Wenger Referendum: Yes Or No

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

It's funny how you advocate someone that has recent success yet stick up for Wenger.

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Didn't realise let's make sure we are getting someone better is a ringing endorsement of Wenger...sticking up for Wenger would be me saying, he's done a good job...he deserves his wages, the characterisation of him as cumudgeonly, intransigent etc is unfair. I don't recall me saying those things, i'm let's get someone in who is guaranteed to push us on not anyone but Wenger

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Originally Posted by selassie

:gp:

Yep, it's pretty much a dream job when it comes up for grabs, we will have no shortage of candidates and I would expect them to be top notch ones aswell.

I personally think if we do not see any progress this season, progress both in performance and in terms of strengthening the squad, then I feel Arsene should step aside.

I have major issues with Arsene's management so maybe regardless of what we do his time should be up.

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I'm not attaching any particular time frame to it, myself. I agree that it's probably time that we started making plans for life after Wenger, but I also think that his 3 year deal could be an advantage to us, if it buys us a bit of time to really get that decision right (or maybe even wait for some top candidates to run down their contracts)? He may not be able to take us to that next level, but he's still good enough to keep us more or less where we want to be in the meantime, so I'm not in any immediate rush to see it happen...

Hmmm i'd rather see him go before 2017 if we had someone top class to replace him with, it's incredibly frustrating to be in September and be pretty assured that you won't be winning any major honours again.

Time for a change. Even Fergie called time on his Man U career. Enough is enough.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

let's get someone in who is guaranteed to push us on not anyone but Wenger

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Unfortunately that's pretty much impossible.

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Originally Posted by LDG

I sided on "no" at the end of last season, though like others also thought maybe he deserved a chance to spend some dosh after winning the FA Cup.

Though what I thought about tactical and preparative measures at the end of last season prevail in this.

It's unforgivable to keep leaving is short, both in personel and in conditioning prior to playing each game. No thought of the opposition is ever apparent. That's not confidence, that's neglagence.

I'm not about to crucify the bloke (he seems to be tarnishing his own legacy anyway), call him an idiot etc.as I think he deserves repect, and a place amongst other Arsenal heros. He is quite possibly the most influential manager in our history (for good things). And, dare I say it, in the English game.

It should be the owners and board who let him go quietly, and with respect, as he's hanging himself little bit at the moment.

Will always love the geezer though.

Even though it's a "no". Hope he proves me wrong.

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Someone on the Arseblog summed it up well enough. When we had the best players in the league we could let them go out there and figure out how to win the games, we only had Man U as competition. Now there are at least three other teams, with players every bit as good as ours and the dated approach 'go out there and be creative' isn't good enough, which is why we have floundered in the league for so long.

There's no guarantee that by leaving we'll get in someone who can do better but there is a guarantee that with Wenger staying we will not progress at all which is not good enough given the resources available.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

I'm not attaching any particular time frame to it, myself. I agree that it's probably time that we started making plans for life after Wenger, but I also think that his 3 year deal could be an advantage to us, if it buys us a bit of time to really get that decision right (or maybe even wait for some top candidates to run down their contracts)? He may not be able to take us to that next level, but he's still good enough to keep us more or less where we want to be in the meantime, so I'm not in any immediate rush to see it happen...

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Fourth place is a tight rope that cannot be balanced forever. The teams below are getting hungrier and growing in belief they can snatch a place. With Liverpool back in the frame now, 5 into 4 doesn't go. We keep pushing our luck and at some point it is going to run out. For us to fall out of the top 4 with the money available and players in the squad it would be a far worse scenario than when Liverpool fell prey to the same thing.

I see what you are saying. But tbh, I'm pretty fed up with the CL. We have become so uncompetitive in it that I don't look forward to it at all. I understand we need it for the revenue (perhaps a bit less now) but this season it would be great if we could just have the money without having to go through the formality of getting knocked out in the last 16.

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Originally Posted by Steve French

I see what you are saying. But tbh, I'm pretty fed up with the CL. We have become so uncompetitive in it that I don't look forward to it at all. I understand we need it for the revenue (perhaps a bit less now) but this season it would be great if we could just have the money without having to go through the formality of getting knocked out in the last 16.

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:gp:

Amen brotha.. watching us qualify and get knocked out in the last 16 or at best quarters without challenging is just tiring.

I've enjoyed the group games over the last couple of years but we have zero chance of winning it so in some ways it's pointless being in there.

i think there is a prestige that goes to being in Europe's premier competition along with the money, but it's clear we should be doing better in the competition (Martin Samuel actually having a point about our being seeded for the competition, how are we seeded and Dortmund aren't?)
It always used to be that we were virtually impregnable at home no matter who we played, but it was our away form that sank us....now we seem to get equally roughed up at the Emirates which is disheartening.

Time for him to go. He is stubborn, self centred and an egotist. The signings over the Summer were good, but his failure to strengthen our defense highlights his inability to see the full picture.

The last CL game that I really enjoyed was the game we beat Barca in. That was a magical CL night!

Fair enough,

I've enjoyed the odd few and here since then, although ultimately futile on both counts the home game against AC Milan and the away game against Bayern Munich where we won 3-0 and 2-0 respectively hold fond memories for me

The Napoli game at home where we kill the game off in the first fifteen minutes and a really electric atmosphere at the stadium, and the away game in Dortmund last season where a very similar team to the one that got spanked on Tuesday put in a wonderfully committed and spirited display and nicked a 1-0 win.

But i can see your point, the home game against Barcelona is for me the best Arsenal game to have been played at the Emirates.

I thought about the Bayern and Milan game as well, however, my opinion is that those games were killed off in the first leg itself and the other teams were just complacent. A lot of people may disagree with that statement though.

I would agree but Bayern took a two nil lead into their second leg against Juventus in the quarter final, and won 2-0 in the second leg in Turin. They then obviously took a 4-0 lead against Barcelona into the Nou Camp and won 3-0 there.

Against Bayern had we not taken an early lead we probably would have drawn only like last season but that's how games go.

AC Milan....we should never have been 4-0 down in the tie in the first place, even in the season after we lost Fabregas, Nasri etc i still feel we were a better side than them.

I think these results illustrate my frustration with Wenger, that i think there is an ability to mastermind excellent tactical performances that see us pick up fantastic results down the years. For example we didn't win the league at Old Trafford in 2002 purely because we were the better side, we actually had a lot of injuries and suspensions for that game (Henry being the notable one) but we played to draw the sting out of United and then hit them on the break.

I think his major failing is this fixation with us emulating Barcelona's two-three touch football, we have never been able to master it without looking toothless....we have never been able to pass teams to death, the genius of our play under Wenger was quick one touch passing counter thrusts which would annhilate the opposistion through pace and precision.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

.....that was a question. What's wrong with you? A very basic question I asked you to answer since you brought in the part about what the media predicting our fall from the top 4. We never usually pay attention to what they say so why is it relevant when talking about Wenger's reign as manager? An answer would be nice.

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It's relevant because the Anyone but Wenger brigade fly into a panic and say if we don't sack him now we will finish outside the top four (which seems a bit contradictory as many of them proclaim that they don't care whether we qualify for the Champions League because we fail to make our mark on the competition anyway).
You seemed to be implying (i could be wrong) that we were overacheiving by getting into 4th, clearly not what i think but i was also alluding to how you had stated that the top managers were unavaliable to us and using that as a reason not to get rid of Wenger. When actually what i said is that we want to make sure one of those top manager is avaliable to us before we took the steps to displacing him.
None of is under any illusion that Wenger will magically change his ways, i don't believe for a second he is incompitent his problem is intransigence....arguably the difference between that and neglect/incompitence is pretty superficial when you look at how much he earns and some of the perilous situations we find ourselves in, of his making. The simple fact is that Wenger has been here 18 years, and i'm entitled to want a guarantee of something better (which i'm not convinced at this moment Martinez represents) in order to make a change.
Where as i think too many people are entrenched in personal animus against Wenger, that anything represents a positive change from him.

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

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And then the Banks will pay back the bail out money they owe Western Governments
ISIS will release all their hostages and release a press statement saying they are committed to Openness, Secularism and Democracy
The Republicans in the House of Representatives will start working with President Obama to get legislation passed
Henry Kissinger will stand trial for war crimes committed against the peoples of Cambodia and Indonesia
Robert Mugabe will leave office of his own volition
And the lame will walk, and the blind will see.....

Anyway you can see where i'm going with this.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

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It should only be the champions.
There is a clue in the name.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

i think there is a prestige that goes to being in Europe's premier competition along with the money, but it's clear we should be doing better in the competition (Martin Samuel actually having a point about our being seeded for the competition, how are we seeded and Dortmund aren't?)
It always used to be that we were virtually impregnable at home no matter who we played, but it was our away form that sank us....now we seem to get equally roughed up at the Emirates which is disheartening.

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Yeah, I'm not feeling the prestige.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It should only be the champions.
There is a clue in the name.

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And yet in nine of the 22 seasons it has run under that format it has been won by a side that hasn't been champion of it's own domestic league the previous season.

Don't get me wrong i don't disagree with you, it's just funny when you think about it....well it's not really it happened as soon as they expanded the competition.

Under your format Real Madrid wouldn't have won last season nor Bayern Munich the season before that nor Chelsea the season before that (How i wish that had been the case, i still haven't gotten over that yet).

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Originally Posted by Steve French

Yeah, I'm not feeling the prestige.

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Hmm regardless of win, lose or draw i'd still rather us be playing the likes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona etc rather than the likes of Anorthosis Famagusta.

actually they aren't the best example, as they were in the champions league six years ago

AIK Solna?
FC Thun?
Rapid Vienna?
Heerenveen?

fuck!!!

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

It's relevant because the Anyone but Wenger brigade fly into a panic and say if we don't sack him now we will finish outside the top four (which seems a bit contradictory as many of them proclaim that they don't care whether we qualify for the Champions League because we fail to make our mark on the competition anyway).
You seemed to be implying (i could be wrong) that we were overacheiving by getting into 4th, clearly not what i think but i was also alluding to how you had stated that the top managers were unavaliable to us and using that as a reason not to get rid of Wenger. When actually what i said is that we want to make sure one of those top manager is avaliable to us before we took the steps to displacing him.
None of is under any illusion that Wenger will magically change his ways, i don't believe for a second he is incompitent his problem is intransigence....arguably the difference between that and neglect/incompitence is pretty superficial when you look at how much he earns and some of the perilous situations we find ourselves in, of his making. The simple fact is that Wenger has been here 18 years, and i'm entitled to want a guarantee of something better (which i'm not convinced at this moment Martinez represents) in order to make a change.
Where as i think too many people are entrenched in personal animus against Wenger, that anything represents a positive change from him.

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How is any of this personal? It's no different to fans wanting an under performing player benched or sold.

I have no idea whose apart of the 'Anyone but Wenger' brigade but from this thread alone you've got my views on the criteria for the next coach along with a few others. Second, I think you've misunderstood why people want him gone. It's not fueled by a fear of dropping out of the top four. It's that tedious feeling you get when watching a game, or the transfer window, the press comments from players and coach....we've heard it all and seen it all before and nothing is changing. Our style is a bore to watch and we're no longer exciting. It's all been said on a thousand times so there shouldn't be a need for me to regurgitate. It's an on going cycle I just want out of. Even if a Top 4 spot could be guaranteed for the next 10 years under Wenger, I wouldn't want it because I'm so tired seeing the same mistakes repeated.

There are no guarantees in this situation. Martinez is one of the names floating around but there really is no point in playing the 'name that manager' game. I know I don't have enough time to watch all the top leagues and teams to know whose doing what and where and I'm that's true for most. Martinez is the hot name buzzing around in the Prem at the moment and because this is the league we all mainly watch, maybe that's the easiest of names to pick out along with the Klopp's and Pep's.

Also, I wasn't implying we've overachieved by staying in the Top 4. Far from it. I can't speak for everyone, but the argument that keeps getting thrown back is that if we change manager, we could get worse and fall out of the top 4. Sticking with the status quo which seemed to be what you were implying with the 'leaky roof and no tools' response to my analogy. There must be candidates out there that can do the job and as another poster said and the OP stated, we're not putting a firm deadline on when he has to go. It's just a general discussion and I'm hoping the Board have their eye open now and are ready to act if a suitable candidate pops up and one will.

Has anyone checked on Ollie today? Someone needs to drive to beachy head and see if his car's there.

Us not being in the Champions League. :lol:

No thanks. Although I suppose there comes a point every season when we aren't in. Or March as we like to call it.

WUMger can stay, he got the albatross of not winning something away from us, this will be his last contact so just going to wait it out.

#WeWantOurOllieBack

I think there are people on this board who are quite vitriolic towards Wenger, and whilst this doesn't offend my personal sensibilities i tend to be less inclined to take any real interest in what they have to say. I haven't directed my comments at you personally, but i don't think i am attacking a straw man either.
I also think a lot of responses to what i have had to say has been directed at me like i am pro-wenger or a wenger apologist, but i am also quite conservative and risk adverse and i have quite consistently stated that i don't want someone to come in who has no previous experience of winning major silverware and managing at the top level (i.e champions league) therefore for me the "name that manager" game as you call it would be crucial to my decision making.
But and this is the important point it's all academic, unless he relegates us or gets arrested in relation to Op Yewtree investigations he is with us till 2017; it was a poor decision by the board but unfortunately we have to live with it.

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Originally Posted by She Wore A Yellow Ribbon

Has anyone checked on Ollie today? Someone needs to drive to beachy head and see if his car's there.

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That's the problem with this country, we are always so concerned about stopping people from committing suicide....as long as he's not inconveniencing anyone else let him do it

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I think there are people on this board who are quite vitriolic towards Wenger, and whilst this doesn't offend my personal sensibilities i tend to be less inclined to take any real interest in what they have to say. I haven't directed my comments at you personally, but i don't think i am attacking a straw man either.
I also think a lot of responses to what i have had to say has been directed at me like i am pro-wenger or a wenger apologist, but i am also quite conservative and risk adverse and i have quite consistently stated that i don't want someone to come in who has no previous experience of winning major silverware and managing at the top level (i.e champions league) therefore for me the "name that manager" game as you call it would be crucial to my decision making.
But and this is the important point it's all academic, unless he relegates us or gets arrested in relation to Op Yewtree investigations he is with us till 2017; it was a poor decision by the board but unfortunately we have to live with it.

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There is no decision to make on this one. It's just your feeling on how the manager is doing and whether it's time he calls it a day. That's what the poll is about. The OP said he didn't want this sort of debate and talk of the details of who we get and when. Just a simple yes or no. As things progress, I'm sure they'll be further debates but I seriously doubt we'll know how the process will go when it's time for him to walk. In most cases, you just don't know whose available as manager until someone is sacked or leaves. That's usually very late in the day.

As for the language used on here towards Wenger.....you're talking to football fans! :lol: We have guys on here that have no problem calling refs and linesmen 'cunts', bent, or whatever else when a decision doesn't go our way. Our own players aren't even spared. From Diaby to Wilshere to Ramsey if they're having a bad day. Former players that served us well are cast aside even. Sometimes I disagree with what's been said as well but I never assume it's personal. It's cool if you don't take an interest in what they say, but that seems the opposite from where I'm sitting because you seem to know a lot of the common things said on here.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

That's the problem with this country, we are always so concerned about stopping people from committing suicide....as long as he's not inconveniencing anyone else let him do it

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:haha:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

There is no decision to make on this one. It's just your feeling on how the manager is doing and whether it's time he calls it a day. That's what the poll is about.

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For me my judgement on whether he should call it a day is based completely on who we had in mind to replace him with, making it much like the referendum that was held yesterday i imagine a lot of people who voted No didn't do so out of any love for the Union or any desire to call themselves British instead of Scottish it's just they weren't convinced by the alternative and played it safe.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

As for the language used on here towards Wenger.....you're talking to football fans! :lol: We have guys on here that have no problem calling refs and linesmen 'cunts', bent, or whatever else when a decision doesn't go our way. Our own players aren't even spared. From Diaby to Wilshere to Ramsey if they're having a bad day. Former players that served us well are cast aside even. Sometimes I disagree with what's been said as well but I never assume it's personal. It's cool if you don't take an interest in what they say, but that seems the opposite from where I'm sitting because you seem to know a lot of the common things said on here.

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Like i said it doesn't in any way offend me, i just find myself less interested in someone's argument if it's not articulated well. We all call the players unspeakable things out of frustration, it's not really a cojent argument though it's vitriolic abuse. It doesn't bother me that it's that, vitriolic abuse is fun and allows people to vent their frustrations....but it certainly isn't persuasive in any shape or form.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

For me my judgement on whether he should call it a day is based completely on who we had in mind to replace him with, making it much like the referendum that was held yesterday i imagine a lot of people who voted No didn't do so out of any love for the Union or any desire to call themselves British instead of Scottish it's just they weren't convinced by the alternative and played it safe.

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I think they voted no mostly because they are stupid, cowardly, grovelling cunts.

So you've voted for independence, too bad Mugabe is not budging!

Some really interesting debate generated and quite a few home truths regards WUMget's performance review. I am convinced Wenger is GWer, how else could he be the best WUM in the business. I love the bastard immensely, but the post below from MOe best describes my opinion.

PS* If we sacked WUmget at the end of a season there would be no shortage of really good managers queueing up to take that job, so let's not scaremonger please. It's really down to the people charged with replacing him making the right decision.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I felt he should have left with his head held high after the cup win, however I think he also deserved a chance to spend some of the new money that wasn't previously available to him. There was some cause for optimism after winning the cup and landing a player like Sanchez but it seems like we're not really much stronger as a team, arguably weaker right now thanks to the regression of a defence that was previously ok.

He shot himself in the foot in the transfer window, for the first time in years he had backing from the masses but now he's back to square one. Not signing adequate numbers in defence was just plain foolish and he completely missed a trick by not bringing Cesc back or at least finding an upgrade on Flamini/Arteta.

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.

He's been a top manager for us but unless there is dramatic success coming over the next 3 years, he's going to leave with his legacy tarnished and that's just sad because he is a great man who has put this club in a position we couldn't have dreamed about 20 years ago.

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Originally Posted by Maestro

So you've voted for independence, too bad Mugabe is not budging!

Some really interesting debate generated and quite a few home truths regards WUMget's performance review. I am convinced Wenger is GWer, how else could he be the best WUM in the business. I love the bastard immensely, but the post below from MOe best describes my opinion.

PS* If we sacked WUmget at the end of a season there would be no shortage of really good managers queueing up to take that job, so let's not scaremonger please. It's really down to the people charged with replacing him making the right decision.

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No-one is scare mongering, i am not saying we should keep Wenger because we won't get in a top manager, i am saying Wenger should go IF we can get in a top manager.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

No-one is scare mongering, i am not saying we should keep Wenger because we won't get in a top manager, i am saying Wenger should go IF we can get in a top manager.

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That's not really part of the debate we can explore much as fans. Knowledge contained behind closed doors will always be ahead of what we know out here. Who is available and who isn't really something we can base this decision on. The only sensible criteria is to look Wenger's management over the past few years. We can't guarantee the next guy will be better even if he has a proven record elsewhere. The only single guarantee is that Wenger will not change. Remember we knew nothing about this guy before he utterly transformed our club.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

I think they voted no mostly because they are stupid, cowardly, grovelling cunts.

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Not as cowardly as the myopic dunderheads on here who know Wenger is the main problem at the club but don't want him to leave simply because he brings the guarantee of 4th place. To what end is the 4th place? because we are never going to win the CL under him. More to the point, his continued ineptitude in this competition brings the whole rationale of the 4th place into jeopardy. Currently EPL, La Liga and the Bundesliga have 4 places. Serie A lost 1 place to the bundesliga as Italian teams started to toil. The same could happen here If we continue to flounder, all it takes is for 1 Italian team to probably reach the final or win it for the EPL card to be marked. The very thing we hold dear above all could be our Waterloo. It would be better for the English league for us to drop out and a team with the means and manager to take our place.

Sadly I dont think, even 5th place would be enough for the man to resign, he doesn't have enough pride for that and will probably still see out his contract

He needs to stop signing players and pushing them where they aren't able to play in.

Just look at Arshavin.

Same thing happening to Ozil