When will Arteta be sacked by

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there

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The point is for the last few seasons we've barely been second class. Let's get there before we upgrade to 1st class.
The direction of travel is the important thing to me. Most of us see improvement this season, not just in results but in the way the team feels more cohesive. They look like they're playing for each other. That might not translate in to top 4 this year, but we are in the conversation this year where last year we weren't. If Arteta doesn't improve us more next season then fine, we should look elsewhere. I'm not sure he's the man to take on City and Liverpool. But, for now, there's progress from where we've come from. That's enough, for now.

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Originally Posted by Letters

The point is for the last few seasons we've barely been second class. Let's get there before we upgrade to 1st class.
The direction of travel is the important thing to me. Most of us see improvement this season, not just in results but in the way the team feels more cohesive. They look like they're playing for each other. That might not translate in to top 4 this year, but we are in the conversation this year where last year we weren't. If Arteta doesn't improve us more next season then fine, we should look elsewhere. I'm not sure he's the man to take on City and Liverpool. But, for now, there's progress from where we've come from. That's enough, for now.

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This. Plus re taking on Citeh and Liverpool - if we do wish to 'upgrade' a manager in due course to push higher, then we ned to do so from a solid base that a so-called 'top manager' can build from - much like the base that Klopp had to work from. It is clear that this is what the club is now trying to schieve - to build a solid base of talented youngsters not yet in their prime that can then push again.

Re Globalgunner's comment - I don't think anyone is saying that they accept permanently being 2nd class but we have no choice but to accept the reality that since 2016 at least we have been drifitng in terms of where we want to be. Its one thing having so-called ambition, quite another realising that ambition. We have to accept also that we are simply not in a position simply to buy success like Citeh and the Chavs have been - and we are a few years behind the likes of Liverpool. in these circumstances seeking to attain 4th place first before trying to push on is not a lack of ambition, it is common sense.

The reality is that no one is getting near City and Liverpool because they’re 2 of the best teams in the world and arguably 2 of the best teams the Premier League has ever seen. We all have to wait for Pep or Klopp to bugger off before anything changes there.

There’s levels to this thing and while lowering expectations doesn’t sit well, there needs to be some dose of reality. 4th isn’t everything but it’s a starting block for us.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

The reality is that no one is getting near City and Liverpool because they’re 2 of the best teams in the world and arguably 2 of the best teams the Premier League has ever seen.

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I was reminded the other day how insane Liverpool's form was just before the pandemic break.
P29 W27 D1 L1 :wacko:
Mental

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

When your reality is being 2nd class, accepting it and even justifying it well...thats the nub of the problem right there

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We are in the chasing group, as others have said Citeh and Liverpool are by some distance the best teams in the division if not Europe. Sure we need to improve and Monday night was probably a bit of a reality check for us all, but we are a top 4 challenger and not miles behind the likes of Chelsea.

We have improved a fair bit this Season, Monday's result doesn't change that. Whether we have improved enough to clinch a CL Spot remains to be seen, but even if we do make CL we are likely to be one of the weakest teams in it anyway.

I’m not too worried about the performance on Monday - wasn’t expecting it with the run we’ve been on, but by the same token the fact that it can happen doesn’t surprise me either. Every now and then we are going to have an Everton game in us - that’s just the reality of working with a young squad. They have the talent, but they don’t yet have the experience to assess what’s coming and get themselves mentally set for different situations.

Looking back on our bad results this year, it’s usually being unprepared that’s caught us out - late Monday night kick offs causing us to lose a bit of focus, torrential rain at Brighton, the home crowds suddenly roaring to life at OT and Anfield after a couple of incidents they didn’t like, even stupid things like not testing the length of the grass at Burnley during the warm up. That sort of thing. On Monday I think it was a simple case of having our momentum broken up by the international break, our young players not yet knowing how to regroup quickly after being away (and maybe not being used to all the travel), and again having to play after everyone else late Monday evening.

On the plus side, though, whilst we still have the odd game like this in us, we’re also capable of going on 5/6/7 game winning streaks and holding our nerve in crunch games when we’re on a roll - 10 wins in our last 13 games is pretty fucking good form, tbf.

