Arsenal 2-2 Fulham Player ratings and Match reaction

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Spot on.

I was about to reply to that part of his post, but thankfully your response assures me that I wasn't watching a different game.

Also, despite actively sabotaging Trossard by playing him out of position, we could still see his impact as the pace of the 1st half is the fastest we've played all season and he did manage to create some of the best chances in the whole game from the wing (have we forgotten Saka's pitiful header, though if I remember correctly Agent Kai was jumping infront of him like some newly plucked chicken!).

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People really wanting trossard in CM??

Nah, not sure about that, man.

Get him out wide for one of Martinelli or Saka. I don't even care which one, at this point. It's not working for either and they need to know they're not undroppable.

Viera must've played himself into a start. That's as good a sub appearneces as you'll see all season. Not just his output but I really liked how assertive he was, taking set pieces off people. You can tell the other players, who see him in training every day hold him in high regard, even if he hasn't consistently shown it. Plus, what kind of message does it send to the fringe players that when your chance comes you can take it then still be on the bench??

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

I have to say I disagree that defending is our main problem, it’s goal scoring. I think it shows what a completely pointless stat XG is if our XG is higher than the first three games of last season (which it apparently is) but when you have nine goals scored last season, and five scored this season (two of them penalties) then it shows that XG is not a particularly great indicator, it’s based on how attacking moves have led to goals based on past instances but the problem is a) if the players themselves aren’t taken the shots on which they aren’t and b) if our attacking moves have become predictable…then our high XG gives a misleading indicator of our attacking potency.

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I think you are interpreting the XG concept wrong. Its more about efficiency, and if our XG in the last few games was higher than last season then it is clear that we are on a serious downward spiral, since we scored less goals compared to the same period last season.

Lets look at Saturday's game for example, XG suggests we should have at least scored 3 goals, the penalty is almost an XG score of 1, the next best chance would probably be the Saka header I mentioned earlier, Nketiah's goal and Havertz defensive Karate Kick were probably 0.4ish x 2. So already we practically have 3.

Fulham had an XG of 0.55, and lets face it, they had no business scoring their first goal and even their second goal had all our defenders in place. So, they outperformed their XG which is what all decent teams do.

In fact if you are a betting man like me you'll know that most decent teams outperform their XG by *2. Athletico recently beat Vallecano 7-0 away, and their XG was just a bit higher than us on Saturday @ 3.6, so even without watching the highlights I know I should expect some long range shots and pretty good goals; or some horrendous defensive errors.

In short, our current XG (for and against us) just shows we are underperforming by not utilising easy chances, and also allowing defensive errors to cost us.

I think this defines what we are currently witnessing.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

It’s a valid question, as to whether there is someone better out there who can say. But I think it’s not so much that we need a better coach, it’s a coach who will just go back to basics, stop trying to be too clever and do what needs to be done.

We could bring Emery back for that, or the Wop at Brighton.

When I asked you the question I foolishly assumed that where we were that season meant that Arteta had moved beyond silly behaviour that was costing us. So a better coach now becomes anyone who a) isn’t putting square pegs in round holes and b) identifies signings in positions where we need them

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On a lighter note, good to see you making some personal progress.

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Originally Posted by mandela8

People really wanting trossard in CM??

Nah, not sure about that, man.

Get him out wide for one of Martinelli or Saka. I don't even care which one, at this point. It's not working for either and they need to know they're not undroppable.

Viera must've played himself into a start. That's as good a sub appearneces as you'll see all season. Not just his output but I really liked how assertive he was, taking set pieces off people. You can tell the other players, who see him in training every day hold him in high regard, even if he hasn't consistently shown it. Plus, what kind of message does it send to the fringe players that when your chance comes you can take it then still be on the bench??

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My bad, it was the first part of his post I'm fully behind. In my mind their is little doubt that his best position is the left wing. At a time I did think we could play him in the Xhaka role, but with the way we play under Arteta I am not that sure anymore.

Anyway I believe on current form he should be starting over Martinelli.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

My bad, it was the first part of his post I'm fully behind. In my mind their is little doubt that his best position is the left wing. At a time I did think we could play him in the Xhaka role, but with the way we play under Arteta I am not that sure anymore.

Anyway I believe on current form he should be starting over Martinelli.

