Women's World Cup

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Originally Posted by WMUG

Just to add some context, the manager has previously been at the centre of controversy, being accused of bullying to the point where 15 players refused to play for the national team until he left.

Quite how that intersects with the Rubiales thing I'm not sure, but I thought it was worth mentioning.

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Unless by bullying you mean he was sending them unsolicited dick pics I’m not sure how it does, evidently they didn’t see the bullying as serious enough for him to be given the push

Ok so I’ve read a bit more about this whole debacle now

Rubiales is a Moron, I don’t know who is advising him in a public relations sense, but they need sacking…coming out and calling people “fake feminists” for wanting him gone, is the Trump school of diplomacy and in some quarters it may work but in women’s football after kissing someone on the lips…it’s pretty tone deaf. Still calling bullshit on it being sexual assault, but I think it’s the kind of thing you just don’t do.

Vilda looks like he’s been caught up in this storm because he’s about as popular with his own players as a bout of cystitis anyway, not just the ones who penned the letter to the FA but the current squad seems to have no confidence. Which I think is a bit ridiculous and political but if you’ve lost the dressing room what can you do?. I think lumping it in with him clapping at the press conference is pathetic, and if they’ve used that as an excuse because they wanted rid of him anyway that’s pretty underhand and like I say he’d be within his rights to take it to arbitration.


The whole thing seems to shone a spotlight on what is clearly a situation full of big egos, both in terms of the players, the coach and the administrators.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Unless by bullying you mean he was sending them unsolicited dick pics I’m not sure how it does, evidently they didn’t see the bullying as serious enough for him to be given the push

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Well the impression given during the WC was he was fairly unpopular with the players

Women just can't help themselves can they, they always have to be the victim. Can't even celebrate winning the WC without somehow making it about how men=bad.

He kissed her in a moment of jubilation, men kiss other men all the time in the same situation yet you never here a man saying he's been homosexually assaulted.

Besides I've seen the woman in question, she's no looker she should be so lucky tbh.

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Originally Posted by The Wengerbabies

Women just can't help themselves can they, they always have to be the victim. Can't even celebrate winning the WC without somehow making it about how men=bad.

He kissed her in a moment of jubilation, men kiss other men all the time in the same situation yet you never here a man saying he's been homosexually assaulted.

Besides I've seen the woman in question, she's no looker she should be so lucky tbh.

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Ah from one extreme to the other


I don’t know if you’re trolling, or if you’re actually the kind of person to flash a woman and when she gets upset say “I don’t know why you’re complaining, better than anything you’re likely to get”

Do men lip kiss each other in celebration? Can’t say it’s something I’ve noticed

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Ah from one extreme to the other


I don’t know if you’re trolling, or if you’re actually the kind of person to flash a woman and when she gets upset say “I don’t know why you’re complaining, better than anything you’re likely to get”

Do men lip kiss each other in celebration? Can’t say it’s something I’ve noticed

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you obviously don't go to the same bars as LDG... :ladynana: ;)

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Originally Posted by Mac76

you obviously don't go to the same bars as LDG... :ladynana: ;)

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I should certainly hope not, and not just because I don’t like the guy


Although it is mainly that

Rubiales quits, about time too: https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/66637879

Oh and for those on here who said the player wasn't that bothered: "Hermoso, 33, said the kiss after Spain beat England was not consensual and she filed a legal complaint last Tuesday."

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Oh and for those on here who said the player wasn't that bothered

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Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:
I think we all agree that he shouldn't have done it. But calling it "sexual assault", saying he "forced himself on her". This language isn't helpful.
There's a case for him to be sacked, although personally I think that's a bit of an over-reaction - he got caught up in the moment, he didn't grope her or worse.
The level of furore was been ridiculous, it's actually become "the story" and somewhat overshadowed the fact they actually won the World Cup.
Sacking the manager is ridiculous - although it sounds like he should have been sacked anyway for other reasons, they just used this as an excuse to boot him out the door.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:

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HCZ said it for one

in his post on p11 he says:

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."

:haha:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Who said that? I don't think anyone on here did. :shrug:
I think we all agree that he shouldn't have done it. But calling it "sexual assault", saying he "forced himself on her". This language isn't helpful.
There's a case for him to be sacked, although personally I think that's a bit of an over-reaction - he got caught up in the moment, he didn't grope her or worse.
The level of furore was been ridiculous, it's actually become "the story" and somewhat overshadowed the fact they actually won the World Cup.
Sacking the manager is ridiculous - although it sounds like he should have been sacked anyway for other reasons, they just used this as an excuse to boot him out the door.

