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Don’t disagree, hard to get too excited by a player who had some of the worlds best midfielders laying opportunities on a plate for him but still a very meagre return bolstered by one game against WatfordQuote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Like you say he’s decent but it wouldn’t be a bad idea to have a striker who carries some aerial threat.
Fuck knows who that would be
Maybe he suffered from never being considered the main man? Would be interesting to see what he’d do if playing 90mins every week.
But yeah agree with the sentiment that it isn’t exactly the stellar striker in the mould we had hoped for, but you never know, change of scenery might help him. Especially with the World Cup approaching.
I’ve seen a few of his heat maps for the season and he actually spent the vast majority of his minutes glued to the right, so he was probably one of the players doing the providing in that city side. And he would have been in and out of the side, the way Pep likes to rotate.
I don’t know… I think I’m excited about this, but I’m not really sure why? Maybe it’s because so many of our best strikers in the past, like Henry and van Persie, we’re in-obvious options? Or maybe it’s just the thought of having a striker who actually, you know… runs and moves and gets anywhere near the box!
There’s not a lot in his raw numbers to suggest that he’ll definitely be the elite goal-scorer we need - that’s going to require a bit of a leap of faith - but he’s certainly a very strong creator and dribbler, and he’s an elite presser, so I think he’ll fit right in with what we’ve been building. At the very least I think the surrounding attackers will see a lot of benefit from playing with him.
That Watford game was a weird one - on the one hand it padded his stats, and without those goals his tally would have been poor, but on the other I think that any player who can score 4 goals in a single game must have some killer instinct in them somewhere?
I guess the fact that he’s PL-ready and Arteta-ready is something else he has going for him.
Na, na, na, nana nana!Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Just to weight in on Saka...
He is clearly a high quality player. What really makes him stand out is his consistency at such a young age. It's not coincidence he became not only a key player for Arsenal, but also for England in the Euros last year. In international tournament football, Southgate clearly valued having somebody he knew would not let him down. Again, that's very rare for such a young player. I'd say 90% of his games are a 7/10 or above, and he never really drops a clanger. Year on year he appears to be adding more productivity. Now, that's not to say there isn't a tendency to overrate him somewhat, because we're buying into not only what he is right now, but what we think he can become. On top of that he seems a really nice young man and has come through our own academy, so it's inevitable there will be some extra fondness for him. When we're scratching around looking for positives at times with it being relatively lean times as an Arsenal fan, then of course it might not take as much to get us excited, but nonetheless, he's a very good player in his own right.
I looked up for comparison the stats for some of the more productive wide forwards from the past 20 years (just a random selection of ones that came to mind, not trying to cherry pick). Here's their numbers in the season in which they turned 20, as Saka did this past season (Appearances, Goals, Assists)
Bukayo Saka - Apps: 43, G: 12, A: 7
Cristiano Ronaldo - Apps: 50, G: 9, A: 9
Arjen Robben - Apps: 34, G: 8, A: 14 (in Eredivisie)
Franck Ribery - not yet playing senior football
Sadio Mané - Apps: 19, G: 1, A: 1 (in Ligue 2)
Mohamed Salah: Apps: 15, G: 7, A: 3 (in Egyptian PL)
Raheem Sterling: Apps: 52, G: 11, A: 10
Serge Gnabry - not yet playing senior football
Kingsley Coman: Apps 37, G: 6, A: 12
Heung-Min Son: Apps: 34, G: 12, A:2
Basically, he compares well there with some very useful players. I think possibly the only wingers who blow him out of the water in terms of numbers at the same age are Neymar and Messi. Every player's development curve varies, and the hope is that he continues on his current trajectory. If it turned out he peaked aged 20, then sure, he'd definitely be viewed as overhyped in hindsight.
Really, the biggest worry is that he's being overburdened too soon, and whether that will take a toll on his body in the longer term. Some competition for him will be beneficial for this as well as encouraging him to raise his game further to get to that next level.
Laughable.Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketsi
Suggesting he averages a 7 or over is so utterly fuckin ridiculous I'm not even sure how to respond. He usually starts a game brightest then disappears for most of it.
If that's a 7 then we're absolutely fucked, ffs.
I'll agree that him also fooling an idiot like Southgate is amazing.
I genuinely hope he plays every minute for England.
Interesting post, man.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
I think that's the optimistic angle we're all clinging to here, tbh.
Maybe all he needs is to be 'the man' and he'll rise to that. He also seems to have a lot of those intangible and mental characteristics that top players have too.
It's the move from Vlahovic to him that's throwing me. They're so different I just can't understand the strategy, at all.
What I will say, in the intradest of fairness, on Saka is that if he could shoot or was able to be more direct/decisive then he could/should have had a 20+ goal season last year. He certainly had the opportunities. And these are the types of skills that do develop towards the end of the development cycle for most attacking players.
Hopefully he can kick on but we really need to stop the ridiculousness around him, man. If anything it's probably detrimental to him because if he thinks he's putting in 7/10s every weeks he's thinking he's made it, which we've seen evidence of with some of his effort at times, particularly defensively, when he has a long, long way to go.
