Well...what do you think now then?
I've added a 3rd option, are there conditions for the end of this season which you'd set in order for you to be happy for him to stay on?
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Well...what do you think now then?
I've added a 3rd option, are there conditions for the end of this season which you'd set in order for you to be happy for him to stay on?
He wins the title or the CL and we do either playing quality football. FA Cup not good enough for me. It's about consistency against the best and you don't measure that by the FA Cup. I think we should already be winning this title. I think we have a better squad than the chavs and I think we've chucked away the points that separate us from top spot.
A patch of good form isn't going to change my opinion because we all know we're a good side with good players, but winning at Old Trafford has at least made me consider the mentality may have strengthened. We've been here before though, encouraging signs then think hmm maybe 1 more season, only to see Wenger shoot himself in the foot with glaring oversights.
We need to be challenging for the league (and improve in Europe) for my opinion to really change, however retaining the cup would represent a successful season and I'd be happy for him to stay on.
It's all academic anyway, we know he's here for as long as he wants to be. I think it's best that we just try to enjoy the ride now. :scarf:
We have been here before - way too many times - but there are a few things (winning the Cup, signing players of the calibre of Ozil and Sanchez, winning at OT) which maybe, just maybe, indicate this is more than just another false dawn.
I don't think that's a reasonable target for this season - we are where we are and winning the title is extremely unlikely this year unless Chelsea seriously implode. The CL too is beyond us, even if we do salvage the Monaco tie we'd then be facing teams like Bayern or Barca who we're unlikely to beat and failing to is no basis for sacking a manger. The issue is are we progressing to the extent that we can win the league (or certainly challenge right to the end) next season. Right now it looks like it, but we have been here too many times before. I have suggested a few reasons why this may be different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
New 5 year contract pls
Perhaps I'm being a little too forgiving, but finishing 3rd (or above) and retaining the FA Cup is enough for me. Having said that, even if he fails then I believe he should stay on.
The thing is, as much as I disagree with some of the actions that Wenger takes, I cannot think of a Manager who would be available that would bring us to the next level and compete on a regular basis.
Take a look at last season when we are (arguably) at our lowest moral-wise, alot of people (including myself) were calling for Wenger to resign on the pretence that we could bring in someone like Martinez or Klopp (as these were the most achievable targets as replacements). Some months on and look at those Managers now (compared to last season's finish).
Everton 14th (-9 places)
Dortmund 10th (-8 places)
We've seen what can happen selecting the wrong Manager (see Man U), and I wouldn't be overly surprised if we suffer the same fate if Wenger goes as a knee jerk reaction to people's frustration.
Therefore, unless a Manager whom has shown that they can compete on a regular basis becomes available, then I believe keeping Wenger is the best choice.
It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Above is a winning mentality.
"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.
You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.
In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.
Beautiful post, tbf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Agreed. I think we can all agree that Wenger has failed, to some extent, over the last 10 years. But he wasn't sacked for it so there's no point in dwelling on that. The question is whether he is now the right man to lead us forward. If he isn't and if there is someone out there who is and we could actually employ then he should be sacked. There is no point in sacking him if there is no plan as to who to replace him with. There is also of course no point in keeping him just because we're scared that the next bloke might do worse. But let's not 'do a Spurs' and sack our manager with no real plan as to what to do next.Quote:
It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.
Above is a winning mentality.
At the start of the season, I agree. Right now, not so much.Quote:
"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.
While it's mathematically possible for us to win the league I expect us to do everything we can to try, but we have to be realistic. We're 7 points behind with 9 games left - and the team currently top have a game in hand over us - we could win every game and still not win the title. That would be no basis for sacking our manager. Doing so would not be the actions of a 'winner', they would be the actions of a toddler (yes, Abramovic, I am looking at you).
We're on a good run right now, the sort of run that had it been sustained over a season would have won us the title. But we've been here before, far too many times. The big question is are things different now? Are we heading in a direction where next season we can seriously challenge - properly challenge all season. Or this is yet another false dawn and the fundamental problems remain? I have suggested a few signs (the new level of signings, the FA Cup win, the two results in Manchester - particularly in the FA Cup last week) which may suggest that the times they are a-changing. If they are then IMO this would be a terrible time to change manager.
