When will Arteta be sacked by

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.

---

agreed and to cap it all, as some others have said, we could buy the ideal attacking player(s) and still see Arteta play him/them out of position and/or in too rigid a system to get the best out of them

Ultimately the one thing that needs to change is to stop playing two defensive midfielders in most games. There’s no need for it. At the moment, there’s really next to nothing we can change barring a few tactical tweaks (such as swapping Partey and Rice around) but when Saka returns. Odegaard needs to shift to 8, Saka to 10 and Nwaneri to the right wing

Apart from anything else it’s ironically making us less defensively secure because the proper defensive midfielder in Rice is caught too far forward too often.


As for next season, not really worth commenting on tactical change until we know for definite who is coming in. Whether we bring in a type of midfielder that can pass quickly into space for runners to get onto before the defence can get back into shape. I’m hoping either way that enough money is spent that Arteta will know that he has to deliver or else.

I think the injuries and outrageous refereeing gives him some excuse but he’s as much to blame as anyone else. In terms of results this season hasn’t been a disaster but it’s been a profound disappointment for many reasons

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

I am losing faith that Arteta will change.

The more I think about it, the worse his recent transfer decisions seem. Last Summer was pretty much a disaster, really. Sterling maybe the worst transfer for a decade - and to usurp Willian is going some. Merino - £32M wasted on a 28 year old journeyman who was clearly not what this team needed and has not raised the floor, let alone the ceiling of our team. We could have sourced a player of his limited ability in the Championship. Calafiori - £42M for an injury prone 'unicorn' player who might be a useful alternative in certain games, but was not what was needed; is a CB not a LB,, and has been usurped by an 18 year old academy player. All set against letting 4 forward players go, and self-evidently making us far too light in attack.

Frankly, the manager's blushes have been saved by MLS and Nwaneri - who have played far more minutes and done far better than the manager could ever have anticipated this season.

Even if we go back to 2023 - our signings were Rice; Timber; Havertz and Raya. Decent signings all, but Rice has not been utilised in his best position; Timber is not really an upgrade on Ben White, and Havertz is not a striker - and didn't really move the dial at left 8. Perhaps only Rice and Raya are league winning signings.

And the strand running throughout...tumbleweed in the top half of the pitch. As we have all observed, we are stuck in a rigid system that lacks dynamism; technique on the ball and flexibility and seems to discourage flair and real difference makers. It overloads players and leaves us short of alternatives other than in MF and defence. The chickens have come home to roost this season, and I am not hopeful that either club or manager can have the Summer needed to get us where we want to be.

---

The only hope that we have is that the board will eventually see that Arteta is a rookie and has spent £750m and only won a single FA Cup. That is a shocking return.
We also play terrible "tippy tappy" football.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chippy

The only hope that we have is that the board will eventually see that Arteta is a rookie and has spent £750m and only won a single FA Cup. That is a shocking return.
We also play terrible "tippy tappy" football.

---

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

---

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chippy

But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

---

Yes, agreed on this point. We've gone backwards. It's very frustrating that the first season in years that City stop being a juggernaut and it's Liverpool who nip in and the title race is over before February. We have been unlucky with injuries but we didn't do the right things last summer to help us push on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chippy

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

---

Yes - a fair summary. We shouldn't knock Arteta's achievements, but I think I agree with the Le Grove boys who are saying that this Summer looks more like going back from Stage 4 of Arteta's masterplan to stage 3, rather than pushing on to Stage 5. Last Summer we needed maybe 3 players to push on, because our MF and Defence was mostly there. Now, with the left 8 position still unresolved since Xhaka's departure; Jorghino (who IMO makes us better in MF most of the time he plays) going; Partey to be relegated to occasional player even if he stays; and Odegard showing that he has regressed badly, we are starting to look like we are going to have to rebuild in MF as well as up front. Plus we are most likely going to buy outside the EPL, so adjustment/bedding in for all our new players. When 3 players - striker; winger and dynamic midfielder would probably have seen us over the line this season, we (IMO) wasted money on a single MF addition (another member of stodge FC), and have mis-cast Rice all season. its so frustrating.