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Personally, this seems like a mountain out of a molehill for me - although I understand that it speaks to a bigger issue of mysogyny.

Rubiales' stupidity was doubling down. Had he made a full and sincere apology - 'I got caught up in the moment etc and I accept that my actions were inappropriate and unwanted' then I think he would probably still be in a job.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

HCZ said it for one

in his post on p11 he says:

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."

:haha:

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She had previously taken a moderate view in that she didn’t get involved in the fray just stated that she didn’t like it.

I suspect (although can’t prove) that she came under pressure to become more activist about it

Because ultimately these incidents are never solely about the person who has done something and the person they’ve done it too, they become a paradigm case for sexual assault (which this absolutely wasn’t) which is unfair both on the aggrieved and the person guilty of malfeasance.

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Originally Posted by IBK

Personally, this seems like a mountain out of a molehill for me - although I understand that it speaks to a bigger issue of mysogyny.

Rubiales' stupidity was doubling down. Had he made a full and sincere apology - 'I got caught up in the moment etc and I accept that my actions were inappropriate and unwanted' then I think he would probably still be in a job.

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100% agree with this

I think the other factor is politics, there was clearly a long running issue between the players, the coach and the football association. But yes as I previously said Rubiales is a moron

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Originally Posted by Mac76

"What I like is that the only person who has taken a moderate stance on this is Jenni Hermoso herself."

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HCZ has covered this, but those two statements are not equivalent.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

She had previously taken a moderate view in that she didn’t get involved in the fray just stated that she didn’t like it.

I suspect (although can’t prove) that she came under pressure to become more activist about it

Because ultimately these incidents are never solely about the person who has done something and the person they’ve done it too, they become a paradigm case for sexual assault (which this absolutely wasn’t) which is unfair both on the aggrieved and the person guilty of malfeasance.

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It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.

And in any case she said shortly afterwards - see article below from, err, 24 August - that "‘I felt the victim of aggression, a sexist act’"

https://www.theguardian.com/football...tement-in-full

Give it up mate

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Originally Posted by Mac76

It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.

And in any case she said shortly afterwards - see article below from, err, 24 August - that "‘I felt the victim of aggression, a sexist act’"

https://www.theguardian.com/football...tement-in-full

Give it up mate

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Give what up? The idea that I don’t think a sexual assault has taken place. Even in her own words she’s described it as sexist (misogynist) which given his follow up remarks probably isn’t that inaccurate. But it is a storm in a teacup and far more indicative of an ongoing feud between the players and the organisation than anything else.

And again I’ll say that most of what I’ve said on the subject regards the coach Jorge Vilda, who again appears to have been dragged into this row in order to justify what they wanted to do anyway. And I think that’s not on. You disagree, you seem to think that if something upsets your preconceived notions of right and wrong that it doesn’t matter who gets caught up in the whirlwind

I know you’ve used it as throwaway remark but also I’m not your mate just something to keep in mind :)

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Give what up? The idea that I don’t think a sexual assault has taken place. Even in her own words she’s described it as sexist (misogynist) which given his follow up remarks probably isn’t that inaccurate. But it is a storm in a teacup and far more indicative of an ongoing feud between the players and the organisation than anything else.

And again I’ll say that most of what I’ve said on the subject regards the coach Jorge Vilda, who again appears to have been dragged into this row in order to justify what they wanted to do anyway. And I think that’s not on. You disagree, you seem to think that if something upsets your preconceived notions of right and wrong that it doesn’t matter who gets caught up in the whirlwind

I know you’ve used it as throwaway remark but also I’m not your mate just something to keep in mind :)

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You conveniently leave out the word 'aggression' and in general are exhibiting NQ-level denial

"I feel the need to denounce this as I feel that no one, in no work space, sporting or social, should be a victim to this time of unconsensual behaviour. I felt vulnerable and a victim of aggression, an impulsive act, sexist, out of place and without any type of consent from my part."

