Euro 2024

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spain 2-1 France, FT!!

Deschamps. :lol:

[Letters]

Awful tournament from Mbappe

[Marc Overmars]

Mbappe had a touch of Ronaldo tonight. Just rushing everything and desperate to be the hero.

He’s obviously a quality player but will need to adjust now playing for Real Madrid.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

This would be Spain's fourth European Championship, Lineker said it'd be their third.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Dickhead Photographer takes Morata out, won’t be big loss for Spain :lol:

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Security guard njured Morata!

[HCZ_Reborn]

I bought Lamine Yamal for Arsenal on football manager about a month before the tournament started and he was about 19 then (cost me over 100 million) had never heard of him, thought he’d be one of those players that’s good on football manager but never achieves anything in real life

[Letters]

I bought Lamine Yamal for Arsenal on football manager about a month before the tournament started
I didn't do that because I'm not 14 and thus don't play computer games


##

[Mac76]

Security guard njured Morata!

a photographer and a security guard, blimey everyone really had it in for Morata last night... :lol:

Good game, Spain def the best team in it, but still think England might pub their way through pels etc

[HCZ_Reborn]

a photographer and a security guard, blimey everyone really had it in for Morata last night... :lol:

Good game, Spain def the best team in it, but still think England might pub their way through pels etc

Beeb changed their mind, first a photographer then a security guard

The Dutch have even worse record at pels than we do

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh fuck off Southgate

[Mac76]

The usual England lineup - so depressing

come on Netherlands :ninja:

England XI: Pickford, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Trippier, Mainoo, Rice, Saka, Bellingham, Foden, Kane.
Subs: Shaw, Alexander-Arnold, Konsa, Ramsdale, Dunk, Gallagher, Toney, Gordon, Watkins, Bowen, Eze, Gomez, Henderson, Palmer, Wharton

Netherlands XI: Verbruggen, Ake, van Dijk, De Vrij, Simons, Depay, Gakpo, Reijnders, Dumfries, Schouten, Malen.
Subs: Geertruida, De Ligt, Wijnaldum, Weghorst, Frimpong, Bijlow, Van de Ven, Veerman, Blind, Bergwijn, Brobbey, Zirkzee, Flekken, Gravenberch.

[Letters]

I hope we win tbh

[HCZ_Reborn]

Why does Trippier keep getting games.

Kane as awful as he’s been in this tournament, he’s at least got some reputation to lean on. Trippier has always been slow, poor at crossing, not great tackler and despite this demands the ball…especially for free kicks based on one free kick against Croatia scored six years ago

Konsa the best defender for us by a clear mile against Switzerland and is dropped. Even if you bring Guehi back and I question the wisdom of that, Walker has been terrible and Konsa would be excellent on the right.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Southgate has set his stall out so it's all on him tbf.

[Mac76]

They'll pub it like they always do but it's going to be another 120 minutes of torture followed by them winning on pels

Please can Van Dyke just take K**t out of the game for good

[HCZ_Reborn]

Never been a time where the Dutch national anthem doesn’t vaguely remind me of the Christmas Carol “O little town of Bethlehem”

[Letters]

1-0. Shit.

Great goal though

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 Simons, what a strike!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Not Rice’s finest moment, slipped allowing Simons to make the run

[McNamara That Ghost...]

That's not a pel surely.

[Letters]

Penalty check for us
That would be a bullshit penalty.
It is a bullshit penalty

[Mac76]

No way is that a pel

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 Kane. Will take it but that's never a pel.

[Mac76]

So a defender can no longer try to block a shot in the box, well done ref, good decision :rolleyes:

[Niall_Quinn]

Unbelievable, i think Kane is the top scorer in the tournament now.

Never a pen, but not going to turn it down.

[Niall_Quinn]

Much, much better performance than the prior shitshows though. Low bar, but still.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Cleared off the line!

[Letters]

Best we’ve played for a long time, this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Dumfries header on to the bar!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Foden smacks the woodwork!

[Marc Overmars]

Never a penalty but overall that’s the best we’ve played so far.

Mainoo has made a big difference in getting us playing.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-1 HT.

[Letters]

Best we’ve played for a long time

[Mac76]

1-1 HT better from England but lucky to be level, that said they're doing enough to win it though Gakpo's not yet had a shot and will surely come into the game at some point

[Letters]

Mainoo and Foden :bow:

[Mac76]

Sorry but Wright talking utter shite re the pel, Neville on the other hand is absolutely right :sick:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Foden smacks the woodwork!

Where has this Foden been for last three weeks

[Marc Overmars]

I would get Shaw on. Our left side is so weak with Trippier.

[Mac76]

I would get Shaw on. Our left side is so weak with Trippier.

Looked like he was warming up

[HCZ_Reborn]

Sorry but Wright talking utter shite re the pel, Neville on the other hand is absolutely right :sick:

Calling it Reckless was bit silly

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Malen off, Weghorst on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Trippier was giving a lot more energy and forward motion. Shaw is like a statue. Don't quite get that sub. He's taken all the energy out of the performance.

[Niall_Quinn]

Really stupid of Southgate to make the change at HT before he knew what Koeman would do. If you'd allowed Koeman to pick a player that suited his changes, he'd pick Shaw.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Great save from Pickford off Van Dijk!

[Marc Overmars]

We’ve stopped playing and that usually means disaster incoming.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Rice been poor tonight

[Niall_Quinn]

Bellingham booked for 50/50

[Marc Overmars]

Get Toney on to hold the ball up and get others involved.

Kane has been awful.

[Niall_Quinn]

Rice been poor tonight

What, on one misplaced pass? His job tonight has been to fight physical battles in the middle, which granted is a shame. But he's done it okay. A decent manager would move him up the field and bring some support in behind him. And the Shaw sub has been catastrophic. It has neutralised Walker on the other side because the threat of Trippier has gone.

[Niall_Quinn]

Palmer warming up. Trouble is, he won't sub Kane. So can't see how it will make much difference.

[HCZ_Reborn]

What, on one misplaced pass? His job tonight has been to fight physical battles in the middle, which granted is a shame. But he's done it okay. A decent manager would move him up the field and bring some support in behind him. And the Shaw sub has been catastrophic. It has neutralised Walker on the other side because the threat of Trippier has gone.

You can’t be serious, the only thing Trippier achieved first half was keeping Dumfries quiet. Shaw has been poor doubtless, but it wasn’t that depressingly slow lump giving us threat


Rice has been good at putting out fires, not so this evening and the poor pass sums up his evening

[Niall_Quinn]

It's lucky the Dutch no longer have a Bergie or RVP or Robben (hateful bastard) or this would all be over.

[Niall_Quinn]

You can’t be serious, the only thing Trippier achieved first half was keeping Dumfries quiet. Shaw has been poor doubtless, but it wasn’t that depressingly slow lump giving us threat


Rice has been good at putting out fires, not so this evening and the poor pass sums up his evening

No, his forward positioning pulled men away from Foden and Bellingham. It wasn't what he did with the ball, it's where he played. Shaw is a block of stone. The Dutch can safely ignore him. Freeing up resources.

[Niall_Quinn]

Such a lovely goal, ruled out. Shame.

[Niall_Quinn]

OMG - those are GOOD subs!

[HCZ_Reborn]

That was far more to do with Bellingham drifting further left and giving Foden more space to operate in the middle

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Foden off, Palmer on. Kane off, Watkins on

[Niall_Quinn]

That was far more to do with Bellingham drifting further left and giving Foden more space to operate in the middle

No it wasn't, WTF. Bellingham is having to drift out now, because Shaw is on the beach somewhere.

[Niall_Quinn]

Look at that lazy cunt Shaw! 3 front men press, it goes across to him and he's nowhere. What a useless lump.

[HCZ_Reborn]

No it wasn't, WTF. Bellingham is having to drift out now, because Shaw is on the beach somewhere.

Honestly look back on the first half, Bellingham preferred to run into traffic than past the ball to Trippier on the overlap

Shaw may well be statuesque but Trippier has been a consummate embarrassment all tournament

[Niall_Quinn]

Good foul by Saka.

[Marc Overmars]

If we lose this now we only have ourselves to blame.

Reverted to type and let the game drift away from us. This is why we need a better coach.