Another thing occurs to me also. Aretea's obsession with Swiss army knife players has hurt us. It has made us no less vulnerable to injuries/loss of form, and has resulted in a few players who are neither one thing nor another - when many of our competitors simply buy the best available player for a position, and play them there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Chippy

Ok, maybe slightly harsh because we were unfortunate last season with 89 points. And yes, Arteta has restored the relationship between the fans and the club which looked completely broken at the end of the Wenger era.
But, we should have kicked on this season with at least two new signings. In addition, why has our style of play gone backwards? This is why I mention the tippy tappy, back and sideways movement.
It seems like the players are scared to attack and shoot.

---

That's the point, Arteta inherited attacking players but has pretty much only signed defensive players - signing Havertz for left 8 is I think the only attacking positon he's recuited for - albeit he spent a lot of money on it.

The longer he's here you could argue we're seeing more and more what he wants the team to look like and how he wants them to play - and it often ain't pretty, even before we had so many injuries

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Ultimately the one thing that needs to change is to stop playing two defensive midfielders in most games. There’s no need for it. At the moment, there’s really next to nothing we can change barring a few tactical tweaks (such as swapping Partey and Rice around) but when Saka returns. Odegaard needs to shift to 8, Saka to 10 and Nwaneri to the right wing

Apart from anything else it’s ironically making us less defensively secure because the proper defensive midfielder in Rice is caught too far forward too often.


As for next season, not really worth commenting on tactical change until we know for definite who is coming in. Whether we bring in a type of midfielder that can pass quickly into space for runners to get onto before the defence can get back into shape. I’m hoping either way that enough money is spent that Arteta will know that he has to deliver or else.

I think the injuries and outrageous refereeing gives him some excuse but he’s as much to blame as anyone else. In terms of results this season hasn’t been a disaster but it’s been a profound disappointment for many reasons

---

My concern is that Arteta will continue to try and play Rice in a 'Xhaka' role to be a driving/attacking mid.
Then it won't matter who we bring in as we will still be stuck with two def mids.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

I think some of that is a bit harsh. We got 89 points last season, we pushed City to the last day and had it not been for their juggernaut (and we all know how they got to that level), we'd definitely have won one title, maybe two. Our net spend - I'd suggest that's more relevant than the figure you quoted - is less than Chelsea (lol), Man Utd (rofl) and Spurs (chuckle). His first full season we finished 8th and last two seasons we were genuine contenders. Don't get me wrong, I don't think he's going to get us over the line, but I don't thing "a single FA Cup" is the only metric we should judge him by. He's also been a part of restoring the relationship between fans and club, which had become quite toxic.

---

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

Another thing occurs to me also. Aretea's obsession with Swiss army knife players has hurt us. It has made us no less vulnerable to injuries/loss of form, and has resulted in a few players who are neither one thing nor another - when many of our competitors simply buy the best available player for a position, and play them there.

---

You could argue it's made us more vulnerable with the no. of injuries this season.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

---

Fans in "being fickle" shock exclusive.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

You could argue it's made us more vulnerable with the no. of injuries this season.

---

How do you think this is? (Not disagreeing - just interested). I certainly think that Arteta's obsesion with all of his players - including forwards - defending has been a factor with Saka; Martinelli; Havertz and Odegard. The sheer amount of running they are expected to do has to have had an effect. I'm not saying that forwards should not be the first line of defence, but there's a balance. Seeing Saka regularly at LB; Martinelli the same and Havertz literally collapsing with exhaustion begs the question of why - if our defence is as good as it's reputed to be - these kinds of sacrifices are necessary. Also, whether the sheer amount of defensive work these players have to do detracts from their sharpness when chances come at the other end.

I think Slot's greatest achievement this season is his load management. Salah is not expected to track back, but the defensive downside has been more than rewarded in g's and a's.

Conversely, our high 'pressing' style condenses play in the opposition's third - meaning less running required for them. The way Liverpool play, the other team is constantly having to bust a gut to keep up with them. With us, they can retreat into a compact defence and basically not have to move too much. There is something to be said for stretching rather than constricting play - both in terms of effectiveness and the relative loads on the teams.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Ironic that he also may be partly responsible for it going back that way in the not too distant future too.