That's pretty strong in anyone's book and hardly sounds like someone who wasn't that bothered, as you desperately try to maintain just because you'd rather talk about cancel culture, rather than accept the harm the actions of people like Rubiales do and why it's important for people to call it out

PS don't worry i wasn't under any illusions on that :)

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Originally Posted by Mac76

You conveniently leave out the word 'aggression' and in general are exhibiting NQ-level denial

"I feel the need to denounce this as I feel that no one, in no work space, sporting or social, should be a victim to this time of unconsensual behaviour. I felt vulnerable and a victim of aggression, an impulsive act, sexist, out of place and without any type of consent from my part."

That's pretty strong in anyone's book and hardly sounds like someone who wasn't that bothered, as you desperately try to maintain just because you'd rather talk about cancel culture, rather than accept the harm the actions of people like Rubiales do and why it's important for people to call it out

PS don't worry i wasn't under any illusions on that :)

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And what I’m saying is these remarks come across as contrived and coached especially when words like harm are used. It’s the type of PR washed statement that you can recognise a mile away. As I said my mistaken impression was that she’d taken a low key approach to things, but evidently even if she was inclined to do so that could not have happened.

And it’s utterly disingenuous of you to again ignore the context of where I inserted cancel culture into the conversation, it was in respect of Jorge Vilda. On its own I don’t believe what Rubiales did was a sackable offence but the way he then doubled down in a press conference means I have no sympathy for him….I said this already. But even if he hadn’t made those remarks I feel he’d have been forced out partly for political reasons and partly because of this puritanical censorious mood going about where people who do stupid things need to be subject to the modern equivalent of charivardi.

Me in my simple naive innocence believe a punishment should be proportional to the offence. The offence I took to be an inappropriate action made in a moment of high drama and jubilation, rather than the sexual assault you wish to portray it as.

If he had a history of such behaviour? Fine gone, He’s made silly remarks since then? Fine gone. And I don’t think this spectacle in anyway serves to help women against actual abusers…and yes I’ve come across them in the work place and I’ve had to persuade female friends who have been assaulted to go to the police so I don’t exactly take the issue lightly

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Me in my simple naive innocence believe a punishment should be proportional to the offence. The offence I took to be an inappropriate action made in a moment of high drama and jubilation, rather than the sexual assault you wish to portray it as.

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well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years

and again, sacking him's completely proportionate given his position as the head of women's football in Spain and the example he needs to set

oh and by the way if you want to talk about pressure being put on Hermoso, she says the pressure was all from the other side: "I have to state that I have been under constant pressure to come out with some sort of statement that would justify the acts of Mr Luis Rubiales."

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Originally Posted by Mac76

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years

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Have they, though? When you hear accounts of women who have suffered at the hands of genuine predators, the acts are almost always in private or subtle. They're always telling the victim that it's a secret and or threatening them with consequences if they tell - or telling them they won't be believed because of the power or status imbalance between the victim and perpetrator.
This really wasn't like that. Although I do take the point about the example he should be setting, and his failure to immediately show contrition and decision to double down strengthened the case for his sacking.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Have they, though? When you hear accounts of women who have suffered at the hands of genuine predators, the acts are almost always in private or subtle. They're always telling the victim that it's a secret and or threatening them with consequences if they tell - or telling them they won't be believed because of the power or status imbalance between the victim and perpetrator.
This really wasn't like that. Although I do take the point about the example he should be setting, and his failure to immediately show contrition and decision to double down strengthened the case for his sacking.

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Sure, it's not usually in public, but even when they do it out of people's sight I wouldn't be surprised if they, as well as doing what you suggest, saying it was just in the heat of the moment

But yes, it really is all about the example it sets, if he doesn't get punished then it's basically a green light for any guy who wants to grab a girl and kiss her in public

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Originally Posted by Mac76

well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

people like him have traded off that 'caught up in the moment' BS for years

and again, sacking him's completely proportionate given his position as the head of women's football in Spain and the example he needs to set

oh and by the way if you want to talk about pressure being put on Hermoso, she says the pressure was all from the other side: "I have to state that I have been under constant pressure to come out with some sort of statement that would justify the acts of Mr Luis Rubiales."

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How many people do you think were watching that match and the after award globally? The suggestion that it could have been premeditated makes absolutely no sense unless Rubiales has some kind of personality disorder that overrides any sense of good judgement. The whole point of unwanted sexual behaviour is that it tends to be surreptitious.


I’m going to call bollocks on that last statement, the amount of pressure from a media with the bit between its teeth meant that even if she had made a statement like that it would have made no difference. The baying mob wanted his head.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Sure, it's not usually in public, but even when they do it out of people's sight I wouldn't be surprised if they, as well as doing what you suggest, saying it was just in the heat of the moment

But yes, it really is all about the example it sets, if he doesn't get punished then it's basically a green light for any guy who wants to grab a girl and kiss her in public

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So I agree partially, where I don’t agree is what the punishment. Change the scenario and a drunken office party and a guy kisses a girl because he’s misread the signs and she immediately pulls away and tells him “don’t ever do that again”. The bloke apologises and immediately feels guilt, shame and all the rest.

She complains to HR and they consider it a disciplinary offence because it happened on their premises, should that be a sacking offence?

There’s never been any prior inappropriate behaviour, these two colleagues have previously been on good terms, both are single and he’s just misunderstood.

Because from what you’re saying, it seems to be that context doesn’t matter because the easiest thing to do is to assume the worst motivation

OMG, WTF is this all about? What the hell are you all going on about? What a surprise that the "drama" in women's football has nothing to do with football. Pages of bullshit. It's hilarious. How pussy whipped do you need to be before you get a prize?

Women's football. A contradiction.

Besides, the men play women's football now, so why do we need the women? And are we talking actual women, or would that be a micro-aggression against all the other creatures with tits who don't identify as women, or the blokes who want to get pregnant?

Jeez, what a clown world.

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

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Originally Posted by WMUG

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

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I tend to agree

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Originally Posted by WMUG

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

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Pff. What are you losers doing at 3;09am?
Being sober?
Sleeping?

:sulk:

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Originally Posted by Letters

Pff. What are you losers doing at 3;09am?
Being sober?
Sleeping?

:sulk:

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funnily enough i found myself awake at 3am this morning and while I struggled to immediately get back to sleep, going on GW and ranting in lunatic fashion just didn't occur to me...

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Originally Posted by Mac76

funnily enough i found myself awake at 3am this morning and while I struggled to immediately get back to sleep, going on GW and ranting in lunatic fashion just didn't occur to me...

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I woke at 4 (I ascribe the fact that I’m not the only one doing so to the heat) I saw NQ’s comments. Frankly I was offended that he couldn’t trouble himself to write more than a sentence :lol: and went back to sleep.

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Originally Posted by WMUG

This is not the behaviour of a healthy person.

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Look around you, do you see a lot of psychologically healthy people writing here?

We are all (including myself) predisposed to argue ourselves into a corner over a need to be right. There’s a few of us that spend far too much time on here because argument is a form of sport. And I suspect on top of that we are inclined towards online disinhibition…especially me.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

It's hardly moderate for the entire Spanish women's football team (including Hermoso) to refuse to play again while he is in post - which they announced not long after the incident.

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They should have called their bluff. Win-win they'd no longer have to waste money subsidising this nonsense.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

well it is naive to think an old fart like Rubiales wouldn't simply be grabbing the opportunity to snog a young women in the knowledge (or so he thought) that he could get away with it.

"

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Young woman
33

Pick one

She's a good 10 years past her sell by date tbh

Besides it wasn't a snog it was a peck.

Yes, that's right :console:

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

How many people do you think were watching that match and the after award globally? The suggestion that it could have been premeditated makes absolutely no sense unless Rubiales has some kind of personality disorder that overrides any sense of good judgement. The whole point of unwanted sexual behaviour is that it tends to be surreptitious.


I’m going to call bollocks on that last statement, the amount of pressure from a media with the bit between its teeth meant that even if she had made a statement like that it would have made no difference. The baying mob wanted his head.

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I tend to agree with your view that this whole thing was the result of public pressure. Like we have both said, it was Rubiales conduct afterwards that was the greater stupidity.

Not saying that Rubiales behaviour was warranted - just that the whole reaction that this was sexual assault seems a bit overblown. The overhype is demonstrated by the subsequent lynch mob that took Vilda's job...for the apparent offence of applauding the Rubiales, during a speech in which he refused to resign - ignoring the fact that Vilda's applause undoutedly had more to do with Rubiales' public support for him (he offered the under fire coach a pay rise). IMO this was simply a pretext for gettign rid of an unpopular manager.

I can actually imagine a scenario in which an overexcited individual kissed a male player - in which case I don't think there would have been any reaction at all...

IMHO this kind of over reaction does very little to assist the supposed cause - in this case mysogyny.

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Originally Posted by IBK

I tend to agree with your view that this whole thing was the result of public pressure. Like we have both said, it was Rubiales conduct afterwards that was the greater stupidity.

Not saying that Rubiales behaviour was warranted - just that the whole reaction that this was sexual assault seems a bit overblown. The overhype is demonstrated by the subsequent lynch mob that took Vilda's job...for the apparent offence of applauding the Rubiales, during a speech in which he refused to resign - ignoring the fact that Vilda's applause undoutedly had more to do with Rubiales' public support for him (he offered the under fire coach a pay rise). IMO this was simply a pretext for gettign rid of an unpopular manager.

I can actually imagine a scenario in which an overexcited individual kissed a male player - in which case I don't think there would have been any reaction at all...

IMHO this kind of over reaction does very little to assist the supposed cause - in this case mysogyny.

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I don't agree and tbh this is another example of people just not understanding the significance

anyway what's wrong with 'public pressure' forcing him to go? the pressure is justified IMO

Rubiales left everyone with two choices - leave him in place with a slap on the wrist and therefore green-light every guy who wants to force themselves on a girl in the name of 'being caught up in the moment' - or come down hard on it to show women are properly respected

The right choice has been made

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

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Originally Posted by Letters

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

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Do I? :shrug: it's a commonly-used phrase to describe that kind of behaviour and that's what he did - he forced himself onto her for the kiss

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Originally Posted by Mac76

I don't agree and tbh this is another example of people just not understanding the significance

anyway what's wrong with 'public pressure' forcing him to go? the pressure is justified IMO

Rubiales left everyone with two choices - leave him in place with a slap on the wrist and therefore green-light every guy who wants to force themselves on a girl in the name of 'being caught up in the moment' - or come down hard on it to show women are properly respected

The right choice has been made

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I’m genuinely interested how far you would apply this belief, so if we assume your belief that Rubiales was motivated by sexual desire rather than overexuberance. If two people go on a date, and they hug goodnight at the end of the date and the guy kisses the woman who isn’t in to him at all and pulls away and says “don’t do that” and the guy immediately apologises and said he misread the signs…do you think he’s committed sexual assault. Does even going into to kiss someone now require explicit consent?

Because if it does you’ve essentially destroyed any sense of spontaneity in human romantic encounters. This is a completely different context of course because I don’t believe Rubiales had any sexual/romantic intent.

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Originally Posted by Letters

You really need to stop using language like "force themselves on a girl".

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Playing devils advocate here but if someone held your wife and planted a kiss on her lips, what else would you call it if it’s not forced?

I’m in full agreement that the reaction has been a little bit disproportionate but I also feel like what he did was totally inappropriate and although it’s obviously at the lower end of the “abuse” scale, I guess it would still have to be considered abuse given the lack of consent.

Where he fucked up most was not immediately showing contrition, accepting he made a mistake and acknowledging why women were outraged.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I’m genuinely interested how far you would apply this belief, so if we assume your belief that Rubiales was motivated by sexual desire rather than overexuberance. If two people go on a date, and they hug goodnight at the end of the date and the guy kisses the woman who isn’t in to him at all and pulls away and says “don’t do that” and the guy immediately apologises and said he misread the signs…do you think he’s committed sexual assault. Does even going into to kiss someone now require explicit consent?

Because if it does you’ve essentially destroyed any sense of spontaneity in human romantic encounters. This is a completely different context of course because I don’t believe Rubiales had any sexual/romantic intent.

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Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Well that context is entirely different - that's two people in their own personal time who have been on a date so when they go on that date they both know there is a possibility of a physical encounter, but if as you say the guy pulls away immediately then that is fine

we are talking about a man working in his professional capacity, representing the whole of Spanish football on a world stage, taking the opportunity to kiss a young woman while guessing, correctly, she wouldn't pull away and make a scene

I don't buy the exuberance argument at all, he's too old and too experienced and in too senior a professional job to let his guard off like that, IMO it was someone trying to take advantage, we will have to disagree on that because neither of us can prove we're right

Ultimately he let himself down either way and the signal it sends is too great to be ignored

You keep ignoring my point about letting him off being a green-light for any guy who fancies a quick snog in any context when people are celebrating, as they could say "it was just like Rubiales, I just got carried away" and also the woman thinking she has to accept it because Rubiales got away with it

If, in order to prevent many such scenarios, it means having to come down hard on Rubiales then so be it

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My God you are pathetic!