Next Arsenal manager?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

:lol: You've got to see the funny side in telling me to look up Everton's finances, and praising a manager that has never won a trophy at his time with Everton but then argue a top 7 finish is more important than trophy. Doesn't that sound like the sort of argument people make for Wenger? Damn right I'm judging Moyes on lack of trophies because if he was that good he'd have at least have a one two domestic cups in the cabinet and maybe an impressive run in the Europa League like how McLaren and Hodgson. At least! In no way would Moyes be a step up from Wenger and I'm not about to look at balance sheets and consistent top 10 finishes to justify his credentials. How can you crucify Wenger for such a weak argument and want him gone but then make a similar case for the appointment of Moyes? Madness.

Arsene Wenger is a soft touch and doesn't drill the players properly or tell them the hard facts enough when it comes to their performances and ability. But he still has there respect and there hasn't been a player or ex player under him that has come out to disrespect him. I think he chooses the wrong methods to prepare for matches but if he'd hit the roof at half time or in training the players will put in a shift. But that's besides the point. You have to see the irony in the case your making for Moyes and then look at the arguments being made for Wenger's record.

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Also, the playing style and philosophy of Moyes doesn't suit what we've built here at Arsenal. We're an attacking team and all about technical excellence. We need to balance out the defence but taking on Moyes is step too far. I would much rather have Laudrop. He comes from the school of Total Football because he played at Barca and under Cryuff alongside Pep. In fact, just saying that has convinced me that Laudrop would be a fit here.

GB: You're right. We should snap that guy up.

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not really. football is context specific, look at the size of everton compared to us. we can justify moyes finishing top 7 and no trophy because they have little finances, they are a smaller club with inferior facilities and there is less expectation. we can lambast wenger for no trophies because we are a bigger club, with bigger resources and better facilities. so damn right ill have a go at him and use it as a yardstick for results at arsenal. we are performing at the lowest of our capabilities but everton have been performing at their highest for years, and thats solely down to one man.

and why have you moved the goalposts? you went from saying something along the lines of 'a manager has to win a trophy to be considered good' to 'actually a good run in the europa league can do it too'. well ill move the goalposts a third time; a consistent top 7 finish at a club with lesser finances proves a manager is good and deserves a chance at a top club. you see it works both ways! if we're judging it based on trophies then according to your hypothesis we need alex mcleish here. well that clearly wouldnt work would it, so you have to take other things into consideration, the overall picture etc.

and respect has little to do with performance nowadays. wenger has all the respect in the world but when it doesnt correlate to performance, whats the use? give me a man with 'lesser' respect but can actually deliver results, over a two bob who has respect based on performances almost a decade ago. but who says moyes has less respect than wenger anyway? has a player ever disrespected him? i cant recall so.

finally, your last point- everton have been very good on the eye this year. at the start of the year they were flying with good passing, high tempo football. dropped off a bit but still decent. he used to be a rigid manager but now his teams are expressing themselves more. he'll adapt, just like any manager would, to the resources at his disposal. in fact id argue the first thing we need to do is address our defence so if he comes in and changes this tippy tappy, slow tempo crap, to sticking a few more players behind the ball and counter attacking, i think we'd flourish.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

not really. football is context specific, look at the size of everton compared to us. we can justify moyes finishing top 7 and no trophy because they have little finances, they are a smaller club with inferior facilities and there is less expectation. we can lambast wenger for no trophies because we are a bigger club, with bigger resources and better facilities. so damn right ill have a go at him and use it as a yardstick for results at arsenal. we are performing at the lowest of our capabilities but everton have been performing at their highest for years, and thats solely down to one man.

and why have you moved the goalposts? you went from saying something along the lines of 'a manager has to win a trophy to be considered good' to 'actually a good run in the europa league can do it too'. well ill move the goalposts a third time; a consistent top 7 finish at a club with lesser finances proves a manager is good and deserves a chance at a top club. you see it works both ways! if we're judging it based on trophies then according to your hypothesis we need alex mcleish here. well that clearly wouldnt work would it, so you have to take other things into consideration, the overall picture etc.

and respect has little to do with performance nowadays. wenger has all the respect in the world but when it doesnt correlate to performance, whats the use? give me a man with 'lesser' respect but can actually deliver results, over a two bob who has respect based on performances almost a decade ago. but who says moyes has less respect than wenger anyway? has a player ever disrespected him? i cant recall so.

finally, your last point- everton have been very good on the eye this year. at the start of the year they were flying with good passing, high tempo football. dropped off a bit but still decent. he used to be a rigid manager but now his teams are expressing themselves more. he'll adapt, just like any manager would, to the resources at his disposal. in fact id argue the first thing we need to do is address our defence so if he comes in and changes this tippy tappy, slow tempo crap, to sticking a few more players behind the ball and counter attacking, i think we'd flourish.

