Sp*rs match reaction

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

A good manager would be able to replicate what brought him success. Realise what it was and build on it. Why has he not won a league since the demise of the invincibles?. He may be a good manager but definitely not a great one. Great managers win great things and do it consistently. He was lucky with his squad of 1996-2004. History proves it.

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Lucky with a squad mainly of his own building who he turned into better players

Read Adams’ autobiography. He said there was no way he’d have lasted another six years in top flight football without Wenger

The season after the invincibles, Chelsea came in and set a record for premier league points

No Wenger isn’t at the level of Mourinho at his best. Nor will he go down as one of the greatest managers of all time.

But to say it was just luck is disingenuous. Yes we’d done well under Graham but Graham became stale and we were nowhere by the time Wenger took over as manager, certainly not champions in waiting.

His sell by date ran out years ago and instead of recognising this the club gave him unparalleled control over the club.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

I'm not blaming the strikers or Ozil or Mkhitaryan, I'm not blaming any of the players any more because it doesn't matter what players we put out, we see the same result over and over and over again. When our opponents allow Wenger to play his pitter-patter bullshit bore ball our technical players make the old goat look good. But when the opponents aren't accommodating, all the eye of the needle, 200 passes to get to goal shit doesn't stand a chance of success and Wenger is entirely clueless as to how to change things, so he never does.

His two tricks which pass as Plan B are to bring defenders on to replace forwards when we are leading (thus breaking up our play and putting the pressure on us because we can't defend to save our lives), or lobbing on every attacker he has an hoping for the best when we need to grab a goal back. A monkey could come up with similar childish plans, why do we need to pay somebody 10 million quid to do what a 5 year old who plays FIFA could do?

He's the only manager I can think of who could fail to get a performance out of a striker like Lacazette and then repeat the astonishing act by getting nothing form Aubameyang. He's got TWO Ozil's now, and can't get anything from either.

And he thought we were dominating and should have had the game won in the first half, btw. That's how delusional he is. So he can't even see there's a problem. That's the worst part. That's why he'll happily roll Xhaka and Elneny out again and expect some sort of result from that insanity.

It's sounds like the worst kind of bullshit when an armchair fan starts telling a 1,000 game manager how things should be done, and in most cases it's just that - bullshit. But in Wenger's case it's perfectly legitimate. Obviously the guy has had some sort of mental issue but has somehow managed to hang on to his job for a decade without having the forst clue what's going on. His reputation has carried him through the farce - like Peter Sellars in Being There, ever see that film? Where everyone up to the president is fooled into thinking a retarded gardener is a guru?

Well Wenger has been mistaken by almost everyone as a competent football manager. All the evidence says otherwise, but that myth surrounding him has prevented anyone from speaking the truth.

He's so out of his depth it would be comical, if we weren't the fans on the receiving end. It must be fucking hilarious for fans of other clubs to watch. An old dinosaur mumbling away - don't pass it to the fast guy, pass it short into congested space, and if they press, pass it to the man under most pressure, and keep doing that for the whole match! Pure genius. He must be a guru. Surely? Because the alternative would be horrifying.

And is.

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Entertaining thread, at least far more captivating than the shite I had to watch yesterday.

Anyway, I think NQs post pretty easily sums up our problems.... it's not the players (though Granite has to be the most overrated piece of crap to ever put on the shirt) and IMHO has never been.

Despite what I witnessed yesterday, I'd still take our squad over theirs.

Despite all the rubbish the press is saying I'd still take our £100 million strike force over good ol Harry.

And yes comparing Ozil to any spurs player is ridiculous to me and any footballing opinion I'd respect.

However the point remains that even if our Pied Piper, added Messi and Ronaldo to this squad which he has carefully moulded in his image, I do not believe we would win anything of significance..... and I have been certain of this for quite sometime now.

So yeah though we should call out players for their performances (and I can't stress that name Xhaka enough), it would be silly and hypocritical of any true Arsenal Fan not to call out the individual who has:

1. Not been able to construct a proper defence since the last of GG's men retired more than a decade ago.

2. Failed to sort out our DM issue since his lucky gamble Song payed off.

3. Failed to bring any keeper at his peak to this club while all of our rivals have had multiple goal keeping legends.

4. A coach who spits at the term "balance" and could sign and play a team composed of only CMs if his dream of emulating Barca tippy tappy could finally come true.

5. A coach who always snubbed his nose at experienced players, spending money and any trophy but the CL; who has now done a full 360 with his grand old £300 million squad looking forward to Thursday night football and the Mickey Mouse cup as their salvation!!!

I could go on and on but it's getting painful realising how far we've fallen and how long it has been going on for!

So in summary, nothing will change till the era of Wenger is over... blaming the players for days like yesterday is a cop out... we honestly need to insist our future starts now and we end this tragic saga this season.

P.S. Who knows, if we'd slayed our mythical monster earlier, we might have still had Alexis with us..... doesn't it hurt to always hear our stars say they left us because they needed to win things of significance (Henry, Fabregas, Sanchez etc) ??? Do we really want history to repeat itself again???

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Originally Posted by HCZ

Come on let’s stop with this trying to rewrite history just because Wenger should have gone years ago

You don’t win three premier league titles by dumb luck, just as in the same way you don’t lose 14 games from 26 on the road just as a result of bad luck.

It’s daft to suggest he was never a very good manager.

Van Gaal in his day was a better manager than Wenger but at Man United he was terrible, every dog has his day.

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Wenger could only have achieved what he achieved at that particular moment in time. A lot of his legacy hinges on being in the right place at the right time. One-off opportunities existed that fit his philosophy perfectly. Fitness, clean living, technical excellence when none existed in the English game, high energy football and energy conservation, diet, and so on and so on. And extensive international scouting networks.

All these things have become the norm now. Wenger was first on the scene so he'll always be credited, and rightly so, for taking the game forward. The advantages he brought were essentially lifestyle and technology shifts that gave him a competitive edge as a result. As soon as his methods were copied elsewhere those advantages disappeared and it was then Wenger was exposed as having no acumen for what happens once you get your well fed, well excercised, fit, powerful and healthy players onto the pitch. This is where great players like Adams and Campbell and Henry and Vieira Gilberto and Bergkamp and Pires carried him.

And then - absolute disaster. Wenger decided he was up to the task of emulating the football being played in Spain. Absolute farce ensued and has been with us ever since. And the real neglect has been Wenger's inability to admit his monumental mistake. He's persisted long past the point a fool would continue. He's a zealot now, worshipping himself. He's right, everyone else is wrong and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise. This is why I say he has mental problems.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger could only have achieved what he achieved at that particular moment in time. A lot of his legacy hinges on being in the right place at the right time. One-off opportunities existed that fit his philosophy perfectly. Fitness, clean living, technical excellence when none existed in the English game, high energy football and energy conservation, diet, and so on and so on. And extensive international scouting networks.

All these things have become the norm now. Wenger was first on the scene so he'll always be credited, and rightly so, for taking the game forward. The advantages he brought were essentially lifestyle and technology shifts that gave him a competitive edge as a result. As soon as his methods were copied elsewhere those advantages disappeared and it was then Wenger was exposed as having no acumen for what happens once you get your well fed, well excercised, fit, powerful and healthy players onto the pitch. This is where great players like Adams and Campbell and Henry and Vieira Gilberto and Bergkamp and Pires carried him.

And then - absolute disaster. Wenger decided he was up to the task of emulating the football being played in Spain. Absolute farce ensued and has been with us ever since. And the real neglect has been Wenger's inability to admit his monumental mistake. He's persisted long past the point a fool would continue. He's a zealot now, worshipping himself. He's right, everyone else is wrong and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise. This is why I say he has mental problems.

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You could make that point about literally anyone or anything

Every manager who has success is someone of their time. The ones that stand alone are the ones that adapt and actually in that sense this is why someone like Mourinho is not as good as Ferguson.

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Originally Posted by HCZ

Lucky with a squad mainly of his own building who he turned into better players

Read Adams’ autobiography. He said there was no way he’d have lasted another six years in top flight football without Wenger

The season after the invincibles, Chelsea came in and set a record for premier league points

No Wenger isn’t at the level of Mourinho at his best. Nor will he go down as one of the greatest managers of all time.

But to say it was just luck is disingenuous. Yes we’d done well under Graham but Graham became stale and we were nowhere by the time Wenger took over as manager, certainly not champions in waiting.

His sell by date ran out years ago and instead of recognising this the club gave him unparalleled control over the club.

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Wengers success was based on a number of things including things he certainly inherited:

1) A great defensive unit, and top top keeper, with real leadership qualities, players who had a massive desire to win (had won stuff) and would do anything for the cause, their workrate was also phenomenal
2) Bergkamps brilliance

No doubt he added to that with Vieira/Petit in particular, but this was largely driven by his knowledge of the French market, something that in those days nobody else knew much about as scouting wasn't s developed.

The above very much was inherited by the subsequent team as well, they learnt from the likes of Adams/Bould/Keown, learnt to be winners, learnt to work as a team, learnt to be leaders on the pitch, now yes he did make some top signings like Henry and Campbell (the latter in particular was known to be an amazing player and fitted in well with Wengers policy of not spending a lot), Henry again was a top talent but yes Wenger did develop him, Pires was one of trhe best talents in France, we signed him as he chose us over Real which proves how good he was.

I don't buy the building his own team from scratch to be honest, whilst it's true if you look at it in basic terms, many of those players benefited from those that came before them as well, we saw what happened when he got too hasty and got rid of all the experienced top quality players who had the winning mentality, his teams repeatedly failed to hit the same heights.

I'll say his signings were better in those days though, at least some, at least he went in for top talent, this may be because it was cheaper in relative terms and this sat better with him, but those players also came because the counter attacking football we played was very easy on the eye, which he did introduce however he then turned his back on it and since then we've won little and he's refused to go back to it.

My take (and you won't like this) is that yes he did some very good things and extended certain players careers with his knowledge of diet, training techniques etc (ironically in latter years his players had more injuries than anyone) and brought in some very good players, but his success also came due to the players he inherited, had he had to rebuild the whole team and not had the likes of Adams etc, none of those successes would have taken place IMO, for two several reasons

a) He doesn't value leadership on the pitch
b) Is incapable of building a decent defence as his methodoly has always been based on attacking
c) Wouldn't have signed the right blend of players with the correct mentality, the only reason our latter teams won was due to what some of them learnt from Adams and co.

You might argue this isn't correct, but as mentioned earlier, if this wasn't the case he'd have repeated some of this success in some shape or form in the 13 years after that ast major success.

Top managers don't just become average overnight, they repeat their successes, history shows this. Very overated manager IMO.

Wenger can't even be considered a top manager. All the top managers have had success in Europe. Even with possibly the best team this country has ever seen, Wenger could never crack Europe. You can't be considered a top manager with his laughable European record.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger could only have achieved what he achieved at that particular moment in time. A lot of his legacy hinges on being in the right place at the right time. One-off opportunities existed that fit his philosophy perfectly. Fitness, clean living, technical excellence when none existed in the English game, high energy football and energy conservation, diet, and so on and so on. And extensive international scouting networks.

All these things have become the norm now. Wenger was first on the scene so he'll always be credited, and rightly so, for taking the game forward. The advantages he brought were essentially lifestyle and technology shifts that gave him a competitive edge as a result. As soon as his methods were copied elsewhere those advantages disappeared and it was then Wenger was exposed as having no acumen for what happens once you get your well fed, well excercised, fit, powerful and healthy players onto the pitch. This is where great players like Adams and Campbell and Henry and Vieira Gilberto and Bergkamp and Pires carried him.

And then - absolute disaster. Wenger decided he was up to the task of emulating the football being played in Spain. Absolute farce ensued and has been with us ever since. And the real neglect has been Wenger's inability to admit his monumental mistake. He's persisted long past the point a fool would continue. He's a zealot now, worshipping himself. He's right, everyone else is wrong and no amount of evidence will convince him otherwise. This is why I say he has mental problems.

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Completely agree with this, as you say right place, right time, not so much about him being a great manager, as I've always said he's been a very lucky manager, although that finally seems to have run out.

If these successes hadn't been simply down to some advantage over the competition and luck he would have repeated some of it by now, he hasn't.

Speaking of not blaming the players, Petr Cech needs a punch in the face for saying we lost the game because of the chances Lacazette missed. Cuntish behaviour.

Have a word with your fucking defence, Petr Cech! How long has it been since you kept a clean sheet? How comes he hasn't did shit about Kos and Mustafi not marking Harry Kane? How many more games must it go on for? We didn't deserve a point from that game and as much as loss hurts, Wenger didn't deserve to be saved by a player he's managed poorly from day one.

I hate the manager but some of the players need shooting. Fuck em.

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Originally Posted by HCZ

You could make that point about literally anyone or anything

Every manager who has success is someone of their time. The ones that stand alone are the ones that adapt and actually in that sense this is why someone like Mourinho is not as good as Ferguson.

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How so? How many managers are there that have so little ability to organise a team or devise effective tactics? And if there are any, how long have they lasted?

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Wenger can't even be considered a top manager. All the top managers have had success in Europe. Even with possibly the best team this country has ever seen, Wenger could never crack Europe. You can't be considered a top manager with his laughable European record.

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Agreed, his European record is a shocker, the team we had in those days should have won the CL, the fact they didn't is 100% down to him and his inability to give players that real belief they can do it. Never forget the year Chelsea knocked us out, that was our year and for me one of the worst defeats (in terms of how I felt) to take.