Arsenal - A 'Broken' Club

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.

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This is so true and it doesn't seem to be abating.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.

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I'm sure he cares but I don't think disappointment hurts him (or the squad for that matter) as much as it should. If he was really hurt then he wouldn't be so passive in the transfer market, that's not a question of him being able to do anything about it, it's a choice he makes because he wants to operate in a certain way, he won't allow anything to compromise that.

I could never imagine Mourinho, Pep, Klopp and other top mangers being so passive after underachievement.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I'm sure he cares but I don't think disappointment hurts him (or the squad for that matter) as much as it should. If he was really hurt then he wouldn't be so passive in the transfer market, that's not a question of him being able to do anything about it, it's a choice he makes because he wants to operate in a certain way, he won't allow anything to compromise that.

I could never imagine Mourinho, Pep, Klopp and other top mangers being so passive after underachievement.

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Totally agree, the season his team got spanked several times over he seemed to brush it off like it was nothing, when actually it was a humiliation, the debarcle on his 1000th game was an embarrassment for all involved, not convinced many managers would have survived as many beatings like that in one season, as usual though he just moved on, the players weren't even fired up to get revenge in our next meeting with those teams, sums him up really.

Other managers would have been scathing about the performance and been ruthless with players, not him though, it's like it never happened. Before he arrived I can only really remember one bad beating, at the hands of Man U in the league cup and his first few years we barely ever lost, never mind by big margins, last 10 years though there's been too many spankings for a club of our stature.

Well, you can't quantify disappointment but I go back to Dein's interview where he described Wenger's mood after defeats. It clearly hurts him. Why he doesn't do more to change it...
Is it stubborn belief that the players are good enough? (Unlikely given that he keeps bidding for strikers)
Is it stubborn belief that prices are crazy and he doesn't want to get involved? (More likely but he did buy Ozil and Sanchez who weren't cheap, why not push the boat out for a top striker?)
Is it that he's looking longer term and doesn't want to put us in financial problems? (There has been some of that during the stadium move, again Dein's interview backs that up but that doesn't wash any more, we clearly have the money to spend big without putting ourselves in financial difficulty).

Who knows. We seem inept in the transfer market and Wenger clearly needs 'a Dein' to help with that side of things. But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, you can't quantify disappointment but I go back to Dein's interview where he described Wenger's mood after defeats. It clearly hurts him. Why he doesn't do more to change it...
Is it stubborn belief that the players are good enough? (Unlikely given that he keeps bidding for strikers)
Is it stubborn belief that prices are crazy and he doesn't want to get involved? (More likely but he did buy Ozil and Sanchez who weren't cheap, why not push the boat out for a top striker?)
Is it that he's looking longer term and doesn't want to put us in financial problems? (There has been some of that during the stadium move, again Dein's interview backs that up but that doesn't wash any more, we clearly have the money to spend big without putting ourselves in financial difficulty).

Who knows. We seem inept in the transfer market and Wenger clearly needs 'a Dein' to help with that side of things. But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

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At the same time, Dein hasn't been with the club since 2007 and i don't think Wenger has the same drive and hatred of losing that he did. He has taken on far more responsibility since Dein left, and it's just possible that because he sees himself responsible for the day to day running of the club that he isn't so singled mindedly obsessed with winning any more.
It's there in the body language, the worst one was the Southampton game....he should have been livid with the players....as i honestly think that was the worst performance i've seen with him as manager, there have been bigger more humiliating defeats.....but this took the biscuit because the players simply just weren't trying at all....they didn't seem to care and if the players don't seem to care, who is encouraging them to care?

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Originally Posted by Letters

But I don't buy it's that he's so content with top 4 that he doesn't care about doing better.

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You say that and yet he always seems proud of his top 4 spot and never really looks too downbeat when he fails to win trophies, it's easy to say he cares, where's the evidence though, he has money if he really cared that much he'd spend it on players we clearly need, the fact he doesn't suggests he doesn't care enough, whatever his reasoning behind it.

What he says and what he does don't tally. You can say you are deeply disappointed finishing last in a race because you are a fat bastard and then you can go and eat a pile of pizza. What does your disappointment count for then, because you are the author of your own downfall? Wenger says it hurts to lose, and then he avoids doing what it takes to win. His words and his sentiments shouldn't be accepted as any form of compensation for his failure to translate those words into action. All talk, no trousers.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

At the same time, Dein hasn't been with the club since 2007 and i don't think Wenger has the same drive and hatred of losing that he did. He has taken on far more responsibility since Dein left, and it's just possible that because he sees himself responsible for the day to day running of the club that he isn't so singled mindedly obsessed with winning any more.
It's there in the body language, the worst one was the Southampton game....he should have been livid with the players....as i honestly think that was the worst performance i've seen with him as manager, there have been bigger more humiliating defeats.....but this took the biscuit because the players simply just weren't trying at all....they didn't seem to care and if the players don't seem to care, who is encouraging them to care?

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Wenger pre 2005 seemed to care about winning and losing, that was evident in his body language, that's gone for me, big defeats are like water off a ducks back.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

What he says and what he does don't tally. You can say you are deeply disappointed finishing last in a race because you are a fat bastard and then you can go and eat a pile of pizza. What does your disappointment count for then, because you are the author of your own downfall? Wenger says it hurts to lose, and then he avoids doing what it takes to win. His words and his sentiments shouldn't be accepted as any form of compensation for his failure to translate those words into action. All talk, no trousers.

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:goodpost: Hollow words from a man all too accepting of defeats, he's a beaten man and he's lost so much now that defeat no longer hurts like it once use to.

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Originally Posted by Özim

Wenger pre 2005 seemed to care about winning and losing, that was evident in his body language, that's gone for me, big defeats are like water off a ducks back.

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He has excuses for each and every one of those hammerings and he takes none of the responsibility on himself. Yes, he'll say the responsibility stops with management. But if he believed that then he'd take the steps necessary to correct the problems. Instead he doggedly reinforces the problems. Again, his words are the opposite of his actions. Either he lies to himself and convinces himself, or else he's just dishonest.