Arsenal 2-2 Fulham Player ratings and Match reaction

[HCZ_Reborn]

Because of the clear improvement from the previous season. The previous season we'd thrown away a Top 4 finish. Last season for me it was Top 4 or bust. I didn't expect a title challenge, nor did you, nor did anyone.


That is a not the only measure of a successful season. I mean, ultimately we want to be winning trophies, obviously. But you also want to be seeing a clear direction of travel in terms of improvement.
If we'd won the league cup and finished mid-table no-one would have attended the open top bus parade.


Well of course it does. It's a pretty good metric of where you are as a team.



Well sure, and if we tank under Arteta this season then he should be sacked. I just think it's a bit early to be calling it yet, although I agree with some of your concerns.
I think a difference between us is you think he should be sacked because of the mess that you believe will unfold this season, I think we should at least wait to see as 3 games isn't really sufficient to know.
The board have backed him, he has to deliver. I hope you're wrong about how this season will go. I guess you hope you're wrong too?

Again you fail to make a distinction between good will and given the season. As I say last season entitled him to no goodwill, nor does it entitle him to see out this season if he makes a bodge of it.

I want him gone come what May, and I say come what may because no one who isn’t delusional thinks we will be champions and I think short of finishing a couple of points behind City after a sustained title challenge…a title or pushing all the way should be what we should be expecting given what he’s spent. That no one expects it, is a) down to the fact that he hasn’t especially spent well and b) no one who should be taken seriously actually rates him that highly.

Do I want us losing games to get rid of him? No, and I hope he’s gone long before it gets to me having to make such a consideration. But it will take us winning the title for me to want him to stay, and it’s not going to happen.

I did concede that last season exceeded our expectations from the start of the season, even though the ending was a total burn out fuckface. But I think that’s as much to do with not expecting Liverpool and Spurs to drop off as much as they did.

The goals we scored and games we won were enjoyable, but that should be where we are continually, not as a one off.

[Letters]

Again you fail to make a distinction between good will and given the season.

I do not understand this sentence.

As I say last season entitled him to no goodwill

Well, you can keep saying that if you like but
a) It's subjective and
b) There was such clear improvement from the previous season, to sack a manager after such a season would be madness.
He certainly earned the right to try again this year.

nor does it entitle him to see out this season if he makes a bodge of it.

Well of course. Managers live or die by results and you're only as good as your last season. Last year showed clear progress, we've invested heavily in the summer so the board have backed him. He has to deliver.

I want him gone come what May, and I say come what may because no one who isn’t delusional thinks we will be champions and I think short of finishing a couple of points behind City after a sustained title challenge…a title or pushing all the way should be what we should be expecting given what he’s spent. That no one expects it, is a) down to the fact that he hasn’t especially spent well and b) no one who should be taken seriously actually rates him that highly.

I think on balance of probabilities you are most likely correct. But to be definitive after 3 games is premature.

[HCZ_Reborn]

I do not understand this sentence.


Well, you can keep saying that if you like but
a) It's subjective and
b) There was such clear improvement from the previous season, to sack a manager after such a season would be madness.
He certainly earned the right to try again this year.


Well of course. Managers live or die by results and you're only as good as your last season. Last year showed clear progress, we've invested heavily in the summer so the board have backed him. He has to deliver.


I think on balance of probabilities you are most likely correct. But to be definitive after 3 games is premature.

Being allowed to start this season as coach is different from having good will. Good will suggests that the manager is in good standing and is given time. If we’d won the league last season I’d be far less concerned with his experimenting because he’d earned himself the time to change things about even if I didn’t agree with those changes. Where as what last season earnt him was a chance to build on last season but it was predicated on him doing the right things in the transfer window which he clearly didn’t do.

My personal preference would be to sack him now, and have a new guy in charge ready for the January transfer window, im not suggesting for a second that’s a realistic aspiration…however if things go as badly as I think they could…he may be gone before the next window.

[IBK]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

[HCZ_Reborn]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

I have to say I disagree that defending is our main problem, it’s goal scoring. I think it shows what a completely pointless stat XG is if our XG is higher than the first three games of last season (which it apparently is) but when you have nine goals scored last season, and five scored this season (two of them penalties) then it shows that XG is not a particularly great indicator, it’s based on how attacking moves have led to goals based on past instances but the problem is a) if the players themselves aren’t taken the shots on which they aren’t and b) if our attacking moves have become predictable…then our high XG gives a misleading indicator of our attacking potency.

Defence is a concern but I think the goals we concede are a mixture of systemic issues….we concede goals at home because of the tendency to push up, and Gabriel who though a great defender isn’t as comfortable on the ball to push forward is being dropped in favour of white and Saliba and individual errors…there is a high tendency for teams to break on us with pace where under pressing we have a tendency to play casual passes that are seized upon. Partey as much as I rate him is often guilty of this, but the two offenders on Saturday were Saka for the first goal, and Zinchenko for the second.

In terms of winning aerial battles, interceptions etc…the defending is decent. But the problem is we either have defensive midfielders or attacking midfielders and we don’t have the player that links this up. As much as he gave me a headache, Xhaka was this player last season but now we are putting Havertz in that role and despite his claim that central midfield is his preferred position (I even understand he did play there for Bayer Leverkusen) it’s clear that it’s not a role he can play in the premier league where you are not given the time or space that he seems to need.

His hold up play and his aerial ability means that I would play him as alternating between in the hole and as a second striker especially given Odegaard has not had the most auspicious start to the season. Havertz clearly played better in a more offensive role against Manchester City.