[Niall_Quinn]

Honestly look back on the first half, Bellingham preferred to run into traffic than past the ball to Trippier on the overlap

Shaw may well be statuesque but Trippier has been a consummate embarrassment all tournament

Just stop. I fucking hate Trippier. But he's twice the player Shaw is because of his mobility, nothing else. He was high up the pitch and that's ALL that was required. He did fuck all else, but he occupied the Dutch. THAT'S the big difference. You can go into coaching manuals all you want but you can also just use your eyes.

[Niall_Quinn]

OMG, what? Palmer FFS! That's got to be a goal.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Just stop. I fucking hate Trippier. But he's twice the player Shaw is because of his mobility, nothing else. He was high up the pitch and that's ALL that was required. He did fuck all else, but he occupied the Dutch. THAT'S the big difference. You can go into coaching manuals all you want but you can also just use your eyes.

I think both of them are terrible, but Shaw did something just now Trippier is incapable of

[Niall_Quinn]

That could be it, the wasted moment.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Watkins!!!

[Letters]

WATKINS!!

2-1

[Niall_Quinn]

I think both of them are terrible, but Shaw did something just now Trippier is incapable of

OMG. Shaw contributes for the first time in a whole half of football and THAT'S what you'll fall back on just to try and make a point? Okay, I counter with first half good, second half SHITE. Reason for that. Not just Shaw but he mightily contributed.

[Niall_Quinn]

There you are. Goodby Harry Kane!

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-2 Watkins!!

[Niall_Quinn]

So, definitely don't kick it in your own net now.

[Marc Overmars]

Get in!!

What a finish

[Niall_Quinn]

This is what speed and energy give you, over plod, plod, tip, tap.

[Niall_Quinn]

Ally McMoist is taking credit for the win. Ally :bow:

[Mac76]

Watkins!

K**t :wave:

[HCZ_Reborn]

OMG. Shaw contributes for the first time in a whole half of football and THAT'S what you'll fall back on just to try and make a point? Okay, I counter with first half good, second half SHITE. Reason for that. Not just Shaw but he mightily contributed.

Your argument is based on assuming that im saying Shaw is a better option. I’m not, I’m saying Trippier is shite and was in no way responsible for our decent play in the first half. The reason we looked poor is that the Dutch stodged up the game.

I have no argument with you saying Shaw is shit

[Niall_Quinn]

What the fuck are they making subs for now? That's CRAZY!

[Niall_Quinn]

Your argument is based on assuming that im saying Shaw is a better option. I’m not, I’m saying Trippier is shite and was in no way responsible for our decent play in the first half. The reason we looked poor is that the Dutch stodged up the game.

I have no argument with you saying Shaw is shit

Okay, okay, you win. Whatever point you are making is correct. Now go away.

[Marc Overmars]

Kane never makes that run. Well done Watkins

[Marc Overmars]

Full time!!

Wow.

[Niall_Quinn]

There it is. TBF, the Dutch are shit now so it's an expected win. Spain. Difference proposition. BUT, if Southgate suddenly grows a pair there are players here who could win it. It is ESSENTIAL Kane is dropped though, but I doubt that will happen.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Fair play, England were the better team.

Amazing what a bit of pace, purpose, positivity can do though. A striker actually making a run into the box.

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[Niall_Quinn]

Good first half. Southgate's limitations evident in second half, BUT, I think he may have finally admitted defeat because his two later subs were sane.

[Marc Overmars]

First half we were excellent, second half was poor but we stayed in the game and credit to Southgate for the sub. Kane just doesn’t make those runs anymore, only Watkins is scoring that goal I reckon.

Back to back Euro finals. Let’s hope we go one better this time but Spain will be a much tougher proposition than Italy were last time. I think we’ll probably lose but I think we’re stubborn enough to make it difficult for Spain and we’ve clearly got a lot of difference makers at the top end of the pitch.

[Mac76]

So much BS on the TV about Southgate getting the subs right, doesn't any of them realise that if we had Watkins and Palmer on at the start we'd simply be better throughout?

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

Wasn't there talk of a bank holiday last time England were in a position to win the Euros?

Sent from my M2101K6G using Tapatalk

[Letters]

What a goal! I honestly didn’t know what he was doing shooting there but fair play.
Brilliant. And we deserved it tonight.
Come on, England!

[HCZ_Reborn]

So much BS on the TV about Southgate getting the subs right, doesn't any of them realise that if we had Watkins and Palmer on at the start we'd simply be better throughout?

Dunno, maybe with Watkins but have to say as someone who has decried Foden he played well tonight and Palmer as a substitute has largely been a bit hit and miss.

[Mac76]

You can't tell me that after what Watkins showed in 10 minutes any sane person wouldn't want to have more of that

[HCZ_Reborn]

You can't tell me that after what Watkins showed in 10 minutes any sane person wouldn't want to have more of that

Scored a good goal but was operating with more space than he would have done in opening sixty minutes
It’s hard to argue his effectiveness wasn't doubled as an impact substitute. Not saying Kane shouldn’t be dropped for him. What I’m saying is I don’t think starting with Watkins would have made a great deal of difference to how the first half went as he’d have had far less space to work with

[Marc Overmars]

Kane doesn’t look fit and he’s not making runs, so even though at their best Kane is superior to Watkins I’m not sure what else we’re going to see from Kane now, he looks like a bum.

Fully expect him to start though but at least Southgate has shown he’s not afraid to haul him off.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Kane doesn’t look fit and he’s not making runs, so even though at their best Kane is superior to Watkins I’m not sure what else we’re going to see from Kane now, he looks like a bum.

Fully expect him to start though but at least Southgate has shown he’s not afraid to haul him off.

I would agree with that

I think it’s a big call to bench your captain, and one Southgate clearly isn’t strong enough to make. A bit like Martinez lacking the balls to bench Ronaldo

[HCZ_Reborn]

Player ratings

Pickford 6 - Slow to react to Simon’s goal, though arguably the pace on the shot meant would have been hard for him to keep out


Walker 7 - Much, much improved from the last two games


Stones 6 - Let himself get bullied by Weghorst a bit, but otherwise quite solid


Guehi 6 - Quiet night. Think he can consider himself fortunate not to be dropped in favour of Konsa


Rice 6 - Passing and tackling not quite at the level it was against Switzerland


Mainoo 7 - Not as influential as he was against Switzerland, but still confident…good at winning the ball


Bellingham 6 - Drifted wide in this game, didn’t have the impact he would have wanted


Foden 7.5 - Given space in the middle actually saw the player that has been on show for Man City this season


Saka 7 - Some of his crossing a bit overcooked, but unlucky to have his goal ruled out


Trippier 5 - Kept Dumfries quiet but totally negated any attacking threat we might have on the left


Kane 5 - In the box more than against Switzerland, but fortunate to win a penalty off an avant-garde interpretation of what constitutes a foul


Subs:


Shaw 5 - One decent bit of control and crossing aside was completely non-existent


Palmer 7.5 - Perhaps should have done better with Shaw’s cross but caused much pant shitting amongst the men in orange


Watkins 8 - From that angle it’s a brave man who takes that shot on, but he did it with absolute certainty and confidence


Gallagher and Konsa - not on long enough to make it worth giving them a rating

[Letters]

Kane doesn’t look fit and he’s not making runs, so even though at their best Kane is superior to Watkins I’m not sure what else we’re going to see from Kane now, he looks like a bum.

Fully expect him to start though but at least Southgate has shown he’s not afraid to haul him off.
Mate of mine who is a Spurs fan reckons he may be just coming back from a knock.
He’s seen him enough over the years. He says that Kane often takes some time to get back up to speed. I’m not sure we have the time to let him do that though.

[Niall_Quinn]

So much BS on the TV about Southgate getting the subs right, doesn't any of them realise that if we had Watkins and Palmer on at the start we'd simply be better throughout?

Walk before you run. At least he brought them on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Scored a good goal but was operating with more space than he would have done in opening sixty minutes
It’s hard to argue his effectiveness wasn't doubled as an impact substitute. Not saying Kane shouldn’t be dropped for him. What I’m saying is I don’t think starting with Watkins would have made a great deal of difference to how the first half went as he’d have had far less space to work with

Again, WTF. Several crosses went into an empty box tonight. Kane is fine provided everyone plays at his pace, which is sloooooooooow. I gues that must be what the German league is all about. Don't know, don't watch it. But if Kane is the bomb over there then it must be geared up to suit him down to the ground. At top levels though, Kane is an old man trying to play a young game.

[Niall_Quinn]

Mate of mine who is a Spurs fan reckons he may be just coming back from a knock.
He’s seen him enough over the years. He says that Kane often takes some time to get back up to speed. I’m not sure we have the time to let him do that though.

Shame Soutgate doesn't seem to know that then.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Again, WTF. Several crosses went into an empty box tonight. Kane is fine provided everyone plays at his pace, which is sloooooooooow. I gues that must be what the German league is all about. Don't know, don't watch it. But if Kane is the bomb over there then it must be geared up to suit him down to the ground. At top levels though, Kane is an old man trying to play a young game.

Not even talking about Kane. Watkins is 5ft 11, not exactly a prodigious header of the ball. The claim is whether had we started with Watkins whether the game would have turned out differently, and I don’t think it would because there would have been less space for him to operate in. I’d have started with Toney and Watkins with the latter drifting left.

The very simple point is that a player with pace was an effective impact sub.

[Mac76]

Mate of mine who is a Spurs fan reckons he may be just coming back from a knock.
He’s seen him enough over the years. He says that Kane often takes some time to get back up to speed. I’m not sure we have the time to let him do that though.

We're in the final - I'd say that means we don't have time

Start Waktins or Toney and we've got a chance against Spain, start the whale and we'll be two down at HT

[Letters]

On the other hand, he manages to win us penalties by kicking other players so that’s got to be worth something :unsure:

[HCZ_Reborn]

On the other hand, he manages to win us penalties by kicking other players so that’s got to be worth something :unsure:

If I was the KNVB (Dutch fa) I’d want a detailed and forensic explanation for why that penalty was awarded. You could perhaps just about understand if it was awarded on the pitch and VAR didn’t overturn it, but going to the pitch side monitor and giving it after originally not. That could set a really dangerous precedent in the game

[HCZ_Reborn]

My mate full of Hubris, that somehow having better individual players than Spain in most positions will mean we should comfortably beat them. Never mind that we haven’t comfortably beat anyone in this tournament.

If Walker plays like he did last night, might be able to keep Nico Williams at bay. Trippier? Going to get roasted by Yamal.

Rice can’t play out and can be pressed too easily. We won’t have the time to tolerate Bellingham and Foden squabbling over which one of them occupies the centre of the pitch


Watkins could give Carvajal trouble, as much trouble as Saka will cause Cucurella but it’s academic as he won’t start


A properly coached England side would be big favourites against Spain. It’s not to say we can’t win, just nothing I’ve seen from us in this tournament suggests that we will

[Letters]

If I was the KNVB (Dutch fa) I’d want a detailed and forensic explanation for why that penalty was awarded. You could perhaps just about understand if it was awarded on the pitch and VAR didn’t overturn it, but going to the pitch side monitor and giving it after originally not. That could set a really dangerous precedent in the game

Even that American woman who does the explanations of the decisions said before he went to look at the monitor that it wasn't a penalty. It was a very strange one. That said, we were much the better team in the first half and the Dutch had ages to get a second goal and barely threatened so I don't think overall they can feel that hard done by. It's like us against West Ham and Newcastle last year. Yes, it's possible that the ball was out before the goals were scored but we had ages to turn it round and didn't. If it had been a late penalty which won us the game then there's more cause for complaint, but it wasn't.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Even that American woman who does the explanations of the decisions said before he went to look at the monitor that it wasn't a penalty. It was a very strange one. That said, we were much the better team in the first half and the Dutch had ages to get a second goal and barely threatened so I don't think overall they can feel that hard done by. It's like us against West Ham and Newcastle last year. Yes, it's possible that the ball was out before the goals were scored but we had ages to turn it round and didn't. If it had been a late penalty which won us the game then there's more cause for complaint, but it wasn't.

Oh we deserved to win, I don’t think there’s any question there, but you don’t want to be done by an outrageous decision no matter what.

[Marc Overmars]

Wonder if Rice and Saka will be fit for the start of the season. I imagine they could miss Wolves at home but you’d want them back for Villa away.

[Mac76]

On the other hand, he manages to win us penalties by kicking other players so that’s got to be worth something :unsure:

:lol: well in that one (admittedly important) instance yes but the ref didn't buy his pathetic diving the rest of the time tbf

[Mac76]

nothing I’ve seen from us in this tournament suggests that we will

I think the officials will be key because while Spain aren't the tica-taca side they were, a bit of kicking and diving will probably be England's best chance to unsettle their game and so if they can get away with it I say they'll win

[dazthegooner]

Well the final is being officiated by Francois Letexier,
Letexier will be assisted by compatriots Cyril Mugnier and Mehdi Rahmouni while Szymon Marciniak, who refereed the 2022 World Cup final and 2023 Champions League final, has been appointed as the fourth official. (copied from The Athletic)

[Letters]

:lol: well in that one (admittedly important) instance yes but the ref didn't buy his pathetic diving the rest of the time tbf

I don't deny that Kane is a diver, I don't think he's been particularly bad in that regard this tournament. He's just generally not been that effective.
Whether it's the style we're playing or coming back from a knock I'm not sure.

[Mac76]

I don't deny that Kane is a diver, I don't think he's been particularly bad in that regard this tournament. He's just generally not been that effective.
Whether it's the style we're playing or coming back from a knock I'm not sure.

I know you think it's just the spuds thing with Kane for me, but it isn't, while i think neither Walker or Trippier have been great it's Kane for me that's been the standout fail of every England lineup in this tournament

people can argue about which midfield/forward players should start and in which position, but for as long as they've very little attacking outlet because the striker is slow, keeps dropping back and basically is only good for the occasional straightforward tap-in or pelanty, they are going to struggle

It's the same reason i go on about Zin, if I see a particular weak point in a team, the weakest link in the chain, I do get a bit obssessed by it but not without very good reason

Surely no one can think we wouldn't have been better if we'd been playing either Watkins or Toney up front all tournament

I'm not a person who takes much delight in seeing a side win badly, this isn't a lower league team pubbing a cup win against a Man City, this is a team who should win by playing the best football and maximising its resources and Kane is the biggest example of how Southgate's England is consistently failing to do it

Yes, they're gradually improving but for as long as they don't start Watkins or Toney they can only improve so far

[HCZ_Reborn]

I know you think it's just the spuds thing with Kane for me, but it isn't, while i think neither Walker or Trippier have been great it's Kane for me that's been the standout fail of every England lineup in this tournament

people can argue about which midfield/forward players should start and in which position, but for as long as they've very little attacking outlet because the striker is slow, keeps dropping back and basically is only good for the occasional straightforward tap-in or pelanty, they are going to struggle

It's the same reason i go on about Zin, if I see a particular weak point in a team, the weakest link in the chain, I do get a bit obssessed by it but not without very good reason

Surely no one can think we wouldn't have been better if we'd been playing either Watkins or Toney up front all tournament

I'm not a person who takes much delight in seeing a side win badly, this isn't a lower league team pubbing a cup win against a Man City, this is a team who should win by playing the best football and maximising its resources and Kane is the biggest example of how Southgate's England is consistently failing to do it

Yes, they're gradually improving but for as long as they don't start Watkins or Toney they can only improve so far

No it’s not the Spurs thing, you just take against an individual and then you refuse to acknowledge anything positive about them. And given we couldn’t get midfield passing properly and still can’t pass out from the back well, it almost seems precipitous to have Kane as the biggest problem given how little we have created in this tournament overall and the joke is Kane is also joint top scorer in this competition whilst being terrible.

Kane has been poor in this tournament no doubt, but the way you’ve singled him out when he takes his place alongside Trippier and before last night Walker and Foden in being poor. The main reason he stands out is your personal dislike of him that’s been pretty evident on here for a while. Now it’s your opinion which you’re entitled to, but if you’re trying to tell me it’s an objective one? Well I’d say don’t piss up my back and tell me it’s raining :lol:

[Letters]

While we're here, don’t piss up my back at all.

[Mac76]

While we're here, don’t piss up my back at all.

