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I agree, actually. I'm not adverse to spending money and I think we've been far too cautious in the transfer market and it's cost us trophies. But I wouldn't want Arsenal to 'do a City'. If you can't see it would taint any achievements then...well, you must be able to.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Re RVP I don't agree that everything boils down to money. Plenty of people stay im jobs because they are happy there. Plenty of footballers have shown that they can move for money yet regret it. The Na$ri's of this world are the exception rather than the rule. I'm not saying RVP's decision isn't going to rest principally on commercial interests, but I hope :pray: that well being will play a part in his decision.
He's our Captain so of course he is leaving.
Hopefully Ramsey is our next Captain.
RVP will go to where he goes if he leaves to win things because like People have said on here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping
He is coming to the end of his career and would want to win things or have other medals rather then the 2005 one.
If he stays then he must really believe in this team for the next few seasons.
The issue is that clubs with the best chance of winning trophies also happen to be the richest clubs, by definition. So I can understand why a player would jump at the chance to pocket 150k a week and some medals.
It's not an issue of money with RVP (unless we're grossly undervaluing him), the guy is clearly an Arsenal man but it's reasonable enough to think the perception of Arsenal now is not the same as it is with Man City et al.
So it's a huge decision for RVP to make but I do have to agree I'd lose a little respect for him if he chose City, he'd be nothing more than a spare part there.
you can see from the way he has played this season, the way he has organsied off field events for the team and his celebrations that he really cares. look at the tackle he attempted at west borm, was so desperate to get there you could see it. this man cares about us and loves us and for that reason alone he will stay. he believes in us and he loves the captaincy. im convinced he will stay
Ditto. I'd understand why he would for professional reasons but it would feel like a stab in the back of course, on a tribal level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Is it enough though. Yes he cares we know that his speech told us that. "What ever happens i will always love this club"Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie the optimist
He won't stay if no ambition is shown no matter how much he loves the club.
I do agree with you that spending such huge amounts does taint the achievement somewhat, however I do think the way we do things is equally deplorable (on the opposite end of the scale).Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We should spend money and a club of our stature should be able to attract some top players, particularly after selling some, Podolski is a good move IMO, but that's just one player (and I worry he may well end up the replacement for RVP) and we need a few more quality players.
We'll find out at some point. You can run through 100 different theories as to what things he'd value and you could spin it either way. And here's mine:Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
I take the view that footballers don't think like fans. They're not obsessed with trophies. They want to win and be very famous and in the top bracket of footballers. In order to do that, they can't play for Doncastwood Argyle. They need to play at the highest level and Arsenal are playing at the highest level (the European Cup). Some players (and I think Van Persie is one) like being the big fish in a reasonable-sized pond. They want a lot of money though and if Arsenal are to keep him they have to be prepared to give him a lot of money. If I was Van Persie and even if I didn't really care about Arsenal, I'd know that I could be the king at this club. I would've spent 7 years here already, if I stay for another 5, job done - legend status, hero status, worshipped by every gooner. If I leave now, I won't be a hero here or anywhere else. I wouldn't be a 'legend' of any club. I'm 29 years old and I've got about 3/4 years at the top (if that, considering my injury proneness) and even if I move to Barcelona or Real Madrid and win a couple of titles, I'm not going to be a club legend at those places either. I'll have a shiny medal to show my grandkids. If I stay at Arsenal, I might not have that shiny medal. But, when I'm retired and I'm walking near the stadium and go to a game, I'll get more people telling me how great I was that the kudos is better than the shiny medal for something Barcelona or Real Madrid or Man City probably would've done whether or not I was there. Think about how valued Bergkamp is and how valued Henry is amongst Arsenal fans. That could be me and I'd choose getting a free pint and hero status over anything else (assuming, as I said, I was playing at the highest level).
I think if Henry had to make a choice again, he wouldn't have gone to Barcelona. Hope he had a word with RVP when he was over.
Are we going to offer him four years, then? Would be a bit unWUMgerish. But I think he's about the same age as Henry when all those shenanigans were going on. Think his was a four-year deal with a shitload of loyalty cash on top. Who knows. It'd be a big commitment from the club. The pragmatists would give him three.
Don't know how much that'll affect things. Don't know anything, really.
Give him 4 years and all the space cake he can eat.