My fervour for wanting Arteta gone is because this season and the pre season before it reminds me of all his worst habbits as a coach - namely being Galaxy brained and playing systems the players cannot adapt to, that and signing players who don’t fit well with us…a few years ago it was Willian and this season Havertz. And I feel we’ve spent too much money (something I think is going to bite us very hard, very soon) for us to humour a coach who seems to take far too long to acknowledge what he’s getting wrong.

[Mac76]

Being allowed to start this season as coach is different from having good will. Good will suggests that the manager is in good standing and is given time. If we’d won the league last season I’d be far less concerned with his experimenting because he’d earned himself the time to change things about even if I didn’t agree with those changes. Where as what last season earnt him was a chance to build on last season but it was predicated on him doing the right things in the transfer window which he clearly didn’t do.

My personal preference would be to sack him now, and have a new guy in charge ready for the January transfer window, im not suggesting for a second that’s a realistic aspiration…however if things go as badly as I think they could…he may be gone before the next window.

Ok, so I agree but feel obliged to throw your own question back at you, aimed at me when I said he should go at the end of last season: with whom would you replace him?

[Mac76]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

Where you say "The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong"

We wanted him to play but not as a striker, he's better playing around a central striker, so removing Eddie, who is actually showing some good form, is exactly what Arteta shouldn't have done, Trossard should have been in for Havertz - and it should certainly have been Havertz who was subbed ahead of Trossard at HT

[HCZ_Reborn]

Ok, so I agree but feel obliged to throw your own question back at you, aimed at me when I said he should go at the end of last season: with whom would you replace him?

It’s a valid question, as to whether there is someone better out there who can say. But I think it’s not so much that we need a better coach, it’s a coach who will just go back to basics, stop trying to be too clever and do what needs to be done.

We could bring Emery back for that, or the Wop at Brighton.

When I asked you the question I foolishly assumed that where we were that season meant that Arteta had moved beyond silly behaviour that was costing us. So a better coach now becomes anyone who a) isn’t putting square pegs in round holes and b) identifies signings in positions where we need them

[mandela8]

My tuppence worth...

First, its obvious that too many changes to the team are impacting our cohesion. We stuttered in pre-season, and this is carrying over. Our main issue is conceding goals, and its undoubtedly the case that disrupting our back four - and in particular playing Partey at RB; chopping and changing LBs and leaving Big Gabby on the bench has exacerbated a trend that was well in evidence at the end of last season. Gabby is a real worry - IMO we win Saturday's game if he was on the pitch.

Everyone knows that I am an Arteta defender, but it seems to me that he is sacrificing the team on the altar of Havertz. I would like to see Rice at 8 and Partey back anchoring the MF. I think that the manager has approached our home games so far thinking that they would be easy, and believeing that he can experiment and still take the 3 points. I think that this has transmitted itself to the players and there is no excuse for us conceding within a minute for the third time this year.

We have criticised Arteta for being too galaxy brained in the past - and it seems that this is happening so far this season.

But...in the interests of balance as we saw last season, it's a marathon not a sprint. But for 2 individual errors we would have maximum points so far and I am not going to complain about 'pubbing' teams. The great Citeh did this on the weekend against arguably the weakest team in the league, and the likes of Maunure and Liverpool have done the same. While our manager is stubborn and we can't see what he sees in Havertz, I am not going to write the player off after 3 games.

I do have concerns about the level of angst that Gooners are showing. I haven't been to any home games yet, but I am told that the Emirates is jittery and this is not going to help our team. I respect others' opinions but we exceded expectations last season, and being beaten to the title by probably the best team in world football is not a reason to want shot of Arteta. The teams stats - particularly Xg - are very good this season, and I do not subsrcibe to the view that we are lacking going forwards. We are not as efficient in front of goal as I would like, but we are making chances. The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong.

If we still look this disorganised at Xmas then my opinion will change but for now I will remember that I anticipated some teething problems as this team beds in and will try to remain balanced rather than throwing my toys out of the pram. Early days...

Nice reasoned post, mate.

Couple of issues...which kinda tie into one.

I wanted Trossard to play. I think he's comfortably the best winger we have at the club and can offer a consistency that the younger players demonstrably can't. I didn't for one second want him playing as a striker though ha that's just typical of Arteta, playing someone out of position.

This kinda plays into the wider issue of us scoring goals. It's quite the paradox that we actually score a lot of goals without ever really looking like we're going to score.

There's just issues up there for me. Saka cutting inside almost Everytime, slowing the play down (he's actually quite successful when he gets to the byeline anaw). Martinelli just being isolated completely and the lack of a clinical striker.

I think defending is largely fine...although there's a high prevalence of individual errors.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

Where you say "The clamour for Trossard to start last weekend looked misplaced given the team's first half performance and shows that we fans can get it wrong"

We wanted him to play but not as a striker, he's better playing around a central striker, so removing Eddie, who is actually showing some good form, is exactly what Arteta shouldn't have done, Trossard should have been in for Havertz - and it should certainly have been Havertz who was subbed ahead of Trossard at HT

Spot on.

I was about to reply to that part of his post, but thankfully your response assures me that I wasn't watching a different game.

Also, despite actively sabotaging Trossard by playing him out of position, we could still see his impact as the pace of the 1st half is the fastest we've played all season and he did manage to create some of the best chances in the whole game from the wing (have we forgotten Saka's pitiful header, though if I remember correctly Agent Kai was jumping infront of him like some newly plucked chicken!).