Ramsey is not a 10 and doesn't even play it for Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Wenger has not adapted to modern tactics. Other managers would get it. Not Arsene.
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Ramsey is not a 10 and doesn't even play it for Wales.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Wenger has not adapted to modern tactics. Other managers would get it. Not Arsene.
I think you've got box to box and how the ball transitions from defence to attack mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Ah i see it wasn't sufficient for you not to agree with me, you have to try and imply ignorance and stupidity on my part...very wellQuote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
The term box-to-box midfielder refers to central midfielders who have good abilities and are skilled at both defending and attacking.[5] These players can therefore track back to their own box to make tackles and block shots and also run to the opponents' box to try to score. A good box-to-box midfielder needs good passing, vision, control, stamina, tackling and marking in defence, and shooting and dribbling in attack.
That is a description of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted from wikipedia.
And that is the role i have consistently stated Cazorla played whilst being partnered with Francis Coquelin, he did bust a gut tracking back to win possession, make interceptions etc and he did run forward with the ball in order to instigate attacks. Is that his natural position?....No but to be fair i've not tried to argue that, i think it's another instance of being slightly shoe horned....and to be fair i did make the point that was one of a few roles he has assumed whilst playing central midfield rather than his primary role.
And looking at the attributes of a good Box to Box midfielder....and where i think Ramsey falls down....good passing, vision, control, tackling.....I would add that i think speed is essential as well in order for you to track back especially when you play for a team like Arsenal and we commit a lot of men forward.
I think he is reasonaby ok at dribbling and i also agreed with you that he has fairly good stamina.
Endurance and stamina are key attributes to play box to box. It's what defines that sort of player because all central midfield players need to be able to pass and track back to tackle. What defines Cazorla is his passing and he's more likely to set the counter attack off with pass and highly unlikely to be the guy that arrives late in the box to pop a shot off and score.
I'd also argue the term box to box refers more so to the style and type of player and not a function in the team. The reason why Cesc Fabregas isn't a box to box player is because he hasn't got the stamina and endurance to get up and down the pitch and to be equally as effective on defence as he is on attack. Also, the physical presence of a player is what defines them as a box to box player. Santi just isn't that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
But that's your definition, i think it's a role that a player plays within a team....as the thing i copy and paste states it's whether someone has all the attributes listed as to whether they are good at the role or not, i think pace, tackling and passing ability are key skills to a good box to box midfielder and i think Ramsey lacks those attributes
If you are saying Cazorla lacks the overall physicality to make a top box to box midfielder then i would probably agree with you, but i contend he was played in the role and he showed good acceleration to run back to win tackles and was good enough on the ball as well as at passing for me, to make me feel confident in him playing that role than Aaron Ramsey.
I think a true Box to Box midfielder would be someone like Patrick Vieira who had both the physical and technical attributes, he was an important cog in winning the ball deep and using his physical power to run with the ball and had a good ability to pick out players with a pass.
Its the eternal question I guess. He definitely isnt a right winger which is where Wenger generally shoehorns him in, So where does he fit. Somewhere in midfield except hes not a DM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
or maybe just maybe we could accept he's not good enough for ArsenalQuote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
But that would be heresy because he played well for one season, and played well in the Euros
My bad. That was in response to Mastermind over where to play Ramsey. But yes. He needs to be out of the team. There is no place for him except as understudy to CazorlaQuote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Ah i wouldn't play Cazorla either, well not week in, week out.....and i would rotate where he plays as well so sometimes he is an understudy for Ozil as well as playing deeperQuote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Tackling and passing are key attributes to all the central midfield positions.Tracking back is a requirement for all midfield positions. Don't let the laziness we've seen from previous players like Denilson fool you. It's like saying a striker must score to be a striker. That's obvious. But for someone to be a 'clinical' striker or a 'fox in the box' that speaks more of the type of player they are. Same applies midfielders that are described as box to box types.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Besides defending, a box to box player should have the energy to burst forward and get into shooting/goal scoring positions. That's not Cazorla. Energy levels and endurance are key to the position hence the term box to box. Someone constantly jogging and working the midfield at both ends of the pitch. Not just short sprints to get back or forward. Anyone can do that. That doesn't make them box to box neither does a tackle or passing ability.
