Arteta will only go when he's offered a 'better' job - I'm guessing it wouldn't immediately be Man City but something like PSG or Barcam, he might come back to Man City eventually thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
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Arteta will only go when he's offered a 'better' job - I'm guessing it wouldn't immediately be Man City but something like PSG or Barcam, he might come back to Man City eventually thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Well I really do hope your last paragraph turns out right, at least for all our sakes.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Everytime I think of Arteta as some sort of cult hero, I remember what Zim use to say on here, about how he had an "average" playing career here and can't help but giggle a bit.... but another funny thing is he actually got a lot of injuries while he played for us, which a lot of people (including him apparently) seem to forget.
Anyway, has anyone noticed, apparently Cesc is getting rave reviews at Como presently... he seems to be having a Bournemouth fairytale there and the Italian press is really loving his brand of football....well that might not be saying much with most of their teams crashing out of Europe this season :lol:
Well you might be on to something as he does have a history with both of those clubs....but I still feel he's odds on to succeed Pep, especially if Pep has a say in it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I saw an Athletic video about how Fabregas sets his teams up to play, curiously for someone who was a progressive forward playing midfielder, there is caution and defensiveness. Which means they don’t score many goals but they are tough to beat. That’s fine in Italy, it’s what they are used to. Of course I’ve never seen even clips of Como play, but should things go south with Arteta I wouldn’t be massively surprised if we are not at least linked with Fabregas as a potential replacementQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
So just looking at the Table in Italy now
Como are 13th in the table 7 wins, 7 draws and 12 defeats
32 goals scored, 41 conceded
I wouldn’t say exactly watertight defensively, but I suppose for a team like that in 26 games it’s not terrible either
They beat Napoli on Sunday to stop them going back top of the table which is quite an impressive achievement
To clarify all this is from a two minute Google search, I didn’t even know Fabregas was in management until a week or so ago :lol:
I'm not sure, out of loyalty, he would go straight to Citeh from Arsenal - Pep has talked about how Arteta was happy when City beat any other team, but not ArsenalQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
But I don't think that woudl stop him from going there eventually
Or maybe he'll just end up at Coventry City :lol:
It was a written review of the Napoli match I caught online a few days ago... apparently even after taking the lead they out played them all through and threatened to score more. Apparently he's seen there as pretty ambitious and his team play ambitiously too...thats why I used the Bournemouth comparison.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Anyway, wouldn't want him to succeed Arteta straight away, thats if he goes soon. I mean, that would mean we would have had 3 Spanish managers on the go and that would be too much for me (unless it was Alonso though, which will never happen).
I'll shout it till I'm blue in the face, we need an experienced hand who can get the most from these young lads ASAP. To me, that's Ancelotti.
I also think it would be better for the club as a whole to stop being fixated about the long term and learn to exist in the here and now with a manager who'd probably only do one contract.
https://youtu.be/tnDcPrDUSB8?si=fB9DpFcn_yeQkito
Watching the highlights of the game made me curious, though ultimately more curious about Napoli than Como
A title challenging team conceding a comical own goal like that under no pressure, Philip Billing and Scott McTominay in the team
It’s fair to say the league that was the Primo European league in the early-mid 1990s is quite some considerable distance behind the premier league
Ancelotti is the type of coach you bring in to a club that already has the players to be a title winning side, and just keeps things ticking over. Plus one season at Chelsea aside, his record in England is pretty meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
Also there’s a difference between experience and eligible for a bus pass :lol:
I don’t think Arteta’s inexperience is the issue for us (not that I’m suggesting that we go for Fabregas, although if we did he would have more club managerial experience under his belt than Arteta did) it’s the hubris. I don’t think experience tends to dull that tendency
That Cesc celebration looked very Arteta like :lol:
Serie A is definitely not what it use to be, I mean McTominay is regarded as a superstar over there :lol:
Anyway, lets not forget that Inter was one of the first teams that beat us this season (we didn't have injury worries then), so they've still got some quality.
But TBH, the overall quality of the league is one of the reasons why I'm not gaga about going after some "stars" like that Juve striker we've been linked to for 3 years who I can't even get his name right because he's not consistent.
Anyway talking of wanting an experienced coach, I don’t necessarily disagree with that. I think we just have different ideas on who that should be
Even though now it would be impossible for him to come here, the guy I always thought was the perfect fit for us was Klopp.
I followed his career going back to 2010, and I saw the way Dortmund played and won two league titles under him. He seemed to be the natural successor to Wenger and I think we dithered and we should have got him in the summer of 2015 before he ended up at Liverpool
I’m certain as certain can be, had we done so we’d have had at least one league title between then and now.
Without Klopp there would be no league title for Liverpool this season, it’s his team and his set up…if you like a bit like how Bob Paisley stepped into the shoes of Bill Shankly.
The reason I said that Arteta would (change that to might) walk is that if the owners/board do not back him with the players he now says he wants, I think he is more ambitious than to want to be stuck with perennial under achievers.
Where I am less confident than I was in thinking that we will progress under him is in looking at his longer term player recruitment over the past few years.
The simple truth is that we have never been a really potent attacking team under him. Our goal tally last season is misleading. A potent attacking team does not simply mean number of goals scored, it means the manner in which we attack. In some ways, its an advantage to be able to share goals out. In others, I can't escape the feeling that even at the best of times our goal threat depends upon all cogs in a very tightly coached set up working perfectly. We struggled for goals and found it difficult to convert chances this season with only one key player missing. We have struggled with low blocks for the past couple of seasons. Our strikers' goal tallys in the EPL last season were not great for a 'top team' (Saka 9th - on 16; Havertz 14th - 13; Trossard 18th - 12). this season they are lamentable. We relied for a lot of goals during the second half of last season and the first half of this one on corner routines. These have now dried up. We failed to score in 5 games last season, drew 5 and lost 5. This season we have reached this number already, and are behind Liverpool (1); Citeh (3) and Brighton, Chelsea and Fulham (4).
The games we should have won (or at least not lost) to win the league last season were West Ham at home and Fulham away. This is where a full strength Arteta team was found particularly wanting - and the deal was sealed at home (again) to Villa.
Our style of play and player personnel make it quite difficult to score goals from open play. I think that Arteta's system and philosophy makes us quite vulnerable to the loss of a forward player and to a low block.
One of the reasons why we are struggling to adapt now is that its not possible for players who have been so heavily coached and drilled to autonomisms to change these. I don't see Arteta now trying to recruit players who break the mould and are game changers.
I think also that Arteta's team has been built to deal with the previous threat posed by Citeh - physicality to match theirs and a chess game to outwit Pep's. He has been successful in this, but in doing so has taken his eye off the most effective way to deal with so-called 'lesser teams' who come to defend, concede possession and break on us. My concern is that he will be unwilling, or unable to adapt again.
So yes I think what you say is true in that we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season.
Additionally I think the particular skillset of the players we have is not necessarily adaptable in any event
Because even playing direct in this day and age is a skill, a long ball which is controlled is a skill and one that comes about by working on it in training. The direct goal that Rodgers scored against Palace looked to me an execution of something that had definitely been worked on in training, it certainly wasn’t spontaneous
And that’s my point I guess, spontenaety whilst it still exists in some form because you wouldn’t get these worldies is becoming less and less a feature of the game. How Arteta wants us to play is drilled into the players in training just as much as another coach employing a different system will drill that approach in training
Yes i agree, i do think Arteta did a good job of repairing a lot of bad feeling and so maybe at the time he made sense, but as a coach he's not up to it and we just need to start winning now, not in 5 or 10 yearsQuote:
Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE
I can only say again that this is demonstrably false and Everton is just one glaring example of how a manager can come in, change tactics, style and play and if he does in the right way the players adapt successfullyQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
It doesn't matter if they're not a top team, the same principle applies - in fact it's even more relevant in a way if the players aren't top level standard but can clearly still adapt
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Everton under throat cancer boy didn’t have a style of play, they just played the same way 11 behind the ball against pretty much everyone. It’s a bit like saying we changed our system when we retreated within our shells when down to ten men.
And actually it makes a big difference if you’re not a top team. For a team that has Championship level players it’s totally possible for a decent coach to get them up to the top half of the bottom end of the table.
A bit like Fabregas with Como
But that ability to make the difference dissipates nearer the top, granted a half wit with the best players can fail to win the biggest honours, but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is
Sorry, but based on your arguments, Leicester would never have won the PL and Forest wouldn't be in the top 3 after two-thirds of the seasonQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
so again you're demonstrably wrong, give this one up it's not worth it
Leicester is the exception that proves the ruleQuote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
It’s like a Gender nutter saying being a hemaphrodite proves there are more than two sexes. It’s called an outlier
From the time the Premier League started, take away that season and tell me that the winner of the league title wasn’t one of the two best teams in terms of player quality.
So you can stick your “you’re demonstrably wrong”
Also don’t come pointing fingers at me about starting arguments with people in future when you’re just as bad yourself
The rule being that HCZ will say anything to try to defy reasonQuote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
:haha:
You said "a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is"
*Isn't" is a term that has no exceptions, but it happened
You also haven't explained Forest or numerous other examples over previous years
Like i say give it up
Save your breath. He's caught Letters Syndrome.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
I haven’t explained Forest? Before money became as prescient as it is now it was easier to assemble a team of the best players. In the late 70s Liverpool and Forest were the two best teams in the league, Forest won the title in 78 and Liverpool in 1979 and 1980
Plus Forest made the first £1 million signing with Trevor Francis so they weren’t shy about flashing the cash
Plus “Isn’t is a term with no exceptions” is weak sauce even for you, I know you think pulling people up on grammar and spelling is the same as making a substantive point but really? :lol:. I’m actually a bit embarrassed for you frankly
But I’ll tell you what, I’ll be a good sport
“but a genius with only the 5th or 6th best squad isn’t going to get the prizes no matter how good he is (with the exception of an outlier season that happens once every thirty years)”
Ok sweet pea?
Money became prescient? That explains it then. It's the money's fault. Never knew money was so devious, didn't even know it was sentient. Serves me right for being a dumbass.
As in predictiveQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Anyway what you doing here, thought you were wanking yourself silly over MAGA winning bigly?
As in a grammar lesson gone horribly wrong, sweet pea.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
I'm here because I have a month off, last weekend then back to the grind.
You’d kill a man to protect your family but you won’t spend any time with them?Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I suppose we'd all have a laugh and a drink if we ever met up.
Apart from Letters. He'd be outside giving us parking tickets.
I do my duty.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
Family is getting on with their own shit. All grow'd up. Impressive people. Far more than me. Which is the whole game.
I’d probably need to in order to raise the money I’d need to pay in case you start charging me rent for living in your head.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
:coffee:
Except that wasn't a joke.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
How does Forest's distant history make any difference to how they're doing now, or what people's expectations were for this season? (clue: it doesn't)Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
My point (as you well know) is that no-one was saying they had the third best team in the league at the start if the season but there they are, under Santo they're immeasurably better than under previous managers
And if 'is not' isn't a definitive statement I don't know what is
Again, give it up, you really don't always have to have the last word you know
Are Forest going to win the league? No they aren’t: So I don’t really see how that refutes my argument.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
If i said the team that finishes third must by definition have the third best squad in the league you’d have a point. But I said to win the major prizes like the league it’s a result of having either the strongest or second strongest squad in the league, only to someone like you would that seem a remotely controversial statement. Citing an outlier case to say anyone can win the league if they have a good enough coach is nonsense.
Plus Don’t tell me what I know, if you can’t make what you’re saying clear.
“You just keep coming back and wearing them down till they give up and you can convince yourself that you won”
That’s sounding more like you at the moment chief.
What really happens is you twist an argument away from the orgignal point in order to escape from admitting you're wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
The original point was whether a manager with a current squad in place, could change tactics and approaches mid-season to noticeably improve how it played
It was nothing to do with winning the league
To quote you: "we’ve been coached to play a certain way thus making it difficult to make big adaptation mid season."
So again... Everton alone proves you're wrong. I don't need to say any more than that.
And so, again... give it up
:lol: You’re the king of projection aren’t you. You accuse me of shifting the goal posts when that’s exactly what you always doQuote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
So Here’s what actually happened
I said that when you drill a team to play in a certain way and you buy players specifically to allow you to play that way, you aren’t going to be able to significantly change things mid season
You said “I don’t agree what about Everton”
I said Everton weren’t playing a system under Throat Cancer boy they were just playing ultra defensively
I also went on to say to argue against your point that a good coach that can effect these changes, that there’s a limit to this. You can get a relegation threatened side up to say upper mid table. But actually when it comes to a sustained title challenge you need the players as well. That’s relevant to our situation (we don’t have the players)
Admitting I was wrong would necessitate me thinking I was wrong
If you want to believe that this team can adapt to playing in a completely different way just like that I have a bridge to sell you, if you believe that it’ll make a fuck of difference without our forward line I have two bridges.
As far as I can see you, you don’t even have an argument. This is just a pathetic attempt on your part to say “see how you like it”. But I can carry this on as long as you like. I wouldn’t be making the same point for the last week or so if I didn’t think I was right.
You might think you're right (though I suspect you know you're boxed in to an indefensible position and just don't want to admit it, hence the twisting of the argument) Everton proves you're wrong, sorry but it's that simple. Ofc Dyche had an approach and tactics, he also recruited a fair few players to fit that system, so that's what Moyes had to work with and yet he's transformed them.Quote:
Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn
And actually if you want to talk about top of the table (even though it wasn't your original point), their form from when he took over has them second https://www.planetfootball.com/premi...e-since-return
:haha:
And yes, the only truth in your post is that we all know you will sit on this board 24/7, immediately contradicting everything because it's what you do. God forbid you might actually log off and go do something with your life.
And as for projecting, coming from someone who enjoys profiling people on the basis of a heavily edited documentary or a single messageboard post from people you don't even know, that's more than a little rich.
Anyway, enough already
Using that word contradiction again, very telling. But actually given you started this argument, you’re the one contradicting me. Unlike you I don’t mind that, but to repeat myself again if I think I’m right I’m going to say so.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
You asserting Everton proves me wrong is just that an assertion. And it’s a desperate one, I think people here are pushing back on what I’m saying a) because I’m not always that polite about the way I say it and b) don’t want to admit that everyone is powerless to change what’s happening on the pitch. It’s a fucked up situation and there’s plenty of blame to go around, but none of that does anything to change the situation.
I don’t know you, you’re right. I can only form an impression of someone from what they say. I would be very surprised if you’re not the smug self-satisfied lefty liberal who looks down on people despite not being anywhere as intelligent as they think they are. You could just be coming across that way, and actually outside of this place you could be a thoughtful individual who looks at each individual issue on its merits and doesn’t immediately side with the tribe according to what vibes you happen to like.
But there’s a complete absence of a thoughtful smart individual on here who doesn’t virtue signal and have a snotty condescending attitude to people about whose lives you know nothing. The same goes for Arteta, maybe there is a side to him that’s a people person, who can hold eye contact, isn’t passive aggressive etc….but that’s all I’ve seen.
I think the hostility comes because you don’t like the mirror being held up, you keep thinking it’s your duty to “call me out” for something or other, and you don’t like that I comment on the absurd inappropriate hypocrisy of it.
And I’m out at the moment, it may take up a massive part of your day but it doesn’t mine. What are you doing with your life, obviously whatever it is, is less important than trying the impossible task of trying to wear me down
As for your silly point about Everton being 2nd in the form table since Moyes came back, I’ll even do you the respect of believing you know the difference between a form table and an actual table. A league season is 38 games, not 6-8. But i guess if your need to win is strong enough, you’ll use anything
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2QpKF1PHL7g
Kimmich seems like a done deal. That gives us nothing we don't already have. Word is Partey wants a one year extension, I'd give it to him forget about Kimmich, or get rid of Merino and then bring in Kimmich.
Sounds Like Liverpool will be favourites for Isak if anyone goes for him at all at the crazy prices being touted.
Sesko doesn't give us anything other than what we already see week in, week out.
Zubimendi - same. You can slot any number of talented players into that system but it's still a system that lacks creativity, so the talent is wasted.
Tierney's too direct, so he's out.
Like the video details, anyone who has a bit of independence is out.
Rice told us how it is - managed down to the last detail.
I haven't really bothered with the whole Arteta in/ out debate, mainly because he's going nowhere. That debate isn't worth having. A more useful debate is can Arteta change? Can he react to the most welcome demise of Pep's fashion and dress according to the new trends in this league. Or can he set a trend himself, like Wenger did?
I don't know. I don't think anyone knows. Because all we've seen is the same thing over and over. Could mean Arteta doesn't want to change, could mean he can't. Next season he needs to show some evidence he's not going to do a late-era Wenger and suspend us in limbo for the next decade.
I don't have much faith in him changing, I thought he showed signs of learning when earlier in the season he was subbing Saka on 70 mins a few times instead of running him into the ground and was rotating Leo and Martinelli, but in general he hasn't shown any signs of learning, the failure to get in any attacking players being the obvious example.
It's a big reason why taking him on for his first job was a mistake, maybe if he'd had a smaller club he'd have more willing to learn but at Arsenal he's acting like he's the finished article but he isn't, nowhere near
Even if he didn't change yet somehow managed to win, I don't think I'd want to watch it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mac76
Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I am losing faith that Arteta will change.
The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.
Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.
Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.
And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.