Are the glory days over for good?

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ollie the optimist

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

---

Depends what trophy we were to win i guess. and it depends who your going to LOL AT

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fist of Lehmann

I would love to believe that all our ills could be solved with shouting.

But it's hard to imagine him going off at Wenger. Not so long ago, the perception was that Wenger surrounded himself with yes men and Rice was just the guy who put out cones.

Rice's stint on the sidelines may have opened some eyes, but it's a fair stretch from there to shouting at what is effectively his boss.


.

---

Perhaps he has just had enough? He was very vocal until the last couple of years when he seems to have gotten beaten down by it all, never really believed he is a yes man either his reputation in the game is outstanding.

While our problems wont be solved by shouting, of course, perhaps a little bollocking might go a long way. We know Wenger inst a shouter so perhaps a short sharp slap is what they need.

Either that or its all gone to far and Wenger has indeed "lost" the players, as it were

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ollie the optimist

i would lol lots of if we won a trophy this year, well after waking up from the months coma produced by shock

---

We should of won the CC last year, IMO it would have made a massive difference to the club and the players. A winners medal to beat that monkey off their backs with would have helped mentally but the whole thing was wrong, the approach, the build up, the pre-match and certainly the 90 minutes, we genuinely looked like we couldn't be bothered, and if you cant be bothered in a cup final at Wembley, yes even the CC, you aren't fit to wear the shirt.

Quote:

---

Doesn't ring true to me, but the only real test of this premise will be how hard they will try to hold onto him in the face of declining results (and consequent revenue). If the board really doesn't believe in sustainability, let's see them a) pay a premium to remove Wenger, b) expend money to recruit and c) make substantial (unsustainable) funds to back their new man.

I see them as being highly resistant to this, Gazidis' flat refusal to consider sacking, suggests this.

---

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

---

Well said :clap:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Agreed, I see nothing changing whether Wenger stays or goes, maybe bar the usual, temporary bump gained when a new manager arrives. The facts of the matter are simple and yet almost completely ignored. The board has consistently failed to invest in the team. In fact it's worse than that, they have run down the team in a series of disastrous transfer windows. Whoever was calling the shots (let's face it, like any other company in the world it is the board that has the final say), the buck stops at the top. But the ultimate and damning indicator of who is most to blame for the demise of the team is spelled out clearly in the huge amounts of money the board members have personally taken at the very same time the team was descending into chaos. So many overlook this glaring point even though it is staring them in the face. This club is now in the hands of corporate rapists. They talk of sustainability and financial prudence, yet we cannot sustain even our 4th position in the league. Then again, they haven't been interested in sustaining the team for a long time now, as successive transfer windows have shown. But they managed to not only sustain but enhance their share value for the whole period up until they cashed in. This is why I'm sure they would say they have presided over great success. From their point of view it's hard to argue. Virtually zero money in and hundreds of millions taken out with a clean escape beckoning in time to avoid the ship sinking. They've done very well for themselves. I hope they die.

---

AW would have never stayed with the team and renewed his contract in 08 or 09 (?) if he had so much interference from the board in signing players. And I have said this many times... with the personnel he has at his disposal, we should be doing much better than 15th place and conceding 8 goals at OT. Every semi-decent manager wouldve sorted the defense out in 5 seasons! Board could be wrong... I say could because I dont know what they say to Wenger. I will judge the team based on the manager, his tactics and the personnel available... We have a more than strong squad to be easily in the 4th/5th position but where are we? What is our record since the loss to Birmingham in the CC? Its all down to AW tbh.. board members could be cunts but the amount of power that AW wields at Arsenal, I cannot point to anyone other than him for us being in the shit hole!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FakeYank

AW would have never stayed with the team and renewed his contract in 08 or 09 (?) if he had so much interference from the board in signing players. And I have said this many times... with the personnel he has at his disposal, we should be doing much better than 15th place and conceding 8 goals at OT. Every semi-decent manager wouldve sorted the defense out in 5 seasons! Board could be wrong... I say could because I dont know what they say to Wenger. I will judge the team based on the manager, his tactics and the personnel available... We have a more than strong squad to be easily in the 4th/5th position but where are we? What is our record since the loss to Birmingham in the CC? Its all down to AW tbh.. board members could be cunts but the amount of power that AW wields at Arsenal, I cannot point to anyone other than him for us being in the shit hole!

