I've explained why elsewhere in the post. I'm not going to get into this discussion with you on this thread which has been mostly good debate.Originally Posted by Özim
I've explained why elsewhere in the post. I'm not going to get into this discussion with you on this thread which has been mostly good debate.
I've not seen it, but if you're referring to what he did 10+ years ago, that goodwill ran out a long time ago, right now this club is a shadow of what it use to be thanks to him, I preferred the club before he arrived, we have a big new stadium yes, but that's a cash cow for the owners, other clubs will be able to do the same as us without even cutting back on spending thanks to TV money, so looks like his plan wasn't best implemented.
Last edited by Özim; 12-08-2016 at 11:30 AM.
I can agree with much of that, not the respect thing. I believe you have to earn respect (which he certainly did in the early years), and then you even get a period where you can ride on the respect generated. But not forever. He's made big mistakes and he continues to make them. And it's very difficult to have respect for a guy who absolutely insists he's right and won't hear the opinions of others, yet over an extended period he's been shown to be quite wrong time and time again. There's a shocking arrogance there that is very difficult to respect. A stubbornness that exceeds all bounds of reasonableness. He's not even close to being the manager he used to be and his time was up years ago. A smart man would have bowed out on a high and taken on another project. He would have been great in some organisation capacity, a senior figure at FIFA or UEFA, using those principles and beliefs and stubbornness to stick it to Blatter or Platini on a daily basis. He'd have been the ultimate weapon to use against those corrupt bastards. But instead he's made Arsenal his kingdom. It's all about Arsene Wenger, nothing else is a priority. His club, his money, his rules, his decisions. Fine if you are a Ferguson and delivering sack-loads of trophies on a regular basis. Obnoxious otherwise, and toxic. Poisoning every aspect of the club.I think it's a myth that there are people who revere Wenger to the extent some people on here suppose. There may be some but you'll always get extremes of views in a large group of people. I think a lot of people still respect Wenger though. I certainly do. And that's why I will defend him at times, but only from the more extreme opinions. I certainly don't jump to his defence at every opportunity as some have suggested.
I am increasingly frustrated by his damn stubbornness in the transfer market. He's like some OAP grumbling about the price of things. Well yes, things are expensive and yes it is ridiculous but that's the modern game and if you want to compete you need to join in. He has to an extent with Ozil and Sanchez, for a while he was spending folding money. And I can see the logic in not signing more players of the level of Giroud or Welbeck - go big or go home - but we DO need to go big and, once again, he's failed to get his man despite making offers for the sort of players we need.
I don't agree the stadium project was a failure. I don't think we'd have been able to compete long term without doing the move. All the other big clubs have either expanded, moved or are looking to. The notable exceptions being Chelsea but with their other stream of income they haven't really needed to. I do think the timing of it was somewhat unfortunate though in that we did it at the time when the billionaires were having the most impact, there WAS a period of belt tightening in that era, I think Wenger did well during time, and by the time the financial pressures eased we had TV deals which almost wipe out the advantage the new stadium gives us. I don't think you can pin any of that on Wenger.
My problem with Wenger is he's now not making enough of our considerable resources and my problem with the club is that they don't care. It's simply not true that Wenger is under no pressure but he's not under enough. He keeps delivering top 4 and while that shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions it shouldn't be sniffed at either. It doesn't give much margin for error and other clubs have thrown a lot of money around trying to achieve it and failed to do so consistently. But with our resources now he isn't doing enough and the board don't care how we do so long as the finances are good. This is why removing Wenger, although necessary, is no silver bullet.
The last 3 years we:
Finished 4th and won the FA Cup
Finished 3rd and retained the FA Cup
Finished 2nd
If this all seems disappointing and under-achieving then it is a back-handed compliment to Wenger. Before he came along we were a big club but never expected to challenge consistently, historically we hadn't done so. He's got us in a position where we expect to be winning titles regularly and are set up financially to do so, he deserves credit for that.
I believe Wenger still wants us to succeed. He maybe takes a bit too much pride in the perennial top 4 finishes but I don't believe for one minute he doesn't want us to do more. It's increasingly clear that he's either unable or unwilling to do the things required to push on though. I don't think the idea of being self-sustainable is a bad thing in and of itself but we now just seem to be stockpiling money which benefits only the owner and board.
I just think football as a sport is broken. As NQ said in one of the Olympics threads, you see in the Olympics what sport should be about. These preening, cheating, diving multi-millionaires are no part of what I think of as sport. And the clubs (not just ours although we're one of the worst) endlessly see us as customers, not fans. They cynically use the fact that we can't go to the 'shop' down the road, it's the ultimate brand loyalty. You can walk out of the shop but you can't go elsewhere. I literally can't believe they get away with some things, like the ruse of changing their kits every year and people queue up to buy the incrementally different new shirt.
In brief: Wenger needs to go but I don't think it will make as much difference as some suppose with our board.
The club is broken in terms of what a football club should be and historically was, but we're a small part, well not that small, of a far bigger problem in the sport in general.
All started with Sky, if you ask me.
Yes it's true the club got a bit unlucky with the timing of events. But there's no such thing as forever in business. The environment changes and you survive by changing with it, adapting, taking advantage of the new terrain. You don't stand there shouting No, No, No and refusing to accept what has happened. You don't continue doing things in a manner that no longer suit the environment, not if you want to survive. Wenger is like a caveman suffering the coming ice age. Running around stark naked, offering up barbed comments to the advancing glaciers, telling all his caveman mates who are getting their extra furs together that all is well, it's warm, the shivering is voluntary and he likes it. To all around it's a pathetic sight. Embarrassing. Sad.
Embarrassing. Sad. Probably the best way to describe Wenger now.
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I'm with you, I can agree with a lot of things there, but not the respect thing, I have no respect left for him, not with the wya he behaves, it's both embarrassing and incredibly stupid to behave that way.
Like you said he's made the whole club about Arsenal, shipping out anyone that wouldn't two the line, in many ways he's tried to make himself indispensable thus protecting his position, he decides everything and is involved in things no other manager is, he's even convinced fans that life without him will be too hard to face, so he's been clever in that sense.
The arrogance of the man though, he feels untouchable and basically things he can say and do whatever he wants, for me pound to pound the worst manager out there all things considered due to everything that comes with his tenure, should have moved on many years ago, he may have got a nice send off thanking him then, not now though, he's pushed it too far and been too obnoxious and arrogant about the he'll decide what does and doesn't happen.
I cannot fathom how he can still be respected despite his behaviour, like you said respect has to be earned, people slate Mourinho and yes he's in your face and says and does some awful and embarrassing things (but at least he backs it up by winning), but at least he's up front about it, this guy is just the same, no worse but in a much sneakier/underhand way that seems to fly right over some fans head.
Last edited by Özim; 12-08-2016 at 11:55 AM.
Should have had a wage cap long ago.
Should have implemented financial fair play.
TV Money and dodgy billionaire overseas owners with little interest in the game itself have killed it. Give the clubs back to the fans to own or at least part-own to a good degree.
Do I think Wenger should have been replaced a while back, yes, but at least the recent FA cup wins certainly brought the smile back to us fans.
He has perhaps outstayed his welcome.... and his ability to miss out on the final piece of the jigsaw doesn't seem to be ending anytime soon.
He has perhaps lost a lot of respect 50% of fans once held for him, but no one can deny how he is still respected in the game by the other half of our fan base and the players.
Whether or not you respect him, doesn't really matter to be honest...what does matter is the game itself. Arsenal is not the only broken club. Liverpool fans protested well about the ticket prices and it's about time every fan base in the premierleague follows suit. There should be protests every game about the ticket prices that have priced us out of the game we love. Arsenal isn't broken. Football is.
“Other clubs never came into my thoughts once I knew Arsenal wanted to sign me.” Dennis Bergkamp
"I started clapping myself until I realized that i was sunderland's manager". Peter Reid
"Happy those, who can remain at Highbury." Jane Austen, Emma
I'm new to this forum and just finding out where people stand on certain issues. On another forum I was on years ago in the late noughties, other poster were saying Wenger should leave as he's dragging the club down. Well I was one of those who bought into the 'building a new stadium so we can compete' BS. Because now we can spend some money, apart form Ozil and Sanchez, we still don't. I think they were just token buys to keep the fans happy, because if they were serious about competing properly for the title, those two would have been added to.
Wenger was great when he first came, no doubt about it, but Abramovich's money took away everything that Wenger had built. As others have said, he didn't move with the times. It rankles him to pay big money for players. It rankles with everyone, but that is the market and it isn't going to change any time soon. I keep hoping the Premier League will eat itself up and go back to some semblance of what we perceive as 'normal', but it is getting worse, especially with the stupid money coming in from the TV rights. It's just a shame the fans don't benefit from all of that money by reduced ticket prices. All we do is line the pockets of the owners, the players and their agents.
I think it is time for Wenger to go. Do I respect him? I feel sorry for him more than anything, and angry when we take a beating because he has no nous of how to beat the big teams.
Should have genuinely representative government.
Should have equality under the law.
Should have fewer or no rights abuses against human beings and a removal of human rights from corporations.
Should have a value based monetary system.
Should have contractual obligations enforced under law in an equitable manner that shows consideration to all parties.
Should have so many things in the wider society before an industry within that society can hope to be reformed.
Like most corporate ventures, the company likes to enjoy all the rights and benefits afforded by the society and yet it won't meet its own obligations and is actually applauded for placing profit above all else. The shareholder is like a protected species with rights that are inviolable. The deep, deep sickness in society has found the exploit points in sport and latched on. Arsenal is certainly broken, corrupted by the whores to profit who know nothing or care nothing of sport. And yes, all clubs have gone or are going that way. But there's something particularly appalling about the way Arsenal goes about its business. The same tawdry motives but with the arrogance to suggest the club is a paragon in terms of how things should be managed and how the game should be played. What nonsense. We are the epitome of everything that has gone missing from the game over the years since Wenger led a team to an unbeaten season, playing joyous football in the process. Today, if you want to see the prefect example of what football should not be - look at Arsenal.
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I'm never going to stop respecting him because he's provided me with possibly the happiest moments I'll ever have as an Arsenal fan, that will always be appreciated.
His head is completely buried in the sand though, it's quite sad seeing the level of resentment towards him now but you can't say it's undeserved. He is deluded if he thinks he can succeed without dipping in to the clubs considerable resources, not now our rivals are getting their houses in order.
Well, I agree. And this is why I've lost it with Wenger. I genuinely don't think many other managers in the world could have kept the ship so steady and kept us in the top 4 during the stadium move. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from winning the title in 2008 and I honestly think had the billionaires not stuck their beaks in Wenger's record would look far more impressive. But the shackles have come off now financially, we signed Ozil and then Sanchez, won a couple of trophies. All we need to do was keep that going, build momentum. Wenger has always been guilty of this, resting on his laurels when we needed to push on. And that's why I have come to the conclusion he should go. But come on, we did finish 2nd last year. Somewhat fortuitously but still, it's not a slow, sad decline a la Clough who ended up taking Forest down in the end. With our board I'm not convinced that changing manager is a silver bullet. At least Wenger cares how we do, he may not be able to do anything about it but our failings clearly hurt him. They don't hurt the board one bit, the money keeps rolling in and they couldn't give a monkeys. People like that and Sky are the real enemies of football as a sport.
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