Isnt the issue going to be over the length of the contrat. He clearly wants 4 years at at least £150,000 per week. Wenger will be worried with his injury record that he wont play enough. Guess it comes down to how much Wenger wants to keep him.
i'm not sure myself, as Henry's legendary status was already secured at the club and he got the final piece of the jigsaw to go with the title, domestic cup, wc and euro, something that we know he very much wanted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
you are right that players don't think like fans although i would say we are less obsessed with trophies than players probably are. the vast majority of players will always have to find other reasons to play the game at any level as they will never win a trophy of note but every player wants to win. win a tackle, a header, a game - the drive is to win the immediate competition you are part of. so i think it follows that players are driven far more by the idea of silverware than we fans are, as it is the ultimate sequential goal of their competitive nature.
it's a tough call to know if a player would value status over medals or vice versa but an interesting question. perhaps when they reach their late 50/60's as more reflection of their life comes into their mind the status thing would mean more but how many of us look that far ahead?
Maybe he'll sign a 2 year extension to his current deal just t see how things go in the next couple of seasons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis Bendtner
Can't disagree with any of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
I love this post. :gp:
I think players would rather have trophies and medals to show for their career
I just think Wenger will not allow last Summer to happen again. I mean Wenger knows he doesn't have much longer. How many times can he pull himself back from losing the heart of his team? If RVP does not actively want out, I'm hopeful that Wenger will do what is needed. I think that AW ultimately gives in when its obvious a player doesn't want to play for him any more. Always has because he respects his players. An RVP wanting to be convinced to stay where he wants to be, rather than talked out of a decision already made to leave might be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by jelgoon
Thats modern day footballers that is. They'd also have 300K that goes along with all that too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
I guess players like Sheerah and Le Tisser are an example of hero status being enough. Although they're from another era, you'd be hard pressed to find a player like them these days.
Alan Shearer i guess is the perfect example of what Syn is talking about
Yep this is what i meant. Modern footballer is different. That loyalty thing is more or less a thing of the past.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
When I lived near Tooting Broadway I often got drunk and ended up there on the last tube.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Tooting :bow: Where i have to get off on the tube.
Doesn't he do it every year though? (Alright, maybe not always heart, but often valuable players)Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping
Vieira - 2005
Cole, Pires, Bergkamp, Campbell - 2006
Henry, Lauren, Reyes, Ljungberg - 2007
Hleb, Flamini, Silva, Lehman - 2008
Toure, Adebayor - 2009
Gallas - 2010
Clichy, Nasri, Fabregas, Eboue (steady) - 2011
We have basically sold/lost our 'star' players every summer for quite some time now. Not really good enough for a team with title aspirations - but I guess, we aren't one anymore.
He might not have felt in a position to offer them what they wanted. Was the wage structure enforced by the board or Wenger? I know Wenger said things about the structure but he is a loyal employee - once the board has made it's decision, he would not be seen criticising it in public, even if he disagreed. A comment he let slip about the ****ley **** saga implied it was not under his full control. Negotiations with RvP, roumour has it, might include breaking the current wage structure. Given the board must bow to Kroenke's wishes, that might have changed. (I know they have wage structures in the US, but Kroenke might be a smart enough businessman not to apply US methods to non-US companies.
Last summer was different. By and large, with the noteable exception of 2008 with Hleb and Flamini, Wenger intended to sell, or at least anticipated the sale of the players mentioned. The departures affected our team, but didn't send it into meltdown like last Summer. Wenger took his eye off the ball last Summer, and clearly didn't anticipate those 2 tossers going. I don't think he will do the same with RVP.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Xs-
Plus its exactly this issue that I'm getting at on the other thread. I think Wenger has to shoulder much of the blame for misjudging last Summer, but regarding the other departures, I wonder if its fair to point the finger at him? Because doing so suggests that we as a club are capable of holding onto top players. nd I think that we need to accept that financially, and therefore performance-wise, we are simply aren't in a position to do so. I'd even go so far as to say that because of Wenger's rep and the perception that a) We play football in the right way b) We give young players an opportunity and c) We treat our players wth respect and do business the right way - we are, and have been punching above our weight for years as regards our ability to attract talent. Its no surprise that this talent gets its head turned at a later stage.
My view?
I think RVP is an Arsenal Fan. And like all fans in his position, he wants to use every single iota of leverage and influence he can to change the direction of the club. I don't think it's about money, more fed up like we all are of watching richer club stockpile talent, whilst we scrape by buying the bare minium we need to stay competitive. Like all fans, he would rather he won trophies here, however, as a competitive professional sportsman, he wants his career to mean something, which is difficult being in a club effectively running an academy model.