---

Did not know the season had finish. Its silly to put the blame on 1 person when the problem is bigger then that.

When Wenger was at Monaco it was a similar parttern. He wouldn't spend the money.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner

Did not know the season had finish. Its silly to put the blame on 1 person when the problem is bigger then that.

---

You take one part of the post and make a point. How about you answer why we have such a fantastic record since the loss to Birmingham. I think that stretches to something like 19 games and 19 points (?)- relegation form. And add the failures of the last 5 seasons and you know that the problem lies with AW, not the board. None of you 'board haters' EVER answer why our defense is bad, why players are out of position, why our formation sucks, why we didnt sign a player like Parker, Cahill etc.. All you 'BH' (Board haters) will say that the board stopped Arsene from spending. Ok fine, but none of the questions above needs major spending or no spending at all!

Yes, go ahead and find something else to say against the board.. lets see how ticket prices are the reason the players cant defend! :lol:

I said on a previous thread that I see both sides and the blame is more collective rather than individual.
Without a shadow of a doubt the blame for our pitch performances lie with Wenger but the fact he has been allowed to continue in the same vein is nothing but the highest case of negligence!
Due to Wengers almost immediate success the board has become blind, naive, you name it to what is going on.
As Wengers success, influence grew the boards interest in what was going on on the pitch diminished. So much so that when things started to go south they didnt know what to do then or thought they have no choice to follow the only guy who has brought success to the club mainly because he was saying that all they need to do is trust him a la the phrase 'Wenger knows'.

So what we have is a manager leading a board and a board being lead, a manager that thinks he knows more about football, success and the way to combine both than anyone in the club and a board who are still willing to listen.
We have a manager that fails to change his plan, that fails to see that other teams have him sussed, players like Carrol get license to run amok and CBs are told to pile forward every set piece, and not alwsys to score but to cause panic in our fragile defence because you can be sure we will shoot ourselves in the foot at some point. Midfields become congested and balls are played over our ridiculously high line of defence.

Do we change to combat that? Hell no! . . . .ahhhh wait a mo, yes we do! We play Theo wide instead of Arshavin :doh:
What we dont have is a manager willing to recognise failure or a board strong enough to tell him he is failing because do not tell me for all their lack of knowledge of the beautiful game that they do not see what id happening;

1) 6 years no trophy
2) constant collapses of league campaigns
3) little progress on orevious bests ie constant 4th finishes, knock out stages of of CL
4) average loss of 1 star player a season (that will change though but only because we wont have any star players)
5) and more

All of the above really supports FakeYank but for the BHs I support them vy adding we dont have a board that has the balls to slam their hand on the table and say 'enough' - they cant insist that we buy this guy or that because Wenger will just retort with his knowledge of the game but they would be wise to remind him and maybe themselves that ultimately the success of the club is what goes on on the pitch, sure they might be making a killong personally at the moment but that wont last forever especially with Cesc gone, there are no more cash cows RvP, Oxo maybe but when people start forgetting who we are as they are to a certain degree in Japan, no games for Miya, no Cesc = little interest, the board are going to have to look out.

I dont want to say sack Wenger but the board have got to state the obvious to him and that he is not getting it done, they need to be strong, no sports team allows for some much failure especially on the back of some much promise.

As I said before the two parties seem to be working to an agenda, which benefits no-one but themselves, but there is a risk, Wenger will completley destroy an increasingly tarnished legacy and the board will end up with nothing.
I honestly feel that before this happens Wenger needs to walk and take the majority of the boarf with him. . . . .

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FakeYank

None of you 'board haters' EVER answer why our defense is bad, why players are out of position, why our formation sucks, why we didnt sign a player like Parker, Cahill etc.. All you 'BH' (Board haters) will say that the board stopped Arsene from spending. Ok fine, but none of the questions above needs major spending or no spending at all!

