Liverpool 3-3 Wengers Minions

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Originally Posted by Özim

I was thinking when we were leading yesterday that had we won it would have massively increased belief (I certainly would have been more convinced about our chances), we would have opened a nice gap over Man City and actually won one of those harder games that can really give a team belief (just like the vistories against Man U in the past).

As far as I'm concerned all this will do is put doubts in the players minds, just as a victory would have done the opposite, leading 3-2 until the end and dropping points will feel like a loss the substitutions during the match by Wenger were shockers, I wasn't surprised to see us concede, we've got a history of doing this and yet he brings off our best players who could help finish the match off or at least keep the pressure on Liverpool.

Big games like this at this stage of the season make all the difference in terms of belief IMO, as has been proved in the past.

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Maybe not winning it will drive us on!

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Originally Posted by AFC Leveller

Very disappointing to drop points right at the death, esp when you look at the chances we effed up when clean through. The title is anyone's this season and everyone keeps dropping points but i just dont think we wil win it mainly because our defending (not defenders as i think we have very good defenders) is poor. We have already conceded 21 goals this season.

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As have City :shrug:
Who knows this year. It's such a strange season.

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Originally Posted by Kano

I really don't think it was down to the subs that we lost. We had been struggling to clear the ball and keep hold of it for the previous twenty minutes and had gone the entire game without a central midfield. God knows where Flamini was for most of it. Campbell was absolutely shot and Walcott had been useless for the whole game so I get those subs. Arteta coming on for Ozil was a last roll to try and get some ball retention back. Ozil had effectively been out of the game for the previous 15. The momentum had mostly been with Liverpool throughout the game - as seen in their posseession and amount of shots on our goal and as the home side I expected them to be pushing as they did for the last quarter. If we actually had a midfield pair then I'm sure we wouldn't have been put under so much pressure last night. I don't think the subs had a things to do with that.

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We weren’t good in possession all game but our counter attacks kept us dangerous. Liverpool lost their way a little when Benteke came on but we played right into their hands by sitting deep and offering no attacking threat going forward. I think there was one moment where Ozil controlled the ball beautifully late in the game and whipped in a splendid cross for Ramsey which almost resulted in a goal. It looked like we still had a goal in us but he killed that threat with the subs and went defensive.

The subs had everything to do with it because football is as much about mentality as it is tactics and physicality. Ozil is a ball retention master, even when you think he is tired his mastery of the ball makes him the person you want in the other teams half to receive a long punt from the defence. He was not tired yesterday and the look on his face at being subbed tells everything.
If you are under pressure the last think to do is to cram into your own half and hope for the best. If you are going to defend for the last 10 mins, then you better be dammed good at it. We are patently not and our defensive performance all game had been ropey talk less of in the last 10 mins facing a barrage of attcks.
Pool were losing and the sight of our best player coming off only served to galvanise them back into action. You defend best with tactics not bodies. What did Arteta do for the 10 mins or so he was on except back us into our own box.
I have always wondered why managers order teams back into the box when they lose a player to a red card. What I would do is keep my fastest player on the half way line and tell my players to punt the ball up to him each opportunity they get. What this does is force the other team to keep at least 2 players in their own half instead of cramming the entire play into our own half. Basically this eves up the game as they need 2 players to take care of 1.
Wenger thinks he knows tactics, he patently doesn't because his 1 trick keeps getting rolled over almost every time he deploys it. He was happy at getting the point yesterday because basically he had prepared to get beat.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

The subs had everything to do with it because football is as much about mentality as it is tactics and physicality. Ozil is a ball retention master, even when you think he is tired his mastery of the ball makes him the person you want in the other teams half to receive a long punt from the defence. He was not tired yesterday and the look on his face at being subbed tells everything.
If you are under pressure the last think to do is to cram into your own half and hope for the best. If you are going to defend for the last 10 mins, then you better be dammed good at it. We are patently not and our defensive performance all game had been ropey talk less of in the last 10 mins facing a barrage of attcks.
Pool were losing and the sight of our best player coming off only served to galvanise them back into action. You defend best with tactics not bodies. What did Arteta do for the 10 mins or so he was on except back us into our own box.
I have always wondered why managers order teams back into the box when they lose a player to a red card. What I would do is keep my fastest player on the half way line and tell my players to punt the ball up to him each opportunity they get. What this does is force the other team to keep at least 2 players in their own half instead of cramming the entire play into our own half. Basically this eves up the game as they need 2 players to take care of 1.
Wenger thinks he knows tactics, he patently doesn't because his 1 trick keeps getting rolled over almost every time he deploys it. He was happy at getting the point yesterday because basically he had prepared to get beat.

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I remember Mexico having a player sent off in the World Cup once, the manager then brought on a striker and gave the opposition all sorts of problems and the effect of the extra man was greatly reduced.

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Originally Posted by Özim

I was thinking when we were leading yesterday that had we won it would have massively increased belief (I certainly would have been more convinced about our chances), we would have opened a nice gap over Man City and actually won one of those harder games that can really give a team belief (just like the vistories against Man U in the past).

As far as I'm concerned all this will do is put doubts in the players minds, just as a victory would have done the opposite, leading 3-2 until the end and dropping points will feel like a loss the substitutions during the match by Wenger were shockers, I wasn't surprised to see us concede, we've got a history of doing this and yet he brings off our best players who could help finish the match off or at least keep the pressure on Liverpool.

Big games like this at this stage of the season make all the difference in terms of belief IMO, as has been proved in the past.

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Yeah winning yesterday would have been a huge statement of intent. It's typical of us to concede a last minute equaliser and I did see it coming, we were on the back foot for the last 20 minutes.

I agree regarding the substitutions, I think Wenger panicked.

We have another big one coming up on Sunday, not looking forward to that after watching us last night.

He doesn't learn. I remember how NQ was pissed about the way the City game ended because we went defensive in a similar fashion. It would be ok with shut up shop and teams know they'll have a torrid time breaking us down but that's never the case. We've had this happen to us so many times but will Wenger learn from it or put it down to bad luck?

Yes and Ozil looked disappointed at being subbed. We should have let him play on.

Southampton, Bournemouth, Newcastle Ozil plays 90+ minutes. But he gets subbed against City and Liverpool? It really makes no sense.

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Originally Posted by selassie

It's typical of us to concede a last minute equaliser.

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Hasn't been this season, tbf.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

He doesn't learn. I remember how NQ was pissed about the way the City game ended because we went defensive in a similar fashion. It would be ok with shut up shop and teams know they'll have a torrid time breaking us down but that's never the case. We've had this happen to us so many times but will Wenger learn from it or put it down to bad luck?

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How many times has it cost us this season?

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Originally Posted by Letters

How many times has it cost us this season?

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It doesn't matter. Past seasons should have been a lesson and it's not as if this season is over. Frequency of the mistake is one thing but it's whether or not he understands that his subs can put pressure on the team and hand the other team the initiative.

:blink:

It doesn't matter?

Addendum.

I don't really like us going defensive, for the record, but I'd say past seasons have been a lesson when far too often we've been too gung-ho in tight games and got caught. It seems this a reaction to that. An over-reaction, maybe, but it's very rarely cost us this season.

Well no, I think it would have been ridiculous for us to do anything else other than try and hold on to what we had, our attacking players looked dead and we were finding it difficult to retain possession.

I would have been devestated if we had loads of chances to kill off the game (we didn't) and had liverpools equaliser came out of nowhere (it didn't).

I actually think considering how Liverpool went for the jugular we did well to get a draw, and it highlights that we miss players that can hold onto the ball and I'm hoping Elneny will be something of a solution to that.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

It doesn't matter. Past seasons should have been a lesson and it's not as if this season is over. Frequency of the mistake is one thing but it's whether or not he understands that his subs can put pressure on the team and hand the other team the initiative.

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I don't really see what other substitutions we could have made in fairness, it's not like we had control of the game when Ozil came off...if we had than I'd think it was a terrible substitution but given the state of the game I think any manager would have decided to try and hold on to what we had.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

The subs had everything to do with it because football is as much about mentality as it is tactics and physicality. Ozil is a ball retention master, even when you think he is tired his mastery of the ball makes him the person you want in the other teams half to receive a long punt from the defence. He was not tired yesterday and the look on his face at being subbed tells everything.
If you are under pressure the last think to do is to cram into your own half and hope for the best. If you are going to defend for the last 10 mins, then you better be dammed good at it. We are patently not and our defensive performance all game had been ropey talk less of in the last 10 mins facing a barrage of attcks.
Pool were losing and the sight of our best player coming off only served to galvanise them back into action. You defend best with tactics not bodies. What did Arteta do for the 10 mins or so he was on except back us into our own box.
I have always wondered why managers order teams back into the box when they lose a player to a red card. What I would do is keep my fastest player on the half way line and tell my players to punt the ball up to him each opportunity they get. What this does is force the other team to keep at least 2 players in their own half instead of cramming the entire play into our own half. Basically this eves up the game as they need 2 players to take care of 1.
Wenger thinks he knows tactics, he patently doesn't because his 1 trick keeps getting rolled over almost every time he deploys it. He was happy at getting the point yesterday because basically he had prepared to get beat.

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He is a master of retention but he had no support in the centre of the pitch, so he was limited with what he could do beyond that. There was a moment when we had come out from a corner and he received the ball on the touchline near the hallway line and found himself surrounded by 3/4 Liverpool players. He managed to get a throw-in from that situation but he was becoming increasingly isolated with no-one around him to receive the ball and keep it. And quite frankly he looked as tired as Campbell. With Ozil on the pitch and without, the momentum of the game didn’t change at all and that was mostly down to the fact Walcott, Flamini and Ramsey were not giving him enough support. That central pairing just does not work but it is all we have and we’ve managed to get through by the skin of our teeth up until this point. With Coquelin on the pitch I can guarantee we would’ve seen a different conclusion and none of the usual substitution/tactic stick beating.

I never watch Arsenal play even though I can get just about all their matches because I have no faith whatsoever and haven't had for years now.

I checked the score near the end when we were 3-2 up and Ozil was going off and I very much hoped we would hang on, I switched back just after the final whistle and the camera was on Firmino and then Klopp, I knew then we had not won.

I am not surprised we conceded and this is why I just cannot see us winning this league ever again, we are simply not good enough mentally and physically.

Until we get rid of Wenger with his dated ideas and locked principles, it will not change.

I would take second place now, but I am not sure we can even get that.

I apologise but its how I feel.

This vid is from last season

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIN4e0_2YSY

Same shit, different year :lol:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Hasn't been this season, tbf.

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True. We have fared quite well in the big games so far this season and have been 2 or 3 up going into the last few minutes so the pressure has been off so to speak.

Yesterday we retreated and they inevitably equalised, we were on the back foot for 20 minutes so it was no real surprise.

Time will tell but if we want to win this league we are going to need to manage our games better than we did yesterday.

Edited to add: My point is that I still remain unconvinced this team can manage games and handle pressure situations.

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Originally Posted by Letters

:blink:

It doesn't matter?

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‘Has it cost us this season?’ :doh: I really don’t get the way you think sometimes. That’s like a bad driver that constantly forgets to check his blind spot trying to defend not having an accident this year despite still having that same bad habit. The season isn’t over and even if it hasn’t cost us much this year, it needs correcting. Our subs shouldn’t work in the favour of the opposition.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I don't really see what other substitutions we could have made in fairness, it's not like we had control of the game when Ozil came off...if we had than I'd think it was a terrible substitution but given the state of the game I think any manager would have decided to try and hold on to what we had.

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Rambo, Bellerin and Flamini would have been my candidates to hit the bench if you’re going to go more defensive. Maybe Bellerin for Chambers and Rambo for Arteta. Fresh legs on in defensive positions rather than taking the sting out of our attack and leaving heavy legs on in defence.

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Originally Posted by Kano

He is a master of retention but he had no support in the centre of the pitch, so he was limited with what he could do beyond that. There was a moment when we had come out from a corner and he received the ball on the touchline near the hallway line and found himself surrounded by 3/4 Liverpool players. He managed to get a throw-in from that situation but he was becoming increasingly isolated with no-one around him to receive the ball and keep it. And quite frankly he looked as tired as Campbell. With Ozil on the pitch and without, the momentum of the game didn’t change at all and that was mostly down to the fact Walcott, Flamini and Ramsey were not giving him enough support. That central pairing just does not work but it is all we have and we’ve managed to get through by the skin of our teeth up until this point. With Coquelin on the pitch I can guarantee we would’ve seen a different conclusion and none of the usual substitution/tactic stick beating.

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Then why not change the central pairing if that's the problem? Take Flamini or Ramsey off instead of leaving them on if that's what wasn't working?

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

‘Has it cost us this season?’ :doh: I really don’t get the way you think sometimes. That’s like a bad driver that constantly forgets to check his blind spot trying to defend not having an accident this year despite still having that same bad habit. The season isn’t over and even if it hasn’t cost us much this year, it needs correcting. Our subs shouldn’t work in the favour of the opposition.

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I don't really understand how you think either.
You're identifying something you see as a problem, how is whether that problem is costing us irrelevant?
If it's not costing us then maybe it's not really a problem?
Late goals which see a team drop points are going to happen. They happen to every team in every season. The question is how often. Is it something which is happening to us too often? If so can we correct that?

We did have a problem with conceeding late too often in games, often being too keen to go forward in tight games and getting caught. Maybe this tactic of going defensive at the end of games is a reaction to that. And actually since we started doing that we have very rarely dropped points late in games. So is it really a big problem? Wenger has been repeatedly criticised for doing it but very rarely has it seen us drop points.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't really understand how you think either.
You're identifying something you see as a problem, how is whether that problem is costing us irrelevant?
If it's not costing us then maybe it's not really a problem?
Late goals which see a team drop points are going to happen. They happen to every team in every season. The question is how often. Is it something which is happening to us too often? If so can we correct that?

We did have a problem with conceeding late too often in games, often being too keen to go forward in tight games and getting caught. Maybe this tactic of going defensive at the end of games is a reaction to that. And actually since we started doing that we have very rarely dropped points late in games. So is it really a big problem? Wenger has been repeatedly criticised for doing it but very rarely has it seen us drop points.

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:goodpost:

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Originally Posted by Gooner23

Its frustrating that we keep referencing how poor the other teams are this season to justify when we drop points. The title is there for the taking this season, and we're blowing the chance to build up a good lead because if its neck and neck with a few games to go I don't have much faith. 3 points needed at Stoke.

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This is the most annoying thing but I'm sure City will also be thinking if they weren't so careless they could comfortably be top as well.

It's scant consolation, sooner or later someone will go on a run. Let's just hope it's us.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't really understand how you think either.
You're identifying something you see as a problem, how is whether that problem is costing us irrelevant?
If it's not costing us then maybe it's not really a problem?
Late goals which see a team drop points are going to happen. They happen to every team in every season. The question is how often. Is it something which is happening to us too often? If so can we correct that?

We did have a problem with conceeding late too often in games, often being too keen to go forward in tight games and getting caught. Maybe this tactic of going defensive at the end of games is a reaction to that. And actually since we started doing that we have very rarely dropped points late in games. So is it really a big problem? Wenger has been repeatedly criticised for doing it but very rarely has it seen us drop points.

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Silly logic because the season isn't over. You often mention the frailties of our rivals and how odd this season has been so far so maybe we just haven't been punished as much or found ourselves in a position where we were under pressure like that late in the game.

We may never see this sort of scenario again in the league but say we were to go far in the Champions League? Champs League final maybe (let me dream)? Same scenario occurs and we repeat the same mistake and it costs us the cup? Is it still not a problem? Also, you need to stop talking in isolation of this season. It's something we've seen in past seasons and I'd have hoped we'd have learned by now.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

‘Has it cost us this season?’ :doh: I really don’t get the way you think sometimes. That’s like a bad driver that constantly forgets to check his blind spot trying to defend not having an accident this year despite still having that same bad habit. The season isn’t over and even if it hasn’t cost us much this year, it needs correcting. Our subs shouldn’t work in the favour of the opposition.

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Exactly. I was going to use the analogy of the drunk driver who boasts about not killing anyone. Just keep doing it, see what happens. Or you could drive sober, that option is ALWAYS available. From the kick off Wenger had it all wrong, then he just kept compounding his errors. I said it before, he's lost any ounce of courage he used to have. Apparently he trusts the players, but increasingly it doesn't look like that at all. Either they opted to hand the impetus to Liverpool last night (in which case Wenger should have been doing that manager thing he is paid to do) or, far more likely, this is another wild tactical swing devoid of all subtlety and nuance - like his squad rotation (team decimation) policies. Either we're all out attack leaving ourselves desperately exposed or we're camping in our own box, there's no middle ground with this guy. Certainly no middle ground last night, Flamini and Ramsey were desperate. How Wenger could have watched that without making adjustments is a scandal. Lucky Campbell was willing to run himself into the ground to cover from box to box. Our injury crisis pays off again, twice as effective as the manager's youth policy.

Weird match. Up against a more capable opponent we'd have been annihilated playing like that. As it was, this is a leaky Liverpool who looked half decent because we rolled out the carpet for them most of the game. So negative, so lethargic, so careless. I thought we were supposed to be a passing and possession team? Not much of that in evidence over recent weeks. We have some great players and they are just about doing enough to prevent the drunk at the wheel causing a major crash.

The season isn't over but there have been enough games that we're top on merit and Villa are bottom on...'merit', there have been enough games to start drawing some sesible conclusions about how things are going. If what you're saying is as big a problem as you seem to think then it would surely have cost us more than it has so far.

What is silly logic is citing something as a problem despite the fact that we've done this time after time and pretty much always hung on to the result and then the one time we do concede a late goal go "Aha! See? Told you!"
Late goals are going to happen. The issue is are they happening too often and this season I'd say no. We've got pretty good at hanging on in tight games. I don't like us going defensive but we seem to be good at it and it's better than previous seasons when we were bombing forward late in tight games and getting caught too often.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I don't really understand how you think either.
You're identifying something you see as a problem, how is whether that problem is costing us irrelevant?
If it's not costing us then maybe it's not really a problem?
Late goals which see a team drop points are going to happen. They happen to every team in every season. The question is how often. Is it something which is happening to us too often? If so can we correct that?

We did have a problem with conceeding late too often in games, often being too keen to go forward in tight games and getting caught. Maybe this tactic of going defensive at the end of games is a reaction to that. And actually since we started doing that we have very rarely dropped points late in games. So is it really a big problem? Wenger has been repeatedly criticised for doing it but very rarely has it seen us drop points.

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Teams are regularly all over us in the last few minute of matches, we haven't conceded many times more through luck than judgment, we seem to encourage teams to come at us rather than playing for 90 minutes.

It's a weakness we have no question, the fact we get away with it doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Teams are regularly all over us in the last few minute of matches, we haven't conceded many times more through luck than judgment, we seem to encourage teams to come at us rather than playing for 90 minutes.

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After this many games maybe it isn't luck?

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Originally Posted by Letters

After this many games maybe it isn't luck?

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So what you might as well be saying is Wenger isn't good enough to organise a team full of excellent players and provide them with the tactics to grab and control a match? LIKE HE USED TO BE ABLE TO DO! Instead we have this shit. Hang on and pray mid table teams don't hurt us?

Yeah, I think he's well past it too.

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Originally Posted by Letters

The season isn't over but there have been enough games that we're top on merit and Villa are bottom on...'merit', there have been enough games to start drawing some sesible conclusions about how things are going. If what you're saying is as big a problem as you seem to think then it would surely have cost us more than it has so far.

What is silly logic is citing something as a problem despite the fact that we've done this time after time and pretty much always hung on to the result and then the one time we do concede a late goal go "Aha! See? Told you!"
Late goals are going to happen. The issue is are they happening too often and this season I'd say no. We've got pretty good at hanging on in tight games. I don't like us going defensive but we seem to be good at it and it's better than previous seasons when we were bombing forward late in tight games and getting caught too often.

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There have been enough games over the years to say Wenger can make bad tactical subs and this was one of them. Your staunch defence is ridiculous because the season isn't over. So even though it hasn't costs us that much so far, we don't know how this season will pan out and the question is will he learn from this experience? I don't know but I would have thought after the experiences we've had in the past, like that infamous Tottenham game, we'd stop taking off our attacking threats all at once. Especially when we've conceded goals in a game where our defence looks shaky and 1 goal changes the tie.

Wenger has made bad tactical substitutions but I disagree that last night was a case of this,

With Walcott he'd had a bad game and it seemed reasonable to replace him with a player who could get back and defend as well as run with the ball out of defence in Gibbs, Campbell had for me an excellent game last night but looked totally dead and it was right to replace him with the Ox.
And as for the Ozil sub, after half hour of being pinned back it's hard to change the momentum in a game and it was better to bring on a player who could sit back and help us sit on what we had (from 54 minutes to the time he came off there was nothing i would call a glaring chance to kill off the game).
We didn't win and I can accept that's disappointing, but I don't think we deserved to win the game or were ever in a position to kill it off.
Last season was different I think we had a man advantage and should have looked to assert ourselves more to see out the win or get a killer third goal, the attacking players we had were just not capable of building up the head of steam to do that last night.

The only sub that didn't really work was The Ox as he was poor yet again giving the ball away and fucking up a few counters that perhaps could have allowed us to go 4 - 2 up and kill the game. The last goal was one of those that just happens, kind of lucky that Joe Allen was in the right place at the right time. Twat probably won't score again all season.

The bigger concern for me was the first half where Liverpool were all over us and looked like they could score at any minute. It's been pointed out how porous they Flamini/Ramsey midfield is and boy was that exploited last night. They were just steamrollered right through it and Flamini especially couldn't cope with it; we would have won that game with Coquelin and Santi in the middle and it was telling how Wenger chose to mention that Elneny would be available for Stoke in the post match conference. Mind you, offensively Liverpool played out of their skins. Pressing and harrying us at every opportunity and pinning us back deep - it's exactly how they played when they thrashed City 4 - 1 and if they do that against our rivals then it won't be all bad.

The ref (Mike Jones) was terrible. He's not a blatently corrupt one like Dean or Taylor but he's one that's weak and afraid to make big decisions against a racous home crowd. There were so many times in the first half during Liverpool's aggressive pressing where they simply just bundled us over or fouled us to get the ball which weren't called, and god knows how Clyne or Can didn't get sent off.

I mean a draw away at Anfield on the face of it isn't a bad result, it's just the manner of it makes it painful and dissapointing. Oh well, I'm slightly less gutted then I was yesterday and nothing would cheer me up than a win at the Brittainia. Come on you cunts, don't throw this chance away!!

On to some positives:

- Campbell was godlike yesterday. Worked his ass off and had two assists (should have had three). MOTM. Honestly think it has to be him and Alexis to start wide once the latter returns.

- Our fullbacks were strong. Monreal especially had Ibe in his pocket for most of the game.

- We showed great resolve to get back into the game

- Mignolet :haha:

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Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico

The ref (Mike Jones) was terrible. He's not a blatently corrupt one like Dean or Taylor but he's one that's weak and afraid to make big decisions against a racous home crowd. There were so many times in the first half during Liverpool's aggressive pressing where they simply just bundled us over or fouled us to get the ball which weren't called, and god knows how Clyne or Can didn't get sent off.

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To add to this, it seemed like every time Giroud won an aerial challenge (and he dominated these) a foul was given against him.

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Originally Posted by Douglas Reynholm

To add to this, it seemed like every time Giroud won an aerial challenge (and he dominated these) a foul was given against him.

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Yep. Not to mention that Giroud was getting kicked lumps out of by Sakho in the process which meant they should have been fouls for us.


Sigh, why are there so few decent PL refs?

Ramsey has killed Alan Rickman now...

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

Ramsey has killed Alan Rickman now...

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Wasn't David Bowie at the weekend enough for him? :doh:

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Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico

Wasn't David Bowie at the weekend enough for him? :doh:

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What happens if he gets a hattrick? Are we talking genocide?

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

What happens if he gets a hattrick? Are we talking genocide?

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Governments will fall, for sure