Again things like "don't be fooled" as if somehow because you don't agree with me i am somehow stupidQuote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I can only refer you to the definition of a box to box midfielder i have copied and pasted......tackling and passing ability are not of themselves what make a box to box midfielder no, but they are attributes that make for an effective one. What i am saying is that Cazorla wasn't making short sprints he was often running back from to defensive positions from more advanced positions to win back possession and then he was running with the ball to instigate them. Is that his primary function as a footballer in the sense that these things are his greatest attributes?...No but i haven't argued that. I have argued that he was played in that role when he partnered Coquelin and i have more faith in his ability to do that than Aaron Ramsey who i constantly see trundling back towards goal to win posession, holding onto the ball too long when it's been passed to him from the defence....being a burden to a flowing attacking move because his range of passing and or speed has let him down.
Does he have stamina?...yes but in of itself that's not enough without other attributes which for me he lacks. You go on about energy, he has energy in that he covers a lot of ground, but when it's at such a pace that it breaks down a flowing attacking move of what benefit is that energy. I think Cazorla has a better burst of pace than Ramsey.
I really can't see where any of this is getting us, i think it boils down to the fact that you cannot accept that i think a player playing in a position which isn't his natural position is better at it in my view than a player for whom that position is far more of a natural position.
It's an expression, man. Don't be so paranoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Also, you think I'm defending Ramsey? :lol: I think he's pants. Mastermind and I have had many debates on that. But we both agree on the type of player he is. Again, this is not about quality of performance. Ramsey would be described by most people as a box to box midfielder.
HCZ and PnG at it again :lol:
Get a room guys.. its high time! <_<
What's with all the gay fantasy shit? :lol: It's a debate and I tend to argue my point like this with everyone.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
And my point is that i think Cazorla is better at playing that role than he is, and i think the term box to box midfielder is more indicative of where a player is slotted in a formation and style of play. I never argued to begin with that Cazorla was a box to box midfielder, for the past however many hours i have said i don't know how many times that in my view he was slotted into that role to play alongside Coquelin.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
And i can't argue whether or not Ramsey is designated as a box to box midfielder, but he lacks so many of the attributes that would make him any good at the role that it seems an almost pointless label.....i have seen him play in a defensive role, i have seen him play in an advance role and sometimes i have seen him meander around the pitch and never the twain shall meet.
I really think it's high time you stop trying to deflect the clear frustration that you have that your homoerotic desires are seen as a moral aberration in your country.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
This is the 21st century, if you like the D that's none of my business.....maybe become an activist for Gay Rights?
The problem with footy fans is that we don't think critical. Everything has to be fixed when in reality nothing is fixed on a pitch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Why would you have Ransey playing as a winger? You don't. You have Ramsey has a midfield right in order to help the right channel and support Bellerin. It's not different from what Pogba played for Juventus.
It seems like a shoehorn because Arsenal have no system and that's on Wenger.
Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermind84
Cazorla is a much better player than Ramsey and better as CM. I've said for ages he should be starting games there over Ramsey. Same goes for when we had Rosicky. Similar sort of player to Cazorla but not described as a box to box player. I can't stress enough how this is not argument about the quality of a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
When we played against Leicester, we played Xhaka and Coquelin as the midfield pair. Did any of them slot into the 'box to box' role? It's worth reading Wenger's comments on how he describes our different midfielders and their skill set.
I think we've had our clue from Wenger on why he played Ramsey on the flank so often. He'll comeback to defend. Wenger has already said he doesn't rate Walcott's defending in that position...(but still plays him there)...I'm guessing he doesn't trust Ox that much either but I really don't know why Campbell can't play there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
I don't think you realise you are doing it , "I can't stress enough that this isn't an argument over the quality of a player" I can assure you I'm really not as slow on the uptake as you take me as being :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
All I'm saying is that in my view the role undertaken by Cazorla when playing with Coquelin met the conditions of what I see as a typical box to box function, he ran back from high up the pitch to intercept and win posession, he took the ball forward with bursts of pace and assist the attacks....in fact the only thing he didn't do was shoot on goal as much as he might have done playing in an advanced role.