---

Interesting point, if they don't get the right summer signings and/or show a more positive playing style next season I think that could well be the case

He's been there 5 years now, one FAC right at the beginning just isn't enough

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

How do you think this is? (Not disagreeing - just interested). I certainly think that Arteta's obsesion with all of his players - including forwards - defending has been a factor with Saka; Martinelli; Havertz and Odegard. The sheer amount of running they are expected to do has to have had an effect. I'm not saying that forwards should not be the first line of defence, but there's a balance. Seeing Saka regularly at LB; Martinelli the same and Havertz literally collapsing with exhaustion begs the question of why - if our defence is as good as it's reputed to be - these kinds of sacrifices are necessary. Also, whether the sheer amount of defensive work these players have to do detracts from their sharpness when chances come at the other end.

I think Slot's greatest achievement this season is his load management. Salah is not expected to track back, but the defensive downside has been more than rewarded in g's and a's.

Conversely, our high 'pressing' style condenses play in the opposition's third - meaning less running required for them. The way Liverpool play, the other team is constantly having to bust a gut to keep up with them. With us, they can retreat into a compact defence and basically not have to move too much. There is something to be said for stretching rather than constricting play - both in terms of effectiveness and the relative loads on the teams.

---

This

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mac76

Interesting point, if they don't get the right summer signings and/or show a more positive playing style next season I think that could well be the case

He's been there 5 years now, one FAC right at the beginning just isn't enough

---

Was chatting to a Liverpool supporter friend and he mentioned that when they won in 2020 didn't feeel right as there weren't any fans and the same could be said for our FA cup win against Chelsea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by dazthegooner

Was chatting to a Liverpool supporter friend and he mentioned that when they won in 2020 didn't feeel right as there weren't any fans and the same could be said for our FA cup win against Chelsea.

---

Absolutely, not that it wasn't great to win or that it wasn't deserved or legitimate. It just didn't seem "real" and there were other things going on which took attention away from it.

Even when one goes back and watches the odd highlight from either that season, or moreso the season after, it's almost out into its own little box. It happened but it's.mm different.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaqiri Is Boss

Absolutely, not that it wasn't great to win or that it wasn't deserved or legitimate. It just didn't seem "real" and there were other things going on which took attention away from it.

Even when one goes back and watches the odd highlight from either that season, or moreso the season after, it's almost out into its own little box. It happened but it's.mm different.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

---

I hope some of the Liverpool fans who left the city centre in an absolute mess (from my memory you were confirmed as champions on a Thursday despite not playing as City lost at Chelsea) felt bloody ashamed of themselves and helped tidy up the place the next day

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I hope some of the Liverpool fans who left the city centre in an absolute mess (from my memory you were confirmed as champions on a Thursday despite not playing as City lost at Chelsea) felt bloody ashamed of themselves and helped tidy up the place the next day

---

I believe you're right, as I remember the team celebrated in.... Iirc Formby Hall.

I stayed away from town for a good few days for that exact reason. Same as I will do if we win this time round.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

I was hoping they'd declare the whole season null and void.
That would have been hilarious :lol:
Although maybe not as we won the FA Cup.
Everything about that season and couple of years was weird.
Remember the curfews and checkpoints? Good times

:ninja:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shaqiri Is Boss

I believe you're right, as I remember the team celebrated in.... Iirc Formby Hall.

I stayed away from town for a good few days for that exact reason. Same as I will do if we win this time round.

Sent from my CPH2663 using Tapatalk

---

Don’t think it will be that messy this time around, I think that was a unique combination of people not being able to celebrate in pubs and in the ground because of covid and because it was Liverpool’s first league title in 30 years so a big deal

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Letters

I was hoping they'd declare the whole season null and void.
That would have been hilarious :lol:
Although maybe not as we won the FA Cup.
Everything about that season and couple of years was weird.
Remember the curfews and checkpoints? Good times

:ninja:

---

Nah was never gonna happen. Plus actually was quite pleased for Liverpool winning the title then.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Nah was never gonna happen. Plus actually was quite pleased for Liverpool winning the title then.

