Champions League Last 16 Draw (14/12/15 11am GMT).

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Originally Posted by Özim

A shot at beating Barcelona?

I'm surprised to be honest, considering our record in this competition and how we go about our business I don't see how we have any hope of beating what is arguably the best team and a team that has 3 top top forwards.

We neither have the firepower to beat them nor the ability to keep their forwards out, they'll win this tie without too many problems IMO at best we'll sneak a luckyish narrow win in the 1st leg IMO.

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The last time we played Barcelona everyone saying the same thing. We had no chance. But we beat them at home and if we played better on their ground, we could have gone through on goal difference. It wasn’t a complete hammering as everyone expected. We’re a shambles of a team sometimes but we’ve raised our game in this competition where we’ve surprised people. That AC Milan tie is another example where we were close to beating them on goal difference at the San Siro. We had Bayern shaking as well on their journey to winning the cup beating them on their own soil.

We have serious problems as a club and having to win over to legs is difficult but not impossible because we’ve come close before with a weaker squad. I don’t think we’ll win the cup but I think the players will want to show for at least one game.

We've just retained the FA Cup. We're currently 2nd in the table and in the last 16 of the CL.
Do we have serious problems?

Problems, maybe, but all clubs have those. I don't think ours are that serious, relatively speaking.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

Really?

That is a pretty strange combination.

I think Wenger should go if we don't seriously challenge for the title this year but having just won the FA Cup and so far this season being 2nd and having qualified for the last 16 of the CL, it would be a strange time to sack the manager.

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Not really. I think the players will g themselves up and prepare themselves mentally for this game because they won’t want to be embarrassed. It’s happened before. Believing we can win against some of the best is different to believing he can win us the league and CL. Also, I’m not the only one that would rather see him leave on a high. If we happen to win the league this year, I can’t see him defending the title successfully or keeping the team together.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

We've just retained the FA Cup. We're currently 2nd in the table and in the last 16 of the CL.
Do we have serious problems?

Problems, maybe, but all clubs have those. I don't think ours are that serious, relatively speaking.

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Shut up, Letters.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Shut up, Letters.

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Well debated :good:

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

Well debated :good:

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I'm not repeating the same tired debate with you. Just read an old post if you want answer to that. There are numerous.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

Really?

That is a pretty strange combination.

I think Wenger should go if we don't seriously challenge for the title this year but having just won the FA Cup and so far this season being 2nd and having qualified for the last 16 of the CL, it would be a strange time to sack the manager.

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I am with PnG on this one. To me it boils down to a simple question "Will Wenger make us an European power or a dominant English team?" The answer to that is no, and I think a club with Arsenal's resources should be answering that yes.

With all the money sloshing around it's quite hard to see how anyone will be a dominant English team. I expect us to be in the title mix most seasons, I think Wenger can deliver that.
As for a European power, City and Chelsea haven't managed that with all their squillions, I'm not sure how realistic an expectation that is. But I do agree Wenger's record in the CL smells a bit. It's impressive to qualify from the group stage a million years in a row, but disappointing how seldom we've got further than that.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

The last time we played Barcelona everyone saying the same thing. We had no chance. But we beat them at home and if we played better on their ground, we could have gone through on goal difference. It wasn’t a complete hammering as everyone expected. We’re a shambles of a team sometimes but we’ve raised our game in this competition where we’ve surprised people. That AC Milan tie is another example where we were close to beating them on goal difference at the San Siro. We had Bayern shaking as well on their journey to winning the cup beating them on their own soil.

We have serious problems as a club and having to win over to legs is difficult but not impossible because we’ve come close before with a weaker squad. I don’t think we’ll win the cup but I think the players will want to show for at least one game.

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This Barcelona side is possibly superior especially offensively IMO, it's less one dimensional with the forwards they have and less reliant on Messi, let's not forget the time before last when they did hammer us, the fact they didn't last time was more due to luck than skill, Barcelona played us off the park in large parts and just didn't convert, but with the forwards they have now I can't see it happening.

People are deluded if they think we have a chance, this Barcelona team are far more potent in attack due to Suarez and Neymar now being part of the setup.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

With all the money sloshing around it's quite hard to see how anyone will be a dominant English team. I expect us to be in the title mix most seasons, I think Wenger can deliver that.
As for a European power, City and Chelsea haven't managed that with all their squillions, I'm not sure how realistic an expectation that is. But I do agree Wenger's record in the CL smells a bit. It's impressive to qualify from the group stage a million years in a row, but disappointing how seldom we've got further than that.

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Unfortunately, I do not see us being in the title mix every season with Wenger in charge.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

With all the money sloshing around it's quite hard to see how anyone will be a dominant English team. I expect us to be in the title mix most seasons, I think Wenger can deliver that.
As for a European power, City and Chelsea haven't managed that with all their squillions, I'm not sure how realistic an expectation that is. But I do agree Wenger's record in the CL smells a bit. It's impressive to qualify from the group stage a million years in a row, but disappointing how seldom we've got further than that.

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I do agree in part, I don't see why with our resources it should make us a power house of European football, even English football is getting harder. The billionaire clubs don't need the owners money anymore to spend big. The English league is a lot more competitive and I think that is why we are performing worse in Europe as you cant coast (perhaps Villa aside) through games anymore. Its hard to rotate players when you have to play to your best to get the points. Bayern, Barca, Real can coast through games. It isn't as physical and there resources far outstrip anyone else in those respective leagues.

Personally I don't care if we dominate or not, unless we are full of superstar players like Vieira, Henry, Bergkamp, Pires etc then I actually prefer competitive football.... as long as we still win. although there were times when we had those players that we had to have a player sent off to make the game a bit more even.

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Originally Posted by Özim

This Barcelona side is possibly superior especially offensively IMO, it's less one dimensional with the forwards they have and less reliant on Messi, let's not forget the time before last when they did hammer us, the fact they didn't last time was more due to luck than skill, Barcelona played us off the park in large parts and just didn't convert, but with the forwards they have now I can't see it happening.

People are deluded if they think we have a chance, this Barcelona team are far more potent in attack due to Suarez and Neymar now being part of the setup.

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So play behind closed doors and don't bother watching on TV is what you're saying?

So what happened to not being able to compete with the oil baron clubs? Goal posts are being shifted in a major way. What money have Leicester spent to be top of the table? Yes, the Prem is flushed with money but you guys can't look at the table midway through the season and assume you're seeing a regular pattern or an emerging pattern.

City, Chelsea and Man City have some serious spoilt primma donna's on their team that won't do the very basics. The league is competitive and I'm impressed with the way lower teams are playing but our rivals are playing below par. Let's not get carried away. If they were playing out of their skin and still losing then there would be a much stronger argument. But what we're seeing from the top teams is disgraceful and I'd say we're seeing more of a pattern of players sulking on the pitch to get their way. City and Chelsea have gone through so many managers they've created a rotten foundation for themselves because they have mercenaries throughout their ranks. This is what happens when you don't invest in youth and have players that came through the ranks. When you pay over the odds for toe rags too early and know when the going gets tough they can check out with a hefty cheque anytime they want. Look at Di Maria and David Luis. Football is going down the shitter.

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Originally Posted by Kano

So play behind closed doors and don't bother watching on TV is what you're saying?

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No, just watch it to see great players that you don't usually see playing against us, all with the knowledge that we'll lose, take it for what it is entertainment.

Find entertainment in us losing? That's just a weird thing to do as a fan.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

We've just retained the FA Cup. We're currently 2nd in the table and in the last 16 of the CL.
Do we have serious problems?

Problems, maybe, but all clubs have those. I don't think ours are that serious, relatively speaking.

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They're not that serious because all our EPL challengers are in the same boat. Not because we have obviously progressed.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

So what happened to not being able to compete with the oil baron clubs? Goal posts are being shifted in a major way. What money have Leicester spent to be top of the table? Yes, the Prem is flushed with money but you guys can't look at the table midway through the season and assume you're seeing a regular pattern or an emerging pattern.

City, Chelsea and Man City have some serious spoilt primma donna's on their team that won't do the very basics. The league is competitive and I'm impressed with the way lower teams are playing but our rivals are playing below par. Let's not get carried away. If they were playing out of their skin and still losing then there would be a much stronger argument. But what we're seeing from the top teams is disgraceful and I'd say we're seeing more of a pattern of players sulking on the pitch to get their way. City and Chelsea have gone through so many managers they've created a rotten foundation for themselves because they have mercenaries throughout their ranks. This is what happens when you don't invest in youth and have players that came through the ranks. When you pay over the odds for toe rags too early and know when the going gets tough they can check out with a hefty cheque anytime they want. Look at Di Maria and David Luis. Football is going down the shitter.

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Replace 'disgraceful' with 'bizzare' and I'm with you...

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Originally Posted by Kano

Find entertainment in us losing? That's just a weird thing to do as a fan.