No, I’m not really that concerned about Monday’s performance - it’s the injuries that have me sweating! Partey is pretty much doing the job of two men in our new formation and is one of two ‘fixed’ positions in the team that everyone else plays off, so he’s going to be a huge loss if he’s out for a stretch. And losing Tierney on top of Tomi means that we’re left with two gung-ho fullbacks who can’t defend! For a team that’s built around structural discipline and fluidity, this could really hurt. Could really do with Tomi coming back - that would at least give us options to play with.

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

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I am also worried.

And massively agree about the watershed moment. a heavy defeat and a mounting injury list. When have we seen this before? (like every bloody season) :sarcy:

Yes, improvements have been made, however, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, Spurs (because they will most likely get top four) and Newcastle will be strentghening in the summer and will push us down the pecking order for next season.

We have no devine right to be up there, but it would be nice. ;)

I'm worried too. More about the injuries than the performance on Monday, we've had those before and bounced back. But injuries were always a risk with a squad this thin, it looks like it's going to come back to bite us :(

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Originally Posted by Letters

I'm worried too. More about the injuries than the performance on Monday, we've had those before and bounced back. But injuries were always a risk with a squad this thin, it looks like it's going to come back to bite us :(

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Yup! :upset:

:shrug:

It is what it is, I can't be bothered to get stressed about it. The injuries are a big problem and I personally think the Spuds are favourites now for 4th but we can only do what we can do. I think if our run in was a bit more favourable I would have a lot more confident even with the injuries but we have to go to Chelsea, West Ham & The Spuds aswell as a home game against United. It's a big ask for us to expect to finish 4th now.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I’m worried tbf. Monday felt like a bit of a watershed moment for the season. Add the injuries on top of that and it doesn’t feel great.

I expect us to sneak past Brighton and I guess Southampton but after that we’ll need a monumental effort to stay in the hunt. Unless Spurs go all Spursy (:pray:) we’ll probably need at least 7 points from Chelsea A, United H and West Ham A.

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Call me negative, but with the current personnel available to us and presumably available by the time we play those teams, I think we will do well to get 5 points out of those games. 7 points would have been a tough ask even with a fully fit squad, with what we have now we are looking very weak in defence and central midfield.

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

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Originally Posted by IBK

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

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Lol. Tommy is finished for the season mate. Another injury prone player in the ranks.

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Originally Posted by IBK

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

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If Tommy was back you could sit Xhaka, but you can’t have two cart horses on the flanks with Cedric and Xhaka.

I see the logic in switching Saka as he’s done it before, and I must admit I thought he was the go to when Tavares was more than a woman versus CP, but you can’t take our (currently) best player and move him from his most effective position.

That said, I’d put Saka right back, have Pepe in front. Put Xhaka LB and Cedric fucks off

I thought we’d get beat on Monday because we seem to be shit against Palace, and we have been for a few years. They’re a team that works fucking hard, and if you don’t match that, you’ll get picked off.

We lost it in midfield, because Partey got bossed. They put major pressure on him and he collapsed. Xhaka simply can’t keep up with the energy and strength palace showed. Vieira knows if you win the middle you control the pace…

In games like that, you have to send the fear of the reaper up the arse of a team by having a striker/strikers who require midfield attention. Frankly a back to goal Lacazette was not going to put the wind up them.

The problem is a light squad with no reliable deputy wing backs, one “one” trick pony upfront, and Xhaka who can’t play under pressure

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Originally Posted by IBK

Anyone thinking about Saka at LB Xhaka and Lokonga in MF and Pepe on the right (need Tommy to return at RB)?

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Briefly. I don’t think we can afford to lose Saka from the press and the attack, though. No one else is scoring atm.

If we go back to 4231 and a double-pivot in midfield (Xhaka and Sambi), I think I’d stick with Nuno and hope he can play himself back into the kind of confidence he was showing earlier in the season. Maybe bring in Holding and move White to RB to balance it (assuming Tomi’s still out)? If the crowd get behind him and give him an early roar of support I think that’ll make a big difference to him.

(And if he doesn’t get the start today I think that’s him done here.)

Saka stays where he is for me, but I do think there’s a conversation to be had about Lacazette now - our expectations of him have dropped so low that he pretty much gets a free pass on goal-scoring (which is absolutely crazy), but I’m not sure he’s even offering that much on hold-up play any more? Certainly nothing that Smith Rowe or Martinelli or Pepe couldn’t do. I just wish we’d tried it weeks ago when we were on a run, for 30 minutes here and there on the 60 min mark, instead of leaving it until it’s critical and not having a fucking clue how it will work! Then again, if Laca isn’t scoring, doesn’t even get in the box and isn’t even doing a great job of holding it up then we quite literally have nothing to lose.

(Although, for the record, I don’t expect we’ll touch Lacazette at this point - it would probably be one too many key changes for Arteta on top of both fullbacks and changing CM. At the very least I’d like to see us try something other than Eddie when we sub him off, though - at least try something different at that point.)

Bye bye Mikel. :angry:

Rubbish!

Paid the price for such a ridiculously thin squad and no rotation. Options are non-existent outside the first 11.

Top 4 is over. We are fighting for Europa place now.

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Originally Posted by selassie

Top 4 is over. We are fighting for Europa place now.

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Don't care.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Paid the price for such a ridiculously thin squad and no rotation. Options are non-existent outside the first 11.

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It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

Totally agree re failure to rotate and just also his lack of trust in all but a very few players

I guess it hasn't helped that we exited all the cups early and had no European games either, so less chance for the fringe players to play lesser teams, but that being the case he needed to give more players a runout more regularly in the PL, as you say, and rest the first-teamers more

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

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:gp:

Totally agree.

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager. Was that the premise when he was appointed?. If so, when does he kick on?. Next season, 5 years. Id like to know so I can lower my expectations next season, and the next and maybe the next after that?

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager. Was that the premise when he was appointed?. If so, when does he kick on?. Next season, 5 years. Id like to know so I can lower my expectations next season, and the next and maybe the next after that?

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Just lower your expectations today, then there is no disappointment :tiphat:

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Originally Posted by Chippy

Just lower your expectations today, then there is no disappointment :tiphat:

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You are too kind good sir. I'll come back when we are good again

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Can someone explain to me why we are a nursery for a juvenile manager.

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Always felt like a punt. He has no pedigree but he worked under Pep, talks a good game and he did win us the FA Cup in his first season. This season at times it has felt like there has been some progress. The Collapse ™ is disappointing although not super surprising. The lack of a top striker and the thinness of the squad always felt likely to cost us. Of late we have been getting away with it and I’d started to believe we might get away with it. But it seems not.
The question is to we believe that there has been some progress and give Arteta a chance to continue that or do we look elsewhere. I’m still in the former camp for now but if we really properly collapse in to mid table, which is certainly possible now, then I might take a different view.

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

It’s the lack of rotation that’s killed us. The squad might be thin, but I don’t think that’s the issue here - there’s options there that Arteta simply doesn’t trust or use, and he can’t afford that.

For all the good work he’s doing in terms of fundamental coaching, implementing football identity and overhauling the culture at the club, Arteta clearly still has a lot to learn about game and player management - you can’t just run the same XI into the ground like that and expect them to last 10 months. He has to get better at working with sub-optimal options. Some of these guys might have been ready to help if we’d invested in them throughout the season, but now we’ve backed ourselves into a corner where none of them look ready and would probably take most of our remaining games to rediscover their rhythm and form.

I keep trying to remind myself that he’s basically the equivalent of a player like Saka or Martinelli in terms of his managerial experience and development - that his progress won’t be perfectly linear and that this is how you learn - but it does feel like he goes out of his way to learn all his lessons the hard way at times! Whether he’d ever admit it or not, I think he needs a more senior figure at the club who’s opinion he respects - someone who he can turn to for advice when he needs it and someone who isn’t afraid to offer advice, even if it hasn’t been sought. Again, his team are doing a lot of good things, but they do feel like a bunch of yes men.

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This is the downside to having no European football or cup runs. Squad players aren’t given the opportunity to bed in and develop. Playing every 7-10 days gives ample recovery time so there hasn’t really been a need to rotate.

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

This is the downside to having no European football or cup runs. Squad players aren’t given the opportunity to bed in and develop. Playing every 7-10 days gives ample recovery time so there hasn’t really been a need to rotate.

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Yeah, I agree. I also think our lack of goal-scorers has played a part - if we had that ability to ruthlessly bury teams and wrap games up by the hour mark then there may have been more scope to get more minutes in a few more legs along the way.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Always felt like a punt.

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yes, he's definitely a punt

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Originally Posted by Letters

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

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that guy's bang on - put him in charge of the club NOW! :scarf:

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Originally Posted by Letters

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

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Spot on.

