Ozil - Do we need him?

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Originally Posted by mastermind84

yes, you are Alternative Facts.

Hazard was slated for not defending earlier at the Emirates. Killed. He struggled earlier this season.

Conte liberated that from him and told him to stay higher up the pitch. Now Hazard is back to being a killer. Wenger doesn't play to Ozil's strength to help the team. I said it earlier, the man should be used as a forward and not as a 3rd midfielder. He tried it on Saturday but they moved back because no one had an idea how to deal with Pedro. Thats down to Wenger.


Coquelin is a bummy footballer, but Wenger wants him to contribute to our attack. He

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Dumbass, what's stopping Ozil from attempting more than one take on in that match? Can he not dribble?

Hazard had 10/10 for take ons. 0/1 for Ozil. Those are the facts. No matter where you play or what instructions you're under, you can at least attempt to dribble out of trouble as Hazard did, as Cazorla often does. It's not even a case of him needing to be liberated from defensive duties. Even if played as a forward, he can't coast and just depend on his passing.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Alternative facts? :doh:

Can anyone explain to me how the heck the system we play stops a player from doing the simplest thing any player can do and track back?

Or something as simple as jumping to defend a header?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LwrPA3Z8ie8

Man, if you guys don't knock off this bullshit about the 'system'.... :lol:

When will common sense kick in? If you’re at work and have to contact an important client on deadline day but emails aren’t working, is that an excuse not to work at all? How about picking up the phone? :rolleyes:

As said with Ozil, he’s super talented, has pace, can dribble and pass. Ok, passing isn’t working but seek an alternative way to win the game if you’re truly world class. The best in the world aren’t so easy to stop. What pisses me off more than anything is that he’s one of the few that’s capable. People are often surprised by sudden burst of pace or dribbles because he shows it. Take some initiative. If you’re hammering it out for 80 odd minutes with unsuccessful pass after pass and still losing, when will it the light bulb shine to try something different? It’s the same sort of thing I hammer Arsene Wenger for with his rigid approach. Ozil is one of the few players capable of adapting his play.

Also, no matter how much I can’t stand Wenger as manager it doesn’t mean players can get away with some of the performances we’ve seen. You’ve seen the clips of Sanchez and Ozil walking and not defending against Chelsea. For the Hazard goal we saw similar to what Ramsey pulled against Watford. What has that got to do with the system? It’s inexcusable.

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Plainly it does mean players can get away with some of the performances we have seen. It's players like Perez who get dropped, or Campbell who get shifted on. The players you complain about are all rolled out week after week. Sounds very much like they are getting away with it.

So we either;

Get rid of them and get some replacements in who will also be allowed to get away with it every week;

Get rid of the guy who let's them get away with it;

Get rid of all of them.

Option 1 is pointless. Option 3 is overkill, because if we got a manager who doesn't let them get away with it then who knows?

So option 2 is logical and leaves an incoming manager with at least the opportunity to see what these players can actually do.

Do we applaud players who don't give their all? Nope. I think comments like, "didn't turn up", "lazy bastards", are a clue into the true feeling when players don't give back something in return for what they take.

But how do we actually go about solving this problem?

We get rid of the guy who is ultimately responsible for the problem and a hundred other problems besides. If we did that today, booted him today, and got a decent manager in then I'd have every hope of this squad breaking into that 12 point gap. But for every game that Wenger remains the situation becomes more hopeless.

The fans are wasting their energy if it is not poured 100% into getting this man out.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Plainly it does mean players can get away with some of the performances we have seen. It's players like Perez who get dropped, or Campbell who get shifted on. The players you complain about are all rolled out week after week. Sounds very much like they are getting away with it.

So we either;

Get rid of them and get some replacements in who will also be allowed to get away with it every week;

Get rid of the guy who let's them get away with it;

Get rid of all of them.

Option 1 is pointless. Option 3 is overkill, because if we got a manager who doesn't let them get away with it then who knows?

So option 2 is logical and leaves an incoming manager with at least the opportunity to see what these players can actually do.

Do we applaud players who don't give their all? Nope. I think comments like, "didn't turn up", "lazy bastards", are a clue into the true feeling when players don't give back something in return for what they take.

But how do we actually go about solving this problem?

