I know, I wasn't expecting too much from him, given 3 months out, but he did play a few good passes when he came on which no one even tried to run onto.
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I know, I wasn't expecting too much from him, given 3 months out, but he did play a few good passes when he came on which no one even tried to run onto.
It's sad to say it, but Wenger has become almost worthy of pity. He is a man clinging stubbornly to a football philiosophy that has been overtaken. And his players aren't even trying to prove him right.
How many times have we seen other players collapse like this? Under Henry as captain, Gallas, Fabregas, RVP....they all had these sort of games where they looked out of their depth. I see people blaming the players saying they don't give a shit, but I find it hard to belive, especially for this particular group of players. What they lacked on the field quality wise compared to the attacking finesse of the past era, they made up for in fight and spirit. That was the common theme I'd hear people regularly agree on here but now I'm hearing people say they don't give a shit. That can't possibly be true. Not at this stage in the season. They're just lost and mentally gone.
I would tend to agree.
that's very true, up to Christmas everyone was very happy with how things were going. the streamlining of the squad over the summer getting rid of most of the deadwood. A good attitude in games, a tight defence and a willingness to keep going and fight to the end. Now this team is no different to seasons past... well perhaps worse as we have been smashed 4 times this season and 3 times in the last 5 away games.
or perhaps we were where we were purely on the back of Ramseys amazing form.
Even after that though we were hanging in there. With 9 games to go we were 4 points off the top. We were level on points with Liverpool, Chelsea were 4 points above us but we had a game in hand over them. Liverpool got 12 points in the following 4 games, we got 2. We had harder games but still. It's pretty pathetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble
I didn't think we had enough to win the title but we were on course for somewhere in the region of 80 points which would have been a big improvement on last year. I didn't expect us to collapse this badly, I don't think even the real doom-mongers on here would claim to have thought it would be quite this bad.
An improvement in the league and the FA Cup and I'd have declared it a pretty successful season. Now...well, we could still win the FA Cup and that would bring back some feelgood factor but right now it's all pretty depressing, especially as we've been here so many times before.
Do. Not. Bottle. The. FA. Cup.
http://www.euroasiaindustry.com/work...cola-large.jpg
Quote:
Originally Posted by She Wore A Red Ribbon
Listening to his post match interview you can tell how much these defeats are hurting him. Putting aside his faults, the players need to take a look at themselves. They may not be getting the tactical direction they need, but these are seasoned professionals who look like they dont give a crap. Really poor all round.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
No. This is what can happen with a team of talented players - who can believe in themselves while the going is good. But with Wenger's system - (a) It needs to work perfectly in order to deliver results. (b) It needs players on top form; no injuries. (c) It needs other teams to give us space to work. Whatever Wenger is trying to do - it is simply not enough to succeed now that the game has moved on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bumble
Like I say - it must kill him to see the players he has invested so much with fail to repay his faith. But they are products of his choosing. And feeling sorry for Wenger has this caveat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner23
The issue for me is that the defeats don't hurt him enough to make him want to change things, from what I've seen within a couple games he's forgotten about a heavy defeat and is out praising the team again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gooner23
The saddest thing is that he can't change things. We are suffering from the same problems that we have faced for the last decade. The disillusionment is seeing that the obvious flaws in this team are still there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Özim
Utter shite, and yet, predictable.
I think the scary thing is just how feeble our style of football has become. Everton and Liverpool have done us in a way that was reminiscent of our great team of 97/98. Good defensive solidity backed up with swift and speedy counter attacking movement. They can beat teams 3 or 4 nil and not bat an eyelid.
Have we regressed? Is it just end-of-season mental tiredness? One thing's for certain. We have to buck our ideas up ahead of August. Will we be able to go to Anfield, the Etihad, Stamford Bridge and Goodison without the mental scar of this season's thrashings fresh in the players' memories?
Drastic personnel changes or not, the whole footballing philosophy here has to change. The fact that managers who were knocking about in the lower divisions five years ago suddenly getting the better of Wenger so easily is unnerving.
Well put, I was watching Liverpool and also Everton, and the spine they have to their team is pretty good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernesto
Decent keepers.
Solid defence (Everton more than Liverpool), and amazing full backs on BOTH sides in Baines/Coleman.
Decent midfield anchors for both teams really. Gerrard, has been used further back this season, but unlike Arteta he always drives forward.
Great wing play, not surprising what having pace and being direct can do. Lukaku isn't even a winger but he shat over Monreal today.
And strikers get you the goals, which win you the games.
We had that in Vieira, Overmars, Bergy, Wright. And then over the years added Gilberto,Pires, Freddie (who made direct runs stretching defences) and Henry.
Right now, there is nothing infront of our defence. Non existant midfield who are too slow to win the ball back, weak attacking players in Cazorla, no real width on the wings and a shit slow lamp post upfront who offers no threat. No wonder how easy it is to beat us.
Really not sure where the idea the game has moved on is coming from. Do you mean moved backwards, because the quality on display from all teams in all countries is considerably lower than a decade ago and is a mockery compared to a couple of decades back. Back then we had skilful, direct and entertaining football (except when the Italians were playing). Now the game is pure shit, apart from the odd moments when a very (very, very) few genuinely talented individuals raise it. Players seem to be fitter, they seem to be able to run further (has this actually been tested?), but they are weaker mentally, they aren't sportsmen with a sporting philosophy, they cheat relentlessly and don't have a problem doing it. Managers pack midfields, park buses, very much in the Italian philosophy which to me is a destruction of the game rather than a step forward. The media applauds this horrendous regression judging the ends as suitable apology for the means, in most cases. Even Wenger has adopted this negative approach now, not that it works well for us. Mardrid, Bayern, Dortmund, Manchester Utd, PSG and particularly Barcelona produced cringeworthy garbage last week, as did we and the other so-called elite of the game the week before. Chelsea are a horrible team beyond compare. Liverpool and the gypos occasionally produce something worth watching in a football sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
Do you mean Wenger hasn't tried to destroy football itself to the same degree wreckers like Mourinho has? If so, I agree and I'm happy about that. I'm hoping Wenger's preferred style fo football, or proper football if you like, will come back into fashion at some point. I'm a little sick of hearing wise pundits and media hacks talk about the modern game because the modern game is every bit as shit as they are. Do we actually want this modern game or would some entertainment and sportsmanship be the better way to go?
Football players need to have their knees hacked off, metaphorically speaking. They rise too far too fast and without having to deliver a fraction of what used to be required. They should be shoved into pubs after the match to face the fans. Bring them back to planet earth. because as things stand they can get away with doing pretty much nothing for the huge rewards they get. None of them are close to being worth it. These guys are surfing a broken economy and milking it for all it is worth. Football was supposed to be the working man's game - it needs to go back to that. If we want to see the effort we demand then there has to be an incentive for these kids to perform. Right now provided they have a half decent agent they can Bendtner or Diaby their way through their entire careers while the fans get ripped off from all angles for an ever inferior product. Another reason, of course, why clubs such as the chavs and the gypos are so awful for the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
This.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
Everything about Arsene and his rotten system screams of his ideals and how he wants "football" played irrespective of the outcome.
As you stated, Arsene's system relies on too many unknowns to click in order for it to be delivered correctly. I would even go one step further and say most of his buys are fairly similar (highly technical attacking midfielders) because they fit into his "idealistic, tika taka barca lite" system.
Everything he does regarding the football team reeks of somebody so far removed from reality and living in his own bubble, he's unable to build a balanced football team, our team/squad is just a sum of parts...a fantasy. Arsene's teams collapse under pressure for a reason, it's not like we are talking about the same set of players everytime, it's a character trait of his teams.
People say "give him time", "we have money now", "we can't hire a better manager than him"? blah blah blah....
I respect Arsene for his past achievements but he simply has to go now...thanks for leaving the club in great shape financially and for building a solid-ish squad, but let somebody with an open mind and different vision take over.
How can the quality of football be lower than what it was two decades ago?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Don't take his bait. He is just trying to be different and get a reaction. Just agree that it is the fault of capitalism, jose mourinho, usmanov, Abu Dhabi, sky, refs, neighbors goat etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Ernesto put it well when he saidQuote:
Originally Posted by selassie
...and NQ - AW has been excused a lot over the past few years for his principled way of going about things. And Mourinho's obvious spite stems from the fact that Wenger is still respected here despite his lack of success. We can justifiably point to the Citeh's and Chavs poisoning football. What hurts is that with fewer resources than us, Rogers; Martinez; and even the likes of Pochetino are showing that good management can breed success and a dynamic brand of football. Like it or not, the new breed of managers are playing more exciting football than us, even if they are also being tactically astute in setting teams up to play what is in front of them. It has been embarrassing seeing Arsenal so easily out-thought as well as out played.Quote:
The fact that managers who were knocking about in the lower divisions five years ago suddenly getting the better of Wenger so easily is unnerving.
It's a personal opinion. I think games are positively dull compared to two decades ago when the winger was common, defending was uncompromising and the striker needed to be a lot more proficient than he is now in order to get a sniff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
There's too much negativity in the current game - brought about by "progressive" coaches. It's not fun to watch. It's dull. Technically proficient maybe, like Barcelona, but uninspiring and monotonous.
Yes, some managers are certainly more enterprising and ambitious with their football than Wenger is now, wouldn't argue with that. I hate watching the shit we play. But there isn't a manager anywhere who has ever produced the type of football we used to play. Granted, it's much tougher to play like that now, mainly due to the cynical approach that has come about because it is now so vital to win or get fourth or stay up or whatever the financial goal happens to be. This is what I mean when I say people shouldn't be so quick to applaud the modern game. Yes it is modern and it gets results, but it's boring and one of the key ingredients of any form of entertainment should be, well, entertainment.Quote:
...and NQ - AW has been excused a lot over the past few years for his principled way of going about things. And Mourinho's obvious spite stems from the fact that Wenger is still respected here despite his lack of success. We can justifiably point to the Citeh's and Chavs poisoning football. What hurts is that with fewer resources than us, Rogers; Martinez; and even the likes of Pochetino are showing that good management can breed success and a dynamic brand of football. Like it or not, the new breed of managers are playing more exciting football than us, even if they are also being tactically astute in setting teams up to play what is in front of them. It has been embarrassing seeing Arsenal so easily out-thought as well as out played.
Wenger has genuinely changed his ways fundamentally in a number of ways. The problem is, he is still all too familiar and comfortable with this slowly slowly catchy monkey aproach to getting to where ever it is he thinks he's going. That is why he allowed the Suarez negotiations to petter out and why he was happy to sit on his hands for so much of the last 2 windows saying "we will not buy for the sake of it".
The problem is, the fans no longer share his patience......that's if they ever did. I refer you to his quote from last summer about being well placed to challenge within the next 2-3 years regarding our resources which rings ominously in our eardrums. Or least, it does mine.
AFC for a long time were waiting for FFP to kick in, when perhaps we should have been waiting for more billionaire's shi* to hit the fan. Since Chelsea sold what was left of their soul, others have followed suit with Billionaires buying up top clubs and it may well happen again. It might have been easier to really compete before the situation got worse....but here we are. Despite it being the worst it's been, we are in the healthiest shape we've been financially.
Despite the current malaise, if we actually spend what is within our resources wisely enough this summer we can be genuine challengers from start to FINISH next season. If Liverpool can finish 7th and be title challengers the next season in April, then I see no reason why we can't.....except for the small matter of whether the manager is willing to do all of what is necessary....
It's 9 points from 9 games now. But we have three homes games where we will pick up three wins. But we have to pick up a win away from home.
Wenger is lucky that the home performances have been pretty decent overall so has avoided any fan reaction. Still pretty supportive although that could turn if the next home game against west ham is a draw.
Im with you mate. The common denominator is the manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
We've had 9 years of the same bullshit from him, the same capitulations from HIS players and the progress that we made earlier in the season is gone and we've actually regresed. This group have been together for 3-4 seasons yet they have not made any real progress and keep making the same mistakes they made at the beginning. The 06 to 09 teams were a talented bunch with RVC, a younger Rosicky, Cesc, Sagna, Adeisawhore, Flamini, Nasri (even Henry was there for a bit too) etc but they failed too! this man is the problem and the longer he stays the longer we'll wait for real progress and trophies.
His obsession with these tiny midgets who can play neat one twos is the real reason why his teams arent balanced and dont deliver sucess. Just how many of these kinda players has he signed over the last 10 years? Rosicky, Ozil, Cazorla, Hleb, Wilshere, Podolski, Nasri, Ramsay, Arteta etc just to name a few. these players are actually decent but they should be complimented by diferent type of players in order for us to go somewhere.
That's the problem though NQ, when we talk about Arsene's Footballing achievements it's all done in past tense, it's all about what he did, not what he is currently doing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Maybe we are at cross purposes but what does the modern game have to do with Arsene's obvious flaws in his approach to managing the "Football team"?
I really respect some of you guys for the patience you have shown with him, how you can want him in charge for another season completely baffles me. I am literally praying he walks away this summer, I've had enough.
That's pretty warped. Wenger didn't invent this style of football.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Swansea, Southampton, Liverpool and Everton are clear examples of teams that can play an attractive brand of football and don't have the same sort of problems we have breaking down more organised teams. It's no excuse. We're not even being hampered by teams parking the bus. They're just coming at us and getting points.
We have absolutely no pace whatsoever in our breaking, our build up, recovery or passing. It's all so pedestrian!Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
This is why we're getting tucked up, because we're just so slow at everything.
The manager is completely to blame here, because you can't keep watching your team taking an extra one, two or three passes to get it out wide, when one ball would suffice. Or playing a team that is as flat as a pancake with no runners or movers in the team.
The balance of the side he's currently relying on is shockingly unbalanced. Back to the no width, no pace, no ANYTHING!
The one striker, who is already on his holidays, is starved of any service, and our playmakers, don't playmake. They just pass it square.
When we get turned, there is no recovery pace (see Lukaku's goal).
We're a tired, tired team, with very obvious tactics, which don't change game to game.
Fucking awful we were yesterday. Fucking shit.
We just have to hope and pray we've got enough left in the tank to finish 4th and win the cup because on current evidence the lights are on but no one is home.
Wenger's reputation is really on the line now.
What the hell?Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I was saying the football we used to play was at a level higher than we've seen since. Is anyone genuinely going to argue this is not the case? Because the game has changed in such negative ways. I'm not saying certain teams aren't capable of playing good football - nowhere did I say that. I'm also not claiming we are playing good football now, we aren't. What I'm saying is the modern game is negative, less entertaining, probably because so much is at stake financially. Although I think Maureen actually enjoys the shite he serves up.
And mods - if you are going to remove my posts then please remove the post by the twat who prompted my response. Hopefully you're not asking me to reply politely to twattish messages, because that will never happen. If boys who think they are big want to play then let everyone else play.
I read Arseblog, Le Grove and Gunnersblog this morning and they all concluded the same thing. It’s really poor and Wenger must see what’s going wrong but he’s being pig headed. I don’t think it’s down to a lack of desire from the players. They have everything to play for. Confidence must be rock bottom but they’re getting nothing back from the manager. It’s the same approach each game and those words in Fergie’s book about Wenger’s arrogance really ring true on this occasion. It’s like he’s trying to prove something.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
When we play with Flamini & Arteta - it basically meant yesterday our goals from open play had to come from Rosicky, Podolski, Cazorla & Giroud - 2 of these are past their best, 1 needs better players around him on his wavelength & the other one is shit.
We went again to be negative, you cannot play Flams & Arts & expect to be anything else. When you play negatively & get caught out by going a goal or 2 down you then make the changes to try & score - we don't. Its like we're playing to keep the score down. Brings on Ox right at the end & we hit the bar because he drives at defenders. Whilst Wenger can claim a tactical reason not the start him, he cannot defend not bringing him on as soon as the second goal went in, don't even wait for half time. Wenger simply doesn't have this decision making in him because it proves he started with the wrong selection - he hates being proved wrong.
With 9 games to go we were 4 points off the top and had a game in hand.
We surely can't be that rubbish and while we've not always been pretty to watch this season we have been effective.
I think the point about being tired might be a big factor, we're not got a big squad, we're too reliant on a few key players and we're not able to rotate as much as we need to if we're going to challenge properly over the whole season.
Oh dear - think NQ's cracking - does anyone think after yesterdays garbage he might have put his rose tinted glasses down on the table & thought "shit - the others may have a point here"Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Amen brother!
There comes a time for everyone, even Wenger, when pigheaded goes out the window because you have to rescue a serious situation. It's inconceivable a professional would sit there and take hammering after hammering and think any minute now it will all change. It's not a reasonable or realistic theory to be putting forward. I really don't see why the players get such an easy ride, barring the usual targets who are no worse than the rest. Arteta being a prime example. Questions need to be asked about the desire of some of these guys. Like Cazorla and Podolski who routinely throw their full backs under the bus. Or Giroud when the ball doesn't arrive fast enough so he gives up on trying to find the run or the space and just stands there like a lemon. Or Monreal when time and again he leaves the space and gets badly exposed and doesn't have the pace to compensate. Does he not see things happening on the pitch at all? And Rosicky when he has space, looks up, find his man, and passes to the opposition. Or Sagna when he has time to put the cross in and balloons it. There's a fair degree of panic on display from this lot when teams come to close us down. They lack composure and yet supposedly this is the sort of stuff we practise on the training ground over and over. How many times has our passing gone to hell this season? Passing used to be the one thing we could manage with some degree of proficiency. If the argument is Wenger refuses to change you have to then assume he's using the same methods to train the players. And if he's using the same methods and up until recently we could pass a ball, then what's up with this lot? You can say yes, Wenger signed them, so he takes responsibility for that. But what about the responsibility a player should take for not being able to pass the ball 5 yards? We don't play the same tactics every game either - that's just one of those cosy little criticisms that doesn't hold up if you watch the games. Sometimes we press, sometimes we don't. Sometimes we play high, sometimes we don't. Now if you're saying we seem to vary it in the wrong way for the given opponent, it does seem to be that way at least some of the time. Other times we get it spot on though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
You're being one dimensional. I don't judge anything over one game. My argument has never been we've been playing good football this season. We haven't. But there's an idea going around the "modern" game has passed Wenger by. Maybe it has. All I'm saying is it's a shame because the modern game is shite. Now as to you trying to put words in my mouth, let me be clear - no, I didn't think the game yesterday was fabulous. Maybe a few on here desperate to slag the club at all costs took a perverse pleasure in the nature of the result, if not the result itself, but not me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine