NahQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
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NahQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
It's hard to imagine anyone could have accurately predicted just how badly this guy would fuck things up. And he just keeps on going, as his crazed team selection showed us on Sunday. What the next 10 years under this lunatic will bring, I get the feeling none of us will be able to predict how bad it will be this time either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Not based on yesterday's performance of course. And okay, I'll put Aguero on that list too. But that's all I'll concede. Most of these modern players aren't fit to lace the boots of those who went before them. Hyped beyond all reason.Quote:
Originally Posted by mastermind84
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vieira
You hardly have to be King Soloman for one of two outcomes to eventually become true after multiple years of whining & bitching about it.
Just pointing out that whilst many were being positive and saw light at the end of the tunnel when certain things happened over the years, to be fair to Zimm, he was the head honcho in predicting pretty much everything that's happened, to the extent it has happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by The Emirates Gallactico
Not really. He has been consistent but if you're consistent about something where fortunes often fluctuate, as they tend to in football over the long term, then at some point you will probably be "right". That doesn't mean you were right all along.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vieira
If I spent the last 10 years saying "there's no way interest rates are going to stay this low, they're definitely going to rise" then it would be a bit rich of me to pat myself on the back this month when they finally did and it would be weird of others to declare me a wise sage who tried to warn us all.
:sulk: I want my credit, goddamnit! I've always said Wenger and the Board are one and the same. He's hid behind the no money excuse, a poor tactician and we're now seeing the results now that he's been given money.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vieira
Oh...and welcome back Cripps! :bow:
I thought money was always overplayed as a factor. In my mind we should have won the league in 2008, it was inexcusable not to have.
Equally should have won the league in 2016 when we spent next to nothing
People were claiming all kinds of things about how we would decline under Wenger, plenty said we'd slip into mid-table. Last season was our worst finish under Wenger and even then we only missed out on 4th place by 2 points and we won the FA Cup.
The doom-mongers haven't exactly been vindicated, they said we'd be in mid-table years ago and that hasn't happened.
The club is, in theory, pretty well positioned for success right now. But Wenger is a spent force and we have a board who don't care so long as the money keeps rolling in.
Replacing Wenger would at least be different and right now that in itself would be a good thing, but with our board I don't see that as the silver bullet.
Hence why I said......Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
Quote:
He's hid behind the no money excuse
All fair points, it's not too difficult to predict one of two outcomes over an extended time.
In the normal world, as opposed to Hogwarts and the Emirates.
A little bit of sleep and Letters is right back on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
"Positioned for success"
Somebody tell Ivan, he'll want that one.
Money has been a factor. Look at where the titles have ended up. And don't pull Leicester out of your arse, what they did was remarkable but they didn't repeat it. In general the biggest prizes end up at the clubs with the biggest resources. Chelsea and City were nowhere before the billionaires took over. But that doesn't mitigate all the failures over the last 10 years and the main issue is right now we do have the resources to compete and we are still failing to.
Now Leicester need to repeat it before Arsene can be held accountable.
:haha:
Was it not said that Wenger was not said that Wenger had way more influence over the Board that you guys were making out?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Was it not said that he was a poor tactician?
Was it not said that he’d not be able to handle star players with egos because of his soft man management, hence why he goes for less known players?
Was it not said that he’d still fuck things up even if he had money to spend?
Was it not said that he’s he puts the interest of Board over the interest of the Arsenal fans?
A lot has been said over the years and goes way beyond the results and us dropping down the table.
Less WUM, more debate. If you disagree then explain why. You accuse me of coming into threads and having a dig and then you do it here. If you have something to say then say it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
We have a squad which finished 5th last year and that was under Wenger who you constantly deride, you don't think they could do better under a different manager?
We have the resources to compete financially with most clubs and the stadium and global fanbase to sustain that. As a club we could succeed if we had the right manager and board.
We don't, but we could.
Lucky guesses.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
Fuck off! :lol: Now you want a serious debate and less WUM!Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Lazy...Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
https://www.veteranstoday.com/wp-con...zard-of-oz.jpg
You want me to explain why Arsenal is not positioned for success?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Wenger was thrown under a bus, apparently.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
Excuse after excuse rattled off for him back then. All to mask his flawed approach where the seeds were planted 10 years ago and now those plants are bearing fruit.
Somebody changed the goalposts on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men."Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
A little bit both. But I posted something sensible enough.
If people are accusing me of dropping in to sensible conversations and having a dig (which I'm not saying I ever have) then it's a bit rich for those people to then do the same thing and post lazy straw man arguments.
Well, I've mentioned our board and manager which I see as "blockers" to success. And that is, admittedly, a bit problem. But we have the things I mentioned going for us, most clubs don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Without a billionaire taking them over very few clubs have the chance to succeed that we potentially do. If you disagree then yes, explain why.
We had all the sensible conversations years back. Remember? And nothing has changed since. So people can maybe be excused for laughing when the same old crap comes up again. Poor old Wenger. Had 200 million to spend and all he got was Xhaka and a lousy T-shirt.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The guy has fucked-up at every turn. How long does history have to be before we can call it the official record?
We have billionaires that have taken us over.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Yes, lots has been said, some right, some wrong. But don't cherry pick a few right ones and declare those who said them wise seers, ignoring all the things they said that were wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
Oh, and literally no-one ever thought Wenger was a good tactician :lol:
:lol: True. But you know what I meant :sulk:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Really? I remember Flavs having a go at me for saying that some years back and few others chiming in to disagree with me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Of course you're not going to admit he was right all along, cause that would mean you were wrong! And that can't happen can it Arsene Letters! :haha:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think the only sensible conclusion is that
Money prevented us from competing every season
Wenger prevented us from competing any season
Even in the 07/08 season which I maintain we should have won, didn’t compete past February due to winning 1 game in 8 between February and April.
Going that far back I supported Wenger as manager then, but still held him not money responsible for that capitulation.
I'd agree with that. But I don't think it was a gimme that Wenger+Money would still fail. And those pretending they knew that all along, most of us were encouraged by the first FA Cup and hoped we would push on.
I should add that a lot of Wenger's failings have always been there.
He was never a good tactician. He was never a good motivator. He never signed the right players after we'd been successful (hence never retaining the title).
When you've got better, fitter players than everyone else and a strong captain it masks a lot of that, but those things were always there, looking back.
Here we go:lol: the positive spin begins:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Can't have a thread turning into pure hate towards your messiah can we now! :haha:
There were so many. It can be excused because we didn’t have much information back then but in light of what we see today, I look back at the situation with RVP and wonder why we sold to Utd instead of holding on to him. There is no way we needed the money that badly considering we signed new sponsorship deals the season after.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
Best post on here tbhQuote:
Originally Posted by Delusions of Grandeur
The latest one is he needs to stay because he's the only one that cares :lol: suppose they have to cling onto anything they can :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
'Hope we push on' doesn't mean we were convinced we'd push on. You confuse the two. I hope we win every single game but that doesn't mean I'm convinced we'll do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I couldn’t see any reason to believe he would progress with money
I didn’t back the three years between 2014 and 2017. However I conceded that despite disappointments and frustrations he had kept us stable during the time and it was a reward for that to say here’s some money you have three years to give us some indication of progress.
Now would clubs like city, Chelsea or United been so generous?. No but there it is
Whilst I didnt support it I think there was some justification for that contract in 2014. There is absolutely none now.
Agree with that conclusion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
2008 and 2016 we definitely should have got closer. I’d also throw in 2011 and 2014. 2011 we fell apart after the League Cup final defeat only winning something like 2 out of 10 games and in 2014 we spent the most amount of days in 1st only to somehow contrive to finish 4th.
All those collapses came at different stages of Wenger’s tenure, with or without money he has struggled since the league became more competitive.
If Wenger was never a good tactician, if he was never a good motivator, and if it's a gimme he'd fail in the transfer market despite having money...
Who developed the best attacking football this country has seen?
Who kept the team firing through an unbeaten season?
Who signed Henry, Vieira, Overmars, Petit, Henry, Pires?
I think you have hit on something here Letters. Which leads on to a more interesting question. Wenger's real legacy. Who was responsible for the great success we had at the turn of the century, and if it was Wenger, how can he possibly have abandoned everything and laboured so hard to produce this absolute shit show, some of the most boring football ever seen, some of the least ambitious and a team packed with expensive dross? He signed Sanogo instead of Mbappe.
My theory so far is, his early legacy remains intact but he had a mental breakdown. If he carries on, some people might not be so kind in their judgement.