Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey, i got called a wenger apologist when i have questioned (and still do) how much money this club actually has to spend, when you factor in how obscene transfer wages and player wages are in the modern game?.
What does that even have to do with AW's competence as manager would be my response?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Sorry, bud! But why did the conversation have to go down that route for this thread?

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I dunno, but I was responding to a post someone else made, so why don't you ask them?

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Because people on this board are unable to think in shades of grey

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Innit. It completely baffles me.

Most people are more anti-Wenger than pro these days but if you're not calling Wenger every name under the sun you're defending him to the hilt no matter what happens.

I can understand it a bit more in the heat of the moment during or immediately after a game but in the cold light of day it's pretty weird.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Why has this thread gone on attack other posters for their views? This has been done to death and it’s the same culprits that keep dragging it up. (LDG, Letters and NQ).


Whenever someone talks about the frustrating issues we see each season, you guys take issue with the poster or the harsh words for Wenger instead of the real crux of the issue. Threads get bogged down in this back and forth abuse, i.e calling fans ‘filth’, ‘twats’ sarcy comments as usual and it’s ironic that these same posters are calling for the abuse of Wenger to stop. Nobody on this thread has gone as far as that when talking about Wenger.


Back to IBK’s original post, the question is, has Wenger been left behind tactically or is it more of a case of injuries and training. Personally, I feel it’s both and we’ve seen the same issues over the past 9 years so I doubt things will change. He won’t buy to bolster the numbers and even when we’ve seen the effects fatigue can have on the squad, he won’t rotate and sub players when exhausted. It’s a catch 22 and we’re stuck in limbo with him.

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:gp: Other than perhaps OTT emotional reactions on match/post match threads, I have simply not seen any prevelance on here of the anti Wenger 'bile' that some posters take exception to. I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views. I said on another thread that there seems to be a 'default' position amongst some Gooners of not seeing the wood for the trees when it comes to Wenger. This season it has been most marked in the debate about whether there has been any real improvement in this Arsenal side - and frankly - in relation to our results and performances - the sceptics have been proved right.


Personally, I have always tried to look at all angles of our team's performance - and while I have never to my knowledge indulged in infantile over-exaggeration, lately I have taken the view that far from being unjustly criticised, Wenger has had an easy ride from Gooners. He managed our transition to the Emirates, and in the first half of his reign he brought us success. But I think that for him personally, he has taken as much from Arsenal as he has given the club - perhaps even gaining more personal advantage than the advantages that he has given Arsenal and its fans.

The bottom line is that no matter how we have become used to dressing it up, the hallmark of a top manager is not balancing the books; making profits from player sales, or ensuring a sound financial footing. That is the job of a successful managing director, and should not really come into the reckoning for a football coach. One of Wenger's biggest deceptions has been to claim credit for a side of the club that he simply should not be involved in.

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?

@ PNG - of course there are elements of footballing approach and injuries/training to blame for our predicament. But I just wonder whether the real criticism of Wenger should be the training/fitness methods that consistently rob him of the players essential to make his style of play work rather than his 'tactical' naivity. At the end of the day the distinction may be irrelevant, because our results over the season speak for themselves. But for debating purposes it is interesting to ask whether the manager's way of playing football is flawed in itself, or flawed because it only works with a level of player that is beyond his ability to keep fit for a season?

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Originally Posted by Letters

Innit. It completely baffles me.

Most people are more anti-Wenger than pro these days but if you're not calling Wenger every name under the sun you're defending him to the hilt no matter what happens.

I can understand it a bit more in the heat of the moment during or immediately after a game but in the cold light of day it's pretty weird.

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I agree with everything you say other than Innit, that kind of vernacular is not becoming of a moderator

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Where are the unreasonable posts in this thread? You’ve missed the point of the thread. IBK is shifting the focus and asking whether it’s the training and lack of first team back up that’s the problem and maybe some of us misjudging his tactical failings.



This post shows how off the mark you are, especially that last part about the training and fitness because that’s what the thread is about. :doh:

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I

Wasn't

Responding

Directly

to

IBK

I mentioned him as a reasonable poster in comparison to assholes that spend their whole time moaning about Wenger. I then gave examples of what these assholes tend to post. That qualifies the thread title - I'm saying some of the doubters are wrong beyond question because they haven't even managed to frame a rational argument.

I think you caught a reflection. Haven't a clue what you mean by "mark" - go on then, what's the correct opinion I should have?

The failure to buy a proper striker at the start and at the crunch mid season period is a fatal flaw in Wengers approach. Plus his reluctance/unwillingness to get the best out of Podolski. Its all been beatern to death though, The only issue is will anything change if he is still here next season?

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Originally Posted by IBK

Anyways - back to the main issue of the thread. The reason I posted was that I have become convinced that Wenger's tactical approach, and the way that he has set up his teams has become outdated - and his footballing weaknesses are becoming increasingly easy for a new breed of bold young tactically astute managers to exploit. But having seen the extraordinary injury stats that I have posted, not to mention the huge and obvious difference that our key returning players have made I wonder whether Wenger is quite as far behind his rivals in this respect as it might have seemed. Put another way - with our 3 best players - Ramsey; Walcott and Ozil fit for even 90% of the season, would Wenger's methods have won us the league? It is fair to point out that this is what Chelsea; Liverpool, and even Everton have enjoyed - while Citeh, even though they have had key players injured for parts of the season, are (or should be) basically immune from the effect of injuries. Citeh away aside (and even then, we scored 3 goals against them), none of our shocking results this season have been with even 2 of our 3 best players on the pitch?

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I posted this earlier in response to your thread opener but it got lost amongst other stuff.

I think the results away to the top four this seasons says it all when it comes to the discrepancy between his ability now and the teams ahead of us. Those hammerings were purely down to lack of preparation in terms of our set-up and approach. Of course, we had personnel missing for some of those matches but that still does not allow for how open we left ourselves. In fact, looking back at our record against the top four across the past few years shows us that in the games against the better prepared teams, we come up short.

You can roll out a group of good players like ours and let them play their game against outside the top six and we'll come up trumps on most occasions. Better players can generally figure out a way to beat those not on their level. Put them up against a team with players on an equal footing and you need to find that extra edge to give you an advantage.

He won't change his approach to games nor will he change our training methods at his age. He is still a good manager, just not good enough for what we need anymore.

On a seperate topic, was it necessary to take out people's hearts and then display it to the gaping public when you defeated your oponents on Mortal Kombat?

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Originally Posted by IBK

I also feel that some posters' reactions to Zimm are well OTT. He is guilty of nothing more than pessimism as to Wenger's methods, and has never made an 'anti Wenger' statement without backing it up with an explanation for his views.

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Oh come on!

We won 3-0 away at Hull, we should be winning up there but we did and it was a much improved performance than some of late, makes me wonder what could have been had Ramsey stayed fit (don't think we'd have won the league but we'd have been closer)

Anyway, someone posts the post-match interview with Wenger in which he was asked about the supposed foul by Arteta. He gave a completely reasonable response about how he didn't think it was a foul (which the MoTD pundits concurred with) and said it was 70 yards from goal anyway. Zimm's response:

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The guy makes me laugh, re the supposed foul by Arteta he says it's 70 yards from the goal and had no effect and you could pick a few of these for each team, yet whenever this happens to his team he's unhappy about it even if it's 70 odd yards away, you don't hear him say it had no impact then

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What's that? :o Wenger is biased towards his own team? OUTRAGEOUS! (There is a school of thought which says that people who call themselves Arsenal fans should be that way...) And note how Zim completely ignores the part where Wenger said he didn't think it was a foul anyway.

Zim never misses an opportunity to have a dig at Wenger. And if there isn't a real opportunity he makes one up. It goes way beyond pessimism, it's real bitter hatred. It's completely bizarre.