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I wouldn't be surprised if there was some sort of verbal agreement at some point last season between Wenger and Tommy to let him go. If there was there's no chance of Wenger going back on his word. Arsene has always been respectful to his players and I think he'll let Vermaelen go, even if he wants to keep him.
Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
If we have less defensive options then that is even more reason not to sell Vermaelen and replacing him won't be easy.....that is, if we want somebody of his level or better. Even if you think we should sell him it's not a case of there being every reason to sell him and no reason to keep him.
I imagine it's demotivating being on the bench but I imagine it is also demotivating knowing deep down your current level isn't good enough to be first choice for any top team or signing for a mediocre team to ensure you get first team football. Or it could simply be a source of motivation to get back to a better level?
It's not a given he will be and remain a 1st choice for Barca. He won't be happy but you can reasonably expect Vermaelen to be professional about it. I don't imagine he was that pleased with the club selling his best mate RvP to Manure but he kept his counsel pretty well then too.
He isn't an option as far as I am concerned, on the recent rare occasions he has come on, the mistakes in his game come with him. Can we really say he is a reliable third option?
I very much doubt he would start for Barcelona too but there is a certain ego attached with players when it comes to signing for a new team, I'd guess he'd be thinking he'll be given a fair chance to start, even if it doesn't actually turn out to be the case.
Plus at some point we will have to sell players, as much fun as it has been seeing us buy four players very early on, we're no different to any other club - we can't keep buying without somebody going. I think based on the limited contribution Vermaelen has given and when he has of what quality it has been, I think he should go.
The more I read, the more I think Wenger should go back to TV with some sort of plan they can both buy into that has him seeing out his contract here. With the amount of matches we face assuming CL qualification, it can't be that hard
We could adopt a '2 games on, 1 game off' rotation for the 3 CBs throughout the season?Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve French
Game 1: Koscielny - Mertesacker
Game 2: Koscielny - Vermaelen
Game 3: Vermaelen - Mertesacker
If everyone stays fit, then they'd probably get 30-40 games each following that system, and should stay nice and rested?
Guess if you are happy with Win 1 lose 2...Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
Wenger did rotate in areas where he felt he had depth last year. But Vermaelen only got a few starts when Mertesacker had the sniffles or Koscielny was out. Wenger just doesn't fancy him any more. I reckon he'd sooner play Chambers than Vermaelen.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
Obviously the above would also apply to anyone we might replace Vermaelen with - it's just a simple way of keeping 3 players happy when there's only 2 places up for grabs...
If TV5 had learned by now that to play CB you have to be a bit more disciplined, then I'm sure he would have gotten more game time.
As it is, the lad kept on rushing up field whenever it took his fancy, rather than taking a calculated gamble a la Koscielny.
Furthermore, he always leaves the left flank exposed.
I just think for a CB with so much promise, he's failed to build or progress on the early promise.
Shame, but Wenger clearly doesn't fancy him else he would have gotten more game time.
Verm has annoying habits but are they that bad that he’s uncoachable? Can’t someone just tell him to stop charging forwards and to communicate and look around before diving into a challenge? I seriously doubt we’ll spend good money on a 3rd choice CB (Hummels), which leaves us with the cheap option and that worries me. We could potentially bring in a player that can’t be trusted to play at all. We’ve seen it happen before. If we can’t coach the faults out of Verm you’ve got to worry about the next guy we bring in. If it’s someone with no Prem experience, we could be in for a rough ride.
But if we’re looking to spend big on a 3rd choice CB, which I highly doubt, we’d still have to get past this rotation issue. I just can’t see Wenger rotating first choice players so frequently. It’s always been a problem. It’s just not wise to keep playing a player until he breaksdown. If he doesn’t Verm to do the job then why offer him a new contract at the last minute? It just seems more sensible to keep him and he can go on a free next year.
I do wonder how much influence RVC has had on Vermaelen too. They're best buds apparently, so I wouldn't be surprised whether there has been some undercurrent there too.
Afterall, RVC is a complete and utter cunt.
Literally worse than Hitler.
Is it really worth £10m to keep Vermaelen for one season? It would only be worth that If keeping him directly results in getting us a trophy, which I doubt considering his performances over the last two seasons. I'd personally rather let him go now and use the money to invest in a better CB.
It's actually a good opportunity to build some depth in our defense. We've got out 4th choice sorted out in Chambers, but we need a reliable, experienced player that can genuinely push Mertecienly for a place in the side, and possibly even keep him out of the side. Vermaelen will never do that because, let's face it, he's at least a level below Mertecielny and hardly inspires confidence when he does play anyway.