:lol:

And @hcz, once again you unerringing go full steam ahead in the wrong direction, ignoring or missing the point, which is that if those midfielders, whoever they are, have Kane coming back and getting in their way and not being upfront keeping defenders busy and making runs, it massively limits their options

Even the Arsenal midfield couldn't create much for a while last season (remember how we were all saying we needed to sign a striker in the Jan window) umtil Havertz and Trossard discovered their scoring boots

[HCZ_Reborn]

:lol:

And @hcz, once again you unerringing go full steam ahead in the wrong direction, ignoring or missing the point, which is that if those midfielders, whoever they are, have Kane coming back and getting in their way and not being upfront keeping defenders busy and making runs, it massively limits their options

Even the Arsenal midfield couldn't create much for a while last season (remember how we were all saying we needed to sign a striker in the Jan window) umtil Havertz and Trossard discovered their scoring boots

No that’s you trying to make Kane fit into your model of everything going wrong and trying to deflect your over simplification onto me

[Niall_Quinn]

You can't tell me that after what Watkins showed in 10 minutes any sane person wouldn't want to have more of that

Well, yes I can, because you actually specified 10 minutes. You can't come to any conclusions after 10 minutes. BUT, you can come to many conclusions given the cancer Pep ball has introduced into world football (apart from the South Americans). We all seem to be afflicted. Tip tap, tip tap, and so on. The death of football and all that. BUT, pace and directness unhinges Pep's bullshit. So you definitely have a chance against any "modern" team these days of you just do some obvious things. And one of those obvious things for England is playing a mobile centre forward, which is NOT Harry Kane. So could be Watkins, could be Toney, could be any number of PL players who fill that role. They'd all do a better job than the tourist who's secured his shirt based on politics and the media rather than performance on the pitch. But once those politics and media and, not to mention, corporate sponsorship, enters the fray, it must be difficult for a manager to bench the cash cow.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not even talking about Kane. Watkins is 5ft 11, not exactly a prodigious header of the ball. The claim is whether had we started with Watkins whether the game would have turned out differently, and I don’t think it would because there would have been less space for him to operate in. I’d have started with Toney and Watkins with the latter drifting left.

The very simple point is that a player with pace was an effective impact sub.

Kane doesn't get in the box to head the ball, so who cares what height Watkins is? You CANNOT have a passenger at this level. It eventually comes back to bite you in the rase. Kane has been a passenger throughout the tournament and that's easy enough to see for anyone lacking an agenda. Not saying he's not got a great record and has done the business many times before. But he's not doing it now, and now is what matters. So he should definitely be benched. But I think certain people would lose much cash if that happened, so it won't happen. Never forget, football as a sport died many decades ago. It's now a business. So we can talk about perfomances and tactics all we want, but these aren't the primary concerns. Fans will never be on the same page as the demons who own the game.

[Niall_Quinn]

Even that American woman who does the explanations of the decisions said before he went to look at the monitor that it wasn't a penalty. It was a very strange one. That said, we were much the better team in the first half and the Dutch had ages to get a second goal and barely threatened so I don't think overall they can feel that hard done by. It's like us against West Ham and Newcastle last year. Yes, it's possible that the ball was out before the goals were scored but we had ages to turn it round and didn't. If it had been a late penalty which won us the game then there's more cause for complaint, but it wasn't.

That was hilarious. Some yank tart piping up about our football. Couldn't make it up. I spotted that and thought, WTF is going on????

[Letters]

How are you defining “our” there?

[Mac76]

That was hilarious. Some yank tart piping up about our football. Couldn't make it up. I spotted that and thought, WTF is going on????

What's going on is that the world has moved on since the 1950s or whichever past decade your mind inhabits

And she talks more sense than any male British official I've ever heard

[Letters]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tv0ueEI4OBQ

[Mac76]

This is quite funny, I love the expression on the policeman's face :lol:

https://x.com/i/status/1811097255136387565

[HCZ_Reborn]

https://x.com/afcstuff/status/1811635197613342833?s=46&t=n1tnxEg6k_DvSqUkaQFrjw

Turns out Declan Rice has actually been trans all this time, as was clearly born a woman

Stunning and Brave

[Letters]

No-one likes beer. :lol:
Or at least kids pretend to so they can drink with "the lads" and then get used to it, but it's obviously horrible.

[Mac76]

I like beer

I like it a lot

[HCZ_Reborn]

No-one likes beer. :lol:
Or at least kids pretend to so they can drink with "the lads" and then get used to it, but it's obviously horrible.

If you genuinely don’t like Beer…maybe don’t drink it

I don’t like Real Ale, some of it smells like blocked drains and tastes like furniture polish. But I do genuinely like Guiness, I do like European Lagers

[Letters]

If you genuinely don’t like Beer…maybe don’t drink it
I don't.

My point is no kid out there starts drinking with his mates at whatever age they can get served and the first time they try beer think "wow, this is lovely". They might power through because of peer pressure and end up liking it, but it's pretty horrible stuff.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't.

My point is no kid out there starts drinking with his mates at whatever age they can get served and the first time they try beer think "wow, this is lovely". They might power through because of peer pressure and end up liking it, but it's pretty horrible stuff.

That’s a slightly different thing though. There’s loads of things I didn’t like as a kid that I like now….most kids start off with Alcopops. I wouldn’t have eaten Sushi or Sashimi as a kid (although that said I had raw squid last week and that was fucking awful), I didn’t like coffee and now I can’t get through the day without three of them of a morning. I didn’t like smoking the first time I did it but I smoke about 10-15 a day


Just a bit weird that Rice has never had a beer before the age of 25.

[Letters]

Just a bit weird that Rice has never had a beer before the age of 25.
That is a bit weird or maybe unusual is a better word.

Obviously tastes change as you get older. I used to hate parsnips, now I love them. But I never went through a phase of eating them even though I didn't like them to fit in with the cool parsnip gang.
What I'm talking about is the more forced change where kids drink beer which they obviously hate but keep doing it because of peer pressure. Over time they might come to like it, but I don't think that's many people's initial experience.

[Marc Overmars]

To be honest I started drinking at 15 and always enjoyed the taste of lager, don’t know why but I always found it easy to drink. Never been one for spirits or whiskey though which I can’t really stomach.

Kids these days are a bit different to our generation, I don’t think it’s really “cool” to get shitfaced anymore and I think they tend to have more varied interests than we did at that age. Also it’s a bloody expensive hobby too now.

This country has a pretty disturbing relationship with alcohol though in comparison to the rest of the world and I really hope my kids when they’re old enough stay clear of it.

[Mac76]

Many years ago I used to go the gym regularly at the centre in the Highbury area - there was a guy always in there who worked as a bouncer at the Highbury Garage - he used to let me in free sometimes, and I once got him to chuck out a guy who was annoying me :lol:

I was once chatting to him in the gym having seen him the previous weekend in the Garage and i said i'd been a bit pissed - he was teetotal and he said "what's drinking like - am I missing anything?"

I immediately imagined if i said 'yes', him starting to drink, giving up the gym and ending up living in the gutter so I said "no, nothing at all" :)

But for me, I do need a beer to unwind, at the end of a day working or being out it's just a nice relaxing thing to do.

I like certain lagers on a hot day or a Cobra or two with an indian meal, but also really like real ale and some spirits, especially a single malt Scotch :good:

But MO is right some people here can't behave themselves, we sometimes talk at the match how it would be nice to have a beer in our seats, but there's too many idiots who'd overdo it and act dumb tbh

If I had kids I'd do what the French do and educate them just to have a little wine watered down to start with and get into it sensibly - i think warning them off it altogether might have the opposite effect, given some kids like to be contrary to their folks, but what do I know...

[HCZ_Reborn]

To be honest I started drinking at 15 and always enjoyed the taste of lager, don’t know why but I always found it easy to drink. Never been one for spirits or whiskey though which I can’t really stomach.

Kids these days are a bit different to our generation, I don’t think it’s really “cool” to get shitfaced anymore and I think they tend to have more varied interests than we did at that age. Also it’s a bloody expensive hobby too now.

This country has a pretty disturbing relationship with alcohol though in comparison to the rest of the world and I really hope my kids when they’re old enough stay clear of it.

Well I think off licences and bars used to encourage binge drinking with happy hour special deals etc. Haven’t got absolutely properly drunk since my mid twenties because I actually don’t like being really drunk. I enjoy social drinking, but I tend to avoid mixing I will either stick to beer or wine and spirits…I do enjoy a nice scotch now and again.

If I go out with friends I’ll probably have about five or six pints and then call it a night

[Mac76]

If I go out with friends I’ll probably have about five or six pints and then call it a night

That's actually quite a lot, you know...

[HCZ_Reborn]

That's actually quite a lot, you know...

If I was doing it every day or even every weekend sure

Plus I don’t drink when I’m on my own. I know plenty of people who have a beer or a glass of wine to unwind but I’ve never felt the need

[Letters]

But MO is right some people here can't behave themselves, we sometimes talk at the match how it would be nice to have a beer in our seats, but there's too many idiots who'd overdo it and act dumb tbh.
It has been a feature of the Euros - lots of empty cups being thrown. Just generally the security has been poor, quite a lot of pitch invaders.

[HCZ_Reborn]

It has been a feature of the Euros - lots of empty cups being thrown. Just generally the security has been poor, quite a lot of pitch invaders.

I don’t think security has been poor, look at how quick that guy was to tackle Alvaro Morata :lol:

Seriously though, not the only thing up the creek in Deutschland. Apparently the Train services have been diabolical throughout the tournament, cancelled trains and delays of 2 hours or more in some cases. You wouldn’t expect that from the land of efficiency

Then again “at least the trains ran on time” is often misattributed to Nazi Germany and was actually said about Fascist Italy under Mussolini

[Marc Overmars]

If I had kids I'd do what the French do and educate them just to have a little wine watered down to start with and get into it sensibly - i think warning them off it altogether might have the opposite effect, given some kids like to be contrary to their folks, but what do I know...

I quite like the idea of my kids having their first drink with me. They’re going to do it anyway so I’d rather they were open about it and didn’t feel the need to shy away from drinking in front of me. I’d rather they were open about it than do what I did and nick cans from my dads garage and go to the park with the lads.

Just got to educate them on how shitty excessive drinking can be. Showing them clips from an average city centre on a Saturday night should hopefully put them off. :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

How are you defining “our” there?

No pads, no steroids.

[Niall_Quinn]

What's going on is that the world has moved on since the 1950s or whichever past decade your mind inhabits

And she talks more sense than any male British official I've ever heard

Go away soy boy.

[WMUG]

I don’t think security has been poor, look at how quick that guy was to tackle Alvaro Morata :lol:

Seriously though, not the only thing up the creek in Deutschland. Apparently the Train services have been diabolical throughout the tournament, cancelled trains and delays of 2 hours or more in some cases. You wouldn’t expect that from the land of efficiency

Then again “at least the trains ran on time” is often misattributed to Nazi Germany and was actually said about Fascist Italy under Mussolini

Having lived there I can tell you, the myth of German efficiency is the most effective piece of national propaganda ice ever encountered.

The trains are routinely delayed by about 20-30 minutes, the bureaucracy is labyrinthine and the cultural attitudes are so inflexible that if people will look at you as though you've 2 heads if you dare to ask at 2pm whether you can sit at a table that's reserved from 6pm.

[Mac76]

I quite like the idea of my kids having their first drink with me. They’re going to do it anyway so I’d rather they were open about it and didn’t feel the need to shy away from drinking in front of me. I’d rather they were open about it than do what I did and nick cans from my dads garage and go to the park with the lads.

Just got to educate them on how shitty excessive drinking can be. Showing them clips from an average city centre on a Saturday night should hopefully put them off. :lol:

Yeah that seems like the best way :D

[Mac76]

Go away soy boy.

**WHOOP WHOOP inaccurate stereotyping alert**

[HCZ_Reborn]

Having lived there I can tell you, the myth of German efficiency is the most effective piece of national propaganda ice ever encountered.

The trains are routinely delayed by about 20-30 minutes, the bureaucracy is labyrinthine and the cultural attitudes are so inflexible that if people will look at you as though you've 2 heads if you dare to ask at 2pm whether you can sit at a table that's reserved from 6pm.

All the female service staff I’ve encountered in Germany over the age of 40 all seem like league of gentleman characters. Especially asking where the loos were (enschuldigung wo ist die badezimmer) in a service station near Aachen, she looked like Mark Gattis and had a deeper voice than me

[HCZ_Reborn]

So looking towards tomorrow, it’s one of those curious things in that we are the underdog despite having the better individual players in most areas

Walker better than Carvajal, Stones better than Laporte, Both Bellingham and Foden better than Olmo and Ruiz, Saka better than Yamal and despite having a very poor tournament Kane is both a lot better than and has outscored Morata.

Though that said
Simon is better than Pickford, Le Normand better than Guehi, Rodri better than Rice and Cucurella/Williams better than anything we play on the left


The main problem is we are a hot, ill put together mess where the players don’t trust each other and are constantly looking back over their shoulder. A competent coach would I have to say be able to win easily tomorrow with some of the talent we have, wear down the Spanish press and then take them apart when they tire.

To do that takes a team that is confident with every player around them and I just haven’t seen that. The positive is that Spain will go for the jugular from the off and if somehow we are able to survive this marauding they will become leggy. Even the unambitious French made them look incredibly immobile for their goal. Too often attacks break down and we are too afraid to press teams into giving us back the ball in their own third…high risk but we absolutely have to be prepared to do that tomorrow night (especially if the scores are level in the second half)

Though frankly with Southgate, if we do win it will be a fluke rather than winning a tactical battle

[Mac76]

if we do win it will be a fluke rather than winning a tactical battle

I think we will and it will be exactly that

If he starts with Watkins all is forgiven - even if we lose - but of course Watkins is now a "super-sub" whose late goal apparently proves, not disproves, the (foolish) theory that starting with someone who can't move, can't think, can't hold their position and can't keep their weight down is actually a good tactic

by the same logic, Arsenal shoud have kept Van Persie or Henry permanently on the bench and started Iain Dowie up front instead

[Letters]

Honestly, you guys.
You’re preemptively declaring it luck if we win so you don’t have to change your narrative that Southgate has just fluked his way to a World Cup semifinal and now two Euro finals in a row.
He’s got good players but we’ve had good players before and not done anywhere near this well.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Honestly, you guys.
You’re preemptively declaring it luck if we win so you don’t have to change your narrative that Southgate has just fluked his way to a World Cup semifinal and now two Euro finals in a row.
He’s got good players but we’ve had good players before and not done anywhere near this well.

Well at least I’m not comparing Kane to Iain Dowie

The fact is a) we haven’t had the level of quality that we do have now. The nearest we came to it was under Sven and he also miserably failed to take advantage of it, but his quarters finals were against Brazil and twice against Portugal. Southgate has won three semi finals - against Sweden, Ukraine and a pel shootout against Swiss. So b) To deny that he’s been incredibly lucky with the teams he’s been drawn against in knockout matches is a clear denying of reality.

[Letters]

a is an opinion, not a fact.
To deny there’s been some luck with draws would be silly, but not long before Southgate we lost to sodding Iceland.

[Mac76]

a is an opinion, not a fact.
To deny there’s been some luck with draws would be silly, but not long before Southgate we lost to sodding Iceland.

You mean the Iceland we lost to again just before this tournament? :haha:

[HCZ_Reborn]

a is an opinion, not a fact.
To deny there’s been some luck with draws would be silly, but not long before Southgate we lost to sodding Iceland.

If you look at 1990 and 1996 when we got to the semis against Germany and compare that squad to today and don’t think this squad is vastly superior then I really don’t know what to tell you.

[Mac76]

If you look at 1990 and 1996 when we got to the semis against Germany and compare that squad to today and don’t think this squad is vastly superior then I really don’t know what to tell you.

Tbh the best players are physically and technicaly better than anyone 30 years ago but the point that applies to every nation -Slovenia would probably trash that England side of '96

The point is that to not convincingly beat the lower-grade sides we've faced, while demonstrating a clear formation and positive tactics, allied to picking the wrong side, shows Southgate has failed to make anything like the best of what he has

The Dutch are the only really decent team we faced and he played a better formation and finally gave Watkins, albeit belatedly, a chance to show what he can do

[HCZ_Reborn]

Tbh the best players are physically and technicaly better than anyone 30 years ago but the point that applies to every nation -Slovenia would probably trash that England side of '96

The point is that to not convincingly beat the lower-grade sides we've faced, while demonstrating a clear formation and positive tactics, allied to picking the wrong side, shows Southgate has failed to make anything like the best of what he has

The Dutch are the only really decent team we faced and he played a better formation and finally gave Watkins, albeit belatedly, a chance to show what he can do

Again when comparing quality you’re talking about quality relative to the teams around you at the time


In 1990 there were several teams better than England including the German team we went out to on penalties


In 1996 a lot of teams underperformed, we thrashed the Dutch at Wembley despite them having a stronger side than us

[Mac76]

You won't get any argument from me that Venables and Robson weren't much better managers

[Letters]

You mean the Iceland we lost to again just before this tournament? :haha:

In a meaningless friendly.
I have never cared about friendlies. Because they’re friendlies. And thus meaningless.