---

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

---

From that post, I think it is plain to all that you're just an 'AH' - an Arsenal Hater.

I'm a GFH, actually.





Gary's Face.

:p

LOL

Punch me in the face and I bleed Arsenal red.

Hater.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

And none of you WH's concede the point that staying top 4 in the PL every year despite billionaires spending silly money, other clubs spending big too and our relative lack of investment is a pretty impressive achievement.
Some of the problems you cite above are, of course, down to Wenger. But some of you act like any idiot could keep a team in the top 4 of the PL year after year despite many clubs spending big and going through manager after manager and failing to achieve that. City and Chelsea had to spend obscene amounts of money to achieve it.

IMO it's idiotic to blame either the board or Wenger alone. If Wenger is being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should be insisting he does. If the board are refusing to let him spend more then Wenger's being put in an impossible situation. IMO there's blame on both sides.

---

Again, the point is that NONE of my questions were answered. Yes, he kept us in the top 4 but with very minor tweaks, we couldve easily won a major trophy. And those minor tweaks are in the questions I asked above. The board cannot and I repeat cannot.. again, I repeat CANNOT organize the defense or make them defend better or play play Bendtner, Eduardo, Vela, Diaby down the middle.. Board cannot make AW buy a defensive coach!

Also very few Arsenal fans have actually asked for billions of dollars to be spent on players. All we are asking is to spend the money we generate from our income, fuck that, that seems hard, at least spend the money you make off of selling players!! Now, this is the part where the BH's will come in and say "the board tied AW's hands and took the money by themselves and wiped their arse with it".. well no, in fact FUCK NO, that is very far away from the truth. How do I know? AW stated himself that he'd not stay a day longer if there was interference from board or owner. So if PHW were to come and say to AW "Arsene, we cant spend 6 million on Parker coz I need to buy a new jet", I cant see Arsene just looking at that old cow and going "Zure, would you like to fuck me as well?"

Lets take the point of view of the BH's and say Arsene is a nice guy and he wont walk out of his contract... well, he didnt need to sign one a couple of years ago if the board was destroying his legacy season after season. Why did he sign a new contract? Well, coz he is a stubborn cunt who wanted to prove to the world that his bunch of toddlers can win the league and that he will be hailed as the new messiah of football.. well, we can all see where that is going...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FakeYank

Again, the point is that NONE of my questions were answered.

---

I said those things were mostly Wenger's fault :shrug:

Quote:

---

Yes, he kept us in the top 4 but with very minor tweaks, we couldve easily won a major trophy.

---

I know. Again, Wenger's fault. But you're again dismissing how hard it is to keep a club in the top 4, especially in the era of billionaire owners.

Wenger's made mistakes, some of which he should have been sacked for. But to dismiss the last 5 years as a COMPLETE failure and say that any idiot could have kept us top 4 is idiotic. And, again, if you think it's just Wenger being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should have been harder with him and insisted he invest more. They're his boss, you can't completely absolve them from responsibility.

Personally i would like to see more blame laid on the players. They seem to be the ones who escape all but the match day criticism here for some reason. I know that the AH's will just lay it all on the big man but come on, he set the team out and the tactics (sort of) but he isn't on the pitch missing tackles and jumping under the ball and and so on. Yes you can say "well he is in charge of training" but training isn't the same as match time.

You can prepare individuals as much as you like but if they just don't bother when they are on the pitch (That's Wenger's fault!)what can you do? Drop them you say, well we cant as we have to many injuries (That's Wenger's fault!) We also, despite the opinions of some on here, replace world class players with kids who have never played (That's Wenger's fault!)

If you watch his behaviour on the sidelines he is as pissed off as us, these players who came in at the end of the window (That's he board's fault!) haven't had time to settle in yet so they will make mistakes, which leads all the internet experts to say they are shit and a waste of money, money which we could have spent on really good players like Hazard and M'Vila and Pele and Cliff Bastin, which of course misses the point completely (Which i am sure is the Board or Wenger's fault as well)

Strange things are going on at the club at the moment and none of us is party to why (That's probably my fault) None of us know what the direction and strategy of the club are (That's' probably god's fault) and none of us know what Wenger is doing with the first team (That's Pat Rice's fault) but many are taking information and making wild theories from it, 1+1 = Potato, combine that with a lot of grudge bearing and grumpiness and its all so cloudy that we are clueless.

So my Theory is this, Not getting the players up for it and tactics - Wenger's fault
The players we have, the players we don't have, the money issues, the commercial and PR bollocks - The boards fault
The nonsense, half arsed, piss poor performances since the Newcastle comedy - The players fault
Everything else I blame on Fakeyank

I'd go along with that.
The players don't get enough of the blame IMO. They're the ones out there.
The AH's will say that Wenger's the boss so the buck stops with him.
But the board are Wenger's boss so surely the same logic applies.
It's far too simplistic to say it's all Wenger's fault.

The buck stops with the manager at every football club in the world.

- Whose work is it to motivate the players?
- Who should make sure we have experienced players in the squad?
- Who gets paid multi-million dollars to do the above?

Answer? Arsene Wenger. Like I mentioned in one of my previous posts, I do not absolve the board of any wrong doing... its just that I (or many of the BH's) do not know what they have done. I know that for me AFC is a football club and I will look to the manager when I have to point a finger and that to me is Arsene Wenger and he needs to go. If sacking him does not solve the problem, then we can go deeper into 'conspiracy theories'.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by FakeYank

- Whose work is it to motivate the players?

---

- Wenger and the Players

Quote:

---

- Who should make sure we have experienced players in the squad?

---

- Wenger and the Board

Quote:

---

- Who gets paid multi-million dollars to do the above?

---

- The players, Wenger and the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

I said those things were mostly Wenger's fault :shrug:



I know. Again, Wenger's fault. But you're again dismissing how hard it is to keep a club in the top 4, especially in the era of billionaire owners.

Wenger's made mistakes, some of which he should have been sacked for. But to dismiss the last 5 years as a COMPLETE failure and say that any idiot could have kept us top 4 is idiotic. And, again, if you think it's just Wenger being stubborn and refusing to spend money then the board should have been harder with him and insisted he invest more. They're his boss, you can't completely absolve them from responsibility.

---

I just don’t agree with this top 4 accolade you keep repeating. We were a Championship winning club with great players like Henry, Pires, Vieria, Sol, Bergkamp, Cole…etc. Going a few seasons without spending on major players wouldn’t mean we automatically drop out of the top four. It has been a slow and steady decline. If Man U or Chelsea decided to stop spending major money, they wouldn’t automatically drop out of the top four. You need lower to teams to actually overtake them and unless teams like Villa, Spurs, Everton get Man City type investors, that won’t happen.

AH?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ach

AH?

---

Arsene Haters

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I just don’t agree with this top 4 accolade you keep repeating. We were a Championship winning club with great players like Henry, Pires, Vieria, Sol, Bergkamp, Cole…etc. Going a few seasons without spending on major players wouldn’t mean we automatically drop out of the top four. It has been a slow and steady decline

---

No, it hasn't. It was actually a very rapid decline from the invincibles of 2004 to 2006 when we just barely scraped top 4 on the last day. Then we improved again to the point where at least once we were genuine title contenders again. Since then we've declined again.

I do take the point that from where we were even by standing still we could have stayed top 4 for a bit but the turnover of players has been such that added to the pressure of other teams spending big to displace us I think Wenger has done well to keep us in the top 4 till now. He's done badly in other areas but it's not an achievement which should be dismissed IMO.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

No, it hasn't. It was actually a very rapid decline from the invincibles of 2004 to 2006 when we just barely scraped top 4 on the last day. Then we improved again to the point where at least once we were genuine title contenders again. Since then we've declined again.

I do take the point that from where we were even by standing still we could have stayed top 4 for a bit but the turnover of players has been such that added to the pressure of other teams spending big to displace us I think Wenger has done well to keep us in the top 4 till now. He's done badly in other areas but it's not an achievement which should be dismissed IMO.

---

That’s a good point and that doesn’t reflect well on Wenger. Such a rapid decline when we had players like Cole, Sol, Lehman, Toure, Reyes, Pires, Cesc, Henry shouldn’t happen. Chelsea have swapped managers many times and had dressing room fallouts but have still managed to keep their top four status. Man U lost Tevez and Ronaldo and had injury problems with their defenders, but didn’t come close to dropping out of the top four.

That’s not right. We can talk about the era of Billionaire owners but at that point it was only Chelsea that had crazy money to spend. Our team was still better than the majority and we had more internationals in our squad than most. Keeping us in the top four with that squad is nothing to clap about.

FY, I don't know what kind of organisation you work for, buy the buck stops with the Board. Everywhere. If they have an incompetent Manager and they do nothing about it, the blame lies with them.

The buck stops where ultimate accountability lies. There isn't a Club or organisation in the world where ultimate accountability lies at the position Wenger occupies in the Club hierarchy.

How you repeatedly fail to understand this most elementary concept is baffling.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GB.

How you repeatedly fail to understand this most elementary concept is baffling.

---

You know he is American right?

He's talking about results on the pitch and the way the team play. That's Wenger's department.

But, people are quick to blame the Board and always have been. More so before they look at Wenger.

surely if the players are inept and that's Wenger's fault then the fact Wenger is also inept is the boards fault?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Our team was still better than the majority and we had more internationals in our squad than most. Keeping us in the top four with that squad is nothing to clap about.

---

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Japan Shaking All Over

I said on a previous thread that I see both sides and the blame is more collective rather than individual.
Without a shadow of a doubt the blame for our pitch performances lie with Wenger but the fact he has been allowed to continue in the same vein is nothing but the highest case of negligence!
Due to Wengers almost immediate success the board has become blind, naive, you name it to what is going on.
As Wengers success, influence grew the boards interest in what was going on on the pitch diminished. So much so that when things started to go south they didnt know what to do then or thought they have no choice to follow the only guy who has brought success to the club mainly because he was saying that all they need to do is trust him a la the phrase 'Wenger knows'.

So what we have is a manager leading a board and a board being lead, a manager that thinks he knows more about football, success and the way to combine both than anyone in the club and a board who are still willing to listen.
We have a manager that fails to change his plan, that fails to see that other teams have him sussed, players like Carrol get license to run amok and CBs are told to pile forward every set piece, and not alwsys to score but to cause panic in our fragile defence because you can be sure we will shoot ourselves in the foot at some point. Midfields become congested and balls are played over our ridiculously high line of defence.

Do we change to combat that? Hell no! . . . .ahhhh wait a mo, yes we do! We play Theo wide instead of Arshavin :doh:
What we dont have is a manager willing to recognise failure or a board strong enough to tell him he is failing because do not tell me for all their lack of knowledge of the beautiful game that they do not see what id happening;

1) 6 years no trophy
2) constant collapses of league campaigns
3) little progress on orevious bests ie constant 4th finishes, knock out stages of of CL
4) average loss of 1 star player a season (that will change though but only because we wont have any star players)
5) and more

All of the above really supports FakeYank but for the BHs I support them vy adding we dont have a board that has the balls to slam their hand on the table and say 'enough' - they cant insist that we buy this guy or that because Wenger will just retort with his knowledge of the game but they would be wise to remind him and maybe themselves that ultimately the success of the club is what goes on on the pitch, sure they might be making a killong personally at the moment but that wont last forever especially with Cesc gone, there are no more cash cows RvP, Oxo maybe but when people start forgetting who we are as they are to a certain degree in Japan, no games for Miya, no Cesc = little interest, the board are going to have to look out.

I dont want to say sack Wenger but the board have got to state the obvious to him and that he is not getting it done, they need to be strong, no sports team allows for some much failure especially on the back of some much promise.

As I said before the two parties seem to be working to an agenda, which benefits no-one but themselves, but there is a risk, Wenger will completley destroy an increasingly tarnished legacy and the board will end up with nothing.
I honestly feel that before this happens Wenger needs to walk and take the majority of the boarf with him. . . . .

---

A good post lamentably ignored.

Of course its a collective responsibility. But in the same way as I think its a bit facile to blame the players for their lack of performance, I think its ignoring the root cause to blame AW rather than the board.

Of course, there is a failure at player level. Cesc showed what was possible from a player at the top of his game basically being self-motivated and having exceptional talent - and we are seeing (and have seen since his spirit was broken at Wembley) the extent to which he carried our team.

But the level of self-motivation/leadership required is not something that is easy to find - and AW has taken it for granted too much.

To an extent, all footballers have motivation - it is needed simply to have made it to a team playing in the top league. But that x-factor that drives the team to succeed is a rare animal. We tend to see the 'fighting spirit' as quite an English trait - and maybe AW's selection of so many foreigners who don't have the tribal background of home growns is a factor in our lack of it. There is no escaping the fact that AW since 2004 has gone for technique over character - and that is down to his choice of player. My own theory is that the manager requires absolute subservience to his way of playing football - and that is why he eschews the likes of Scott Parker; Chris Samba etc even when they are within his reach. But he has sacrificed passion, heart and fight in doing so.

Secondly, if these qualities are missing from his team, it is for the manager to instill these in his players - and from where I am sitting, AW has utterly failed to do this. How? - By allowing players to underperform again and again yet keep their places. By his constant and increasingly bizzare excuses for failure. By his tolerance of the kind of stupidity we have seen from Diaby; Gervinho and (until recently) Eboue. By a managerial approach that sees him say nothing at half time until the last 5 minutes because he doesn't think there is enough to say for 15. By his lack of tochline instruction during games...the list goes on.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the managerial failures that other people have mentioned - players out of position; the lamentable failure to admit his mistakes and get in a proper defensive coach; refusal to take into account the other team's set ups and amend his own accordingly; lack of training for set pieces etc.

But in the same way as responsibility for players' performances lies with the manager, responsibility for the manager rests with the owners and the board. It is they who have allowed Wenger to attain this God like status - it would appear for financial rather than footballing reasons. It is they who have self-evidently run scared of questioning the manager's methods; it is they who have refused to invest in the playing side of the team - when over the past few years modest investment could have turned top four into champions; it is they who have failed to secuure key contract renewals; it is they who by their neglect and negligence in giving the manager carte blanche over every aspect of the footballing side, and failing to question the manager's misguided faith in his best players' loyalty have ultimately overseen the running down of our team to a stage where we may well have dropped semi permanently out of the CL places and be seeing a real decline of the business of the club. A business that they are supposed to be such responsible custodians of.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Flavs

surely if the players are inept and that's Wenger's fault then the fact Wenger is also inept is the boards fault?

---

Yes, that’s true, but most fans have been really slow to catch on to the fact that Wenger is inept. It’s only been this season where there seems to be a general view on here that he isn’t up to task.

But it’s a different story for the Board. They have always been the scapegoats and I find that people are quick to blame them before they look at the manager. Over the years and especially over the past few months, people have started to see the type of influence and relationship Wenger has with them. But rather than look at the flaws of Wenger, people would rather just skip ahead and point the finger at the Board for allowing him to stay on for so long. But no doubt, if they had fired him two or three seasons ago, a lot of people would have given them stick for that and said they had made the wrong decision.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Of course its a collective responsibility. But in the same way as I think its a bit facile to blame the players for their lack of performance, I think its ignoring the root cause to blame AW rather than the board.

Of course, there is a failure at player level. Cesc showed what was possible from a player at the top of his game basically being self-motivated and having exceptional talent - and we are seeing (and have seen since his spirit was broken at Wembley) the extent to which he carried our team.

But the level of self-motivation/leadership required is not something that is easy to find - and AW has taken it for granted too much.

To an extent, all footballers have motivation - it is needed simply to have made it to a team playing in the top league. But that x-factor that drives the team to succeed is a rare animal. We tend to see the 'fighting spirit' as quite an English trait - and maybe AW's selection of so many foreigners who don't have the tribal background of home growns is a factor in our lack of it. There is no escaping the fact that AW since 2004 has gone for technique over character - and that is down to his choice of player. My own theory is that the manager requires absolute subservience to his way of playing football - and that is why he eschews the likes of Scott Parker; Chris Samba etc even when they are within his reach. But he has sacrificed passion, heart and fight in doing so.

Secondly, if these qualities are missing from his team, it is for the manager to instill these in his players - and from where I am sitting, AW has utterly failed to do this. How? - By allowing players to underperform again and again yet keep their places. By his constant and increasingly bizzare excuses for failure. By his tolerance of the kind of stupidity we have seen from Diaby; Gervinho and (until recently) Eboue. By a managerial approach that sees him say nothing at half time until the last 5 minutes because he doesn't think there is enough to say for 15. By his lack of tochline instruction during games...the list goes on.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the managerial failures that other people have mentioned - players out of position; the lamentable failure to admit his mistakes and get in a proper defensive coach; refusal to take into account the other team's set ups and amend his own accordingly; lack of training for set pieces etc.

But in the same way as responsibility for players' performances lies with the manager, responsibility for the manager rests with the owners and the board. It is they who have allowed Wenger to attain this God like status - it would appear for financial rather than footballing reasons. It is they who have self-evidently run scared of questioning the manager's methods; it is they who have refused to invest in the playing side of the team - when over the past few years modest investment could have turned top four into champions; it is they who have failed to secuure key contract renewals; it is they who by their neglect and negligence in giving the manager carte blanche over every aspect of the footballing side, and failing to question the manager's misguided faith in his best players' loyalty have ultimately overseen the running down of our team to a stage where we may well have dropped semi permanently out of the CL places and be seeing a real decline of the business of the club. A business that they are supposed to be such responsible custodians of.

---

you fucking rock dude

The board wont sack Wenger as long as we are making money simple as that, the reason being is that they are money men not football men. And the more that get replaced by these Kroenke flunkees the worse it will get.

Balance sheet>team sheet

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

---

I agree to an extent - but by the same token, which teams outside the top four matched the quality of our players last season? If you argue that in some seasons since 2005 the manager attained CL football by over-performing with the squad available to him, you could argue also that last season and in 2008/9 the manager had a side well capable of winning the league, but failed.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters (TPFKA WWTL@WHL)

The squad which finished top 4 last year didn't contain any of the invincibles, did it? It was a new squad Wenger built from scratch on a relative shoestring and was only bettered by two sides who can throw money around like it's going out of fashion and by Utd who have also spent big although with their own money. It's ridiculous to dismiss that achievement.
But if he gets credit for that then he should also get flak for the fact that we didn't win the Carling Cup and didn't push harder for the league when we were in a pretty decent position.

It's ridiculous to give him NO credit, but it's equally ridiculous to say he's completely incompetent and any idiot could have kept us top 4 over the last few years.

EDIT: I messed up the end of that, what I meant to say was that it has to be recognised that he's made errors which he should probably have been sacked for, but it's ridiculous to give him no credit at all.

---

How many squads can really throw money around?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

How many squads can really throw money around?

---

Man Utd
Chelsea
Manchester City
Liverpool
Spurs

And that's just in the EPL

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

How many squads can really throw money around?

---

3. And we are now falling behind clubs that are essentially as limited or more limited than we are finance wise.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

How many squads can really throw money around?

---

The three who finished above us can.
Liverpool and Spurs have thrown quite a bit around too to try and displace us in the top 4 and failed.
This season top 4 is looking a long way away (although a few good wins and it all gets close again, it's only October) but till now Wenger's done well to keep us top 4 and badly not to have won a trophy or 3 given how close we've got on a few occasions. His achievement of keeping us top 4 should not be overlooked but his failure to land trophies should not be dismissed either.
As always on here, people fail to see a middle ground between "Wenger is the greatest genius in human history" and "Wenger is a bumbling incompetent who couldn't manage his way out of a paper bag".