Now you mention as a counter example that Wenger picked at Leicester Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin, I think that was personally a bizarre choice as it does seem that Wenger does favour midfielders playing in front of the defence to play a DM/BBM role which is why when Cazorla and Coquelin were both injured he favoured Flamini and Ramsey back there.
I am not just saying that Cazorla is a better player than Ramsey, I'm saying he can perform the box to box role better than Ramsey. I feel happy saying that even though as I've said its not his natural position and I would agree that it's somewhat a waste of his other talents.
Campbell dont offer much of anything. He is one paced, one footed, and while he does try to defend he isnt really strong there either. He is also a wack dribbler.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
Theo could potentially work out wide, and has been really good through the first 3 matches.
THe big problem with Arsenal is Wenger's lack of a system, but Ramsey is a box to box mid.
Campbell was liked because of his work rate, which has often been seeing lacking in Theo.....to be fair i think by his standards he has been fairly industrious this seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by mastermind84
Again i don't deny Ramsey is a box to box player, my contention is that he is so bad at it (to the point where someone who isn't that in Cazorla excels at it far better) is that it seems an almost fatuous label.
Google it. :lol: See what results pop up. Tim Stillman writes well on this sort of topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
WTF is going on here? A few days away and suddenly Cazorla is a box-to-box midfielder who needs to retire and Theo supposedly played well in 3 games.
Come on guys! Knock it off.
Theo has been absolute garbage in all 3 games. He's a fuckwit of a player that offers nothing of value because he has zero consistency in anything he tries to do. So for every triumph (few and far between) there's at least a catastrophe (usually many more). A proper football team with ambition can't possibly carry a player like that, waiting for the odd non-spastic contribution.
Cazorla, meanwhile, remains our best player. Perhaps he's not the most talented in the team, or the fittest or the youngest or the fastest, but he's our best player. He's the only one that can make that obnoxious Wenger BoreBall work - not sure of that's an insult or a compliment. He's good enough on the ball to hold it and distribute it quickly when he's advanced and ahead of the holding player, usually Coquelin, now Xhaka (who is a big improvement on Coq). He's smart enough not to play the Arsenal Way in front of the opposition back four, which means he doesn't run smack into them and lose the ball. Wenger relies almost entirely on Cazorla's ability to allow his shitty system to produce anything other than sideways tippety tap. Unfortunately we have the lamppost Bif and the braindead Theo as target men, so a lot of Santi's work goes to waste (much like Ozil's). But Wenger insists on playing shit and that shit would be a much bigger burden to carry without Cazorla dragging us out of the talent gutter. Will be interesting to see if the new guy is any good up top because if he is we could get a 3 for 1 effect with Santi and Ozil being the main beneficiaries.
Santi has never been used as the prime holding / defensive midfielder. Arteta explicitly was.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
You know how to flatter a girl Sherbert. Though I know what you mean about discerning one view from another, even if I think my views are more nuanced than most and not just because I don't say Wenker or Wheelchair.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Anyway my day job keeps me busy so I don't post as much as I'd like though I am quite sure I am earning a lot less than you or NQ in this horrible unfair world as you both have ample time to post! :d
I am not actually against seeing Cazorla usurped by a better and more beneficial player to the team but his omitting is periodically spoken about like an inevitability. Only it hasn't been an inevitability yet.....much like us falling out the top 4. I realise its just what we expect the Spanish to do....leave one day, thanks to the ghost of cesc past and Santi saying himself he'd like to go back one day.....so I get it.