---

Whether or not it was going to happen wasn't the point, it was winding up Liverpool fans about it that was suxh a laugh - if you had a sense of humour that is

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Don’t think it will be that messy this time around, I think that was a unique combination of people not being able to celebrate in pubs and in the ground because of covid and because it was Liverpool’s first league title in 30 years so a big deal

---

I think it will be just as bad, if not worse. For a start, everyone is out and about. And enough people have convinced themselves that 2020 wasn't "proper" so they will make up for it this time round. Even if they were the same people out last time. Good luck to them I say, but I'll be staying away regardless :lol:

So I'm posting on here having seen some people on the PSG game thread suggesting that they would welcome us finishing outside the top 5 in the EPL this season because this would make it more likely that Arteta is sacked.

I am finding it difficult to process this!

I am as critical of Arteta as most on here when I see obvious mistakes made. But I really struggle to see the case for sacking him at this stage, despite these.

The case against Arteta on here seems to be based on 3 main issues.

1. Personal antipathy to his character (that includes apparent stubbornness and refusal to change his approach) (HCZ ;))

2. Frustration at some obvious mistakes he has made.

3. The feeling that there is someone better out there who would take our team and lead it to success.

Re the first point I don't get the hate. Much of this in the wider punditry world seems to be based on Areta's intensity and alleged victim mentality (always blaming refs etc); arrogance or (again alleged) touchline behaviour. But I don't think this case is made out. I see nothing in Arteta's press conferences that is unprofessional, over confrontational or obnoxious. He is intense, but for me this shows he cares deeply about our team and is desperate for success. As far as I am able to see, he has rarely used excuses to justify poor results. His players are clearly 100% bought in to him, and while it is undeniable that he has frozen out some players can we honestly say that is almost all cases he hasn't been proven right in this? I think that POGML has gone after him as unfairly as it has his players at times.

It is undeniable that Arteta has made mistakes. Also that he is (still) inexperienced. The failure to invest in forwards has hurt us badly this season, and I get (and have highlighted my own) frustration at some of his on pitch decisions. But focussing on these is IMHO very one-sided and ignores very real balancing factors. The idea that Arteta has not learnt from some of his mistakes is simply wrong. To give a couple of examples - we have seen many more attempts this season to try to rotate players and try new combinations. We have seen Academy players brought into the first team and perform. We have seen attempts to vary our style of play to suit the opposition, and the manager evolving past former 'first picks' like Zinchenko, and allowing the likes of Nketiah to leave.

And what about what the manager has got right? In player terms, there is a long list. Raya? We thought that bringing him in when we had Ramsdale was unnecessary - this decision was now undeniably correct. Havertz? We had written him off as a waste of money after 4 months but now have an ironic chant lampooning this. Merino? His re-purposing as a forward has brought rewards that had he been a striker signed in January would have been applauded (this also speaks to Arteta's tactical nous). MLS - an academy midfielder who has been a revelation at LB. That Rice was an outstanding player was reflected in his transfer fee and I can see that his performances could have been expected, but he has evolved under Arteta to be a potent attacking MF. Jurrien Timber? - enough said. Arteta - for all the justified criticism of lack of investment up front - has nailed a lot of his transfer business. And that's not allowing for the fact that almost all of the players who have left the club under Arteta have also justified his decisions.

In league terms - 8th; 8th; 5th; 2nd; 2nd - and a good chance of 2nd again. Liverpool under one of the most esteemed managers in world football and without having to recover from a basket case situation previously - 1st; 3rd; 2nd; 5th; 3rd (and 1st this season under Slot). In the 3 years prior to this season, Arteta out performed Klopp. In the CL - in Arenal's first season back in the CL after 5 years' absence we made the Quarters, and in this follow up season the Semis (for the first time since 2009 - 16 years! - and still not out of it). An outsider might well ask 'what do you want when it comes to evidence of Arteta's value to Arsenal?'.

We all want trophies - Arteta as much as anyone - and failing to push Liverpool for the league has been a disappointment. But we are only 4th top net spenders in the league over the past 5 seasons and even this is a bit misleading because it ignores the base from which Arteta had to come when he arrived. Our position this season is 11th; last season it was admittedly 2nd, the season before 6th(!). By this metric, it is clear that Arteta has significantly over performed. And let's not forget that our 2nd place finishes in 22/3 and 23/4 were benind the juggernaut that is the state owned Citeh - with 115 potential reasons to question whether this was a fair fight.