It might be ridiculous in your opinion, but your hyperbolic response is clearly that.Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Saka started 3 games for England at Euro 2020. His average scores on the BBC player ratings, i.e. mostly not from Arsenal fans, were 7.74, 7.04 and 6.53. Sky Sports gave him 8/10 for the tournament, The Independent gave him 7.5/10, Evening Standard 8/10, Mirror 8/10, etc.
There might be calibration differences - some people might think a rating of 4/10 is a baseline average, others a 6/10, so maybe your own personal quantitative measure of performance may vary.
I think the majority of Arsenal fans would agree he looked as though he was suffering from burn out by the end of last season. It would be foolish not to take that into account, and your observation that he fades as games go on probably reflect the fact he's overplayed - hence the club clearly looking at a RW addition in the transfer market. If he's allowed a decent rest and used appropriately, then hopefully you'll end up seeing him in the same light as most of the rest of us.
As I said, I've watched him play utter shit only to get MOM and an 8/10. There's some mental hype/agenda around him that most seems to have just bought into. It's fuckin weird and, frankly, doesn't do him any favors long term, imo (= fact).Quote:
Originally Posted by cricketsi
As for him burning out towards the end of the season. I didn't notice that at all. I think people were actually just starting to realize that he is a total hype job at this point and rather than admit they were wrong/bought into the nonsense used fatigue as the excuse.
He was consistently poor for the entire season.
Consistently poor for the entire season? Don't be ridiculous.Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
I opened a challenge for anyone to tell me the games he was good in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner23
One person attempted but I stopped reading when they said summin like "terrorized Man City..." :haha:
It’s absolutely the optimistic angle, but that’s all part of the fun of this time of year! You get a couple of brief months where you get to live in fantasy and pretend that we’re going to be amazing before stinking reality kicks in again - enjoy it while you can!Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Yeah, I’ve mentioned the same thing several times since January - we bid for Abraham last summer, then Vlahovic in Jan, then enquired about Isak when that failed so it looked very much like there was a clear physical profile we were after. Maybe it was never anything but coincidence, though, and those three targets had more to do with availability than the fact that they’re all 6’3 / 6’4?Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Just out of interest, who are the alternatives to Jesus that everyone is thinking of? Feels like there’s a bit of shortage of quality CFs out there at the moment.
I'd agree with you there. There is also the supply and demand angle. Percieved top strikers are unbelievably expensive, and like it or not, AFC has to think about all round team strength. We have been burnt by making marquee signings who have not moved the dial for us, and I am pleased that we seem to be trying to be smart, and buy good talent at prices that allow us to still invest in other areas. I have no doubt that this is a big factor directing our pursuit of Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
All good points, You Are Invisible and IBS.
I'm struggling to think of alternatives. Other than Isak (never seen play) and Osinheim who looks absolutely legit but would no doubt cost more than Arsenal would pay. Nkunko has just renewed his contract...Lewa probably wouldn't be intradested either.
Striker isn't the kinda position you get a Vieira type signing either, tbh.
There might be a part-x deal to be done with Roma for Abraham, if they still want Xhaka and Bellerin? Chuck in Torreira too if wants to stay in Italy! I have a feeling they’ll want an obscene amount of cash on top of that too, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Beyond that and the guys you mention I’m drawing a blank.
There's also the minimisation of risk element here. Jesus may not tick all of the boxes - particularly given what appears to be the latest trend to big physical strikers who can go toe to toe with defenders playing the low block (could Nketiah adapt here? https://www.thesun.co.uk/sport/18669...tion-transfer/) - he would come with the massive advantage that Arteta knows him so well and has worked with him before. However good the scouting or player analysis this is not true for other potential targets.
Dusan Vlahovic has not replicated his form for Fiorentina at Juve since his move in January, and there is no guarantee that he would have been an immediate success for us in a more difficult league had we managed to sign him. £70 odd mil represented a massive risk in these circumstances not only because of this but because it would have meant at least one less other top signing this Summer.
Jesus is EPL ready and tested, and our manager can have greater certainty re his plans and expectations for the player. For me this trumps signing an unknown with a more 'ideal' physical profile...
Again, fair points...but unless Arteta thinks they can play the same way with Jesus as they could have with Vlahovic it speaks to either a lack of strategy or change in strategy...as you have to assume there a significant element of 'getting the right player for the system'...unless I'm giving Arteta too much credit which is possible as he deserves little credit in my anyway.
He might? Again, we’re just assuming that he wanted Vlahovic because of his physical profile, but it might have always been purely about his ability to do the job we need: pressing, hold-up play, movement and goals. His size might have been nothing more than a bonus?
And tbf Arteta does have a track record of adapting and changing strategy depending on what he has to work with. When he first took over he regularly played a back 3 and wingbacks, then moved to a 4231 and more recently to 433. 433 looks like what he’s been building towards, but even now he’ll slip back to 4231 when he needs to, or chuck Holding on to make a back 3.
