincidence.


    You used to be everything to me
    Now you're tired of fighting

  2. #31772
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    I like Tim Minchin a lot. Seen him live once, actually. Very talented guy.
    But I think he's one of those people who treats faith as an intellectual exercise, maybe even thinks he's a bit too clever to believe all this God nonsense. I don't think one should blindly believe things either but there is a middle ground.



    To respond to the song - yeah, but as I said when you keep on hearing these stories...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    HCZ has dealt with some of this but of course he has beliefs.
    He will claim they are based on evidence, I'd say the same about my religious beliefs. I'll come back to that.
    Evolution is very well evidenced but it's pretty arrogant of us to think that current scientific theories are "correct" when historically scientific theories have been repeatedly replaced by better ones as new evidence emerges. HCZ mentions geocentricism, in the 20th century Einstein transformed our understanding of gravity.

    I roll my eyes a bit at my father in law who is on some young earth creationist FB group and occasionally shares some utter nonsense on there. I actually did a sermon at my church on science and Christianity, it's a subject I believe a lot of Christians get wrong so I thought it needed addressing. The headline is I don't see science and Christianity as being in opposition to one another, more complimentary. "Science asks how, religion asks why" is simplistic. Sometimes they both ask "how", but in different ways. As a Christian I believe that God created the universe. Science gives me an insight into some of the detail and mechanisms behind that. I don't see those two things as a contradiction.
    What science will never do is answer questions about whether there's life after death in any sense or whether there's a purpose to life. Those questions are just not in the scope of science.

    I can't prove God exists, no-one can prove He doesn't. But I do believe my faith is evidence based. There's good evidence that Jesus existed, for example. The places He taught in exist, you can still visit them today. If the Bible talked about someone who there's no evidence outside the Bible even existed, and talked about places which don't exist then that would be a big red flag. Then there's the more personal level of evidence - one example, I remember at church one time two separate people said they felt prompted to tell me I should get prayer about something. I don't believe those two people spoke to each other or colluded and it was such a niche thing I don't believe it was a coincidence. It could have been of course, but I regularly hear other people at church tell me about things they've experienced and it builds my faith. I may be wrong of course, but I don't believe my faith in blind. Which brings me on to...


    I sympathise with some of that frustration, I mentioned my father in law above. I get annoyed by Christians who I think have silly views, taking parts of the Bible as literal scientific truth when to me they're clearly poetic. I think it makes us look silly. But I would note this - the "post truth" world we now live in has arisen at a time when the country has got less religious. So religious thinking hasn't been replaced by clear, logical thought (not that I think you have to make a choice between those two things!).
    Particularly the bold part. Some people have a blind 'faith' in science - but science itself is not a 'truth'. In a couple of centuries time (if humanity has not wiped itself out by then - or suffered a new dark age) what many people regard as absolutes now will be proven to be mistaken or misconceived.

    For me, religion in essence (spirituality?) is an attempt to make sense of the world and ourselves. Neither the Bible or the Koran are intended to be literal - although some of the messages in both (and in many other religions) speak to the essence of what it means to be human, and offer moral guidance that is important for a proper functioning society.

    Your points on science and religion being complimentary are interesting. I see an element of philosophy in religion that secular societies tend to ignore. Perhaps both are involved in searching for truth - but in different ways.
    Putting the laughter back into manslaughter

  4. #31774
    Member Mac76's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by IBK View Post
    Some people have a blind 'faith' in science - but science itself is not a 'truth'. In a couple of centuries time (if humanity has not wiped itself out by then - or suffered a new dark age) what many people regard as absolutes now will be proven to be mistaken or misconceived.
    but it's the best we've got and I would rather use it (without as you say placing completely blind trust in it) than what is ultimately superstition as a basis for guiding decisions

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    The best we've got for what? It depends what you're trying to do.
    When it comes to decisions about, say, Covid, then of course you should use science and data.
    When it comes to more a personal journey, finding purpose in life, I don't think it's a particularly useful tool.

    "Science can purify religion from error and superstition; religion can purify science from idolatry and false absolutes.
    Each can bring the other into a wider world, a world where both may flourish."
    - Pope John Paul II

    I quoted this in the aforementioned sermon. Not generally a big fan of popes, but I like this quote a lot.

  6. #31776
    Pureblood The Wengerbabies's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mac76 View Post
    but it's the best we've got and I would rather use it (without as you say placing completely blind trust in it) than what is ultimately superstition as a basis for guiding decisions
    Any moral scientist will tell you, you can't trust scientists. As a scientist myself ,having worked at leading research universities, I can tell you first hand they'll say anything to get the funding they want/need for their own projects, usually nothing to do with the narrative the government are trying to push.

  7. #31777
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    Quote Originally Posted by Letters View Post
    Not generally a big fan of popes.
    Ooh, I know a song about that!
    You used to be everything to me
    Now you're tired of fighting

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    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-68357976





    Genuinely a bit sad about this one. He didn't do anything else of note (that I've seen, anyway). But he was great in The Office.

  10. #31780
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    obvs sorry if someone has passed away (unless it's Trump, Johnson or Farage in which case I'm having a party), but I've never heard of him and never liked the Office - Gervais is a fat self-satisfied smug git who i've never found remotely amusing

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