I don't mean we should or will sign someone like Hummels, who is out of our price range and would expect to start every game. But if there aren't any £15-20m options out there that are better than Vermaelen then I'll eat my dog.
Harsh on your missus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Ahem.
I agree though.
:lol:
:haha: :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
There should be but I’m not sure if we’ll sign a good one. If we’re looking at someone with Prem experience then I’m all for it but if we’re looking at players from overseas, then that’s an issue for me. We don’t have the best of track records when it comes to signing CB’s.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Just watched the Wenger press conference from today. Don't think we'll sell him to Man Utd, or at least we'd need some serious money. In which case you've got to question why they don't pay £10m more and land Hummels. The rumour of the £10m Barcelona offer seems to be where we're trying to push him.
The right move for him is undoubtedly Man Utd. He'd be their best CB, and if Van Gaal goes with 3 at the back, he might be allowed some freedom to push forward. At Barcelona, he can't guarantee he'd start but even if he did, they'd go with somebody new next season or so. You never get stability there, but at Man Utd if he finds the form he had before the long injury, he can be a key player for years.
He's still only 28. He's still a really good player. If he can stay injury free someone's getting a bargain.
I think P n G has already alluded to it but the premise is simple. If it benefits us in footballing terms to sell him, then by all means sell him and replace with somebody of equal standing or better. If that is not in our thinking or it is not feasible or realistic to do that at this stage then we are simply needlessly weakening the squad when we already have other positions to fill.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
Unless we are happy to finish 4th and aren't really intending on challenging for the league or CL.
And we aren't going to spend 15-20 million on a third/fourth choice lads. If Wenger spends that it is on a first teamer.... and I am not convinced he believes somebody needs to come in over Mertersacker and Koscielny.
Well this is it, in my mind finding somebody of equal standing or better isn't going to take much doing - certainly in terms of usefulness to us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
I think the second line is rather odd too; if you think selling a third choice centreback (if that now) is some kind of indicator of lacking will to aim higher then I doubt whether you'll ever truly believe we'e striving for anything else than fourth.
He already has, I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
Sounds like Tommy V is definitely leaving then. I am with P'n'G and Blink on this, if we sell we need to replace him properly. I would also under no circumstances sell him to Man Utd or any other domestic rival. If he is unhappy and has to sit in the reserves then so be it.
In terms of replacements if we do sell him, well I think we should be looking at Nastasic of City if he is available and on the market, I highly doubt they would sell him to us but it would be worth a try. The lad at West Ham is pretty decent too, Winston Reid.
Twitter reporting that it's to Barca.
£10.3m
Not bad!
Vermaelen can fuck himself. Fuckin barca cunt.
Good to know from such a reliable source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Munchies
been stealing a living for most of his time at Arsenal. Any money they get for him is a positive. Absolute wasteman.
Well 12 million isn't quite 15-20 though it could be. I'd also argue Chambers is clearly earmarked as a future first teamer, though at 19 and as a new recruit, he isn't expected to be now and rightly so.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
So which CB's are of equal standing or better who aren't going to cost a disproportionate amount to the role we are asking them to play?Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
Yes I do, selling players who need replacing which you then don't replace is what then? I'm alluding to a general will to improve the squad, lest we think the third choice CB is the only acquisition needed. Nothing too odd about it really.
Exactly. It's not going to be easy to find someone that won't cost a fortune and is Prem ready. If we buy someone from overseas, we have to consider the adaption to the Prem phase and how much time will a third choice CB get.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
If Kos or Mers picks up an injury this year, we'd need someone ready to go and we can't afford to bring in someone that's shocked by the pace and physicality of the Prem. Verm has his faults but if we can't coach him to reel it in, how are we going to coach a newbie to adapt quickly to the league?
A prem based player is probably the best option but we'd be looking at a premium fee and I just can't see us spending that much for a third choice player. We can't really gamble on the CB position. Our defence is the reason why we had a good run last year. I'd like us to build on it and make smart moves so we're not in vulnerable position come January where we're discussing this again like we did last season when short on strikers.
We needed another 3rd choice CB regardless of whether Vermaelen stays or not IMO. He's nothing more than a 4th choice CB for me as he'll never seriously challenge Merts or Kos for a place because he's not good enough. We need more than 'just' a back-up to make up the numbers or we'll be fucked if either of those two picks up a long term injury.
It would be £5-10m net after selling Vermaelen which I don't think is unreasonable considering we would (ideally) be investing in a better, longer term player. Even if he wasn't willing to go that high, remember that we bought Mertesacker, Koscielny and even Vermaelen himself for £10m or less. Vidic and Kompany costed £7m! It's hard to believe that we can't find someone at least as good as Vermaelen.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
If Kos or Merts get injured we're fucked anyway, Vermaelen has shown that he isn't up to it time and time again. It's always a risk to bring in a player from another league but you have to put faith in your scouting network and judgment of a player.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Sterling Archer
Yes, our scouting network. Squallaci and Santos should be clear reminder of how bad it can go when looking for a defender. Jenkinson and Monreal aren't that bad but you see the reaction on here to their performances. Verm is really not that bad. He's not as bad as Squallaci and Djourou who were just awful.Quote:
Originally Posted by Penguin
Kos and Merts took a season to adjust and they had their fair share of critics before they settled, including myself, but it took game time for them to develop and finding the right combination. A 3rd choice won't get that much game time to find his stride so I'm not confident about our scouts finding an unknown player that's undervalued.
Yes, I agree we need back up on defence but we're talking about selling Verm before we have a player in the squad that we know can cope. That's just backwards to me. I don't think Wenger will sell. I hope not. Bulk up before trimming fat, especially when we look wafer thin in that area.
Well I didn't expect Wenger to pick Chambers as the next centreback for us but I dunno, somebody like Hoewedes? Maybe it'd cost a little bit too much and he has always been at Schalke but perhaps somebody of that ilk, not outstanding but solid enough. I'm not sure anybody will describe Vermaelen as solid, I'm not even sure how you describe Vermaelen as a defender.Quote:
Originally Posted by Blink 1nce Quince 2wice
We probably have a different idea of how we improve the squad; you think keeping a guy who may be pretty good (I think he has been full of errors and have no confidence him for quite some time), that is often injured is more beneficial to us than somebody who may be slightly inferior (again I don't think they would be because I don't rate Vermaelen much for us now) but is there able to help more often.
If we were talking about first team players like we have sold and replaced with inferior quality then I could understand but for a guy that I can't see has contributed to us in any meaningful way other than coming on for a couple of minutes at the end of a game.
If Wenger trusted him to contribute when he was there to play he would have played Vermaelen with any of Koscielny or Mertesacker. As we have seen - Koscielny and Vermaelen together is often horrendous, Vermaelen and Mertesacker is better but still not anywhere near Koscielny and Mertesacker and for that reaso we've seen that Wenger won't break up Koscielny and Mertesacker barring injury but maybe he would if he had a more trusted option there, inferior quality or whatever it may be and thus he might not need to play them together all the time.
Come on Mac, we’ve seen worse players. Djourou, Squillaci, Silvestre, Senderos, Cygan….are we putting Verm in that bracket where they’d most certainly cost us a game? I wouldn’t put him at that level where he can’t even be trusted to play 10 minutes. We’ve seen far worse. Nobodies saying he’s a great player or that he can’t be replaced. I’m just not confident about the player we’ll sign in his place when we’re pushed for time and in a panic. Which is why I say we keep him for one more season. We’ve spent well in this window but I can’t see Wenger splashing money on another defender that’s first team quality. He’ll either go for a veteran, someone young and untested or someone cheap from overseas. That’s what he’s done in the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
That's exactly what is happening, isn't it? He's often only coming on for a couple of minutes; when he does play meaninful minutes I reckon we probably don't go on to win. I think his influence causes panic in the team, he himself makes reckless errors more than most and I don't see how he can be considered first team quality, when he is not considered by Wenger, clearly to be first team quality.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Personally I take it as good thing that Man Utd and Barcelona are looking to buy our bench players now, not our first team players.
Silvestre, Djouriou and Squillaci level? Did he cost us serious points last year as back up? I don't recall him being that bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by McNamara That Ghost...
I'm not saying he is at that kind of level but he isn't contributing in the way I think a third choice guy should; he makes plenty of reckless mistakes, positional discipline is not exactly his forté and he often gets injured. That to me isn't helping the squad.
I think this works both ways.
He hasn't wanted to be at the club for some time, and Wenger doesn't see him as first choice.
It's not like we're making a huge error here. We have our first choice CB's who happen to be pretty decent, and who are better than Verms. We just need a solid back up. Doesn't need to be a record breaking signing. Just a steady eddie type. Unless of course, Miquel is being bought on...which wouldn't be the worst thing.