Make no doubt, RVP is in an exceptionally strong position, or, conversely, Wenger and the Board are in a very tight corner. Personally, if they can't promise signings, they should have done what Fergie did to Rooney and gave him a 250k per week contract without any messing around. The moral sapping nature of another star leaving can't be underestimated - not just on fans, but on our current squad, and any prospective transfer target we'd have in mind - it would pretty much put an end to any notion that we're competing. Even RVP being forced to stay a year before leaving on a free would be a diaster. It's quite depressing seeing the club fuck around with this.
It's funny, people will point at newcastle, dortmund or lile as prove you don't need loads of money to get the odd bit of success, but, like we've seen season over season, there star players will be ripped apart from the club by richer teams and big promises of sustained glory. The fact we've *survived* for so long is supprising in many aspects, however, if the club still insists we're challenging, and insists on charging fans the highest ticket prices in europe, it needs to behave like those bigger, richer clubs. If it can't, or won't, it needs to drop the charade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping
I agree - and who would it be most sapping on? Our manager. I can see him being finished off if RVP leaves - how many times can you put eveything you have into a team, merely to make up the 2 steps back you take when a key player leaves?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBapologist
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBapologist
This is it in a nutshell I reckon.
Its obvious that the team loves having him as captain and I think we should credit more to him for how the team have started to gel over the last 6 months than we should anyone else.
But its all about player signings I think.
I think a lot of this will come down to the medical history. Is he finally over all those injuries or not? Because £250K a week (we will never offer that) is a significant portion of our revenue and RvP will be looking for the final contract, 4 years I would think. (This is why City's achievement just doesn't measure up, they don't need to consider things like this so they aren't really part of everyday football as such.)Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBapologist
I can see what you are saying though. For as much as we get frustrated by what goes on, what must it be like to be directly involved? And have your livlihood depend on it? And for all the talk of big money, once you get it you get used to it. I've had money and I've been skint, you adjust your lifestyle accordingly and take it for granted to a degree. Best I can imagine this is when I worked for a small company that had big, big potential (as in we all could have been rich) if only the management had taken some very simple steps and stopped fucking around. I had the "stop fucking around and I'll stay" meeting with them. It wasn't about the money, it was about what we could achieve if only we got our act sorted out. We decided to go bust instead, which was another way to go for sure. But it was so frustrating it was tempting to leave just to get away from the shit and even though it would have been counterproductive. The guys I worked with were all good guys, it's just we didn't see eye to eye on how things were being run. If that's the situation RvP is in then he's gone because Stan won't be changing his business model (which is bound to be carefully considered and long term) to take RvP's views into account. This is what "nobody is bigger than the team" REALLY means - it means the guy at the top will decide and everyone else can fuck off. It's a noble way of saying my way or the highway.
If Stan understands even a bit about football or he's prepared to listen to somebody who has a better understanding then he may realise the RvP situation is so much more than just how many goals and how many points one player can contribute. It's about the philosophy of the club at this point in time. Have we done the stadium thing now? Are we keeping the promises made to the fans who in the end have financed the whole deal? Are we keeping RvP to signify our transition from a club in development to one that is ready to challenge at the top tier? Or are we still a selling club because other matters (financial) are of greater importance?
This is such a massive transfer window. If we go an make a profit again then it sets the tone for Stan's tenure. It'll all be about making money and doing the bare minimum in terms of competing - again! What will we be able to do as fans if this is the case? Nothing.
Is RvP considering all these issues? I should think so.
Or are we over-complicating things?
Assuming that RVP is happy at Arsenal, which is likely, I think his decision will boil down to 3 things:
1. Package
2. Does he think we will challenge for the title next season
3. His family - settled or good to go
1 - Think thats more down to his wife being happy with thatQuote:
Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping
2 - Unlikely
3 - Not as big a deal as its made out to be. Family go where the moneymaker goes
On #3 I agree, I doubt this will be a huge factor and when you're looking at £250K a week it's something that can easily be sorted.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ach
Yeah. "Mum, but I wanna stay in this school, and be with my friends"Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
"It's ok dear, it's only a short private jet ride away"
More like, "Nanny - take her away please and dress her in some designer gear"Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Depends on the family, methinks. Let's face it on £150K pw you can pretty much do what you like. Like I said money will be factor #1. I can't help thinking that for these footballers the wage figure is as much a pissing contest as anything else.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn