Are the doubters wrong about Wenger?

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Originally Posted by Letters

Anyway, someone posts the post-match interview with Wenger in which he was asked about the supposed foul by Arteta. He gave a completely reasonable response about how he didn't think it was a foul (which the MoTD pundits concurred with) and said it was 70 yards from goal anyway. Zimm's response:



What's that? :o Wenger is biased towards his own team? OUTRAGEOUS! (There is a school of thought which says that people who call themselves Arsenal fans should be that way...) And note how Zim completely ignores the part where Wenger said he didn't think it was a foul anyway.

Zim never misses an opportunity to have a dig at Wenger. And if there isn't a real opportunity he makes one up. It goes way beyond pessimism, it's real bitter hatred. It's completely bizarre.

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Yes I made that point for a good reason, as you well pointed out he is very biased and thus this gives his opinion little weight at all if he's unable to look at a situation impartially when asked about it, the point wasn't whether it was a foul or not but how objective he can be about situations (and that goes for his opinion on his team as well).

For me the point is Wenger irritates me with comments like this and if I'm honest his complete BS when we've collapsed rubs me up the wrong way, if we were losing and he was honest about it I'd have much more respect, but his patronising comments grate me and have for a long time.

So yes I'm sick of the tales, the empty promises and blind faith.

This lack of objectivity is actually a big problem for us, because he refuses to recognise the limitations of his team, the bad defeats are just unlucky and whatever happens he goes off praising his team, I don't want to hear the team praised when it collapses faster than a deck of cards on in a hurricane, I want honest views and comments about how we're not good enough.

It wasn't a dig at him so much as criticism of something he does which impacts our chances of progress.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Yes I made that point for a good reason

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Blind, bitter hatred isn't a good reason.

Wenger is biased, of course. So are all managers. So are all (proper) fans.
Mourinho, who you fawn over, completely embarrassed himself on Saturday by sarcastically congratulating the referees for conspiring against him :lol:. Had Wenger said something that stupid you'd have had a field day. In this interview he was asked about the Arteta incident, Bruce (biased towards his own team) had said it was a foul and the resulting goal changed the game. Wenger pointed out it was miles from their goal - so they should have had time to get back and cover - and in any case he didn't think it was a foul (the MoTD pundits agreed so you can hardly say that opinion is a case of Wenger's bias.

Wenger irritates you just by breathing. It was a good performance, a good result and a perfectly reasonable comment. There was nothing negative to say so in desperation you made up something. It's pathetic.

EDIT: The irony it it's actually you who has lost all sense of objectivity. Your blind hatred of Wenger is so strong you can't tell the difference between Wenger making a perfectly reasonable comment and a stupid one (which he does sometimes, but I'd suggest no more than most managers)

The other Mods need to have a word with you Letters. Why are you constantly stalking Zim and dragging old irrelevant crap from one thread to another? A pretty reasonable debate going on and somehow you guys are allowed to get away with calling other fans 'twats, filth, arseholes' and whatever else. Stop provoking BS.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

The other Mods need to have a word with you Letters. Why are you constantly stalking Zim and dragging old irrelevant crap from one thread to another? A pretty reasonable debate going on and somehow you guys are allowed to get away with calling other fans 'twats, filth, arseholes' and whatever else. Stop provoking BS.

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I've not stopped Zim having his say, I'm perfectly entitled to have mine.
As for the name calling, I don't think anyone has named names so there's no personal abuse.
Feel free to report posts if you think they've broken forum rules though.
:tiphat:

I'll keep that in mind. :good:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

I'll keep that in mind. :good:

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No you won't (points MIB style memory erasing stick at you)

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Originally Posted by Letters

Blind, bitter hatred isn't a good reason.

Wenger is biased, of course. So are all managers. So are all (proper) fans.
Mourinho, who you fawn over, completely embarrassed himself on Saturday by sarcastically congratulating the referees for conspiring against him :lol:. Had Wenger said something that stupid you'd have had a field day. In this interview he was asked about the Arteta incident, Bruce (biased towards his own team) had said it was a foul and the resulting goal changed the game. Wenger pointed out it was miles from their goal - so they should have had time to get back and cover - and in any case he didn't think it was a foul (the MoTD pundits agreed so you can hardly say that opinion is a case of Wenger's bias.

Wenger irritates you just by breathing. It was a good performance, a good result and a perfectly reasonable comment. There was nothing negative to say so in desperation you made up something. It's pathetic.

