Summer Transfer Misery and Recriminations.

[Power n Glory]

Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.

I think we've had our clue from Wenger on why he played Ramsey on the flank so often. He'll comeback to defend. Wenger has already said he doesn't rate Walcott's defending in that position...(but still plays him there)...I'm guessing he doesn't trust Ox that much either but I really don't know why Campbell can't play there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Cazorla is a much better player than Ramsey and better as CM. I've said for ages he should be starting games there over Ramsey. Same goes for when we had Rosicky. Similar sort of player to Cazorla but not described as a box to box player. I can't stress enough how this is not argument about the quality of a player.

When we played against Leicester, we played Xhaka and Coquelin as the midfield pair. Did any of them slot into the 'box to box' role? It's worth reading Wenger's comments on how he describes our different midfielders and their skill set.

I don't think you realise you are doing it , "I can't stress enough that this isn't an argument over the quality of a player" I can assure you I'm really not as slow on the uptake as you take me as being

All I'm saying is that in my view the role undertaken by Cazorla when playing with Coquelin met the conditions of what I see as a typical box to box function, he ran back from high up the pitch to intercept and win posession, he took the ball forward with bursts of pace and assist the attacks....in fact the only thing he didn't do was shoot on goal as much as he might have done playing in an advanced role.

Now you mention as a counter example that Wenger picked at Leicester Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin, I think that was personally a bizarre choice as it does seem that Wenger does favour midfielders playing in front of the defence to play a DM/BBM role which is why when Cazorla and Coquelin were both injured he favoured Flamini and Ramsey back there.

I am not just saying that Cazorla is a better player than Ramsey, I'm saying he can perform the box to box role better than Ramsey. I feel happy saying that even though as I've said its not his natural position and I would agree that it's somewhat a waste of his other talents.

[mastermind84]

Agreed but a player like Campbell offers so much more in the same position. While I agree that players movements can be fluid but positional discipline is key especially when you lose possession. Ramsey should not be on the right wing. I dare say even a poor player like Walnutt is better than him there. Ramsey may have a good engine, but it is a diesel engine, he can run all day but not very fast. If he stays on the wing he will get burned by the opposition winger on the counter and not beat him going the other way.

Campbell dont offer much of anything. He is one paced, one footed, and while he does try to defend he isnt really strong there either. He is also a wack dribbler.

Theo could potentially work out wide, and has been really good through the first 3 matches.

THe big problem with Arsenal is Wenger's lack of a system, but Ramsey is a box to box mid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Campbell dont offer much of anything. He is one paced, one footed, and while he does try to defend he isnt really strong there either. He is also a wack dribbler.

Theo could potentially work out wide, and has been really good through the first 3 matches.

THe big problem with Arsenal is Wenger's lack of a system, but Ramsey is a box to box mid.

Campbell was liked because of his work rate, which has often been seeing lacking in Theo.....to be fair i think by his standards he has been fairly industrious this season

Again i don't deny Ramsey is a box to box player, my contention is that he is so bad at it (to the point where someone who isn't that in Cazorla excels at it far better) is that it seems an almost fatuous label.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think you realise you are doing it , "I can't stress enough that this isn't an argument over the quality of a player" I can assure you I'm really not as slow on the uptake as you take me as being

All I'm saying is that in my view the role undertaken by Cazorla when playing with Coquelin met the conditions of what I see as a typical box to box function, he ran back from high up the pitch to intercept and win posession, he took the ball forward with bursts of pace and assist the attacks....in fact the only thing he didn't do was shoot on goal as much as he might have done playing in an advanced role.

Now you mention as a counter example that Wenger picked at Leicester Granit Xhaka and Francis Coquelin, I think that was personally a bizarre choice as it does seem that Wenger does favour midfielders playing in front of the defence to play a DM/BBM role which is why when Cazorla and Coquelin were both injured he favoured Flamini and Ramsey back there.

I am not just saying that Cazorla is a better player than Ramsey, I'm saying he can perform the box to box role better than Ramsey. I feel happy saying that even though as I've said its not his natural position and I would agree that it's somewhat a waste of his other talents.

Google it. See what results pop up. Tim Stillman writes well on this sort of topic.

[Niall_Quinn]

WTF is going on here? A few days away and suddenly Cazorla is a box-to-box midfielder who needs to retire and Theo supposedly played well in 3 games.

Come on guys! Knock it off.

Theo has been absolute garbage in all 3 games. He's a fuckwit of a player that offers nothing of value because he has zero consistency in anything he tries to do. So for every triumph (few and far between) there's at least a catastrophe (usually many more). A proper football team with ambition can't possibly carry a player like that, waiting for the odd non-spastic contribution.