We get rid of the guy who is ultimately responsible for the problem and a hundred other problems besides. If we did that today, booted him today, and got a decent manager in then I'd have every hope of this squad breaking into that 12 point gap. But for every game that Wenger remains the situation becomes more hopeless.

The fans are wasting their energy if it is not poured 100% into getting this man out.

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So you admit Wenger is letting him coast? If we can get to that sort of acknowledgement than I'm open to discussing the solutions. Just the other day you were saying Ozil's stats prove he works hard. That's the sort of excuse I can't stand. We have videos up of him not jumping to defend that last minute winner and Minormind is talking as if he's too good to jump for the ball. I can't honestly criticise Wenger for making excuses in his lost match interviews and then come on here and listen to the same sort of excuses.

Possible solutions...a new manager first and foremost. Next, Ozil may have to rethink his position as a number 10. Hardly any managers plays the system we play and most players that have Ozil's technical skills operate from deep. Or wide in a forward role like Minormind says. But Ozil has to really adjust his game to play those roles. If further back, he can't be afraid of physical contact. He has to engage, tackle, press and really up his physical game if he's going to be in the thick of things. I doubt he can make that transition and it might not be the best move for such a light player.

As a forward on the wing, it's not as if he can ignore his defensive duties there either. He'll have to chase back because we saw how Chelsea ripped us open. Minormind is wrong about Hazard having no defensive duties. Certainly wasn't the case against us anyway. Also, Ozil has to be more aggressive when approaching the box and take on players. Passing to the nearest open man can't always be the go to option.

Players have to take some responsibility for their game if we've paid serious money for their talent. Just on the other thread you weren't you saying it was the Vieira's and Bergkamp's that helped us win titles despite Wenger's flaws? So what's so different now?

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So you admit Wenger is letting him coast?

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Not at all. I'm testing your argument and showing you how even if what you are saying is true then you only have one real course of remedy. I don't think Ozil coasts at all. I think he works hard yet sometimes terribly ineffectively. Like most of the players in the squad. They have no direction, no discernible tactics to work with, apparently no appreciation of the opposition and given they have no initial plan it stands to reason they have no fallback when things go wrong. I think Ozil "goes missing", like many players in the squad, because when they come up against competent managers and above average opponents the lack of planning and tactics on our part are a handicap too great to overcome, in most cases. Sometimes individual brilliance pulls our arse out of the fire.

I think Cech is a bigger indicator than Ozil. I find it extremely hard to believe Cech has decided to be unprofessional just because he has joined Arsenal. I think he's being handicapped by the general disorganisation in the team, just like other players. Yes, there's no forgiving kicking the ball to the opposition like he did against the chavs. That's a straight mistake. But I think performances and momentum are closely linked and if you have a manager who seems to make it his main aim in life to destroy momentum then the chaos and randomness it injects into what should be a carefully drilled machine is going to cause splutters and backfires. Or handbrakes being left on, if we want to use a Wenger analogy.

Will I concede that Ozil makes infuriating individual mistakes and that sometimes he can be bullied out of a game? Yes, that seems to be fair. I also say that there's a different refereeing standard for us, and I know people will say knock it off, it all evens out. That's not what I see. But yes, he can be bullied, no doubt about it and if I question him it's on that basis. Is he tough enough for this league? Shame that such a talented player has to worry about being kicked around the place, but that's the reality of this pub league. I think he tried to toughen up at the start of last season but didn't carry it through and is now looking a bit lightweight again. I'd like to see him get a nice red card for going straight through the back of some Utd scumbag like Fellaini or Rooney. I think that would do him the world of good. Really fuck them up badly, so the next dirty cunt who steps out against him has something to think about.

Yes, I'm totally up for a new manager coming in, taking a look at not just Ozil but everyone and saying let's change that. In fact it would be awful if that didn't happen. Some Wenger stooge coming in and keeping everything the same, and it's not inconceivable that's precisely what we'll get.

Players do indeed have to take responsibility for their performances. But I have said it before, if you get a bad choreographer then even the best dancers on the planet will put on a bad show. It's not because they are bad dancers, it's because they were asked to dance badly.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Dumbass, what's stopping Ozil from attempting more than one take on in that match? Can he not dribble?

Hazard had 10/10 for take ons. 0/1 for Ozil. Those are the facts. No matter where you play or what instructions you're under, you can at least attempt to dribble out of trouble as Hazard did, as Cazorla often does. It's not even a case of him needing to be liberated from defensive duties. Even if played as a forward, he can't coast and just depend on his passing.

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why are you calling me a dumbass?

Where is Ozil receiving the ball? Is he facing our goal or the opponents goal? These are questions you have to answer when you ask a question like "why is he only attempting one dribble a game?" I don't know the answer to that, but watching Ozil for years at Madrid, at Bremen, and for Germany he is not utlized the same way at Arsenal as he was at those other sides. You see this sport through a vacuum and give individual players too much power. This sport is about organization and tactics and the positioning of your teammates and their technical ability. Its even more about it now with the Guardiola influenced football we are seeing now, and which Wenger has not attempted to understand.

Hazard's takeover success proves the point I am making. In the first match at the Emirates, Hazard only completed 1/4 take-ons, also a fact. Conte liberated him and moved him higher up the pitch and created a system to get the best out of him. Wenger has no idea how to get the best out of Ozil, and even Sanchez. On Saturday Sanchez had one touch in the penalty area. Think about that. I have railed against Sanchez's discipline and how he is often anti-structure, but if your tactics Alexis Sanchez only a single touch in the penalty area over 90 minutes then something is terribly wrong with your system or lack thereof.

Like I said earlier in this season, you want Wenger gone but I don't think you know why you want him gone.

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Players do indeed have to take responsibility for their performances. But I have said it before, if you get a bad choreographer then even the best dancers on the planet will put on a bad show. It's not because they are bad dancers, it's because they were asked to dance badly.

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Yes, a bad show. But does that mean the dancer forgets and looks like they now long know how to pirouette? ;)

I know the course of remedy. That's not what I'm debating. I'm not happy with Wenger's performance as a manger but I'm also unhappy with Ozil. But you're unwilling to concede that Ozil isn't doing more than he can for some reason. The reason why this debate lasts so long because it's met with so much resistance by Arsenal fans. It's a strange one.

I think it boils down to this, some players are self motivated and others need the manager to motivate them, we've all seen struggling sides who sack their manager bring someone better in and display a new vigour, with players looking hungrier, more motivated and generally performing better.

Things are stale under Wenger, players lack motivation and we're seeing this all over the pitch, performance are average and there's a distinct lack of hunger and desire, all comes from the manager I'm afraid, a better manager would transform the side and maybe give them a fresh outlook and bring back that desire that's missing. If players don't respond then they'll be replaced with players who fit in.

Ozil to me clearly looks like he needs someone to give him fresh drive, Wenger isn't the man, but perhaps we can find someone who can, he's undoubtedly very, very talented nobody can doubt that, but he needs the right manager to get the best out of him and perhaps more competition for his place.

I still think a strong captain would do the job too.

We won't have a strong captain until we have a manager who can deal with the big and sometimes abrasive personalities. Wenger is happy enough with his nice guys.

Kos isn't a strong captain. Quiet as a mouse. I still remember the way he handled that Costa situation. But it comes back to the manager because he picked Merts as captain and Kos as vice.

But either way, we're talking about a 28 year old and a supposed World Class player. I get that some players need motivating but the very best in football are able to motivate themselves. They're able to adapt. That's what makes them world class.

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I don't think honestly we've had a strong vociferous captain since Tony Adams

Vieira had his strengths, but he wasn't a shouter or a natural leader, but he was smart enough to compensate for that (for example he would tell Sol Campbell to constantly shout at him if he thought that he wasn't doing a good enough job of protecting the back line)

He had the respect of the players, and even though the captaincy was given to him to stop him from leaving you would see in pre match warm ups that he'd be talking to the players.

Henry wasn't a great captain, he was too much of an individual and you could see him get very frustrated when players couldn't match his abilities.

Gilberto could have been given more time, but actually stripping him of the captaincy and giving it to Gallas was one of the few times Wenger has been ruthless with his decision making. Gallas was vociferous, but clearly a complete prick and unable to inspire people.

Fabregas did ok but was arguably too young.

Van Persie was just another sop to stop him from leaving which he did.