Looking at the core of trusted players we already have and the players we’ve been chasing this summer I wouldn’t be surprised if tactical flexibility and in-game adaptability is what we’re aiming for? A hell of a lot of those guys are comfortable in 2 or 3 different roles.
Aye - flexibility both in tactics and personnel who can cover multiple positions is IMO where we need to be going. The state run clubs can afford more than we can to have specialist single position players. We need to find another way. Also - re Arteta's strategy its quite possible that this has evolved since January, and in fairness Jesus has been regarded as our No. 1 target forward for some time now. Ornestin reporting that the fee is agreed. if we land this it will be quite impressive - securing our primary target in the face of interest from Chelsea, Spurs. Reports saying Rapinha closer too - with the player keen to join us. Says a lot for the confidence in our project that these top targets want to come on board.Quote:
Originally Posted by I am invisible
Same with this Martinez. LB, CB and apparently DM (actually his primary position in FM22).
Just signing him as a LB or a CB doesn't make much sense given we have Gabriel and Tierney (assuming this'd be the end of Taveres) so you'd assume Arteta sees him playing a lot to spend that much, suggesting it'd be more than one position.
I wouldn't be surprised if Arteta sees him as sucessor to Xhaka...and a deputy in the meantime...Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
Yeah, you guys might be onto something there. I can’t remember where I heard it exactly, but I’m sure someone on one of the Arsenal podcasts said that out of all the players in the City squad the one who Martinez most closely matches up to in terms of his stats is Fernandinho.
If I had to guess, I would say we’re looking at him as one of those inverted fullbacks that Pep and Arteta seem to love - a LB when we defend and a CM partner for Partey when we attack.
Tbf City may have spent a fortune on players, but they actually have quite a lean squad all things considered. Their model is very much what we’re aiming for - away from bloated squads of specialists and towards a smaller number of higher quality, adaptable generalists. Easier to manage and easier to keep everyone happy and engaged with regular minutes.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
With the striker situation and the seeming deviation from looking at more physical types, I wonder if they may have assessed the market and decided there is nobody of sufficient quality who is obtainable for us right now, so would rather have Jesus as CF now, and keep a spot in the squad free for a big signing next summer, when Jesus can rotate in 2 positions, at CF and RW. Smarter than going down to 6th choice option and having a striker we don't really want for 4/5 years. Tried that option and it failed miserably!
Yep - would make sense :good:
So far so good with the improvements to the team.
New number 9 and Nketiah extended. I'm a lot happier with Jesus now than I was at the initial intradest, tbh. The more I read, I guess. Fan confirmation bias/optimism maybe...
I wasn't quite ready to give up on Nketiah either...just summin in the West Ham game for me...I think with Martinelli and Balagun there too it's probably enough. Not a title challenging cohort for me but decent enough to challenge for top 4.
Vieira still a bit of an unknown, obvs, but clearly an attempt to fill the creative void (other than Odegaard) in the squad. Hopefully he's already started his steroid cycle.
A wide player is still the priority for me. Then another CM. Really don't get the LB or tiny CB intradest but I'm unjustifiably all in on Saliba.
Two more signings would be huge. If it's Tielemans and someone even close to Raphinha's stature then I reckon it's a brilliant window.
Just had a look at the fixture list and it's already clear where our season's going to fall apart.
Liverpool A, 8 Apr
West Ham A, 15 Apr
Southamton H, 22 Apr
Man City A, 26 Apr
Chelsea H, 29 Apr
Newcastle A, 6 May
There is absolutely zero chance that this run of fixtures doesn't destroy our season, whatever we may be in the running for at that stage.
18 points tbh.
Anything less is a sackable offence tbf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We need around 75 points. Play the same games as everyone else. If we only get 3 of those 75 points from that run it doesn't matter if we get the other 72 over the rest of the season.Quote:
Originally Posted by WMUG
We have a decent start so I'd really like to see the signings finalized asap to maximize those games. Fuckin infuriates me when teams leave signings to the last day of the window when they've already missed 5 games or whatever. Pure stupid.
If we get 75 points from the season, we'll be challenging for the title before those games :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
The world cup should make things a little bit spicy in the run in - I wouldn't be surprised if all the games in the last 6 weeks are utter chaos.
An post that is both optimistic and realistic (if that's possible :unsure:) :good:Quote:
Originally Posted by mandela8
the signings have been positive so far, but there's also the departures to consider and they too will make a statement about our ambitions
In particular, as far as i'm concerned no club with serious ambition should be starting next season with a banter player like Xhaka in the squad
his departure has to be a priority, so we can truly reset and move on from the time when players like him were considered to be good enough to be starting matches for Arsenal
Xhaka's going nowhere, not now that his midfield partner is going to prison.
There’ll be no prison movies where he’s going.
Quote:
Originally Posted by GP
That’s where you go if you Rape people (or go to Rape people)
Well actually 95% of the time that isn’t the case
Seen ESRs injury isn't serious but he'll miss the Brentford game. As will Zinchenko.
Hopefully Partey is back but haven't seen... He is in the Ghana squad though.