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I don't agree about the Vieira captain thing
Great physical presence and technical ability but definitely not a leader
The fact is the idea of leadership and character on the pitch is an outmoded idea
It's about tactical discipline, captains actually mean very little in this day and age
Our captain situation is as comical as our defending/tactics/transfer policy/injuries. You could give Wenger £200M, he still couldn't get it right. The next 3 years are going to be awful, and very repetitive.
Really - don't remember too many 8-2 drubbings by the Mancs or 5 & 6's against Liverpool & Chelsea when he was captain. The players followed his tenacity ( at times a little to much it could be said ) but we were a horrible team to play & wouldn't collapse as we have done in recent years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Vieira played in the 6-1 defeat to United at Old Trafford
And we were tough to beat because we had a large, physically imposing team with many players six foot plus. Nothing to do with Vieira's leadership.
This is the same Vieira whose leadership skills included getting himself sent off for losing his head at actual or perceived provocation
Is that a fact?!Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
How can leadership and character on the pitch ever be a bad thing?
It's not a bad thing it's just a myth that it makes any difference
Players are either good or they aren't, the managers tactics are either good or they aren't
In this day and age it doesn't really matter who your captain is if you have quality of players and tangible tactics
No, it isn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
I've seen interviews with players who played under Adams who have said how his leadership geed them up for games.
The fact is this is happening far too regularly these days (and that really is a fact) and I don't believe the fact we've not had a proper captain for years is a co-incidence. It's nothing to do with whether our players are good enough, there are ways of reacting to setbacks and far too often we fold under pressure.
Leadership still plays an important part in the game, there's no doubt about that.....some players can't deal with adversity others respond....captains or leaders are those that organise, motivate and make player raise their games, either vocally or through their performances/actions.....it's a long time since we've had leaders and it shows.
The top clubs have those players who lead by example and try and make things happen even when the flow is going against them, we just shrivel and disappear.
Vieira was a great leader in that he would fight for every ball, try and make things happen even if we were behind, he didn't let his head drop and allow the opposition to have it all their own way.
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Originally Posted by Letters
Tony Adams - exactly, you are hailing back to a time where leadership on the pitch made a difference
Do you know who the Captain was for Real Madrid who won the European cup? (Iker Casillas?)
When someone earns the amount Ramsey does, your not going to listen to another player telling you to stop bombing forward
That becomes the managers responsibility to implement a reasonable tactical plan
The manager is incapable of motivating and has always been found to be tactically naive, in the successful years he relied on players who motivated and knew how to handle adversity.
With no players like that now we can see the result.
On what basis would you say that's changed then?Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Are you arguing it's because they earn so much money now?
A myth in your own weird world - captains not being important on the pitch, FFS.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
I watched that last night, switched off, and went to bed and had a long peaceful nights sleep.
It happens too often now to get depressed about it.
I find I'm much happier without too much football nowadays. It stinks, it's corrupt and there's too much money in it.
I was soooo happy we got the FA Cup last year, and so I think I've drawn a line under it now. Unless football cleans itself up, I don't think I want to waste my life on it anymore.
I think it's contributed
I think the general attitude has changed
With multi millionaires everywhere and agents whispering in people's ears, the ego of your average footballer is inflated to the point where they don't respond as well to people with stronger personalities.
But my main point was dismissing the idea that Vieira had a leaders personality, he didnt, he was physically imposing, strong and naturally athletic. But personality wise he was weak, quick to temper and you didnt see him talking to his team mates. He was given the captaincy to stop him from leaving nothing more.
I agree that even if leadership was an issue we have no players with strong personalities, just very dull, spoilt rich boys
I pretty much completely agree with you, the thing is I keep telling myself I won't waste my time on it but keep getting drawn back.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
I think a lot of people will end up feeling like this. I used to love boxing too - then money became the point and I haven't watched since. Used to watch American football when they had a fair draft system and before the big free agency changes came in, now it's a joke. Modern sport = small minority of greedy fuckers positioning themselves to squeeze the fans (entertainment and credibility optional). Formula 1, two teams can't even make the grid because some horrible little shit of a crook hasn't got enough billions yet. We need to put the sport back into sport and that will mean kicking the crooks out. We can't expect the governing bodies to do it because look at any sport and they are the most corrupt of all. Fans will need to do it and I have no problem whatsoever with violence if need be in this case.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
Just think its so called influence is massively overstated nowQuote:
Originally Posted by Dein-machine
Germany would have won the World Cup without Lahm (and I really rate Lahm)
:good:Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
I keep an eye on it and of course was pleased we won the Cup but my main reaction last night was: LOL!
I'm too old to be that arsed any more.
We are not Germany or Real Madrid. We have nowhere near the quality of individual per position that these teams have. They hardly ever have to adopt a different approach during a game & they don't have limited individuals needing guidance. We unfortunately do, which is why We need a leader on the pitch. If you made Arteta captain of either Real Madrid or Germany, they would still win things but because of Wengers' pursuit of trying to polish turds we are not in that position.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
How shit has Ramsey been this season btw? The old bad habits have managed to creep back in to his game.
The only thing that makes captaincy redundant is when you appoint weak minded shrills to the job like Wenger does. He gives it to the player who his whim takes him to give not because he has the right temperament or characteristics but often as a sop to keep him (Henry, Fabregas). Vieira was a leader and his characteristics matched that of the team, we were dogged and difficult to beat. Now we give it to Arteta because he has nice hair. You could argue that Vermaelen had been captain of Ajax before so was a natural leader but when he doesn't play then it has no meaning. This team mirrors Wengers personality, fragile, febrile and effeminate.
Its quite well known that Wenger does`nt like strong personalities. He avoids them. they may start asking shit like "why do we always play for 4th"
Everyone linked to Arsenal must feel ashamed of that result . Totally embarrassing and shameful , not only for the players .
1) Players : they showed how immature they still are even though some are no longer teenagers . Many deserve the bench from now but that will never happen . Time to give a chance to other players
2) Boss : Clueless , tactically inerte and unable to manage his team in a big occasion . Still not sure about his best 11 and his best substitutes . Time to say goodbye ?
3) Fans : Cold and never drive their team to a win . They have made the Emirates a neutral stadium where any team can feel comfortable .How on hell , can visiting fans be louder in your own ground ? They should learn from Turkish teams . Regardless of result , fans should never make their place an easy paradise for a visiting team .
He doesn't play for the team, he plays to get the headlines. Seen his mate carry Tottenham and get a world record move to Real Madrid and he's after the same. Just the other day Wenger publicly said Ramsey shouldn't obsessed by scoring and that he should do his defensive work well. Yesterday he was constantly running beyond Welbeck and didn't have the legs/didn't want to make it back.
Everything went to shit once Arteta went off and Flamini is awful so Ramsey really shouldn't leave him so open in midfield. Brainless and selfish play. He was much more concerned about getting his goal. And why the fuck did Podolski allow that cross in? He'd only just come on so can't blame tired legs. Silly move by Wenger to bring him on at all when we're trying to protect a lead.
Another thing that really pisses me off is the lack of nous. Only Monreal had a yellow card. When we're trying to chase a game we always get schooled on the cynical side of the game but somehow we never apply the same tricks when we need to. You have to break up opposition play with fouls high up the pitch, you've got to feign injury, get a stretcher on, waste some time, dive, win free kicks, let Szczesny get booked for taking goal kicks too slowly...all that dirty, cunty stuff that's ruining football - that's what we needed to do. Just slow everything down and get numbers behind the ball.
The comments he makes these days are really the rumblings of senile dementia setting in. If you had a business where the sales guys were doing their stuff & the order books were bursting but you weren't producing the goods in time, if the M.D came out to say that he didn't think he needed to improve production because its not where the problem lies - the owners of the business would & should remove him from his position. As the problems are so obvious the board should suggest a meeting with him to decide his immediate future should he be in any doubt about buying a quality defender & DM in the transfer window. No one is bigger than the club is what you here from every person in football - doesn't seem to be that way at Arsenal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
He's been awful. He can barely pass the ball these days and his positioning seems to be totally off, he was playing like a Centre Forward in the last 20 mins last night, WTF?!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Right now he's a bench player, Wilshere should start ahead of him.
Halve the ticket prices and then halve the top price tickets again and you'll get that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
Wenger must have worked his magic on him pre-season & turned him into shit again. I fear for Alexis, another few months under Wenger & he'll be playing for Barnet next year.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
1 & 2 yes, 3 Never? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
He's activated full on Stevie Me mode.
Dude, we wont... trust me. We seem to be in the zone of going '10-12 games unbeaten'. This will be the stat Wenger will use to define consistency. We may even close the gap to Chelsea in the meanwhile. We hit free fall everytime we play a succession of games against top teams. Right now Dortmund looks like that game but they are qualified and we are at home... we will nick a draw.Quote:
Originally Posted by Globalgunner
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Loblaw
I'd love it if we can bring in Ronaldo and Messi at Arsenal for a few months. Watch how they look clueless under this manager. Buying (or rather not buying) of players is not the issue at Arsenal, the problem is the manager. He is past his sell by date and unfortunately we have a board who are incompetent to do anything about it.
Yes Wenger said to the press he wanted an all round game from him. He said the goals would come once he's doing the basics and the idiot pays no attention. I hope he gets benched for the next few games. That's the one occasion you can say Wenger has given a player instructions and he's either too think to follow through or just totally ignored him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
:gp: You're not the only one. I had the game on in the background but wasn't paying it too much attention or getting over excited or frustrated with the performance. We've seen it all before.Quote:
Originally Posted by LDG
I read today that the Anderlecht manager said in his post match interview that they had to change their tactics at half time and he was very surprised that Arsenal never responded to this.He obviously has not watched Arsenal much then.
Swap Schneiderlein with Ramsey or Wilshere and we're a better team. More responsible and at least equal talent
That "British core" lark went well :haha:
We better keep hoping United stay messing up cos I cant see how we're supposed to catch Southampton. Better defence, midfield and to my eye attack. I'll re-evaluate attack when Walcott and Ozil come back.
We really actually need just one swap... swap wenger for a good manager and we should be good. Also, dont hold your breath on Ozil coming back and setting the world on fire. Not till Wenger is in charge at least..Quote:
Originally Posted by BOBN
Here we go again. A player coming back from a long lay-off and suddenly he's shit, sell him. Fans :haha:
Way OTT comments on Ramsey! Very harsh imo. He's just not playing well and it isn't through selfishness or want of trying. Last season means he has the belief to keep going and he is probably just trying to play through it.....and with some justification. It doesn't mean he should abandon his defensive duties but the fitness statistics he once achieved aren't attained easily....
Other than players being older and more experienced than him and/or his captain, he just might listen to a team mate because he has a little humility and is as unassuming a footballer as you'll find.....so I completely disagree with the point about a player like him who earns what he does being adverse to listening.
As a professional you need to filter the advice you receive which is no doubt coming out of every external orifice in sight. Some will contradict each other and many of them won't be right. He will need to work it out for himself and find his way despite some of the good advice he may well be getting.
Youre right.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
Last week I saw the most complete defensive midfield performances in this country for years from Alex Song. He gallavanted about for us.
Fabregas is showing he can play in a midfield 2 at Chelsea, something he was so incapable of here we changed formation.
Wenger is a destroyer of midfielders. Bring in somebody serious and we may be able to salvage Ramsey, Ozil
and Wilshere.