Arteta very smart but not a leader on the pitch

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Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

The issue i have with your argument is that it's not Binary, Wenger being the problem does not vindicate Ozil....and i hate to say it, he's my favourite player at the club because i love how he can see a pass that no-one else can, watching him from an aerial position at the Emirates the guy is a master of geometry.

But he isn't putting in the effort, Wenger is to blame for this but mainly because he hasn't dropped him. He was 25 when he joined us not a young kid, no matter how bad the pre match planning or the lack of tactics....players especially ones of his calibre should have the maturity to stand out and not hide away during matches.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Possibly Wenger's most shameful moment at the club. One of the most idiotic things he has done, in a catalogue of idiocy.

Read Ollie Holt's piece from this weekend. It really does capture very well where the club and the fans are now. Half the fan base is listening to idiots like Holt and eating it all up. After a decade of this shit any other manager at any other club would be vilified by this stage. Instead it's the job of some fans to cast around for any excuse or alternative scapegoat. Wenger can't cut it and hasn't been able to cut it for years? Easy solution! Get rid of Ozil.

I mean it's laughable. Do anything bar fixing the huge and obvious problem. Blame anyone except the guy who has been fucking it up for the last 13 years.

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Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

The idea Ozil is not putting effort in is pure nonsense. The problem is, he's becoming more and more frustrated and he's also appears t have taken a step back physically. But "effort", as measured in this shitty league, is not the problem. He's putting in the required shift but that's all he's doing right now. He's not playing effectively. Then again, neither is anyone else apart from Ox who has suddenly emerged as the most effective player on the pitch. I have a nasty feeling that's because he's fed-up too and has decided to put himself in the shop window. Pure speculation, but it seems odd he's suddenly stepped up when everyone else has disintegrated into chaos. He's the only guy that anyone could realistically point to now and say he's playing well. Nobody else is, particularly the defenders. I've heard people saying Mustafi has been playing well. It's amazing how people confuse rushing around the place like a headless chicken with playing well. Bellerin, Monreal and Gibbs have been atrocious. even Kos is well off his form. Amazingly we've managed to turn Cech into a poor keeper.

This is Wenger. 100%. There are far too many indicators all pointing to the same place. Get rid of him and we get back to a sane platform on which to build individual and team performances. Keep him here and it is pointless judging anything else. Pointless. Like wondering what effect a gnat would have if it landed on the bonnet of a car going over a cliff.

Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse. And even if they did, it would be just a different sort of bullshit because it depends who the opposition is. If you are up against the best team on the planet but they are playing a corpse at right back then that's where your plan is focused. Formations, tactics, in game changes, the correct answer is not some automatic and weird formation that mirrors something Pep did, the answer is not "false 9" or any other shitty punditry. The answer is - WHO ARE WE PLAYING? I recall seeing one guy say the problem is we have Plan A, Plan A, and plan A. That's the problem in a nutshell. That's why we can blow teams away and then see a total reversal. Once the opposition have Wenger figured out (and it isn't hard) it then comes down to individuals to try to claw that massive disadvantage back. When they don't do it week in, week out then fans blame them and give Wenger a free ride.

Eventually Wenger will go. When he does we'll see such a transformation at this club it will scarcely be believed. And it will be good, across the board. Because whoever comes in will surely at least pay attention to the basics that Wenger misses every week.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Really? ;) Do you really think that’s what I’m proposing after the many discussions had on the manger? Mate, you do remember our debates years back when it was me telling you the problem was Wenger but you were insistent it was Ivan and Stan that was holding Wenger back. You remember that, right? You’d defend him on daily and deflect the attention away in a similar way to what you’re doing now. The nerve! The majority of what I spent years debating with you, the mangers tactical flaws, him choosing not to spend despite having resources, having a manager more interested in defending the Board’s interests instead of the fans….every point I made back from around 2010 or whenever it was, you are now in full agreement with and are actually more militant than I ever was about wanting Wenger out. You should know better!

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Has this, or has this not been your main focus over the past months? Ozil this, Ozil that. But in the end it's not even an argument. There's a sane position and an insane position. The former is to rid ourselves of the major problem. The latter is to start ridding ourselves of our best players before tackling the major problem.

Here's a fan.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/02/11/arsena...ville-6441679/

And it goes all the way back to fat bastards like Martin Samuel and snidey little gits like Neil Ashton and their shitty agendas. StealingALiving.

Some fans have looked at a transfer fee and decided the player it is attached to must compensate for the whole shitfest that has engulfed the club. Is that how it works? A million things can be wrong but it's that one guy who isn't huffing and puffing and doing a Jimmy Bullard impersonation that needs to get canned?

I'll admit where Ozil has fallen short this season (and did it again in the previous post). But I'm not jumping onboard a press agenda and doing the lazy, not trying thing because that narrative is demonstrably false.

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.

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Another thing, all these experts in 4-3-3 and 4-2-1-6-3-7-5.2 formation, or whatever other shit they are on about. That's all they say! They don't ever say WHY these formations would be better or worse.

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Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

@NQ

I'm certain if Ozil was some unknown player you never heard of you wouldn't be cutting him so much slack. You're caught up in the press hype for sure.

So it's ok to discuss Walcott, Giroud, Coquelin, Ramsey and Mert's position in the team and limitations but not Ozil's? Why because you say he's world class?

It's best you steer clear of these conversations if you don't respect the tactical side of things. You're in no position to talk about Wenger's tactical flaws or team selection if you've got this sort of mentality.



Why has Ozil fallen short this season? From your perspective, why are you now saying that?

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I'm caught up in it? I think you are mistaking me with the Nevilles and Samuels and Ashtons that share YOUR opinion.

And don't be changing your argument mid-stream. "Ozil - Do we need him? I really don’t rate him as a playmaker and won’t lose any sleep if he leaves."

Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

If I had to hazard a guess I'd say for the same reason the rest of the team has fallen short. The idiot at the helm with his tip, tap bullshit and his "backs to goal" counter and his "only turn up for 45 minutes" energy plan and his total disregard for the opposition. Or put another way, I'd say it's for the same reason ALL of Wenger's post-Invincible teams have failed.

Solution? Get rid of Ozil?

The real question is why you are so determined to defend a non-starter of an argument.

We have 2 world class players for a new guy to start with, if Wenger ever leaves. Just forget about things improving while Wenger is here. Player changes, tactical changes, when was the last time that made any difference? In the last decade? When? Every single upturn in fortunes came about through sheer luck, circumstances forced on Wenger. He hasn't made a choice in 10 years that has moved this team an inch forward. So explain to me how getting rid of Ozil and replacing him with X, Y or Z is going to make a blind bit of difference?

At least with Ozil in the team you have somebody who can pass more than 2 yards sideways. Somebody who can do simple stuff like trap a ball. In case you haven't noticed, these very basic skills have deserted many of our players. So you want to take one area of quality that can sometime overcome the manager's sabotage? Why? Because you see 42million (Mustafi was how much?) and think this is it, he'll do it all by himself? And when he doesn't then it's time to make up stuff about him not trying and not being interested - okay so nobody claims to have been influenced by the media and yet it is the exact same bullshit they are pushing. Coincidence.

If you want to say Ozil's form has dropped off from earlier in the season then I don't disagree with that. If you want to say he looks a bit lightweight in terms of physical strength I'm okay with that too. But the lazy, doesn't care BS. No evidence of that whatsoever. Not a shred. All manufactured from the day he arrived by a bullshit media that has stuck to the same crap regardless of how he plays.

You go even further. Get rid. Don't need him. It's just silliness. We need more like him. It's a disgrace we only have 2 world class players in a stadium that was supposed to be a theatre for our ambitions as a top fight European club. But if 2 is all we have then let's bloody make sure we hang on to them in the hope somebody with half a clue can come in and use them.

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.

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This is how Wenger is going to get his new contract, with every little distraction from the main issue.

Here's the guy who is allegedly not pulling his weight.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-ma...tal_duels_%#90

Stats might not tell the whole story, but they can be used to dismiss a few of the myths that have built up around certain players. Because, as we all know, Ozil is lazy and Xhaka was a waste of money.

Coincidentally, I'm sure, these are two players who arrived here to a deluge of media bullshit. Mr StealingALiving and Mr Undisciplined. Both myths sold it seems. Ozil bests even Alexis in personal duels (not bad for a player not trying) and Xhaka has fewer yellows than Coquelin and Alexis. If you remove the two reds that were awarded under the special Xhaka Rule (a rule no doubt energised by media bullshit) he doesn't have a bad record at all. And obviously he's a considerably better player than Coquelin, although I'm sure some people would even argue that's not the case.

Sorry, not buying the lazy Ozil line for a minute. It's pure invention.

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

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Thank you. I hear people talk of Coquelin being one dimensional and limited, he's only able to defend but can't pass well but apoly the same argument to Ozil being one dimensional and the excuses come out as of he should be exempt from defending, scoring more goals..etc. It's frustrating watching Ozil because he's capable of so much more.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

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Okay, but these are different issues now. Wenger's blind favouritism we also know about.

If Ozil was a standout problem then it's fair to single him out, but that's far from being the case. There are plenty of players underperforming in this team (and squad) and all through the last decade there have been plenty of players performing below their potential in an Arsenal shirt. Occasionally (very, very occasionally) one player has managed to stand out and singlehandedly drag the team beyond Wenger's desperate lack of ambition. RvC (for most of a season), Alexis (for part of a season). Not Ozil, that's true. But also not Walcott. Not Giroud. Not Ox. Not ..., fill in whatever name you want. Fill in whatever price tag you want. And in the end, not even RvC's genuinely remarkable final season nor Alexis' purple patches have pulled us closer to a title challenge because the Wenger effect is so massive and all encompassing. The real complaint here seems to be hey, we paid a lot so now get out there and singlehandedly drag us beyond Wenger's lack of ambition. No luck there, so let's get rid of the whole team because they are just as guilty of failing to produce near on miracles.

It's the same old shit and it's the same old culprit. Here's Fabregas from 7 years ago. The article could have been written today and would still be valid on every point.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...big-games.html

Here's Ozil getting as frustrated as Fabregas.
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/watch-...-arsenal-fans/

Seven years between and not a damn thing has changed. This is intolerable and we really could chuck out the whole team and get a new one in and it wouldn't make the slightest difference. We would still be relying on individuals to produce those rare displays that somehow drag us out of the Wenger black hole, but worse, we'd be relying on them at a frequency we haven't seen since we had a team so packed full of fabulous players that even Wenger couldn't derail them.

I think it's fair to criticise players when they play poorly or don't put the effort in - which is why you'll see many comments good and bad about Ozil (and other players) in the match threads. But this new fashion to single Ozil out is a joke. A counterproductive joke too. There's a difference between saying, he played badly today, to getting on a player's case every week no matter how he plays.

Ozil is a player of superlative talent who is ducking out, I think there's a case he deserves to be singled out or at the very least when you have that much talent and it's not on show it shows far more glaringly than it does with players of lesser ability.

And I'm glad you've made the case for Fabregas, as I do think he definitely downed tools in his last season with Arsenal. Was he within his right to move on when it was abundantly clear that all he'd ever be was a big fish in a small pond at the fiefdom of Wenger yes, but at the same time it pisses me off immensely when such gifted players just can't be fucked to make the effort.

As I've said constantly it's not an either or, it's not Wenger or the players. Wenger casts a long shadow and for those players who are good but not great it's hard to emerge from it, but Fabregas, Van Persie, Ozil and Sanchez are exceptional players two put in the graft and bring their best onto the field, two have the reputation of letting games pass them by.

The game is repleat with examples of this, one of my favourite players from 15+ years ago was Alvaro Recoba, had the ability to single handedly change games in Inters favour, but the guy was a prick and clearly only turned up when he fancied it......and this is why a lot of his appearances were made from the bench.

English football media is very lazy and offer nothing but subjective cliches to make their points because most of John and Jane Q Public like subjective cliches.

That's the irony when you read what a Gary Neville, or Oliver Holt, or John Cross or the MOTD team says. They are the laziest people out there and yet they tell everyone these players need to work hard and play hard, etc.

I really wish people in the English sports media actually watched football instead of having their pre-written stories.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

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I don't even know how half the people on here keep up with the entirety of tripe put out by every facet of the media much less be affronted by it all. A lot of the stuff I see on this board is my first time of seeing it at all. Perhaps it's because I don't share the social media obsession most people do but I am surprised by just how much of it people keep up with.

Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

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Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

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Wasn't the theory a couple of season back that he wasn't doing well because we needed a better striker? Someone more mobile?

Now that we have that in the team in Sanchez, I would have expected Ozil's performances to hit another level but he's actually gone backwards.

I think the number 10 role is redundant. If the Sanchez as a false 9 is providing the assists as well as scoring, I think a more dominant and aggressive midfielder could make runs in behind the space Sanchez creates, as well as contribute more on defence and distribution.

Quote:

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Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

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Pretty much. This thread was created at the start of the season with that thought in mind. We're not a Real Madrid, but even if we had superstars across the team, losing Ozil wouldn't be a major blow because you have enough stars to pick up the slack or the money to buy a replacement and tinker with the tactics. I think the number 10 is becoming redundant and Ozil will have to adjust his game in the near future.

Would like to see Ozil under a different manager, he was brilliant at Madrid before he arrived, but they utilised him to his strengths, Wenger is incapable of that.

He's world class when on his game, but as mentioned he's not a leader and not a player who will drag his side from certain defeat, not every player is though. We need some leaders and have done for quite some time, that's definitely an issue for us, you do need a handful of players who can lift the rest when it's not happening for the team, Wenger doesn't think so however.

Tactically, what the heck do we do with Ozil under a different manager? Where does he play?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38995112

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"Bayern had 74% possession," said Sogut, who is Ozil's lawyer and representative. "How can someone in the No.10 position create chances if you don't have the ball?

"In these games people usually target a player who cost a lot of money and earns a lot of money - that is Mesut. But he can't be always be the scapegoat. That's not fair.

"Football is a team sport and Arsenal are not performing well as a team. Eleven players were on the pitch but Mesut was singled out for criticism. Was he the reason that Arsenal conceded five goals?

"It started before the match, throughout the week leading up to the game. People started discussing: 'Should he play? Should he be dropped?'.

"It was as if everyone knew Arsenal would not make it through and we needed a scapegoat. This is not right. You win as a team and you lose as a team."

'People say he has poor body language but that's how he is'

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur

Tactically, what the heck do we do with Ozil under a different manager? Where does he play?

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He will play on the Playstation

Ozil made 5 tackles yesterday

Coquelin made 0


This is Wengerball 2017

http://www.skysports.com/football/ne...at-real-madrid

Ozil :lol:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

http://www.skysports.com/football/ne...at-real-madrid

Ozil :lol:

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I saw that earlier and was trying to figure out why he'd speak about that now. It plays straight into the narrative he's not giving full effort.

Is he looking to be hounded out? Victim ploy? Or is he pointing out he's been accused of that shit before but has proved his doubters wrong?

Don't know. Hard to tell at a club that is so fundamentally broken.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

I saw that earlier and was trying to figure out why he'd speak about that now. It plays straight into the narrative he's not giving full effort.

Is he looking to be hounded out? Victim ploy? Or is he pointing out he's been accused of that shit before but has proved his doubters wrong?

Don't know. Hard to tell at a club that is so fundamentally broken.

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It was a part of his book.

Any more confirmation needed on this guy?

There is no way Ozil deserves a new contract. IMO he lacks aggression and fight, he is easily brushed aside and is a passenger in most of the big games. how can he demand 300k a week when he is one of our underachieving players? IMO we should sell him and get a replacement. There are loads of attacking midfielders who would improve us.

The problem is Wenger sees him as some kind of saviour and someone we cant lose. Bollox, Ozil needs to go. How long can you realistically wait for him to come good and produce what he can on a regular basis? he onto his 4th season and has shown zero progress. I remember when Walcott held the club to ransom and was given 100k a week despite being an average player, this canot happen again with Ozil (i know he is a quality player but he doesnt produce enough, nowhere near enough).

Careful. I have seen all the usual anti-Ozil stuff this morning. But the "Idiotic team selection by the moron Wenger" articles seem to be missing, along with the "Giroud, WTF" articles. Ozil was one of the better performers on Sunday, which is not to say he performed well, but when you have players like Giroud on the pitch and idiots like Wenger on the touchline it seems strange to be singling out players who at least got involved and have enough technical ability to kick a ball roughly towards a teammate.