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:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
This is what I have been telling everyone but people here keep saying he is best as winger/wide forward. Reus style of play is perfect for Wengerball, fake no9 who can play anywhere up front and deadly in the penalty box.
Love Muller but we don't need him (Munich will never sell him). We got Ramsey who just turned 23 today and Eisfield looks set to replicate Muller (they are carbon copy in style and the way they time their run into the box).Quote:
Originally Posted by Darknight02
So relieved by this result, but we have to take some lessons from it. Wenger cannot play the likes of Giroud, Ramsey, Ozil into the ground and expect us to perform to the level our football requires. We need to muster more directness and tempo to put games to bed because for all our possession in the first half we were profligate and then West Ham - despite being down at the bottom of the league and finding it hard generally to score -should have been 2-0 up and we were unlikely to come back from that. Better teams would have punished us.
Poldi was a game changer but would he have been on the pitch but for Wenger's hand being forced by injury? Key players need resting and Newcastle will be a harder test than this lot.
Some people thought it was debatable that we needed a first choice striker over Giroud a couple of months ago. Theo and Poldolski are good players but not great ones. There's a lot of room for improvement there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
I agree with you if we had to choose between a £40m CF and a £40m wide forward. We've already spent that kind of money on the wrong player. A lot of us spent the summer saying that we didn't need Ozil and that we needed one or two forwards and in the end we've had to move Cazorla on the left to accommodate Ozil, resulting in Santi stinking up the place on the left. It hasn't worked.
We don't even need to spend that kind of money, before the last transfer window I didn't think we'd spend more than £20m on one player. We can still find great players for that price, you just have to look harder.
As for playing Reus as the CF - he definitely has all the raw ingredients but you can never tell unless it's tried. Henry was a winger too before he joined us.
:penguin:
:gp:
So Ramsey is out for the weekends and probably on the new years eve as well. Apparently Rozza also has a small injury.Quote:
It looks [serious]. It looks like a thigh strain. I don't know how serious the thigh strain is but the Christmas period certainly is over for him. It was his birthday today.
Not too upset about that. Would give Cazorla a chance to build up some form. And would give Ramsey a chance to have a rest and come back fresher given that he has gone off the boil a bit.
Mind you against City, Chelsea and again today, Ramsey continued to play some stunning through balls.
Rosicky's is minor. Hopefully he and Koscielny are back for Newcastle.Quote:
Originally Posted by milla
Why does it matter if Ramsey is out on New Year's Eve? :coffee:
The debate over our forward options is very different to our debate over our wide options....especially considering we have Cazorla, Podolski, Ozil, Walcott and Gnabry who can all do a convincing job wide and only 1 man who can do a convincing job at CF....and even that was up for more debate at the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Cazorla played a heck of a lot wide left last season. Even if we are accommodating Ozil by playing Santi left now, I think it is very unfair to attribute Santi's poor form to Ozil and 'shifting' Santi to a position he actually plays more times than not.
Henry was 6'2 had pace, power, and all the ball ability in the world. Reus doesn't have anything like the power or even pace. If we are suggesting giving him a free role (like Cronaldo or Bale at Spurs) then fine, but I really have been yet to be convinced by the idea of Reus as a CF in a 433. I just can't get my head round why so many think it's a great idea.
Think the injury to Rambo is a blessing in disguise. We have wheelchair coming back, Arteta, Santi, Flamini and Rosicky to play in the middle...
And Podolski is awesome :cloud9:
:yippee:
Was sat around a table of relatives passing around lumpy cold mashed potato when I heard the result.
Most of them are spuds too.
Irony at it's best.
:dance:
Alanis :bow:
Well he's fairly strong, quick, great with both feet & good in the air. He plays off or alongside Lewandowski quite a bit for Dortmund now so it wouldn't be alien to him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
I am sure I read he has a 40million buyout clause in his contract, I would say that is a fair valuation of him in the current market & he definitely has room to improve. I like him a lot, he's on the fringes of a being a truly world class player IMHO, just needs to find a bit more consistency. Saying that he has already delivered for both Dortmund & Germany and is pretty much first choice for Germany now.
I find it a little simplistic view, even if it would work in practice. Not sure it would serve him any better playing CF than him playing on the left. You have to be more than fairly strong to pull it off in the prem. You have to be a physical match for the Centre halves in the prem who are typically the strongest players in the division.....unless we are happy with our CF being totally physically dominated for the entire 90 minutes.
AT Dortmund he starts on the left....never mind what actually happens when they attack. If it is naturally his game to get beyond the lines and link up with another more powerful player then he can do so without actually starting as the CF imo.
I do find it strange that you believe 40 million to be a fair valuation considering some of the other views you've expressed. I don't think the valuation is too far north of what he is worth, but I'm not quite sure he is worth 40 million to our team as it is.