Clearly Santi cannot go on forever. I think in spite of your unhealthy obsession with the Spanish imp's 'legs', your eyes should tell you that we tend to play better when he is playing and that he still performs as well as any in midfield. Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side. Is Santi going to score 15-20 league goals from midfield? No but the last person to do that was Ramsey....and you've already made your feelings on him clear. So by including him we aren't relinquishing anything like that kind of goal threat from another source. I think that part of Santa's magic (see what I did :d ) is intangible and the technical control we retain in midfield can't be as clearly or directly quantified and attributed to him but nevertheless is critical and I think you are tending to underestimate that quality. It isn't simply keeping possession either, it is the ability to keep the ball AND keep it in an area of the field where we can be on the brink of an attack. His utter two footedness is a large part in helping him achieve it and means that defenders who continually look to show opponents on to their 'weaker' side are nullified in the process and resort to simply trying to rob him of the ball.....which does not work either because he will just run rings around you and he doesn't need a 50 yard circle to do it.
I am glad I've at least encouraged a footballing debate though rather than the constant exchanges of the club's financial misdemeanour's or talk of the organisational structure and management!
You really have your panties in a bunch, dont you? :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Again an attempt to deflect, look man we get it....you want to be able to acknowledge the love you and your boy toy share, but presumably both because of the caste system and the fact that its illegal you can't.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Have your family tried to pressure you into marrying a girl?.....is that it?. Because if it is, it's not her fault so whilst on honeymoon in South Africa don't have her bumped off and attempt to make it look like a robbery....that poor girl can't help it that you were made the way you are
I view Theo as a poster boy for pretty much everything that is fundamentally wrong with Arsenal and indeed English football in general.Quote:
Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side.
Overhyped, overpaid, in reality second rate, and scandalously seemingly good enough for Arsenal. You can't say people are picking on him, it has been 10 years and the boy's done fuck all. Failed to improve at club level, failed to make the breakthrough at international level (even in an almost talentless England team). There's not much to commend our Theo.
On this basis, even if it were true that we stand more chance of winning with him in the side (and that's a shallow argument that misaligns cause and effect), Theo is a constant reminder to every Arsenal fan that second best will do at this place. And isn't that at the very heart of the club's problems? The lack of that killer ambition that drives teams to the top? So Theo has pace and therefore provides a randomness that doesn't exist in our more stable and static tip, tap set up? Big deal. We shouldn't be playing that shitty system in the first place, we should be setting up to maximise the attributes of the genuine quality we have at the club. If we did that, Theo wouldn't, couldn't get a sniff. And rightly so.
As with every season for the last decade, I'm on standby and eager for him to prove me wrong. I think a lot of fans are in the same boat.
I've noticed Theo has stepped up his defensive contribution after Wenger's public comments.
4/6 tackles vs Liverpool. 3/3 vs Leicester. 1/1 vs Watford along with 6 ball recoveries and 2 interceptions.
I wonder if Wenger has spoken to Theo about his defending and all round game before. Saw the below quote from Xhaka and it may explain why so many of our young players aren't developing and seem to do what the heck they like on the pitch.
Quote:
Xhaka, pronounced Jakka, said: “He (Wenger) is not a coach who speaks daily. Wenger talked to me two of three times. He told me he was very impressed with how I train, how I behave in my character and I was disciplined.
“He has an incredible way, an insane charisma. You look at him and you know ‘wow, this man has achieved and experienced so much’. The respect for him is enormous.”