EDIT: The irony it it's actually you who has lost all sense of objectivity. Your blind hatred of Wenger is so strong you can't tell the difference between Wenger making a perfectly reasonable comment and a stupid one (which he does sometimes, but I'd suggest no more than most managers)

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It doesn't seem like you read anything I posted.

Wenger lack of objectivity is the reason we are where we are, his blind faith and inability to see anything wrong with his team year after year prevents any progress.

Oh and it's not bitterness, I'm just sick of the guy after too many years seeing the same patterns repeated time and time again, it seems some of you are so in awe of him that he can fail and fail again without it really getting to you, it's almost like he's brainwashed fans into accepting his points of view.

Wenger is the manager of the club I support, so yes I would have my say, what Mourinho does and says doesn't affect me, it amazes me how much it affects other people though, why should it it has no impact on anything at our club?

'support' :lol:

Goonersweb :lol:

What a mess.

Should rename it Goonersmess tbh

Quiet you five year olds

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Wenger lack of objectivity is the reason we are where we are

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OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.

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it seems some of you are so in awe of him that he can fail and fail again without it really getting to you

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You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

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Originally Posted by Letters

OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.

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It wasn't actually about the foul, it was the 70 yards comment, he was basically saying that even if it was it would have had no relation to the goal, but yet if it happens to us he says something different.

My point was that if something happens to us, bad luck plays a part etc, it's like it's never the teams fault and this is my issue, he deflects the heat off his team too much and it's not just in public, it's confirmed by his policies and the signings he does or doesn't make.

It was really about the situation on Saturday more about his general perspective when it comes to his team and events that occur in a match

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Originally Posted by Letters

You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

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I dunno, there always seems to be some sort of excuse for Wenger, it's a case of "yes this didn't work out but, he has done this", if he's not doing the job well enough there's no need to soften a point with a counter argument in the same sentence IMO. It's pretty clear in my eyes, he's had 9 years experimenting and doing as he pleases with the team and it's not worked, he just won't recognise this or change and thus for me there's nowhere for him to go if he won't.

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Originally Posted by Özim

he was basically saying that even if it was it would have had no relation to the goal, but yet if it happens to us he says something different.

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Like every other football manager.
In the history of football.

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Originally Posted by Letters

OK. That's a reasonable opinion. But was this an example of it? If it was a clear, blatant foul and Wenger's swearing black is white that he never touched him then you may have a point but it was a 50-50 decision. You see them given but you see them not too. Bruce, predictably, said it was a foul. Wenger said he didn't think it was. The MoTD pundits agreed with Wenger. It was a completely reasonable response, it didn't show a lack of objectivity. No-one else on here thought to pick him up on it because there was nothing to pick up. You, as always, couldn't help yourself. Good performance, good won, no real reason to have a go at Wenger so you manufacture one.

In terms of his overall objectivity, you have to separate what Wenger says in interviews and what he believes. All managers quite regularly spout a load of balls in the heat of the moment straight after a game, particularly a game where the result went the wrong way for them.
So yes, he does come out with some rubbish sometimes but so do all of them. And this wasn't an example.



You accuse me of not reading your posts, this comment indicates you aren't reading anyone else's posts. Literally no-one is posting like they're in awe of him. A lot of people still respect him, I am one of them. But I feel his time with us is coming to an end. I hope we win the FA Cup as much for him as for the club, I think he deserves one last success.

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What about this? It's the sort of thing that drives me up the wall and it's hard to just brush it off because we've done very little to sort out our injury problems so it worries me if this is his theory.

http://www.theguardian.com/football/...-arsene-wenger

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Wenger said that the internal review had yet to yield any hard and fast conclusions but he advanced a personal theory. "Some of them [muscle injuries] are down to the medication that the players take that you don't even know about. Then you realise afterwards that they took this medication but that's not prudent."

He added that certain medication could affect the liver and then it "doesn't work as well ... the toxins don't go as quickly out of the body as they should and they [the players] get tired". Injuries are sometimes the result of lower levels of stamina; if a player is, to borrow a phrase from Wenger "in the red".

He was asked to give examples of the kind of medication he was referring to. "If you lose your hair and you've taken something to make your hair grow, it might not be good, especially for the rest of your body," he said. "Medication always pushes a part of your body and is sometimes detrimental to other parts of your body.

"At the moment, we have not come to any conclusion … every case can be very different and you need to analyse very deeply why things happen. I'm surrounded by people who want to enhance their performances because they have another problem in their life and it's not always necessarily a good thing to do."

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That article :haha:

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

What about this? It's the sort of thing that drives me up the wall and it's hard to just brush it off because we've done very little to sort out our injury problems so it worries me if this is his theory.

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Well, he says it's an ongoing investigation but yeah, I don't really buy it's supplements causing the problem.
They definitely need to sort this out, it's killed us again this year. Hopefully their investigation will yield some results.
It shouldn't have taken this long to look into it, it's happened too many times now.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, he says it's an ongoing investigation but yeah, I don't really buy it's supplements causing the problem.
They definitely need to sort this out, it's killed us again this year. Hopefully their investigation will yield some results.
It shouldn't have taken this long to look into it, it's happened too many times now.

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nothing changes really

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-arc...njury-problems

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"Sometimes we rush the players a bit back. For example, against Aston Villa, we had Cesc Fabregas on the bench. I knew before the game that I will not play him but, at some stage, I decided to play him, knowing that it [another injury] could happen.

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Oh dear! You are right, nothing changes.

I remember he did the same for Wilshere and he's said the same recently about Ramsey and Giroud.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Other way around - gross spend irrelevant, net spend all important. A negative net spend shows talent going out, negative plus shows talent coming in. In the main. And you don't really need to examine the figures because it's self evident when you see who we sold compared to who we bought. The quality has ebbed away all over the pitch - consequence of funding business operations with player transfers. Should reverse now though, first signs of that being last summer.

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No - for comparative purposes, I think that net spend is irrelevant. Look at it this way - Liverpool have funded player purchases without having to sell the crown jewels. Granted, the financial model is an alternative to ours. But without financial doping they have made effective use of their resources. For me, its where both clubs are now - in light of spending (not sales) that is a valid comparison of our respective achievements.

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Originally Posted by Özim

I dunno, there always seems to be some sort of excuse for Wenger, it's a case of "yes this didn't work out but, he has done this"

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Well yes, there are always shades of grey. It's not excusing anything, it's just analysing things critically rather than taking a simple-minded black and white view of everything.

Literally no-one posts on here as if Wenger can do no wrong.
Some people do post as if everything he does is wrong.

We haven't won anything for 9 years, that doesn't mean the whole 9 years have been an abject failure.
Wenger clearly has some failings, that doesn't mean he's a complete incompetent who can't do anything right.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well yes, there are always shades of grey. It's not excusing anything, it's just analysing things critically rather than taking a simple-minded black and white view of everything.

Literally no-one posts on here as if Wenger can do no wrong.
Some people do post as if everything he does is wrong.

We haven't won anything for 9 years, that doesn't mean the whole 9 years have been an abject failure.
Wenger clearly has some failings, that doesn't mean he's a complete incompetent who can't do anything right.

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Zimm has wanted Wenger gone for 5 years but I'm not sure that he has claimed that Wenger is an abject failure? :unsure:

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Originally Posted by IBK

Zimm has wanted Wenger gone for 5 years but I'm not sure that he has claimed that Wenger is an abject failure? :unsure:

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I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prjhQcqiGQc

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Originally Posted by Letters

I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

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I don't go out of my way, I have postive things to say about players and occasionally matches, but I'm underwhelmed with our displays on the whole, I don't even really like our football much, the few times we've played counter attack it's been much better though.

I don't have much positivity with regards Wenger though, that's what 9 years of the same thing does, he undoes most of the good work he does in the space of a few months IMO with strange and poor management decisions.

I've made it clear I want him out now, I'm not sure why I should be offering titbits of praise when I'd be contradicting what I feel. As a top level manager I just don't rate him anymore.

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Originally Posted by WMUG

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=prjhQcqiGQc

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:lol:

Dental plan!

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Originally Posted by Letters

I seriously can't remember the last time I saw him say anything the slightest bit positive about him. As I've said in this thread he goes out of his way to find something to criticise him for even when there are, at best, very flimsy reasons for doing so.

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Wenger hasn’t made it easy for himself. In January 2010 he admits to overplaying Cesc and we’ll investigate the cause for so many injuries. 4 years down the line and he’s still mystified by our injury problem and has some wild theory about hair products. What are we to conclude from that? If he’s not incompetent (harsh words, I know) then what’s going on? I don’t know what else to conclude. He knows he’s overplaying players but won’t rest them or buy to ease the burden.

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Originally Posted by Özim

I don't go out of my way.

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We won 3-0. It was a good result and performance. Wenger makes a perfectly reasonable comment and you take the opportunity to criticise him for being biased towards the team he manages :lol:
Every bloody manager is biased towards the team he manages.

So yeah, you really do.

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Originally Posted by Letters

We won 3-0. It was a good result and performance. Wenger makes a perfectly reasonable comment and you take the opportunity to criticise him for being biased towards the team he manages :lol:
Every bloody manager is biased towards the team he manages.

So yeah, you really do.

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Again no, it was a decent result but let's not go over the top it wasn't like we were playing a top team, moreover we have dropped from 1st to 4th with no chance of any higher position in a short space of time so there results are somewhat underwhelming now (already said 4th is meaningless to me).

All he had to say was it wasn't a foul in his opinion, I'd have been fine with that, it's when he mentioned the 70 yard thing and thus this being totally unrelated to the goal it bugged me, simply because he says this but when it happens to him that's not an issue.

Yeah his interviews do irritate me, they're full of contradictions, blind faith and delusional statements about his team, the problem with this is that as a fan it's pretty tiresome to hear the manager of a team who have collapsed every season for as long as you can remember remain in complete denial, as long as this happens you know nothing will ever change and that is frustrating to say the least. People complain when other manager's/pundits say things about Wenger, but actually he does himself no favours with his post match comments.

IMO Wenger gets a really easy ride, he's had almost unparalled support from the club and fans over the years, he still does, there isn't another big club in the world he'd have lasted this long in the job.

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Originally Posted by Özim

:blah:

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Aye, whatever.

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

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Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

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A good point, and well made.

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Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

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Five points behind with three games to go?.....they would realistically have to hope that they beat Liverpool,that city drop points against palace and Everton and that Liverpoool lose to palace for them to win the title. I despise Mourinho but to be honest in his position I'd do exactly the same thing.

Funny how this thread about Wenger has become all about 1 poster. Zimm isnt earning 8M p.a. and doing little to justify it, Winning sweet fa for almost 9 years

Goonersmess :haha:

http://i.imgur.com/taVQbOF.gif

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Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist

At least Wenger isn't mourinho. If he is getting slated for saying he didn't think it was a foul, imagine what Zimm would be saying it just bottled the title race because he has to play a game on a sunday so won't play his full strength team like mourinho

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You're right Wenger as nothing like Mourinho - doesn't have the tactical ability to beat him or any of the other top teams, hasn't won a trophy in a decade & hasn't won the Champions league. Mourinho is a bad loser & comes across as a spoilt brat at times but some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing. I don't give a f--k what Mourinho says or does, you only have to look at the way they set up against Madrid this week to see how his tactics work & the success they have brought him - when was the last time we were hailing our tactical genius of a manager. We should spend less time worrying about what these guys say after games & just look at what their teams do on the pitch.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Funny how this thread about Wenger has become all about 1 poster. Zimm isnt earning 8M p.a. and doing little to justify it, Winning sweet fa for almost 9 years

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how do you know that?

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

You're right Wenger as nothing like Mourinho - doesn't have the tactical ability to beat him or any of the other top teams, hasn't won a trophy in a decade & hasn't won the Champions league. Mourinho is a bad loser & comes across as a spoilt brat at times but some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing. I don't give a f--k what Mourinho says or does, you only have to look at the way they set up against Madrid this week to see how his tactics work & the success they have brought him - when was the last time we were hailing our tactical genius of a manager. We should spend less time worrying about what these guys say after games & just look at what their teams do on the pitch.

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I'm sorry but i don't want to hear about Mourinho, i think a club like Chelsea should be ashamed that their manager resorts to playing the way they did against a smaller club like Atletico Madrid with the infinite resources they have. It's bad enough that they have the kind of money they have to spend irradicating any sense of building a club up whilst remaining fiscally responsible, but you'd think at the very least there would be some element of entertainment in what they do.

Playing 11 men behind the ball doesn't make you a tactical genius, it makes you someone who is more afraid to lose than determined to win.

This isn't about defending Wenger, any half decent manager could tactically outsmart him....but don't try and make Mourinho out at this brilliant schemer able to adapt to any given situation...he's a man who acheives things with a generous cheque book and doesn't even have the guts to do so with flair and style...pernicious little coward.

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Originally Posted by Dein-machine

some of the crap Wenger has come out with in recent years is actually more embarrassing.

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More embarrassing than claiming the refs are conspiring to stop Chelsea win the league when it was actually his own team's failings?
:lol:

Not really.