[Letters]

If you look at 1990 and 1996 when we got to the semis against Germany and compare that squad to today and don’t think this squad is vastly superior then I really don’t know what to tell you.
Well firstly there’s no objective measure of quality.
And secondly comparing across generations in sport is always tricky.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Well firstly there’s no objective measure of quality.
And secondly comparing across generations in sport is always tricky.

That was covered in another reply

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Southgate isn’t better than what’s come before him, he has a better squad than a lot of the coaches that have come before him, he’s been incredibly lucky at times and the football being played is atrocious at times.
I’d love us to win tonight if it meant that he’d step down afterwards, hell I’d be in favour of giving him a knighthood but yeah I want him gone whatever the result tonight and I hope he makes the choice to go which is the choice he should have made after the Qatar World Cup.

[Letters]

I don’t think it’s unreasonable to say that Southgate isn’t better than what’s come before him
That isn't unreasonable. I don't think he's an exceptional manager. But I agree with MO above when he said that what he has done is foster a real team spirit in the camp which shouldn't be understated. I read some stuff about the psychological work he's done around penalty shootouts.
Luck plays its part in football, but I don't accept that a World Cup semi-final and two Euros finals in a row has come about by dumb luck. Or that it's because we suddenly have this exceptional squad.

I'd love us to win regardless of what it means. And I think it's probably time to move on either way. But spoiler alert: we're not going to be sweeping all before us under the next guy either.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That isn't unreasonable. I don't think he's an exceptional manager. But I agree with MO above when he said that what he has done is foster a real team spirit in the camp which shouldn't be understated. I read some stuff about the psychological work he's done around penalty shootouts.
Luck plays its part in football, but I don't accept that a World Cup semi-final and two Euros finals in a row has come about by dumb luck. Or that it's because we suddenly have this exceptional squad.

I'd love us to win regardless of what it means. And I think it's probably time to move on either way. But spoiler alert: we're not going to be sweeping all before us under the next guy either.

I genuinely think the potential is there that England could well have the best squad in world football (assuming the right players are picked) that then needs to translate to creating the best team. It wasn’t just an act of hubris on behalf of the bookies that made us favourites for this tournament prior to it starting…I thought the French squad was the best but I have to say I think they have largely squandered their potential…..this is a team that could and in my view should have won the last two European championships and the World Cup. No favourites don’t always win but they’ve been comfortably the best team in the world in terms of individual talent for the last eight years.

If we win tonight (I don’t think we will) I see it as a platform for the World Cup in two years time. And yes I would see it as a waste of our potential if we don’t win the World Cup in 2026 because I think with a competent manager I don’t think there is a national side that would be better than ours not France, not Spain, not Germany and certainly not Brazil or Argentina.

I don’t think the same thing could be said of the so-called Golden generation. There was far more strength in depth in international football then, and the players I don’t think are the same level as many of the ones we have now

It’s not even really about Southgate then, I think there’s lots of things he can rightly take credit for and certainly was a stabilising effect after we were really drifting for years but there’s no room for sentiment. Football is an ephemeral sport, Messi winning the World Cup at the last is not usually how it works…you have a window of opportunity and if you don’t take it, it passes you by like it did with Portugal when they had their golden generation of Figo, Rui Costa, Conceicao etc and The Belgians missed their chance too

[Mac76]

Southgate has a fundamental choice today, show he has cojones and drops Kane for a better forward who will give a much better outlet for our attacking midfield, or play him despite all the evidence to the contrary and hope we pub it again, but if he doesn''t change it and we do win there will always be an asterisk against the win for those who want their team not just to win, but win playing watchable football and making the most of the talent available

[McNamara That Ghost...]

It's time for disgusting winning football now. Fuck being gallant losers again.

Obviously if England can play with great football then fine but that isn't happening now.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Can’t remember the last time we were gallant losers truth be told

Anyway Shaw in for Trippier

Le Normand and Carvajal in for Nacho and Navas


No surprises

[Mac76]

Looks like it's the Dog and Duck again

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spain: Simon, Cucurella, Laporte, Le Normand, Carvajal, Fabian Ruiz, Rodri, Willians, Olmo, Yamal, Morata.
Subs: Raya, Baena, Nacho, Grimaldo, Fermin Lopez, Joselu, Merino, Jesus Navas, Oyarzabal, Remiro, Torres, Vivian, Zubimendi.

England Pickford, Walker, Stones, Guehi, Saka, Mainoo, Rice, Shaw, Foden, Bellingham, Kane.
Subs: Alexander-Arnold, Trippier, Ramsdale, Konsa, Dunk, Gallagher, Toney, Gordon, Watkins, Bowen, Eze, Gomez, Henderson, Palmer, Wharton.

[Letters]

I hope we win tbh

[Mac76]

All the pundits (BBC and ITV) being a bunch of hypocrits and acting like they hadn't (righrly) been heavily criticising Southgate earlier on

[Letters]

All the pundits (BBC and ITV) being a bunch of hypocrits and acting like they hadn't (righrly) been heavily criticising Southgate earlier on

Is it hypocritical? They criticised him during the group stage because we were hopeless.
But obviously he deserves credit for us getting to the final

[McNamara That Ghost...]

England keeping the ball. :lol:

[HCZ_Reborn]

Fuck me Walker, Williams gets a yard on him

Oh he’s injured. I take it back then

[Letters]

Brilliant by Stones

[Letters]

Stones "trying a Dixon" og but missed the target

[HCZ_Reborn]

Brilliant by Stones

I’m assuming you mean the block on Williams rather than the blind backwards lob back to Pickford

[Letters]

I’m assuming you mean the block on Williams rather than the blind backwards lob back to Pickford

:lol:

I do.

[Mac76]

Kane rightly booked let's hope it encourages Southgate to sub him at HT

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Kane gets a yellow.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Dani Olmo booked now

[Letters]

That was good refereeing. Tried to play advantage but it didn't work out so he brought it back.

[HCZ_Reborn]

That was good refereeing. Tried to play advantage but it didn't work out so he brought it back.

Letexier done ok, let the game flow where possible

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Rodri is ridiculous.

[Letters]

Decent effort by Foden, given how he had to stretch for it.
Easily saved

[Letters]

0-0 HT

So far, so competent.

[Mac76]

As i suspected we're containing Spain, pretty even so far, but still so painful seeing how limited we are up front without Watkins or Toney on the pitch

[HCZ_Reborn]

So really gone largely as I would have expected. Spain have expended less energy than I would have expected, we’ve done well defensively and when attacks have broken down we’ve got back well. Shaw has marshalled Yamal well.

This has been tentative from both sides, Spain not wanting to overcommit…us being too cautious coming forward.

[Mac76]

Watching on itv, some good half time assessment tbf

[Letters]

Watching on itv

Oh you're the one.

[Mac76]

…us being too cautious coming forward.

It's not about caution, as both BBC and ITV are saying, Kane is preventing us from having an outlet in attack

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Rodri off, Zubimendi on

[Mac76]

Rodri subbed, that's massive

[HCZ_Reborn]

Zubimendi on for Rodri. Big blow for Spain

[Letters]

1-0 Spain

Shit

[HCZ_Reborn]

Shit. The space Williams had

[McNamara That Ghost...]

1-0 Williams!

[Mac76]

Good move by Spain

Wr need a striker on now

[Letters]

Shit. The space Williams had

Innit. We've been marshallng them so well. Then they just give him that much space.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ugh fucking Walker

[Letters]

Getting pwned now, as the kids are saying. Or used to, I dunno.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Getting battered.