Cazorla, meanwhile, remains our best player. Perhaps he's not the most talented in the team, or the fittest or the youngest or the fastest, but he's our best player. He's the only one that can make that obnoxious Wenger BoreBall work - not sure of that's an insult or a compliment. He's good enough on the ball to hold it and distribute it quickly when he's advanced and ahead of the holding player, usually Coquelin, now Xhaka (who is a big improvement on Coq). He's smart enough not to play the Arsenal Way in front of the opposition back four, which means he doesn't run smack into them and lose the ball. Wenger relies almost entirely on Cazorla's ability to allow his shitty system to produce anything other than sideways tippety tap. Unfortunately we have the lamppost Bif and the braindead Theo as target men, so a lot of Santi's work goes to waste (much like Ozil's). But Wenger insists on playing shit and that shit would be a much bigger burden to carry without Cazorla dragging us out of the talent gutter. Will be interesting to see if the new guy is any good up top because if he is we could get a 3 for 1 effect with Santi and Ozil being the main beneficiaries.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

But that was exactly how he has been utilised.....he spent half a season busting a gut and it probably contributed to him being injured long term

And again i repeat sitting deep like Pirlo in the premier league just doesn't work.....we tried it with Arteta and all we ended up with was a defence being massively exposed because he didn't have the legs.

Santi has never been used as the prime holding / defensive midfielder. Arteta explicitly was.

I did say i wasn't sure, and i was right....i was arguing that Cazorla had been playing a box to box role and you were scathing of that.

I'm honestly not trying to be offensive, but I answer the responses to me, i don't tend to delineate between one individual and another. I recognise you from previous full blooded discussions by your name, but very few people on here come across as distinctive individuals.

But regardless of where he is playing on the pitch.....my argument still is, if his legs are going, if other players in the side are just at good at ball distribution as him and he isn't scoring goals....then there is no harm in thinking of replacing him.

Keeping him on in a Pirlo role i believe would not be complimentary or efficacious and seems to be an unnecessary luxury borne out of a fondness for the player. I can appreciate the fondness for Cazorla, i like the player.....but i don't think players like him do well for long post 30....certainly not playing game in game out.

You know how to flatter a girl Sherbert. Though I know what you mean about discerning one view from another, even if I think my views are more nuanced than most and not just because I don't say Wenker or Wheelchair.

Anyway my day job keeps me busy so I don't post as much as I'd like though I am quite sure I am earning a lot less than you or NQ in this horrible unfair world as you both have ample time to post!

I am not actually against seeing Cazorla usurped by a better and more beneficial player to the team but his omitting is periodically spoken about like an inevitability. Only it hasn't been an inevitability yet.....much like us falling out the top 4. I realise its just what we expect the Spanish to do....leave one day, thanks to the ghost of cesc past and Santi saying himself he'd like to go back one day.....so I get it.

Clearly Santi cannot go on forever. I think in spite of your unhealthy obsession with the Spanish imp's 'legs', your eyes should tell you that we tend to play better when he is playing and that he still performs as well as any in midfield. Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side. Is Santi going to score 15-20 league goals from midfield? No but the last person to do that was Ramsey....and you've already made your feelings on him clear. So by including him we aren't relinquishing anything like that kind of goal threat from another source. I think that part of Santa's magic (see what I did ) is intangible and the technical control we retain in midfield can't be as clearly or directly quantified and attributed to him but nevertheless is critical and I think you are tending to underestimate that quality. It isn't simply keeping possession either, it is the ability to keep the ball AND keep it in an area of the field where we can be on the brink of an attack. His utter two footedness is a large part in helping him achieve it and means that defenders who continually look to show opponents on to their 'weaker' side are nullified in the process and resort to simply trying to rob him of the ball.....which does not work either because he will just run rings around you and he doesn't need a 50 yard circle to do it.

I am glad I've at least encouraged a footballing debate though rather than the constant exchanges of the club's financial misdemeanour's or talk of the organisational structure and management!

[fakeyank]

I really think it's high time you stop trying to deflect the clear frustration that you have that your homoerotic desires are seen as a moral aberration in your country.

This is the 21st century, if you like the D that's none of my business.....maybe become an activist for Gay Rights?

You really have your panties in a bunch, dont you?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You really have your panties in a bunch, dont you?

Again an attempt to deflect, look man we get it....you want to be able to acknowledge the love you and your boy toy share, but presumably both because of the caste system and the fact that its illegal you can't.

Have your family tried to pressure you into marrying a girl?.....is that it?. Because if it is, it's not her fault so whilst on honeymoon in South Africa don't have her bumped off and attempt to make it look like a robbery....that poor girl can't help it that you were made the way you are

[Niall_Quinn]

Much like NQ will eventually come round to the idea that although he cannot stand Theo....we are just plainly more likely to actually win games with him in the side.

I view Theo as a poster boy for pretty much everything that is fundamentally wrong with Arsenal and indeed English football in general.

Overhyped, overpaid, in reality second rate, and scandalously seemingly good enough for Arsenal. You can't say people are picking on him, it has been 10 years and the boy's done fuck all. Failed to improve at club level, failed to make the breakthrough at international level (even in an almost talentless England team). There's not much to commend our Theo.

On this basis, even if it were true that we stand more chance of winning with him in the side (and that's a shallow argument that misaligns cause and effect), Theo is a constant reminder to every Arsenal fan that second best will do at this place. And isn't that at the very heart of the club's problems? The lack of that killer ambition that drives teams to the top? So Theo has pace and therefore provides a randomness that doesn't exist in our more stable and static tip, tap set up? Big deal. We shouldn't be playing that shitty system in the first place, we should be setting up to maximise the attributes of the genuine quality we have at the club. If we did that, Theo wouldn't, couldn't get a sniff. And rightly so.

As with every season for the last decade, I'm on standby and eager for him to prove me wrong. I think a lot of fans are in the same boat.