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I'm just realistic and realise we're going to lose, stops me being disappointed when we invariably do, so I can then just watch the game and enjoy the quality of the players on show.

Maybe I'm just thin-skinned but I don't find getting rolled by a quality side especially enjoyable. Against giants or minnows, defeat for your side is a bitter pill to swallow. I can be less disappointed with a defeat if I anticipate it, but I could never enjoy it.

I don't think we'll beat Barca, but what the hell, we've bought the lottery ticket so there is always hope.

Well whatever, look Leicester are top of the prem right now and if I'd have called that at the beginning of the season people would have called me mad. So in that same vein I feel like we have a half-decent chance of a win against Barca. Its not anywhere near "odds-on" but if we work hard we can get a result.
I don't care what people think of Wenger, he's our manager and I treat management like playing staff and back them.

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Originally Posted by tpyo

Well whatever, look Leicester are top of the prem right now and if I'd have called that at the beginning of the season people would have called me mad. So in that same vein I feel like we have a half-decent chance of a win against Barca. Its not anywhere near "odds-on" but if we work hard we can get a result.
I don't care what people think of Wenger, he's our manager and I treat management like playing staff and back them.

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Course we do. This whole 'realistic' point of view isn't the preserve of a football fan. If that was the case there would be fans of around 70/80 clubs in England and hundreds more around the world who may as well just hang up their scarves. To dismiss any sign of hope completely misses the point of what sport, or any other type of escape serves in our lives. So what if we're let down, you just get back up for the next one, especially against a bunch of rotten cunts like Barcelona, the type of club that embody the worst in the game. Unfortunately if we want to compete that is where Arsenal will have to eventually sink down to but let's fuck them over if we can for now. Delusion at least reminds us we're alive for 90 minutes.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

So what happened to not being able to compete with the oil baron clubs? Goal posts are being shifted in a major way.

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Well yes, but the goalposts have shifted. 10 years ago we had the double whammy of the stadium move restricting our spending and Chelsea and City spunking money like it was going out of fashion.
In that era it was hard for us to compete with them. Now our circumstances have changed. We've paid off a lot of the stadium debt, we have new sponsorship deals in place and maybe FFP will have some effect. And the new TV deals mean there's more money across the board, the billionaires money will be less effective and buying up every trophy now the new financial deals have somewhat levelled the playing field.

I don't think anyone could have predicted what Leicester are doing. But they are a rare exception to the general trend that money and success in football are highly correlated.

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Football is going down the shitter.

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Has been for years :(

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Originally Posted by Özim

A shot at beating Barcelona?

I'm surprised to be honest, considering our record in this competition and how we go about our business I don't see how we have any hope of beating what is arguably the best team and a team that has 3 top top forwards.

We neither have the firepower to beat them nor the ability to keep their forwards out, they'll win this tie without too many problems IMO at best we'll sneak a luckyish narrow win in the 1st leg IMO.

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Sadly I agree, I think we have a 1% chance of progressing and I'm not being negative or defeatist.

I've seen enough of Barca this season to form the above opinion, they have gone up a level from last season and I thought they were superb last season.

Offensively they are soo strong it's not even funny, I watched them in the El Clasico systematically take apart Real (without Messi) and Real are a tier above us. I know Football doesn't always work that way but one thing I'll say about this Barca team is they consistently deliver in the big games, they have done for a couple of seasons now.

Of course we have the ability to surprise them, but over 2 legs?....don't think so.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

Well yes, but the goalposts have shifted. 10 years ago we had the double whammy of the stadium move restricting our spending and Chelsea and City spunking money like it was going out of fashion.
In that era it was hard for us to compete with them. Now our circumstances have changed. We've paid off a lot of the stadium debt, we have new sponsorship deals in place and maybe FFP will have some effect. And the new TV deals mean there's more money across the board, the billionaires money will be less effective and buying up every trophy now the new financial deals have somewhat levelled the playing field.

I don't think anyone could have predicted what Leicester are doing. But they are a rare exception to the general trend that money and success in football are highly correlated.



Has been for years :(

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I thought City have only really been spending the money in the last 5 years so 10 years ago it was only Chelsea. Also 10 years ago we were the top team, everyone was playing catch up with us. FFP wont have any affect with the new TV deals meaning City and Chelsea will make a profit, in fact that is probably what is going to make the league even more competitive as the TV money far outweighs the size of stadium etc benefits.

Without a large influx of cash there is no way Chelsea or City would have won the league. But despite there spending United still won the league without having to match that spend.

I do think the fact the league is more competitive actually helps us as all teams (except Villa) can take points of all other teams. We are capable of dropping points against anyone regardless but not with other teams doing it... means no one team can run away with the league.

I do think we have a great chance this season and it would be disappointing if it doesn't go down to the wire this season with or even without any new signings.

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Originally Posted by Bumble

I thought City have only really been spending the money in the last 5 years so 10 years ago it was only Chelsea. Also 10 years ago we were the top team, everyone was playing catch up with us. FFP wont have any affect with the new TV deals meaning City and Chelsea will make a profit, in fact that is probably what is going to make the league even more competitive as the TV money far outweighs the size of stadium etc benefits.

Without a large influx of cash there is no way Chelsea or City would have won the league. But despite there spending United still won the league without having to match that spend.

I do think the fact the league is more competitive actually helps us as all teams (except Villa) can take points of all other teams. We are capable of dropping points against anyone regardless but not with other teams doing it... means no one team can run away with the league.

I do think we have a great chance this season and it would be disappointing if it doesn't go down to the wire this season with or even without any new signings.

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Without new signings, especially in midfield, we have no chance. The experiment with Walcott as CF has not panned out either, so a new striker too is needed. Another half assed winter window is not what is needed, if we are serious about winning the league or giving Barca a real game.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Without new signings, especially in midfield, we have no chance. The experiment with Walcott as CF has not panned out either, so a new striker too is needed. Another half assed winter window is not what is needed, if we are serious about winning the league or giving Barca a real game.

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Yes new signings would be great but I would be surprised if we make 2, and those 2 being 1st choice players to make a big impact. Even if we don't sign any players I still think we have a good chance in the league. City aren't dominating and they are struggling with injuries too (Aguero, Kompany, Nasri etc). I don't really care if we give barca a game or not - the CL just isn't that important. Its still a cup competition, the league we can do it though.

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Originally Posted by Bumble

IWithout a large influx of cash there is no way Chelsea or City would have won the league. But despite there spending United still won the league without having to match that spend.

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Utd were hardly frugal though, they still had significantly more to spend than us.
And they had Fergie of course, who IMO was the GOAT.

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Originally Posted by Letters To Santa

Well yes, but the goalposts have shifted. 10 years ago we had the double whammy of the stadium move restricting our spending and Chelsea and City spunking money like it was going out of fashion.
In that era it was hard for us to compete with them. Now our circumstances have changed. We've paid off a lot of the stadium debt, we have new sponsorship deals in place and maybe FFP will have some effect. And the new TV deals mean there's more money across the board, the billionaires money will be less effective and buying up every trophy now the new financial deals have somewhat levelled the playing field.

I don't think anyone could have predicted what Leicester are doing. But they are a rare exception to the general trend that money and success in football are highly correlated.



Has been for years :(

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How have the goal posts shifted? Aren't we looking at the same set of contenders for the league each year? The TV money is a factor but do you think anyone besides the usual suspects has a chance of winning the league? A team that's never won it at all and that pattern likely to follow for years to come since the money is rolling in?

We've been looking at a 3/4 horse race for the league title for years now. Before our sponsorship deals and I think the the fact that Chelsea and Utd are doing so badly with City looking beatable have slightly spewed your perspective.

I'd say the money from the new TV deals has somewhat levelled the playing field. Not completely, and it will take some years for the effects to be seen more but the PL is looking more competitive. Leicester are a bit of an anomaly, I still expect one of the usual suspects to win it but I don't think the gaps between the haves and have nots is as big as it was.

The teams outside of the top 4 are really stepping up but I also think that is down to the younger, smarter managers in the league and newly promoted teams coming up with an attacking mentality. The hoof and hope stuff is going out the window. I don't think we're seeing the effects of the new TV money just yet. How long ago did the FA start that grass root campaign to try and improve the standard of English football?

But let's say the gap is shrinking in terms of finances. That still doesn't explain our barren years with Wenger. The smaller teams are now giving the bigger clubs a run for their money and getting results. But there is no way those teams have a budget that can compare to what we had before our new sponsorship deals. Not even close. You've always said the the billionaire clubs with the infinite money cheat made it near impossible for us to beat them but now you're saying the league is more competitive even though the majority of teams still have less than what we had before our new sponsors. Does that make sense?

I get the concept that teams taking points off each other makes the league more competitive but I've always said we'd lose a lot of points to teams outside of the top 4. That's always been our downfall. It's not as if losing games to our top 4 rivals always prevented us from winning the league. We'd drop points across the board.