Unfortunately, all too obvious and all too predictable.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Always felt like a punt. He has no pedigree but he worked under Pep, talks a good game and he did win us the FA Cup in his first season. This season at times it has felt like there has been some progress. The Collapse ™ is disappointing although not super surprising. The lack of a top striker and the thinness of the squad always felt likely to cost us. Of late we have been getting away with it and I’d started to believe we might get away with it. But it seems not.
The question is to we believe that there has been some progress and give Arteta a chance to continue that or do we look elsewhere. I’m still in the former camp for now but if we really properly collapse in to mid table, which is certainly possible now, then I might take a different view.

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We have improved but as you rightly said we have to watch how the season plays out now to see where we finish, how we perform and what we have really learnt.

We still struggle offensively as a team, the numbers are still down and it's simply not good enough, if Arteta isn't happy with his options...I'm certainly not, then he needs to go out and buy what is required, no more excuses. This summer is really key for Arteta and Edu, assuming we finish somewhere in a European place then we should be attractive enough to improve the attacking side of the team by making good signings that improve the team. We need to improve Central Midfield too and the squad in general.

I am all for signing younger players and in general we have recruited very well over the past few years but we must buy players that improve the team now, no signings for the future or loading the squad with potential and hiding behind it as an excuse to failure.

I have personally given up on a top 4 finish but we certainly should be doing as much as possible to finish as high up the table as possible so 5th at the bare minimum.

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Originally Posted by Letters

This is good. Not a fan of AFTV but this isn't the usual ranting and raving, some good analysis in here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfaJc3oxaUQ

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It's the same analysis as always. The same that has applied for over a decade. And the same old shite about the top 4 trophy. All the same old problems. When you play with your back to goal, when you play sideways and backwards, when you do it for so long it becomes second nature no matter who joins or leaves, you are only going to compete for the coveted top 4 trophy if all the other clubs bar three maximum are even shittier than you. And even if that happened, the top 4 trophy is just a gateway for future humiliation in a tournament the club simply isn't fit to compete in. Wenger might as well have stayed. Nothing is different, not with anything that actually matters. You could say there has been "progress" in achieving the very basics of defence, but compared to what? Certainly not compared to the seasons after seasons we'd hardly concede a goal. If you are a winner who strives to become a loser, it's not progress to be second last.

The fans need to keep their hands in their pockets until Kroenke is forced out and the club returns to the business of football. This has always been the case since that bastard first walked in. Until it happens nothing can change because the club is happy with the money the fans keep inexplicably shoving its way.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

It's the same analysis as always. The same that has applied for over a decade. And the same old shite about the top 4 trophy. All the same old problems. When you play with your back to goal, when you play sideways and backwards, when you do it for so long it becomes second nature no matter who joins or leaves, you are only going to compete for the coveted top 4 trophy if all the other clubs bar three maximum are even shittier than you. And even if that happened, the top 4 trophy is just a gateway for future humiliation in a tournament the club simply isn't fit to compete in. Wenger might as well have stayed. Nothing is different, not with anything that actually matters. You could say there has been "progress" in achieving the very basics of defence, but compared to what? Certainly not compared to the seasons after seasons we'd hardly concede a goal. If you are a winner who strives to become a loser, it's not progress to be second last.

The fans need to keep their hands in their pockets until Kroenke is forced out and the club returns to the business of football. This has always been the case since that bastard first walked in. Until it happens nothing can change because the club is happy with the money the fans keep inexplicably shoving its way.

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failed Superleague aside (which i know is a big issue but hey we weren't alone) the Kroenkes aren't the problem, except that they don't know enough about footbal to hire the right people who do

they've backed the club with real money and made loads of signings - it's not their fault if Arteta then throws half of them on scrapheap

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Originally Posted by Ollie the Optimist

Should be gone tonight as the longer we leave, the more damage he does

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Pretty much this, the very first post.
The damage is already done by Letting Guendozi and Saliba leave (and they are not coming back).
He has also fallen out with various players.
Why be stubborn and let Auba leave at a pivotal point in the season? He wants to be like Pep, but he is a rookie.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

failed Superleague aside (which i know is a big issue but hey we weren't alone) the Kroenkes aren't the problem, except that they don't know enough about footbal to hire the right people who do

they've backed the club with real money and made loads of signings - it's not their fault if Arteta then throws half of them on scrapheap

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Yeah, that could be viewed as a problem.

I'd like to see the net balance, regarding this backing of the club with real money. I'm guessing that balance runs very much in their favour over their reign of mediocrity.