And finally to the last point. It's trite to ask who could come in and do a better job, with better prospects than Arteta at this stage, because there are a myriad of factors that make a manager a good fit for a club. But that said, most of those calling for Arteta's head either have no suggestions as to a potential replacement ('that's for the Club to do etc'), or make suggestions that carry so many question marks as to be, frankly, pointless. So I will try to approach the issue in 2 alternative ways. Firstly, which top world clubs would not even consider Arteta at the prersent time if they needed to change managers? I think the answer is pretty obvious and instructive. Second - two things to consider.

On Tuesday night, Arteta was up against a state owned club that has had a net spend over the past 10 seasons £300M more than Arsenal, has had CL experience of reaching the last 16 in each of the past 5 seasons, getting to 2 semi finals and 1 final in that time; and a manager who has won La Liga twice and the CL once (as well as being runaway Ligue 1 champion). PSG had no key injuries or suspensions. Arteta was missing 2 strikers; 2 mifielders (including Partey who has been instrumental in getting us to the semis); his first choice LCB and had a 70% fit Saka - arguably his most important player. He had to fundamentally change a settled formula that had seen us thrash RM and had been used to compensate for his striker injuries, and Rice's enforced change of position was arguably the reason for the result. Arteta not only showed his tactical smarts by fundamentally changing a dire situation in the first 30 mins, but lost by a single goal.

Slot won the league with a team that had been built extremely well by Klopp; relying to a great degree on a standout player who was the best in the league. Had almost no injuries to his key players - save Trent for 3 games and Alisson - but this latter was mitigated by having the best back up GK in the league. I don't really need to go through our injury crisis, but we have been decimated by injury for long periods to 5 of our most important players.

I'm not looking for excuses for Arteta - but if the knives are out for him it's simply unfair not to see this season in context.

This is a hugely long post and no doubt boring for some, but I wanted to get this off my chest.

My personal dislike of Arteta is somewhat divorced from my dislike of the job he’s doing (although there are overlaps because I think the mistakes he makes are at least informed by his character)

Arteta could have won everything under the sun for us, and I’d be happy for him to remain as Coach for as long as he wants and I’d still dislike him as a person (or to be specific…dislike the person he presents as)

Hate is a word I don’t use often, I don’t hate Arteta I just dislike him…if the word hate ever gets used in the same sentence it’s momentary rage rather than a general overall feeling

But I do hate the job Arteta has done this season, and I’d love to see him sacked, publicly humiliated and unable to get work again as a result. But I could think Arteta was a good guy and still feel this way.


When it comes to this season, I’m Ernst Stavro Blofeld before his face is revealed, doing terrible things to his underlings because he doesn’t tolerate failure.

This season is failure

I also strongly dislike Guardiola (or how he presents). There is this as I’ve discussed before this Iberian smug superiority that some from that area exude that grates on me. It’s not just arrogance as Germans and Italians can be arrogant but there’s a whimsy with that which makes it more excusable.

Guardiola is worse than Arteta in my view, unbelievably insincere, patronising and overbearing


He was a good player, but not a good enough player that Haaland shouldn’t have turned around and told him to fuck off for berating him at half time in a game against Burnley they were winning comfortably.


As for Arteta, I think Top players don’t respect coaches that had mediocre playing careers “what can you possibly teach me?”

I think this is why Arteta sometimes prefers younger players with less personality, because they won’t think “what have you won in your career to give me advice?”

IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.

Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.

AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.

At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.

As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.

I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.

I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)

Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.

Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).

For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.

If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.

This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important. If you have a functioning structure at the club that is conducive to success (and although I don’t rate many of liverpools players I think it unquestionable that they do have that structure in place) that you can get someone who isn’t this immensely talented superstar of a coach, but a pretty ordinary guy who is smart enough to know his place and not try to change too much like Arne Slot…you can be successful.
If you have a good enough squad (which Liverpool fortunately for us don’t) you can potentially have multiple successes.

Arteta’s main problem is he wants to be the centrepiece and in that his ambition and self belief dwarf his ability. I think if he resigned from Arsenal at the end of the season I think he would probably have multiple job offers from many clubs, because people will see the job he’s done at Arsenal and like it. But arguably the architect is not necessarily the best person to go forward with…you need someone without an ego who can work in a system which has been created for him.

And maybe that’s to a degree why Klopp didn’t achieve as much as he would have wanted, big ego…when what was needed was a dull functionary

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

This follows on from what I’ve said that actually the coach isn’t that important.

---

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important? :shrug:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

IBK, I suggest you try and watch the Barca and Inter game so you'll realise the gods did us a favour giving us PSG at this stage.

Like I said to HCZ on another thread, there are too many people who share these sympathies and this why even if we lose all the games left this season, Arteta's job will stay relatively safe.

AFAIC all I see this season are convenient excuses for someone who when he became a favourite for a competition (the EPL and the CL) contrived to mess things up either through hubris or lack of preparation. That isn't a sign of a winner but a glorified choker. And before you say we only became favourites this season, he also did it in the UEFA cup when we were favourites.

At the end of the day, I think its naive to think you'll win a league by continually taking baby steps, as we've been doing with this manager. That's the main reason I want him out, I can't ever see him doing enough to win the league.

As Slot has shown, and I said in previous seasons when I pointed out the list of Chelsea managers who won the league at the first time of asking, if a core of a team is decent, a new manager can always build on this and get you what you think you deserve.

I am beginning to think that only a nuclear event like Spurs winning the league or the CL will irk the fanbase enough to realise that we're waisting a talented bunch because we're afraid of taking the next step, as usual.

---

But your post ignores many of the points that I have raised.

I did watch the Barca/Inter game last night and share your sentiment that the level appeared far higher for both teams than we have shown. What I fail to understand is how this relates to the arguments I have raised to put Arteta's performance with us into context.

Barca - 5x winners of the comp in the past 20 years. Inter 1x winners in this period, and finalists in 2022/23. Both teams with continuous participation in and experience of the comp for the past 7 seasons (Barca since 1998). Arsenal never winners and not even in the comp for 5 years prior to last season. Even then, Arteta matched Barca's performance last season and bettered Inter's. Surely you are not saying that because Arsenal's performance on Tuesday with a very depleted team did not match these two last night this should be the standard by which Arteta is judged. Put another way, would Inzaghi's or Flick's teams been as scintillating/effective with 2 of their best 3 MF's absent; no strikers; no first choice LCM and, say Lamal and Dumfries (who scored or assisted all 6 goals last night) at 70%? You also don't know how PSG - equally packed with talent - would have fared against either team.

Your 'favourite' for the EPL and the CL point cuts both ways BTW. At the time when this may have been the case - it was based on performances and results achieved by guess who - the manager you want rid of. I'm also not buying the choker tag. You can't apply this while at the same time ignoring our injuries. My view is that we might have prevailed on Tuesday with Partey playing. We even had good chances to win the match. Are these factors the manager's fault?

Is it naive to think that titles are won by sometimes incremental progression? Even the great Klopp - coming in with vastly more experience - took 4 seasons to win the league and having done so failed to do this again in his following 4 seasons. There are almost inevitably setbacks - success is often not linear. Yes Slot, and some Chelsea managers won the league at the first time of asking, but my above post pointed out Slot's advantages over Arteta, and Chelsea had financial advantages not available to him. Also, Arteta did not inherit a decent core of a team. He came into a club in complete disarray, with a mediocre and unbalanced team, and huge work to do to turn the ship around.

If you are panning Arteta for an admittedly disappointing league season this season, are you saying that had our first team remained largely fit this season we would not have had a decent shout at overhauling Liverpool?

Where I have more sympathy with you is taking the next step. We are yet to see how we do this, and I am reserving judgment until I do.

The main thrust of my above post was lamenting the lack of any balance and context in assessing our manager. HCZ at least acknowledges Arteta's achievements. The issue is not as black and white as people on both sides of the argument seem to think.

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mac76

...and which has been shown to be absurd, and before you use the 'E' word, not just as I previously said by Moyes at Everton, also Santo at Forest, Ireola at Bournemouth and others.

Actually you can also spin it round and point to what a negative the fat Aussie has been at Spuds, also Russell Martin at Saints, whose suicidal tactics gave them no chance, a la Kompany at Burnley the season before

To say that the person who chooses the team, the tactics, the coaching staff and regime, and to some extent the transfers isn't important is palpably ludicrous

And you've often said you hate Arteta and want him to go, but why, if he isn't important? :shrug:

---

It’s almost not worth responding to this, because I think you’re so desperate to be right your whole argument is utterly confused.

What im clearly saying is if the setup at a club is good enough it doesn’t necessarily matter who the coach is. This isn’t the same as saying at every club the coach is just a functionary….please tell me you understand that?. It didn’t matter for Real Madrid whether Zidane or Ancelotti was head coach because ultimately they were just one small part of the overall structure.

So I don’t even know why you’d mention Forest or Everton as neither work to that structure. And I think it’s strange that you’re still trying the Moyes example because actually the results for Everton have gone back to being how they were under throat cancer boy, so your example of why what I’m saying is absurd actually only serves to prove my point.

Arsenal don’t have that structure either, Arteta has far too much power and influence, that needs to be curbed. We don’t need self professed geniuses with a god complex, we need quiet unremarkable guys who can work as part of a team not being the generalissimo.

Now kindly go away and try not to start arguments with people unless you bother to actually understand what the argument is first

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I think where I disagree with you, and if I’ve misattributed sentiments to you in anyway then I’ll withdraw. Is that you look to Chelsea as a blueprint for what we should be as a club and for me that would be monstrous. Not just as it is now but how it’s always been, I don’t want one good season, one thin season that’s been bought off the back of going berserk in the transfer market. The only coach there that brought in any measure of stability/sustainability was Mourinho and he then undermined that with his destructive narcissistic personality (I use that word a lot to describe people but we really are in an age of narcassists)

Arteta has been given a lot of money to spend but what definitely can’t be said of him is that if he were to go tomorrow, the next coach would have their job cut out for them. No I think given a few additions I think they’d have one of the easiest jobs in the world. Slot who you cite, is nothing special and benefited from a) having a largely settled squad available to him and b) the clubs that would have most likely squeezed them back into third place where for my money is where they belong, have both had atrocious seasons.

Arteta is responsible for this, but he’s also responsible for the fact that despite this we are still in the driving seat to finish 2nd and actually we’ve lost 7 games all season (which is the same number as supposedly brilliant Liverpool have lost).

For me it’s about getting the balance right, there’s no sense to me in being a team that wins the title or the champions league one season, to be mid table and then have to spend loads to build an entirely new team.

If we win the league, I want to retain the league, if we win the European cup I want us to try to retain it. I don’t just want big prizes in one season….i want us to create a dynasty of success. Something Chelsea never did, and Man City have only done through cheating.

---

From paragraph 2 I agree with everything you said and this has been the sentiment I have shared for ages. The only thing I might disagree with you a bit is there should be urgency to win the league, as the first win is what gets things rolling and not coming 2nd every year like we did a lot under AW which we are now repeating without the conciliatory trophies under Arteta.

As for your first paragraph, yes you have misconstrued what I've been saying regarding Chelsea as an example. I've never asked for us to operate exactly like Chelsea, what I have rejected is that Chelsea was a badly run club in its entirety and that there are no learnings to take from them. In particular, I agree with the notion under Abramovich (which Italian superclubs have always done) that made clear that coaches should be set proper targets and held accountable when they fail.

In the 19 years Abramovich was in charge Chelsea won 19 major titles using 13 managers, and they were the most successful club throughout this period (ManU followed with 16 and we trailed I believe we with 3 or so FA cups).

When Abramovich's reign started, Ranieri was at the helm and he got them to their highest league finish in ages (2nd) and got them to the semifinals of the CL. Easily Chelsea's best performance in a generation. Yet he was sacked. Mourinho comes in the next season, wins the LC, dethrones the Invincibles and wins the league with largely Ranieri's team while also reaching the CL semis. 2 seasons later he'd be sacked for a stuttering league campaign and not surpassing Ranieri's feats in the CL.

I'm not going to go on about every manager but will point out that these two top managers, if they were Arsenal managers would have been heralded as successes and probably been given 10 years each to perfect their craft and create a team that would dominate for ages.

With hindsight and looking at how both their careers have panned out, I can say without a doubt, if he had stuck with either manager, Abramovich and Chelsea would not have been as successful as they turned out in the 19 years he was there.

The initial reason I brought up Chelsea was to point out that all the managers who won the league won it in their first season in charge, using another's team to do so. Thankfully Slot has repeated this feat so I don't have to use Chelsea anymore when I point out the ability of a new manager to give us instant results like AW once did.

Managers like Pep and Fergie, who can build dynasties are once in a generation. You rate Klopp and I rate him also as being one of the best managers I've ever seen, but even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate. Neither could AW and the world rates him as a Genius.

As for Arteta, who has the gall to rate the Charity Shield as a big trophy, I don't think he's anything special nor is he going to create a dominating dynasty soon, no matter how much support he gets and how badly some of us need this to be true.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mac76

The blame for this league season is partly due to things Arteta has control over - negative tactics and setups, a failure to use all of the squad effectively and a poor transfer policy, equally we can't ignore the refs and injuries either, but if you get all that other stuff right, you've a better chance of overcoming.them

---

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

I think even under Abramovich, the Chelsea model is far too chaotic and inconsistent to be a model I’d want anything to do with. It was entirely based on money spent, even their two champions league titles came with apalling league campaigns side by side.
Ancelotti won the title in his first season, yet did nothing in his second season….wasnt a good coach one season and an average one the next.
Whilst it’s not quite look at what Chelsea have done and do the opposite, but it’s not far off that.

Klopp’s time at Liverpool has to be seen through the context of a malfeasant Manchester City. We talk about the frustration of getting 89 points and losing out on the title, Liverpool twice got 90+ points and lost out to them. And Slot knows and has the humility to acknowledge that without Klopp, there’s no way he’s winning the title this season.
Arteta has created something that an ordinary Slot like coach can (to coin a phrase :lol:) Slot into and be successful with, though it would require some tweaks….in that the influence and power Arteta has now, the person who succeeds him cannot be allowed. We need a first team coach not a manager, let the director of football and other staff have the responsibility and allow the new guy to work with them as part of a team rather than him having any authority over them.

I think Arteta would probably be fine in that setup, yes it can be argued that he’s negative tactically but take away a season where we’ve had also zero strikers….since 2022 we’ve won the vast majority of our games in the league and scored plenty of goals. However it wouldn’t be possible to change Arteta’s role at the club because of his hubris and his ego…so he has to go

@ 21 GS - even he couldn't build a dynasty of winners that dominate

And here is one of my main issues. Who is out there who is guaranteed to do this? It's easy to live in a fantasy world where there is a sure way to guarantee success. The reality is very different. There is far more chance of us bringing in a multiple title winning manager who flounders at our club than there is of even a celebrated coach taking us further than Arteta has and might well still do.

Plus building a dynasty (and by this I mean not flash in the pan success but something sustained like - as you say - Fergie; Pep; AW achieved) takes time. I'd say that by these criteria - taking us from the wilderness to a position where we have consistently finished second in the league and for 2 years gone past the last 16 of the CL is not a bad springboard for the lasting success that we all crave. Winning trophies is not easy, and there are too many random factors to ever make this guaranteed - at least for a club with our resources.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by IBK

Mate - that's not really an illuminating point. Every team's performance (and of course this is always relative) is to a large degree down to things within a manager's gift (HCZ knows I don't agree with his 'pilotless team' argument). This is evidenced by teams' relative ups and downs under different managers. Arsenal are no different.

Also, few managers (if any) do not make some mistakes, or are not reliant on good fortune.

Again, I am not making excuses for Arteta's mistakes (that I have criticised on many occasions), what I am saying is that people calling for his head are, in my view, taking our league performance and failure to improve on 2nd place as irrefutable proof that he is not up to the job, and failing to see this in any proper context.

---

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I’ve never suggested we should have a pilotless team, so it feels like (and perhaps you’re not the only one here) who misunderstands my argument.

When I say it doesn’t matter who we have, I look at Liverpool’s model….Slot is the head coach who knows his place….hes certainly nothing special….he just does the simple things right and although at the beginning of the season experimented with putting his own personal stamp on the team, he quickly saw that wasn’t working and kept with the Klopp formula.

I think the big personality who is the supreme commander and the conductor of the orchestra is unnecessary. You need a first team coach who can get on with everyone, doesn’t rock the boat too much and isn’t a galaxy brain. That’s all

---

Yeah - fair enough - we are all guilty of over statement sometomes :good:

I take your argument re the level of responsibility assumed by Arteta, albeit that my position is (I guess) that it is what it is, and we are yet to see whether it takes us where we want to go.