I'm convinced that a large part of the problem is the way the club want to be seen as a family - we've been pushing that angle for as long as I can remember, and whilst it's all well and good for regular, day-to-day members of staff, I think it sends out all the wrong messages to the players. With a family, you know that they will always welcome you back into the fold, and give you chance after chance, no matter how often or how badly you mess up or disappoint, and so we see with way too many of our players - there's always another chance for them, and the club will always shield them from criticism and consequences. The atmosphere I'd like to see us cultivate would be more like that of a group of soldiers: you still get the comradery with your team mates, and the affinity for your unit / club, but it comes with a massive dose of added accountability - you know that your team mates will always have your back... but you also make damn sure that you don't put them in that situation in the first place [where the need to bail you out]. And if you become a constant liability, then you get drummed out of the core (so to speak), for your own good as much as everyone else's. Ruthless, but it has to be, if you want that winning mentality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
What does that quote really say? Wenger does fuck all and is living on his longevity and reputation. Butters the players up, doesn't come down on them nearly hard enough when there are problems. As Invisible says above, it's too cosy, too relaxed, there are too many liberties granted and being taken. These guys are being paid a fortune to strive with every ounce of their talent and their character to achieve. Year after year they fail. Even when the player in question is genuinely world class, he ultimately fails. What an incredible joke that Ozil couldn't break the club assist record last season. He was virtually there with half the season gone and then it all dried up - by no coincidence in line with the turgid and negative football we deployed for the second half of the season. Wenger would of course make a whole bunch of excuses about injuries. But this is where the likes of Walcott come into the picture, they need to be able to step up and keep it all on track when we lose first team players. Well he doesn't do that and he's not the only one who's guilty. We don't have a squad, we have a decent team in most respects (with a couple of glaring weaknesses) and then a squad that doesn't have the quality to fill the holes as they appear. We didn't have anyone to replace Santi last season and so the season fell apart. We didn't have anyone to step up for Giroud when his form fell off a cliff. Wenger is so negligent in this respect. Surely by now he knows those players he stays loyal to will absolutely not deliver when the call comes? He must know this by now, yet he persists. So maybe Theo is now starting to do some of the bare minimum that is expected of him anyway. So maybe Wenger has finally intervened and had a word. So what? None of it is even close to being good enough and it's all way, way too late. That's if Wenger has even said anything. If we go by Xhaka's report, maybe the only thing Wenger has said to Theo, 10 years into this failed project, is, "Ooooh, I like your hair like that!"Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Walcott is only still involved because he's on such a huge contract. I bet Wenger regrets giving him that deal 4 years ago and can't wait to move him on.
We're simply lumbered with him at the moment.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Wouldn't he have kept him on the bench if that were the case? I think Theo is still a part of Wenger's plans. Seeing how things went with Wilshere and Campbell, Wenger could have made it quite clear that he'd play a small role for us this season and then Theo could have decided on a transfer or loan.
Might have been hard to loan Walcott, as often we ask the club loaning one of our players to pick up a proportion of that player's wages....it was almost a deal breaker when Bendtner was farmed out to Sunderland.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
But i think yes it's more likely that Wenger is looking to persevere with Walcott (although it can't help either him or the player that he seems to change his mind constantly as to his best position). I think what goes against Walcott is his lack of industry, there is very little argument to be made that in anyway Joel Campbell is a better player but fans love him because of his sheer work rate and desire.
But again as you have pointed out and was very noticeable against Leicester was that he seems to be upping his work rate, but it won't mitigate for the obvious problem with Walcott....over thinking....if he has any time to make a decision he will often fluff it because he panics, where as when he has to do something instinctively and doesn't give himself time to think he tends to perform a great deal better.
He is the epitome like N_Q says of Arsenal players as is a confidence player, just like Arsenal is a confidence team....when confidence is high we can beat anyone but a set back and we go through periods of weeks where we don't look like we can beat anyone.
I don't know. With the money in the PL, there are a lot of teams that could absorb his wages. West Ham spraying money around, Everton, Liverpool and even Leicester are spunking it like there's no tomorrow. If Palace can put down £30m for Benteke plus wages, they could take a Feo. I think Wenger still wants him here. A loan could be arranged if needs be, even on a part-paid wage basis if we wanted shot of him that badly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
I don't know but I feel we've been here before with Walcott. Wenger will play him for a bit but tends to revert back to the players he trusts more. We'll see what happens now Giroud is back and of course Perez.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Kano makes a good point on other teams splashing money around. Wilshere managed a loan deal to Bournemouth and he's on £90k-£100k.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Even if Walcott isn't first choice, he'd have to struggle to make the bench for Wenger to ditch him. We'd need players to step up in order for that to happen. Ox and Iwobi in particular.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars