When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Because the whole set up at Chelsea is a complete mess and whatever guy wants to self harm enough to take on that job is invariably the lightning rod when it goes wrong.

I’m not saying Anyone but Arteta, because there are clearly people out there with bigger egos than him. But the point is someone of that personality type wouldn’t take up the role of head coach because they would want to be the Daddy.

Nothing worthwhile is without risk, you would have to have a set up at the club that could accommodate the model I prescribe, and would be a case of getting the right people in all the key positions. What I’m trying to do (and obviously not succeeding at) is weening people off this idea of the Manager being this singular agent of change….i don’t think it has to be that way and it’s harmful when it is.

I even explained to the idiot getting cross with me yesterday evening that Arteta could do the job if he had it within him to swallow his pride, go back to being the head coach and be prepared to shit can his galaxy brained idiosyncrasies


I don’t think he’s capable of that though. That’s not even a dig at him…I wouldn’t be capable of it….id see it as an insult

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See I don't disagree with most of what you say in this post. My point has always been that while solutions can look attractive in theory, the reality is that we need to be careful what we wish for. Your point about having to have the right set up, (not to mention good decision making as well as a significan't slice of luck) on a managerial/head coach appointment that sees us push on from here illustrates the number of things that the club would have to get right.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t know because as I say I’m utterly convinced that it’s pointless to rank managers, when the success they have is largely dependent on the club they manage. I suppose the difference is between managers who are totally incompetent and egotistical and ones who can do what their told.

I think though Klopp stands out as the best coach because he was in the title race so long last season with a team that had absolutely no right to be there, and what’s more he left the blueprint for someone to succeed in his stead when Man City collapsed and Arsenal glued their own dick to their belly.

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Maybe so - but as there is no other way 'objectively' to assess managers then anything else becomes meaningless because it is then simply a question of personal preference. Letters questioned whether it is obvious that Arteta is one of the best managers around. I think it is obvious - at least that he is regarded as such. And if rankings are not your thing, I ask again whether people think he would get a job at a top club if he left. Barring an utter implosion at Arsenal - which I don't think is going to happen - he almost certainly would.

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Originally Posted by IBK

See I don't disagree with most of what you say in this post. My point has always been that while solutions can look attractive in theory, the reality is that we need to be careful what we wish for. Your point about having to have the right set up, (not to mention good decision making as well as a significan't slice of luck) on a managerial/head coach appointment that sees us push on from here illustrates the number of things that the club would have to get right.

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It does but for me it’s chemotherapy, kill or cure…there is no alternative at this point. Arteta is despite the objections to me using the word a cancer or more precisely a tumour, an obstructive mass. You’ve only to speak to my sister in law to know of the horrendous side effects cancer treatment had on her. But I don’t see any alternative. To say we should be grateful for where we are is malignant thinking. Our ambitions have to be limitless and our willingness to do what needs to be done to meet these ambitions also limitless.

Arteta as I said was given a green light to take the title when Rodri was injured, he stalled on the grid. The pressure was too much, and instead he’s blamed refereeing decisions and injuries.

He’s the Eddie Irvine in 1999 of premier league managers…there’s no Schumacher this time round but still going to fuck it up, and Liverpool are the Mikka Hakkinen…not great but they’ll take the title for a second time.

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

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If that's what the European rankings say then it's a fact, not something I can agree or disagree with. Do I agree he should be in that top 5 or 10...I'm not super-convinced.
I would note that for decades England have been near the top of the world rankings with no sign that they'll do much of note in the finals of a tournament. I'm a bit sceptical of those kinds of rankings.
I don't know what they are based on but the money we've spent has to be factored in to any assessment of him.
It's like Pep. Sure, he's a good manager but he's not exactly done what, say, Clough did at Forest or what Santo is doing there now.
It's certainly possible to spend money without improving the team as Utd are showing to hilarious effect, but I'm not sure Arteta is working miracles.

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Originally Posted by Letters

If that's what the European rankings say then it's a fact, not something I can agree or disagree with. Do I agree he should be in that top 5 or 10...I'm not super-convinced.
I would note that for decades England have been near the top of the world rankings with no sign that they'll do much of note in the finals of a tournament. I'm a bit sceptical of those kinds of rankings.
I don't know what they are based on but the money we've spent has to be factored in to any assessment of him.
It's like Pep. Sure, he's a good manager but he's not exactly done what, say, Clough did at Forest or what Santo is doing there now.
It's certainly possible to spend money without improving the team as Utd are showing to hilarious effect, but I'm not sure Arteta is working miracles.

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Firstly, the point you took issue with was whether Arteta was clearly an excellent manager. I've given as 'objective' a case as I can for this, that I think is sound. You can agree, disagree or (pedantically) claim that you you can't if this a fact, but these rankings are based on both facts and opinions. Nevertheless, they are an indication of what the football community thinks of managers' relative strenghts.

You know that I'm aligned with you re misgivings about whether Arteta can take us where we want to go...and agree that this has to be assessed at the end of the season. But I said that he was an excellent manager, not a generational one. Guardiola is generally regarded as one of the best of all time - and whether or not you disagree with this, he has certainly revolutionised football at times in terms of new tactics/ways to approach the game. Also, his 'greatness' is not generally regarded as diminished because of the funds he has had at his disposal.

Of course at its most basic, the team with the most talent is likely to be more successful, but even by this metric, Areta has over-performed, as we are 4th highest spenders (expenditure - not net spend) over a 5 years period (interestingly, this season we are 10th highest, only just above Nottingham Forest), so if we are assessiong our manager based on pure spending we are currently way exceeding the money table).

We also need to factor in the base we started at. This goes both for transfer fees - we were in such a mess when Arteta joined that we had completely to overhall our squad (unlike Citeh and Liverpool) and had dross that was difficult to shift (partly caused by years of under-performance that translates into player value). So merely looking at the figures creates a misleading picture. But also our manager. He was a rookie - and this has to be factored into his performance - which is the more impressive for this.

I think Arteta would definitely get a top job after us, I can see him at Madrid or Bayern, however that is perhaps more to do with the trend of hiring promising young coaches with perceived high ceilings. I mean, Kompany got the Bayern job and I don’t think anyone would say he’s a better coach than Arteta.

Arteta has done a very good job for us but I would stop short of saying a great job unless this journey ends in a league title which is looking highly unlikely, for this season anyway.

I don’t think we’ll know how good he really is until he works elsewhere. 5 years ago Pochettino left Spurs as one of the most highly regarded coaches in Europe but hasn’t done anything of note since.

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Originally Posted by IBK

I think so. When you look at European manager rankings he is consistently in the top 10 or even 5. Do you disagree?

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Well according to UEFA Manager of the year awards, he's only been able to break into the top list, once in the last 5 years, which was the 02-03 campaign, which most people will agree was rightly deserved (his best campaign IMO).

He didn't break into the list last year (totally agree with this) but only 6 nominees were announced.

Interesting to note that across the years a lot of managers who made it into the list still got the sack or were pushed out and in the in the EPL we got names like De Zerbi, Solsjkaer, Tuchel, Moysie and Klopp.

Looking at past members of the list, it's likely he'd get a big club after leaving us as you suggested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA...the_Year_Award

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Well according to UEFA Manager of the year awards, he's only been able to break into the top list, once in the last 5 years, which was the 02-03 campaign, which most people will agree was rightly deserved (his best campaign IMO).

He didn't break into the list last year (totally agree with this) but only 6 nominees were announced.

Interesting to note that across the years a lot of managers who made it into the list still got the sack or were pushed out and in the in the EPL we got names like De Zerbi, Solsjkaer, Tuchel, Moysie and Klopp.

Looking at past members of the list, it's likely he'd get a big club after leaving us as you suggested.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/UEFA...the_Year_Award

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There are various different rankings - from various sources (some more credible than others) - that have Arteta in the top ten (or even 5). I was trying to make the point that in teh wider football world he is well regarded as an excellent manager. As you point out, reputations can rise or fall, and I think that why this issue is one of the best debated points on GW for a while is that we can all see that we are at a crossroads with Arteta. Although this is all relative, we are currently in one of the trickiest situations he has been in under him.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I don’t think there is this smug superiority about being British.

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That's the most palpably ludicrous thing you've said so far and boy is there a high bar

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

5 years ago Pochettino left Spurs as one of the most highly regarded coaches in Europe but hasn’t done anything of note since.

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Yes and which proves he got lucky at spuds with a young and talented team which clicked, which I've consistently said dating back to the time

Perhaps the same happened with Arteta in the last two seasons, that may have been his Ponce golden era right then and there