[Letters]

It's a bit Ivan Drago vs Apollo Creed at the moment :(

[Letters]

Kane :wave:

Watkins :bow:

[Mac76]

K**t off :yippee:

Now fuck off and don't play for England again

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Kane off, Watkins on.

[Mac76]

Kane :wave:

Watkins :bow:

:gp:

[Letters]

Bellingham wide.
Loads better though. Great work by Foden.
Come on, England!

[HCZ_Reborn]

Cucurella is a big load of shit :lol:

[Letters]

Eek! Great save by Pickford from Yamal.

[Letters]

Mainoo off, Palmer on.

[Letters]

Oles already. Cunts.

[Letters]

1-1! PALMER!

PICK THAT ONE OUT YOU CUNTS!

[Mac76]

A player who should have been on at the start does it again

This is so embarrassing for Southgate

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Whoa Palmer!

[Letters]

Player who should have been on at the start does it again

This is so embarrassing for Southgate

Oh do fuck off.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Oh do fuck off.

Don’t engage

[Letters]

Don’t engage

:good:

[Mac76]

You don't think players who can score goals should be in the starting lineup? :shrug:

[Letters]

Seaman! Seaman! :bow:

[Letters]

Brilliant save by Pickford. He's kept us in this.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Pickford saves again!

[Letters]

It wasn't a brilliant save actually, it was hit right at him.
We got away with that one. Either side and that's a goal.

[Letters]

Williams is properly brilliant.

[Letters]

Ah shit. 2-1 Spain :(

[McNamara That Ghost...]

2-1 Spain!

[Mac76]

Good move, what a pass from Cucurella, didn't think i'd ever say that... :l

[Letters]

Yamal off as it's past his bedtime

[Letters]

Bugger.

[Mac76]

Bloody hell, so close

[HCZ_Reborn]

Good move, what a pass from Cucurella, didn't think i'd ever say that... :l

Great defending from Cucurella is a line you will probably never hear

[Letters]

Cucurella dead, after Sake breathed on him.

[Letters]

It did not come home.

Bugger.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Spain 2-1 England, FT!

[Mac76]

Oh well, the best team won

Captained by a serial loser, managed by a serial loser, what did we expect

[Letters]

They've been the best team in the tournament. Won every game in the tournament.
We were pretty good tonight, Spain were just...better. :shrug:

[Mac76]

One thing's for sure, with a decent manager next time with the squad we'll have in two years should be an exciting proposition

[Mac76]

Chiellini can't help laughing :lol:

[Letters]

60 years of hurt...

:(

[HCZ_Reborn]

Southgate needs to go now. You can’t win a game against a team like that by safety first. I hope with him being a decent guy that he realises this and chooses to stand down. Spain were the better side so can have no complaints about the result, but when Palmer got the equaliser they were rattled and we just stood off and became passive again.
The result could have been the same, but in my mind it’s shameful not to go for it.

[HCZ_Reborn]

Player ratings

Pickford 7 - Made some good saves to prevent the scoreline from being worse


Shaw 7 - Started well and kept Yamal on a tight leash


Stones 6 - Little avant garde at times but was one of the few players prepared to play out


Guehi 5.5 - Hilariously out of his depth


Walker 5 - Often lacking in positional discipline


Mainoo 5 - Didn’t make much of an impact on the game


Rice 6 - Did well defensively, but often a bit careless in possession


Bellingham 6 - Forced wide a lot, little chance to make an impact


Foden 5 - Returned to being the player he was for most of the tournament


Saka 6 - Great run and cut inside to set Palmer up for equaliser but didn’t see enough of the ball to have an impact, often had to wait for Walker on the overlap


Kane 3.5 - I don’t know if he was carrying a knock or whether he’d developed a curious phobia of penalty boxes. Despite what some desperately obsessed individuals might claim you don’t become Englands top all time scorer by being rubbish…and he managed three in this tournament despite being rubbish in this tournament.



Subs


Palmer 7.5 - Not just because of the goal but this was his best appearance from the bench, sharp and dynamic…gave the ball away couple of times but again was situated too deep because of over cautious manager


Watkins 6 - Did not have the impact he had against the Netherlands


Toney - Not worth giving a rating to

[Mac76]

I never said he was always rubbish but he's not right any more, we have a creative team which needs a better outlet than that

[Marc Overmars]

The better team by far won.

England for whatever reason just don’t seem to have the capability to keep the ball with any composure. I was more gutted after the Italy final where as this game panned out how how a lot of people suspected it would. We just didn’t play with any confidence and like most of the tournament were just relying on some individual moments of brilliance.

Southgate has to go. I respect the work he’s done but this group of players need more inspiration because in terms of ability they’re not far off but are just missing a spark.

[Letters]

I never said he was always rubbish but he's not right any more, we have a creative team which needs a better outlet than that

He had a poor tournament. I don’t think he was fully fit, his season in Germany shows he’s still “got it”. But the World Cup is 2 years away and at his age he’s only going to decline now. We do need to look at other options for that one.

[Mac76]

ofc the bad news is apparenty the FA want Southgate to stay and he's sufficiently lacking in self-awareness that he might well do so

If he does that's two more years wasted which would be highly damaging

this time it's ok, as we had a young squad and they all have gained useful expeience, but if it's Southgate again they will continue to underperform and some players won't get the kind of game time they should

Also England need Ben White which means Souhtgate and Johnny Vegas going

[Letters]

I don't think Southgate is a really top manager, but he's got us to a World Cup semi-final and two Euro finals in a row - having never been in one in our history before. Yesterday was our first ever final on foreign soil. He's failed to land a trophy but we've only one of those in our history, he's not failed where others have succeeded. He's actually done better than every other manager in my lifetime.
I don't buy that we suddenly have this exceptional squad which should be sweeping all before us. Spain were clearly the best team in the tournament and they didn't completely hammer us, we played well last night and stood up to them. The group games were a shambles and we were certainly lucky against Slovakia, but we played well after that. Teams sometimes play their way in to a tournament and it felt like we did that.
I don't know if Southgate can take us any further but if we do get a new manager then after a honeymoon period in 2 years time we will fail again and everyone will be saying he's shit too :shrug:
I've seen this shit for decades now.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I have to say if Southgate was going to go he’d have gone already, I think even he realises that staying he intends to stay would have gone down with the media like it raining flaming bags of dog shit

He’s hoping for things to die down and then announce he intends to stay. Which makes him delusional or at least fucking selfish and the FA negligent and hugely incompetent….blazer wearing cunts who prefer all the diversity vibes to actually winning things

[HCZ_Reborn]

I don't think Southgate is a really top manager, but he's got us to a World Cup semi-final and two Euro finals in a row - having never been in one in our history before. Yesterday was our first ever final on foreign soil. He's failed to land a trophy but we've only one of those in our history, he's not failed where others have succeeded. He's actually done better than every other manager in my lifetime.
I don't buy that we suddenly have this exceptional squad which should be sweeping all before us. Spain were clearly the best team in the tournament and they didn't completely hammer us, we played well last night and stood up to them. The group games were a shambles and we were certainly lucky against Slovakia, but we played well after that. Teams sometimes play their way in to a tournament and it felt like we did that.
I don't know if Southgate can take us any further but if we do get a new manager then after a honeymoon period in 2 years time we will fail again and everyone will be saying he's shit too :shrug:
I've seen this shit for decades now.

With no offence what you buy or don’t buy is not especially relevant. Players like Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka are better players than most if not all international teams have at their disposal. This isn’t an empty boast, Spain were good last night but in many ways it’s a team with a lot of average. Fabian Ruiz for example is no where near the standard England have in midfield nor is Dani Olmo. Le Normand and Laporte are players that picked to play for Spain because they had no chance of getting near the French squad. Carvajal is old, Cucurella can’t defend and at club level isn’t especially great going forward.
To put it plainly, this was a beatable team who we made look better than they are. They’ve had a fantastic tournament but in a way they’ve lucked out from a general nadir in the quality of international football. This won’t be a team that wins or I suspect even competes for the World Cup in two years.


Your argument rests on the basis that of the boast that England would have won X if they had better coach etc. And I absolutely agree with you that this was an empty boast, I’d never previously gone into an international tournament thinking England were likely winners. But as I said to you in a previous post, Bookies don’t base their odds on blind jingoism there was clearly some thinking behind making us favourites for the tournament.

Now for me it wasn’t just the tactics, I think some of the squad selection were pretty rum….picking Crystal Palace players off the back of a few good games at the back end of the season for example

Guehi nor Eze are good enough to be internationals.


Nothing is guaranteed in life, replacing Southgate won’t guarantee us the World Cup….but it’s the nearest thing to guaranteed that we won’t win it if he stays on. And that I think would be an unpardonable indictment against the FA

[HCZ_Reborn]

The ten minutes or so after Palmer’s equaliser encapsulates not just Southgate’s time as manager but the situation we face going forward. Spain were rattled, there’s no guarantee that we would have won if we’d risked taking the game to them but we wouldn’t have died wondering.

There’s a pool of talent in this country that is good enough to win the World Cup, arguably I think has a stronger case to make for its ability to do so than any other individual country. That’s a guarantee of nothing, but what I cannot abide or accept is for us to never know the answer because we play it safe with a coach that also plays it safe

[Mac76]

With no offence what you buy or don’t buy is not especially relevant. Players like Bellingham, Foden, Rice, Saka are better players than most if not all international teams have at their disposal. This isn’t an empty boast, Spain were good last night but in many ways it’s a team with a lot of average. Fabian Ruiz for example is no where near the standard England have in midfield nor is Dani Olmo. Le Normand and Laporte are players that picked to play for Spain because they had no chance of getting near the French squad. Carvajal is old, Cucurella can’t defend and at club level isn’t especially great going forward.
To put it plainly, this was a beatable team who we made look better than they are. They’ve had a fantastic tournament but in a way they’ve lucked out from a general nadir in the quality of international football. This won’t be a team that wins or I suspect even competes for the World Cup in two years.


Your argument rests on the basis that of the boast that England would have won X if they had better coach etc. And I absolutely agree with you that this was an empty boast, I’d never previously gone into an international tournament thinking England were likely winners. But as I said to you in a previous post, Bookies don’t base their odds on blind jingoism there was clearly some thinking behind making us favourites for the tournament.

Now for me it wasn’t just the tactics, I think some of the squad selection were pretty rum….picking Crystal Palace players off the back of a few good games at the back end of the season for example

Guehi nor Eze are good enough to be internationals.


Nothing is guaranteed in life, replacing Southgate won’t guarantee us the World Cup….but it’s the nearest thing to guaranteed that we won’t win it if he stays on. And that I think would be an unpardonable indictment against the FA

largely agree although I don't really understand your regularly singling out of Guehi, I thought he was perfectly reasonable - admittedly I'd have preferred Konsa but that's becausee he's just a bit better and perhaps slightly more self-assured, not because Guehi's terrible

I had no problem at the time with his picking Eze but in retrospect he's the type of player you have to build a team around and that was never going to happen, plus he looked a little out of his depth, Southgate should have tried him out a bit more beforehand, but that's the problem when he's obsessed with certain players

and had he been given game time I think Wharton could have been England's surprise player of the tournament, or maybe not, we'll never know now

[Marc Overmars]

It felt like watching a PL team against a Championship side to me. We weren’t bad and had plenty of endeavour as we always do but demonstrated zero quality to trouble Spain. We could barely string 3 or 4 passes together before losing the ball and as a result couldn’t produce any decent passages of play, none of those players wanted to take responsibility and played every ball as safe as they could. The goal Palmer scored felt completely out of the blue and after that we just continued to plod along hoping for something to happen without ever really turning the screw.

This is a very capable squad but they don’t play with the same confidence and composure you see week in week out for their clubs. There has to be a change of coach now because you don’t want to waste anymore opportunities while the landscape of international football is the way it is currently.

[Mac76]

It felt like watching a PL team against a Championship side to me. We weren’t bad and had plenty of endeavour as we always do but demonstrated zero quality to trouble Spain. We could barely string 3 or 4 passes together before losing the ball and as a result couldn’t produce any decent passages of play, none of those players wanted to take responsibility and played every ball as safe as they could. The goal Palmer scored felt completely out of the blue and after that we just continued to plod along hoping for something to happen without ever really turning the screw.

This is a very capable squad but they don’t play with the same confidence and composure you see week in week out for their clubs. There has to be a change of coach now because you don’t want to waste anymore opportunities while the landscape of international football is the way it is currently.

I do agree, Southgate took the first step in creating a better team atmosphere and giving it values but he can't create a winning mentality, the baton needs to be passed

[Letters]

With no offence what you buy or don’t buy is not especially relevant.
You say this as if I'm saying I don't buy that 2+2 = 4. You keep stating opinion and claiming it's fact.
We do have some exceptional players, sure. But good enough that we should be expecting to be winning tournaments like this? That's the bit I don't buy.
We should be contenders, but we were - we got to the final.
Spain were the best team in the tournament, they won every game. I'm not saying they were unbeatable but they were clearly better throughout the tournament and on the night.


Your argument rests on the basis that of the boast that England would have won X if they had better coach etc. And I absolutely agree with you that this was an empty boast
So what are we arguing about then? Bookies base their odds on multiple factors, we were clearly contenders and that makes our odds lower than most. But betting patterns are a factor too and a lot of England fans excitedly believing it was coming home also lowers the odds. No-one I spoke to actually thought we were favourites.


Nothing is guaranteed in life, replacing Southgate won’t guarantee us the World Cup….but it’s the nearest thing to guaranteed that we won’t win it if he stays on. And that I think would be an unpardonable indictment against the FA
I think it is time for Southgate to move on. But having watched England for decades now I am pretty convinced that we will fail again in two years and then we'll be having the same conversation about "if only we had a better manager". I've seen that conversation going round and round for decades now. The actual truth is we're not that good - we're not that bad either, and I'd agree we do have a better squad now than we've had for a while. But we do seem to constantly convince ourselves that we're entitled to be winning these trophies despite our entire history showing that we really aren't.

[Mac76]

I think it is time for Southgate to move on. But having watched England for decades now I am pretty convinced that we will fail again in two years and then we'll be having the same conversation about "if only we had a better manager". I've seen that conversation going round and round for decades now. The actual truth is we're not that good - we're not that bad either, and I'd agree we do have a better squad now than we've had for a while. But we do seem to constantly convince ourselves that we're entitled to be winning these trophies despite our entire history showing that we really aren't.

I think that's a bit fatalistic - England has won a major tournament (albeit with help from a linesman) and pubbed their way to a few finals so it's not unreasonable that, with some very good players at our disposal, a bit more of a winning mentality plus a fair throw of the dice we could do it.

ofc many teams underperformed this summer - if any one or more of Germany, Italy and France get theri act together for the WC then that immediately will make it more challenging, plus we surely can't hope to have such a jammy draw again but that's why we need to play to our potential

For me though as much as it's about wanting to win, I just want to be able to cheer on an Engalnd team wholeheartedly again, something I've not been able to do because A) the football's largely been so dire and B) the team's been full of spud/ex-spud shite

[HCZ_Reborn]

largely agree although I don't really understand your regularly singling out of Guehi, I thought he was perfectly reasonable - admittedly I'd have preferred Konsa but that's becausee he's just a bit better and perhaps slightly more self-assured, not because Guehi's terrible

I had no problem at the time with his picking Eze but in retrospect he's the type of player you have to build a team around and that was never going to happen, plus he looked a little out of his depth, Southgate should have tried him out a bit more beforehand, but that's the problem when he's obsessed with certain players

and had he been given game time I think Wharton could have been England's surprise player of the tournament, or maybe not, we'll never know now

When it comes to top level football he is terrible, at the level we aspire to you simply can’t afford to carry a player who is totally uncomfortable with the ball to feet. He’s hard working, but he doesn’t read the game well enough to make the interceptions he should and it affects those around him, Rice constantly looking over his shoulder because the trust is not there….it affected Stones as well.
You might say to me well if Southgate stays it could be worse we could have Maguire back, but it’s much of a muchness. At least with Maguire, Stones has played with him enough so he knows how to cover for his deficiencies.


Guehi is a solid defender for a mid table premier league team. That’s what he should have stayed


Eze is quick, strong and hardworking but lacks a footballing brain which makes him only slightly more useful than Gervinho. As you say he looked totally out of his depth, I think if you’re talking about friendlies or qualifiers it definitely makes sense to pick a player like that to see how he works out…but for a big tournament like that you just don’t take a wildcard like that.