Ozil - Do we need him?

[Marc Overmars]

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

[Niall_Quinn]

In all honesty i'd want him to stay to see if he will perform better under a better manager, but i don't necessarily buy that that's a given.

I don't in anyway question his ability, but sometimes players are wasters of their own talent and Ozil could simply be one of those.

In the past i have found the criticism of him on here a bit overblown, but frankly these last few months have caused me to re-assess that view.

I think it's a lazy criticism to say people are just influenced by the media rather than what they see with their own eyes, even if i can't be bothered to watch the matches live i tend to watch the full match again at some point and what you can see in Ozil is a player who gives up as soon as something doesn't immediately go his way, not getting angry or swearing the way he might have done last season....just shrugging his shoulders almost if he's dispossessed....that's not a confidence thing it's disinterest. And my argument is that if he really wants out of Wenger's fiefdom he'd put himself in the shop window with displays he is more than capable of, but frankly if anything i think he is more likely to stay than Sanchez if Wenger stays, to keep himself in an environment where he doesn't have to push or apply himself....very comfortable.

Again i think it's Wenger's fault, because he hasn't dropped Ozil....would that motivate him?......who knows.

This is how Wenger is going to get his new contract, with every little distraction from the main issue.

Here's the guy who is allegedly not pulling his weight.
http://www.squawka.com/comparison-ma...tal_duels_%#90

Stats might not tell the whole story, but they can be used to dismiss a few of the myths that have built up around certain players. Because, as we all know, Ozil is lazy and Xhaka was a waste of money.

Coincidentally, I'm sure, these are two players who arrived here to a deluge of media bullshit. Mr StealingALiving and Mr Undisciplined. Both myths sold it seems. Ozil bests even Alexis in personal duels (not bad for a player not trying) and Xhaka has fewer yellows than Coquelin and Alexis. If you remove the two reds that were awarded under the special Xhaka Rule (a rule no doubt energised by media bullshit) he doesn't have a bad record at all. And obviously he's a considerably better player than Coquelin, although I'm sure some people would even argue that's not the case.

Sorry, not buying the lazy Ozil line for a minute. It's pure invention.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

[Power n Glory]

Ozil is a fairweather. Supremely talented but we've seen enough highs and lows from him now to know he's likely to have just as many bad games as good. Now you can say that for most of our team but you can't hold Ozil up on a pedestal as world class then claim the rest of the team should be pulling their weight too if it's not working out for him, if he is truly as good as we think then expectation rightly comes with that.

Thank you. I hear people talk of Coquelin being one dimensional and limited, he's only able to defend but can't pass well but apoly the same argument to Ozil being one dimensional and the excuses come out as of he should be exempt from defending, scoring more goals..etc. It's frustrating watching Ozil because he's capable of so much more.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well to be fair, i think Xhaka has been judged prematurely.....we could have done with one of his vicious spiteful lunges on Eden Hazard, i think the red card against Swansea was ridiculous absolutely absurd, but i don't think he could complain too much about the one against Burnley.

I think his passing and tackling can be quite good, however.....yeah i think he was diabolical against both Everton and Man City.

Of course he's better than Coquelin, Coquelin is a bit of a one trick pony.....but again there's a difference between ability and effort.

Statistically this season we have won every game when Coquelin hasn't played

Whether you want to buy the Ozil is lazy line or not is irrelevant, it's abundantly clear he's not producing what he's capable of and there are plenty of examples of players being able to do that despite the manacle of Wenger....and i think ultimately when you know you will get picked no matter what he has decided there is no incentive for him to up his game.

Okay, but these are different issues now. Wenger's blind favouritism we also know about.

If Ozil was a standout problem then it's fair to single him out, but that's far from being the case. There are plenty of players underperforming in this team (and squad) and all through the last decade there have been plenty of players performing below their potential in an Arsenal shirt. Occasionally (very, very occasionally) one player has managed to stand out and singlehandedly drag the team beyond Wenger's desperate lack of ambition. RvC (for most of a season), Alexis (for part of a season). Not Ozil, that's true. But also not Walcott. Not Giroud. Not Ox. Not ..., fill in whatever name you want. Fill in whatever price tag you want. And in the end, not even RvC's genuinely remarkable final season nor Alexis' purple patches have pulled us closer to a title challenge because the Wenger effect is so massive and all encompassing. The real complaint here seems to be hey, we paid a lot so now get out there and singlehandedly drag us beyond Wenger's lack of ambition. No luck there, so let's get rid of the whole team because they are just as guilty of failing to produce near on miracles.

It's the same old shit and it's the same old culprit. Here's Fabregas from 7 years ago. The article could have been written today and would still be valid on every point.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...big-games.html

Here's Ozil getting as frustrated as Fabregas.
https://www.dreamteamfc.com/c/watch-...-arsenal-fans/

Seven years between and not a damn thing has changed. This is intolerable and we really could chuck out the whole team and get a new one in and it wouldn't make the slightest difference. We would still be relying on individuals to produce those rare displays that somehow drag us out of the Wenger black hole, but worse, we'd be relying on them at a frequency we haven't seen since we had a team so packed full of fabulous players that even Wenger couldn't derail them.

I think it's fair to criticise players when they play poorly or don't put the effort in - which is why you'll see many comments good and bad about Ozil (and other players) in the match threads. But this new fashion to single Ozil out is a joke. A counterproductive joke too. There's a difference between saying, he played badly today, to getting on a player's case every week no matter how he plays.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ozil is a player of superlative talent who is ducking out, I think there's a case he deserves to be singled out or at the very least when you have that much talent and it's not on show it shows far more glaringly than it does with players of lesser ability.

And I'm glad you've made the case for Fabregas, as I do think he definitely downed tools in his last season with Arsenal. Was he within his right to move on when it was abundantly clear that all he'd ever be was a big fish in a small pond at the fiefdom of Wenger yes, but at the same time it pisses me off immensely when such gifted players just can't be fucked to make the effort.

As I've said constantly it's not an either or, it's not Wenger or the players. Wenger casts a long shadow and for those players who are good but not great it's hard to emerge from it, but Fabregas, Van Persie, Ozil and Sanchez are exceptional players two put in the graft and bring their best onto the field, two have the reputation of letting games pass them by.

The game is repleat with examples of this, one of my favourite players from 15+ years ago was Alvaro Recoba, had the ability to single handedly change games in Inters favour, but the guy was a prick and clearly only turned up when he fancied it......and this is why a lot of his appearances were made from the bench.

[mastermind84]

English football media is very lazy and offer nothing but subjective cliches to make their points because most of John and Jane Q Public like subjective cliches.

That's the irony when you read what a Gary Neville, or Oliver Holt, or John Cross or the MOTD team says. They are the laziest people out there and yet they tell everyone these players need to work hard and play hard, etc.

I really wish people in the English sports media actually watched football instead of having their pre-written stories.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Again it all seems to be because the media talking heads are saying it, it has to be demonstrably untrue. Who cares what their motivations/agendas are?, i don't watch Sunday Supplement, most of the time i don't read what John Cross, Martin Samuel et al have to say because i don't care.....if i can motivate myself to watch games i don't listen to the pre/post match punditry, I haven't watched match of the day in years so in that respect I have no idea what they think about Ozil in the first place.

Wenger's lack of tactical nous, lack of motivational ability i am sure contributes to Ozil looking disinterested on the pitch, but i repeat a player of his calibre shouldn't need Daddy draping an arm around his shoulder telling him what he needs to do. I love Ozil as a player i really do, there have been times where it's a privilege to watch him play.

But he has been consistently one of the most underperforming players in the side for two-three months now, and that's because he's always in the side no matter how badly he performs. If Wenger's shortcomings were affecting him that badly wouldn't he be going out of his way to push himself if only to put himself in the shop window, as much as i think Van Persie is a scumbag for going to United.....there was certainly no dropping of his level when he stayed fit

And Sanchez has poor games mainly because he is being shoved out wide left by Wenger, but the games where you can say this guy isn't trying are very few and far between.

Would a better manager be getting more out of Ozil?....probably but we are stuck with what we are stuck with, and arguably whoever is the coach we have to question the motivations of a player who only seems to want to up his game when he feels like it. Reminding me currently of a much more expensive and more talented Laurent Robert.

I don't even know how half the people on here keep up with the entirety of tripe put out by every facet of the media much less be affronted by it all. A lot of the stuff I see on this board is my first time of seeing it at all. Perhaps it's because I don't share the social media obsession most people do but I am surprised by just how much of it people keep up with.

Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

[Power n Glory]

Why has Ozil fallen short?

It's incredible. Wenger provides another shit show of a season, virtually all the players fail to turn up and the question is... Why has Ozil fallen short?

Wasn't the theory a couple of season back that he wasn't doing well because we needed a better striker? Someone more mobile?

Now that we have that in the team in Sanchez, I would have expected Ozil's performances to hit another level but he's actually gone backwards.

I think the number 10 role is redundant. If the Sanchez as a false 9 is providing the assists as well as scoring, I think a more dominant and aggressive midfielder could make runs in behind the space Sanchez creates, as well as contribute more on defence and distribution.

Without wading too much into this very extended Ozil debate I have come to the conclusion that he is not the sort of player that is going to drag a poor/mediocre or low on form team out of their funk.....but he is the type to really make the qualities of a top team count.

Unfortunately for him...when you are as talented as he is....you don't get points for having the vision and ideas he has unless you have the execution to match, so he is rightfully getting a little scrutiny, though he isn't the only one playing badly, clearly.

Pretty much. This thread was created at the start of the season with that thought in mind. We're not a Real Madrid, but even if we had superstars across the team, losing Ozil wouldn't be a major blow because you have enough stars to pick up the slack or the money to buy a replacement and tinker with the tactics. I think the number 10 is becoming redundant and Ozil will have to adjust his game in the near future.

[Özim]

Would like to see Ozil under a different manager, he was brilliant at Madrid before he arrived, but they utilised him to his strengths, Wenger is incapable of that.

He's world class when on his game, but as mentioned he's not a leader and not a player who will drag his side from certain defeat, not every player is though. We need some leaders and have done for quite some time, that's definitely an issue for us, you do need a handful of players who can lift the rest when it's not happening for the team, Wenger doesn't think so however.