You can't expect Reus to operates like Girourd or Bendtner but much more like Suarez or Aguero is now. His quoted price is in EUR not GBP imo.
Dortmund won't let him go for much less than that.
If you want players of his quality, that's what you have to pay.
After Gotze and Lewandowski you can bet your house Dortmund will not let Reus go cheaply.
Oh, I do agree that getting a striker is a priority. Although technically we do have Podolski and Bendtner who can play as a CF too. As for our wide options you could say we can play Cazorla, Ozil, Rosicky, Ramsey, and Wilshere there but that's just playing players out of position, and they don't play there particularly well. It's like saying we can play Flamini at left back - we all know he can play there but we only want him there as cover in an emergency and not as a regular role over a season which our CAMs have been doing. Theo are Podolski are fine there but as I said before I don't think they are top level forwards and there is a lot of scope for improvement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Cazorla's best position for us is right behind the striker regardless of where he has played before. Even when he's playing well on the wing he plays far too deep and central. He gets freedom to move around but usually comes infield to play a bit of tippy tappy triangles in front of the opponent's box which only helps us keep possession and doesn't normally contribute to breaking them down. It also means that when Ozil gets the ball on the counter there's usually only two players in front of him - Giroud and Theo - because Cazorla's in line with him or drifting somewhere else when he receives the ball. That's a waste of Ozil's best talent with his vision, especially since Giroud is slow and always runs towards the ball. So basically by playing Santi there we are restricting our two best playmakers rather than getting the best out of them.
Reus isn't a speed freak like Henry was but he does have a very good turn of pace and acceleration. He's also got great balance and is hard to shake off the ball like a lot of 'small' European attackers nowadays. Physically he's certainly no worse than Suarez or RvP so I can't see that being an issue. It's hard how well he'd do without actually seeing him play there so I personally wouldn't sign him specifically as a CF. But as a wide forward he's lightyears ahead of anyone we've got so it's a no-brainer if we've got enough cash.Quote:
Henry was 6'2 had pace, power, and all the ball ability in the world. Reus doesn't have anything like the power or even pace. If we are suggesting giving him a free role (like Cronaldo or Bale at Spurs) then fine, but I really have been yet to be convinced by the idea of Reus as a CF in a 433. I just can't get my head round why so many think it's a great idea.
That's why I said to play CF 'convincingly'. I don't feel Walcott or Podolski have....least not for a lengthy period of time. Don't get me started on the great Dane. I was quite specific about our wide options too. I mentioned Cazorla, Ozil, Podolski, Gnabry and Walcott and not Rosicky, Ramsey or Wilshere because I feel the former group have played there convincingly and can continue to do so if asked to.
I will agree to disagree with many on Cazorla's positioning.
Suarez and RvP are tough boys. Anyone who has met RvP will tell you he has quite the stature and is 6'2 whilst Suarez has great balance, but also great strength and is constantly willing to knock anyone in the ground over to score, be it the opposition, the ref, the goaly, a little girl in the stand.... Anyone who points to Aguero or Tevez would be completely missing the fact both of those guys like Suarez give as good as they get and more so and both are powerful players. I've seen the pair of them regularly knock over defenders twice their size. Without that power they would be ineffective in that position and that is despite their ability as footballers.
The wide left position is probably the best served in the squad with Podolski, Cazorla and Ozil all able to play there so I am a little surprised quite so many would spend whatever it would take to sign Reus and playing him left or even more unbelievably CF.
Spot on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Im just glad we have so many grade A coaches and scouts on here.
Just a shame they cant use their skills and find a more sensibly priced prospect.
Until then, lets reserve the mega money for players adept in the position we require them for.
:gp: Agree with that. I don't think Cazorla has played so badly this season, he's just been ineffective on the flanks. There is no point in playing a tippy tappy player on the wing. It's problematic. Whenever Rosicky is played wide, he abandons that position completely and moves to the centre. We've seen Jack really struggle there and Cazorla hasn't struggled as badly but he's had no influence. We need direct wingers for that position. Someone that will take on his man and drive into the box, not drift in to play one twos.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Ozil is a mystery to me. He drifts all over the field and only manages to rack up 40/50 passes a game. That's not enough for a central player and he's not having the sort of influence I expected. Seems to me he needs a player like Rosicky or Cazorla next to him in the middle to find him but I really hate having to say that about a £40m world class talent. He needs to make things happen and in due time maybe he'll grow in confidence but I'm beginning to think he's not essential for the middle but moving him out wide will properly result in the same problem we have with Cazorla and what we've had with players like Hleb, Nasri and Arshavin.
We'll see how the next few weeks pan out but once again it looks like we have the square pegs in round holes problem. We have so many talented central players but not enough positions for them.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
:doh:Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
One more tough game at Toon then we can start resting players.
We have Cardiff at home then the FA cup game, some players can be given 2 weeks off until Villa away.
Should be a good month.
I think the idea is interesting if nothing else..... and I wouldn't mind if my reservations were proven unfounded by us actually signing the bloke :d ...but I do struggle with the logic behind it and don't think a strong case has been made.Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
Even if Reus, like Cronaldo was the flawless player in footballing ability and physical stature that some think him to be, who's to say the best position for him would be CF in a 433. Cronaldo has a free role at Madrid and ostensibly plays from the left without the need to be placed at CF.
If a player is geared as such to being able to best any opponent using any number of his attributes, then it usually doesn't matter where he starts, as long as he is given free reign; or rather, a free role.
That is why players like Suarez, Cronaldo, Bale, Messi can pretty much start anywhere. I don't think that Reus is quite of that ability, even if the actual argument from a few here is that he will be. The advantage of starting from wide is that you don't begin from a positioning which is close to the CB's who want to rough you up and unsettle you. It is far better if you have the time and space to run at players which you are afforded as a result of where you pick the ball up.
For me it is comparable to the reason I don't think Ramsey needs to start as the furthest midfielder forward in spite of his goal tally. If he starts from a deeper position he has the time and space to manoeuvre, ghost into advanced positions when it is unexpected, or run at defenders who are on the back foot.
no resting players against spurs. don't care that its the cup at all, its spurs and right now they are shit. lets fucking destroy their season by sending out the best team to hopefully thrash themQuote:
Originally Posted by She Wore A Red Ribbon
We can rest the likes of Giroud, Ozil etc as we have players like Podolski back now.
I'm pretty sure Podolski, Theo and even Bendtner could play CF to a decent enough level, but obviously several levels below the best in the business like Suarez or Aguero. But by the same logic Caz/Ozil can play nowhere near the level of the best wide forwards in the world, in fact they play the role completely wrong. Let me be clear, we both already agreed that a striker is the priority, I'm just using that to make my point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
For me Caz/Ozil don't play in the wide positions 'convincingly'. I would put them in the same group as Rosicky, Ramsey and Wilshere because, although they are better at it than those three due to their skill on the ball, they still fall into the same patterns of CAM play in front of the opponents rather than playing on the shoulder of their defence, running at and beating fullbacks and giving us a variation of play. They both do exactly the same thing the three CMs behind them do and It's all very slow and predictable. The fact that Wenger has consistently brought in the same type of player to play in those positions in the last eight years really grates - Hleb, Rosicky, Nasri, Arshavin. None of them were successful apart from Nasri to an extent, but even he played in a central position in his best season for us.
It's all about balance. I remember seeing Messi go shoulder to shoulder with Vidic, beating him off, staying on his feet and keeping the ball. He can pretty much do that to anyone and he's 5'6 and not particularly well built. I'm not sure what you think of Reus but he's definitely not a lightweight and height has nothing to do with it. And as for the pace, he comfortably beats both Suarez and RvP in that department.Quote:
Suarez and RvP are tough boys. Anyone who has met RvP will tell you he has quite the stature and is 6'2 whilst Suarez has great balance, but also great strength and is constantly willing to knock anyone in the ground over to score, be it the opposition, the ref, the goaly, a little girl in the stand.... Anyone who points to Aguero or Tevez would be completely missing the fact both of those guys like Suarez give as good as they get and more so and both are powerful players. I've seen the pair of them regularly knock over defenders twice their size. Without that power they would be ineffective in that position and that is despite their ability as footballers.
The wide left position is probably the best served in the squad with Podolski, Cazorla and Ozil all able to play there so I am a little surprised quite so many would spend whatever it would take to sign Reus and playing him left or even more unbelievably CF.
So why get him if we have players that can play there? The same reason we want a world class centre forward - he's a hell of a lot better than anyone we already have and would improve us significantly in an area we are weak in.
Podolski has been poor to say the least the few times he played CF. Walcott has been good in some games and completely ineffective in others, which is what you would expect from a player of his skills in that position. I'm not even going to mention the Dane.
I would really like the stat on how many games Cazorla played wide left last season to be public knowledge. I don't have it unfortunately. I fundamentally disagree with your view on him and Ozil though as I've intimated.
I think if you go back to Narsi's purple patch and note down the number of good games he had from the left you will be surprised. It is a myth in my opinion that he played better in that period in midfield. I acutely remember his best games coming when he started left.
Messi is one of a kind. There is no precedent for what many are suggesting Reus could do simply because it doesn't work effectively in practice. People are using players completely unlike him to build a case and that is because players like him don't play CF in a 433 in the prem imo. The fact you have to mention Messi at all does not help your argument. Reus is certainly no Messi and if he was I would be totally with you.
I know height is not the ball all end all of having power, which is why I used the examples of Tevez and Aguero who both have power. It's not about being lightweight or a powerhouse. You can be somewhere in between, but if you are, you have to have enough to avoid being dominated against big burly CB's in the prem. I'm not convinced Reus does or that his skills and talents are best served trying to give it back to centre halves over 90 minutes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
:penguin:
:gp:
Ironically Reus is probably the only player over Dortmund more unattainable than Lewandowski.....
To say he is a hell of a lot better than Cazorla, Ozil or Podolski on the left is a huge over statement imo.
It is what it is :cheer:Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve French
Another good win against a struggling side, but what frustrates me is the feeling that no matter how well we do in these games, it does not matter, because we struggle to beat the best teams, in this and other leagues. What this has meant in past seasons is that we enter a two week period of doom at some point, where we exit the champions league, one or both of the cups, and suffer crippling defeats against one of the "big teams" in the Premier Division.
We have got a very technically gifted midfield, but our options further forward are not so promising, and this is especially frustrating given we seem to finally have sorted out our defensive/defensive midfield issues with Merts, Flamini and Arteta doing well, and Kos and Sir Ches suffering fewer brain farts.
Giroud is an effective forward player in terms of bringing others in to play, but as a striker he lacks that little bit of extra quality to win games, and often fluffs his lines at crucial moments. On the wings Podolski and Walcott are inconsistent and often injured, and this leaves us having to play players out of position to cover. Instead of wondering if we should sign a winger OR a striker, Wenger should be looking to bring in both. Too often in recent games the difference between us and other teams has been that they have a top class striker, and we do not.
I would like to see us sign Reus AND Costa, and for Wenger to play Gnabry and Akpom on the bench instead of Bendtner, who does not want to be here.
As a short guy being hard to knock off the ball (which is what I was talking about rather than ability), Messi isn't a one of a kind. There are tons of them around including Gotze, Iniesta and Ribery. They're skinny midgets but they can make players like Essien look silly when they hold them off and shield the ball so effortlessly. Reus has that in his locker and has the ball control to boot.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Reus isn't even short at 5'11 and can handle the physical side of the game. Shorter strikers have succeeded in the Premier League like Owen, Defoe, Robbie Keane and even Wrighty. You dont have to be built like a tank.
He has a buy out clause so he is attainable, as long as he wants to leave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Yesterday's game is a case in point that we need another striker who can consistently finish off the chances we create.
Against sides like West Ham, it's fine as we will (as a general rule) create enough chances to win the game. But our goals to chances ratio is horrendous (I have no idea of the actual stat, but I assume I'm correct).
In the big games vs Chelsea etc, you only get a couple of chances, and you have to bury them of drop points. Early season we had that knack, but the last 6 games or so, we have really suffered for not having more finishing ability.
Hopefully Theo and Pod can provide more support to the out of form (in the scoring department) Giroud, but a striker is an absolute must on 1st January.
I thought we played well yesterday, first time in a while that I thought we played good football. I guess playing against a shit team helps!
Created loads of chances with some great moves, could've scored 6 if we were more clinical up front.
West Ham can't be that shit, they put 3 past Spurs...
:haha:
Giroud needs to be rested. You can see the frustration with all the misses. The first shot he hit well wide was telling and the look on Wenger's face says it all. He has decisions to make and he has to be ruthless with the team selection or we'll suffer. He doesn't want to shake up the core too much but we've had a few players underperforming for a while now. The timing of Pod and Walcott's return is perfect.
Thats on Wenger. Firstly he collects several similar types. Yes the midfielders are technically gifted to an extent (Wilshere and Ramsey struggle with basic technical things pretty often) but theres little balance. He could have added more athletic midfielders who could mix things up going foward let alone defensively but he has an obsession with a particular type.Quote:
Originally Posted by Underhill and over Grove
Secondly, even when fit we know Wenger likes at least one "technical" player on one of the wings so I doubt Walcott and Podolski have had much chance to impress in tandem. Yesterday his hand was forced thats all.
Wenger needs to break free of his possession addiction if an additional winger would chance things. Right now another winger would probably leave Podolski and Walcott on the bench and we'll again be looking for one man to fix our ills.
We had to do major restructuring over the summer. We let 20+ players go and had to reconfigure the dimensions of the squad. We bought in Ozil which elevated us back to the top, now is the time to sprinkle the squad with more top players, starting with a striker. This would make our options going forward more promising.
The first stage of restructuring is complete following the stadium move. We now move onto the second stage. Let's see what we do in the transfer window.