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That still doesn't sound right to me. We sack our guy that has actually won silverware and has finished in the top 4 consistently since he's been here for guy that has a consistent top 10 record? If the Board appointed Moyes you know we're well and truly fucked. They're not taking into account his history of winning, his playing style, philosophy, appeal around Europe or record in Europe, nope they'd be thinking at that juicy balance sheet and thinking how much easier it would be to penny pinch with a man like Moyes in charge. That would be the sign of doom if it ever crossed their mind to appoint him. That's context.

I'm not moving the goal posts either, just saying there is a bare minimum we should accept and of course McLeish isn't a consideration, get serious. I'd be deeply worried if we appointed Moyes because I think these current fuckers will be trying to pull of their own austerity measures at the Emirates. When we start appointing mangers on that basis then you know we're in serious trouble.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

That still doesn't sound right to me. We sack our guy that has actually won silverware and has finished in the top 4 consistently since he's been here for guy that has a consistent top 10 record? If the Board appointed Moyes you know we're well and truly fucked. They're not taking into account his history of winning, his playing style, philosophy, appeal around Europe or record in Europe, nope they'd be thinking at that juicy balance sheet and thinking how much easier it would be to penny pinch with a man like Moyes in charge. That would be the sign of doom if it ever crossed their mind to appoint him. That's context.

I'm not moving the goal posts either, just saying there is a bare minimum we should accept and of course McLeish isn't a consideration, get serious. I'd be deeply worried if we appointed Moyes because I think these current fuckers will be trying to pull of their own austerity measures at the Emirates. When we start appointing mangers on that basis then you know we're in serious trouble.

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i get your point but im looking at it from a different perspective. logically, im thinking moyes is good in 3 areas:

1. organisation
2. motivation
3. tactics

the three things we lack right now are these 3. he hasnt won trophies and he hasnt had an illustrious playing career to fall back on like laudrup, but he has delivered in the toughest league in the world for nearly a decade on a shoe string budget and little resources. id argue thats more impressive than what laudrup has achieved as a manager even though laudrup won a few trophies with some danish club. im sure if moyes went to another country such as sweden and took over a club in their top division, he'd manage them right to the top too. so it isnt really a yardstick to base an argument on. you really think the players here will acknowledge the fact he won the danish cup? or the carling cup for that matter? i mean id accept your argument if you were making comparisons between moyes and a super-giant like ancelotti or pep, but laudrup? really? come on now.

if we are arguing who has been a better manager over the past few years out of moyes and wenger then there's an argument for both; moyes at everton is doing an incredible job and finishing in the top 7 is some achievement. they could easily have faltered and become a bunch of nobodies like so many other clubs but he's got this burning desire to keep getting the best out of players and a hunger to keep going at a club which reached its limits years ago. what has wenger done over the past few years to allow you to disregard moyes for him in an instant? wengers been tactically clueless, stubborn, and failed to address our issues. its been year on year decline. our last great team was 07/08 and look how that ended. if you're worried about being efficient with resources and having to be the boards pet then surely moyes would be the least of your worries? has he fucked up their wage structure? has he overpaid average no hopers? in fact if you're on a budget (which many believe wenger is) then moyes is surely the best guy for that? he's been doing wonders at everton.

who has achieved most with what they've had over recent years? moyes. who has done more in their overall career? clearly wenger. but we cant wait for an old dog to learn new tricks and whilst wengers living in the past, moyes is living in the present. its silly to say 'we cant sack wenger and bring in someone who's got a worse record in the league' because thats like saying 'id give wenger the keys to my ferrari cause he beat moyes 10 times around the track with his porsche, even though moyes was using his ford focus'. different clubs, different facilities, different resources and different circumstances.

he probably would be the boards pet but any manager that comes in would be. we cant even base our discussion on that argument because we will never go for a manager that defies the boards money pinching culture. so when you incorporate everything and take our position into account, moyes would be a pretty decent fit; a yes man, a guy who doesnt complain, but most of all, someone who gets the most out of players. wenger is on a downward sloping curve but moyes is upwards sloping. simple.

Tactics, motivation and organisation...there are mangers out there that have that along with good records in other league and Europe. Neither Moyes or Laudrup are ideal candidates but I'd pick Laudrop because his history as a player adds a lot of weight to what he says when coaching. He has played with the biggest clubs in the world and earned the respect of the best. That will count for a lot when coaching players. He also comes from the school of Total Football and has a style that is very close to what we play here. But he still has a lot to prove. But I could almost respect the Board taking a risk on a young manager that was one of the world's best in the 90s and coached by a legend/ played alongside legends. Maybe they'd see him as the next big manager like Pep...who knows but I could at least respect that sort of risk. Moyes would seem like a safe bet and safety net appointment. Gret with money and a top 10 finish guaranteed. It's like Arsene now. Little risk involved just stability and good balancing of the books. I'd be well worried if we went and got Moyes. We should be aiming higher than both of these guys in truth but if we're going for someone untested and at a smaller club, it should be someone that at least was well respected as a player and has that total football philosophy.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Tactics, motivation and organisation...there are mangers out there that have that along with good records in other league and Europe. Neither Moyes or Laudrup are ideal candidates but I'd pick Laudrop because his history as a player adds a lot of weight to what he says when coaching. He has played with the biggest clubs in the world and earned the respect of the best. That will count for a lot when coaching players. He also comes from the school of Total Football and has a style that is very close to what we play here. But he still has a lot to prove. But I could almost respect the Board taking a risk on a young manager that was one of the world's best in the 90s and coached by a legend/ played alongside legends. Maybe they'd see him as the next big manager like Pep...who knows but I could at least respect that sort of risk. Moyes would seem like a safe bet and safety net appointment. Gret with money and a top 10 finish guaranteed. It's like Arsene now. Little risk involved just stability and good balancing of the books. I'd be well worried if we went and got Moyes. We should be aiming higher than both of these guys in truth but if we're going for someone untested and at a smaller club, it should be someone that at least was well respected as a player and has that total football philosophy.

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can you name me some realistic candidates then? and managers you actually know about in terms of tactics, motivation and organisation, i dont just want a list of fantasised names who you assume achieve the criteria and you dont actually know much about, because i think you'll find its harder than you think.

and i still find it laughable you wax lyrics about laudrup, who has been here for 1 season and took a team who had everything set in place, yet disregard moyes, who took everton from nothing and has been doing it for almost a decade. but moyes is no lord laudrup! if only his name was moyesinho and he was a bit more suave!

Isn’t Moyes one the longest serving Prem bosses behind Wenger and Fergie? When you have that sort of job stability when clubs like Villa, Newcastle, West Ham, Fulham keep chopping and changing managers it works in your favour. Tony Pulis will be able to maintain a good league position record if the Stoke Board and fans don’t rock the boat.

He’s qualified for the Europa League on a number of occasions and he’s never done well in the competition. He’s also never won any of the domestic cups. Those aren’t good signs to me. There are other candidates out there that are doing similar things in other leagues on small budgets but beating some of Europe’s finest and winning cups. I wouldn’t be able to name them all because I don’t watch enough of the other leagues but I’m sure a few people on here could probably help out. Either way, Wenger wouldn't have been on the fans radar when we first signed him but he at least won the French League before he arrived here. Moyes hasn't won anything or done well in Europe to be such a dead cert here.

We should be looking for a top draw manager, and paying accordingly. Nothing but the best will do, so all this talk of Moyes and other mediocre managers is rubbish, IMO.

but a top tier manager would want a decent budget and support to succeed, not to come in and play the company line and do the minimum. the top tier guys won't be interested in that at all.

we're looking at tier two type managers, or those that have a record of overachieving on smaller resources.

It'll be one of Garde or Stojkovic I think his name is.

Both are Wenger protégés who will move upstairs. Both will toe the company line. Nothing will change. The only question is how much they want in wages and who ever is cheapest will get it.

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Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz

but a top tier manager would want a decent budget and support to succeed, not to come in and play the company line and do the minimum. the top tier guys won't be interested in that at all.

we're looking at tier two type managers, or those that have a record of overachieving on smaller resources.

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And Moyes isn't a tier two type. Maybe someone that has done well in the Europa league and won domestic cups at least whilst having a good league record. Or an International manager ready for club football.