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Fair enough i think Trossard can do a better job than Havertz in the 8 position (though i get that's not hard, so could a lamppost) but agree ideally he's on the wing - I remain a big fan of Martinelli and still think he doesn't get given the ball enough but sure I've no objection to Trossard being started instead of Martinelli sometimes, but on no account should Havertz be starting

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Fair enough i think Trossard can do a better job than Havertz in the 8 position (though i get that's not hard, so could a lamppost) but agree ideally he's on the wing - I remain a big fan of Martinelli and still think he doesn't get given the ball enough but sure I've no objection to Trossard being started instead of Martinelli sometimes, but on no account should Havertz be starting

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That’s where I disagree, for sure I wouldn’t have him in the no8 role but neither Nketiah or Jesus can play in the lone striker role and they can’t play together. So my feeling is to drop Odegaard and play Havertz as a roaming second striker.

No 8 role for United? Vieira not good enough defensively so thinking Partey in that role and Jorginho in the no6 role

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

That’s where I disagree, for sure I wouldn’t have him in the no8 role but neither Nketiah or Jesus can play in the lone striker role and they can’t play together. So my feeling is to drop Odegaard and play Havertz as a roaming second striker.

No 8 role for United? Vieira not good enough defensively so thinking Partey in that role and Jorginho in the no6 role

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You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc

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Originally Posted by Mac76

You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc

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Are you my brother in disguise?. He doesn’t like the fact that Ive stated Caicedo is miles better than Rice, so has decided to write Caicedo off based on his awful debut in the West Ham game. As I’ve said Havertz has been awful, I don’t think he is…well he is as a number 8

Yes I saw him on Saturday and he was awful. How many times do I have to explain to you, I still think he could be a very useful player for us played in the correct position…you don’t.

He’s not playing in midfield he’d be playing in the hole, behind the striker. I don’t see that as a midfield position.

I’ve explained why I think we’d be better off playing him, you don’t have to agree but I think given the unbelievable decision not to sign a striker, it’s best to play him alongside (or more importantly behind) Nketiah.

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Originally Posted by mandela8

Nice reasoned post, mate.

Couple of issues...which kinda tie into one.

I wanted Trossard to play. I think he's comfortably the best winger we have at the club and can offer a consistency that the younger players demonstrably can't. I didn't for one second want him playing as a striker though ha that's just typical of Arteta, playing someone out of position.

This kinda plays into the wider issue of us scoring goals. It's quite the paradox that we actually score a lot of goals without ever really looking like we're going to score.

There's just issues up there for me. Saka cutting inside almost Everytime, slowing the play down (he's actually quite successful when he gets to the byeline anaw). Martinelli just being isolated completely and the lack of a clinical striker.

I think defending is largely fine...although there's a high prevalence of individual errors.

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Yes - I get what you and HCZ are saying about scoring, but at the end of the day we have scored 5 in 3 games which is no disaster going forwards. 2 pels yes - but they all count. Last season was (I think) our best ever for goals scored in the EPL - and that was without our first striker for half the season. We have the same attacking personnel (almost) as we had, and that is why I am not greatly concerned about our play going forwards. It's our profligacy in front of goal that I have more of an issue with - we are creating the chances - as the stats bear out.

But in defence - we have now had many months of shooting ourselves in the foot, and particulary at home we are far too easy to score against. Arteta has exacerbated this by disrupting our back 4. I'm all for being unpredictable but hs experimentation so far this season has affected the defensive stability that is key to any success. For me, the sheer number of individual errors we make are worrying because they point to systemic or mentality failings - and my concern is that by his insistence on having Swiss army knife players the manager is neglecting key building blocks such as having at least some specialist players in certain positions along the spine of the team.

As to all the comments regarding Trossard - fair enough - and on reflection I agree that it was contrary to play arguably our best player in pre season out of the position he had performed so well in.

I guess that the debate re Arteta depends upon how long we are prepared to give him using unconventional methods. As I say I predicted some turbulence so I am prepared to wait to see if things click. One thing I am encouraged about is that his subs have largely been spot on this season - that suggests he is aware of the issues that are frustrating fans and can see how to solve them in game. I think that for all of us - Citeh is messing with our heads - as utter perfection is required in every game if we are to compete. Our other rivals are hardly showing huge consistency in their approaches - late goals notwithstanding.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

You clearly didn't see Havertz' performance on Saturday - it was beyond awful and that includes when he had opportunities to score - he's no good to us in any position - Eddie is doing better than Havertz would and while I've been a big critic of his think he deserves to start - Havertz cannot justify a further start in midfield when we have players like Trossard, Vieira etc

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Havertz may come good - I don't think its fair to write him off just yet. But starting him against Manure would be a big mistake IMO.