:gp:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
The question was stay or go. Not sacked. I'm totally against him being sacked under any circumstances short of changing the kit to blue and white. I'd hope any transition was handled quietly behind the scenes with Wenger coming to some agreement on targets and performance and a voluntary departure date should those targets not be met. Trouble is, ask this board for a target and they'll tell you 5% per annum on the share value - OR ELSE! Another trouble is, ask the board anything and they'll tell you to ask Wenger. But I think he'll know when the time is right. Hopefully it will be on a high and not a low.
I want him gone regardless. The damage was done in the summer, if he would have recruited properly we would be properly challenging for the title IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I think 3rd and FA Cup is a good return. Especially if we are around 6 points from top. I know people think we should be winning the CL but since 2000 the winners have been United, Barca, Milan, Inter, Real, Chavs, Bayern, Liverpool and Porto. Bayern, United, Liverpool, Real, Milan and Barca are all bigger clubs with a larger European pedigree. The year we should have won it though we screwed up against Chelsea, Porto won it and Mourinho laughed all the way to the bank and the chavs.
I know we complain when we lose that its points thrown away but all teams do it really. Both Chelsea and City would complain about throwing points away this weekend. So no teams go the season without losing..... oh no wait... nearly no teams ;)
I do think its a big step for us to win the league, I still don't think we know how to chase a game as I cant recall us winning this season after going behind. And sometimes you do concede first and still need to pick up the points.
If you look at the Barca situation, they are still competing at the top of their league & the C.L. with a manager who has he doubters. But with the players they have, the teams they regularly play I would suggest that Nigel Pearson would be getting similar results if he was their manager. How much more can you teach the likes of Messi etc. Put quality players into a system where they have quality replacements & you get continuity.
We regularly win the 4th place trophy because we have continuity through our manager & the way he tries to play but again could Nigel Pearson be getting similar results with our squad & spending power.
If we actually want to challenge we need the continuity that we have to be broken & this can only be with a new manager.
There is not a job in the world where you are better at 65 than when you were 50. We need a younger guy in who has learnt his trade during the period that billionaires have ruined our game. Having money ofcourse is a major benefit but you can only have 11 players on the pitch. A manager that will pay for transfer fees ( within reason ) without arguing over a few million quid when he thinks we need that type of player is essential. Wenger seems to never want to give in to anyone & we have missed out on a lot of players because of his penny pinching. Ozil & Sanchez are quality players but we have badly neglected key areas in defence, DM & prolific striker for too many years now - even when we have had the money.
Shopping mall Santa? :unsure:Quote:
There is not a job in the world where you are better at 65 than when you were 50.
Second place (or third) and another big signing, please.
FA cup would be nice, but it's more random--and so less of a performance indicator--than league position, I think.
I'd only want him to go if a Klopp, Simeone or Pep became available.
There's no option on there that I can tick
Should be an option for
- It's completely academic because Wenger will be here until 2017 (and probably beyond that) whatever I think.
Before Christmas the idea of him being here till the end of the season let alone two more after that was too much to bare, but he's kind of done what he always does and that's steer the ship just enough away from the cliff that we don't run aground. The seemingly unforgivable defeat to Monaco was made up for by winning at Old Trafford in the cup, and the truly shocking performances (win, lose or draw) have largely improved.
Ultimately can't help but shake the feeling that under Wenger we are the South African cricket team of European football
For me, if we win the fa cup and finish strongly in the league then he deserves one more season to get it right. Ive changed my opinion several times on whether he should go or not but for me especially with the two manchester games there have been significant changes. Ozil and Alexis have added some serious quality, Giroud has stepped up too. If we can attack second place and get that with a trophy then he gets one more shot.
If we limp over the line making the same mistakes as we have for the past few years then i think he should probably walk away but the manchester results, especially united, has given hope that Wenger is changing himself too. He is sticking to his principles but adjusting the tactics as well. If he continues to do that then one more shot. The proof will be in how many points we take against liverppol, chelsea and united. If we can get 7/9 then i think that is huge improvement
:gp: Big post. You've made progress! Seems like our talks are finally rubbing off! :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
In all seriousness, I've never understood the '4th place is a trophy' mentality Wenger has carried around. We've settled on 4th pace for years and I've understood why the lack of success in recent years never burned him or severely bruised his ego. I've always hated the way he's defended the ambition of Board and shifted the focus on financial stability as if their goals should be the standard in the football. The mentality of the Board will always be different because they're looking over the commercial side of things and a win for them is different to the sort of targets the player's and manager wish to achieve in their careers. Any desire for silverware on the Boards part has to be linked with the commercial and financial spoils it will bring. I can understand that. It's the nature of that side of the business and not just exclusive to football. But the players and manager should want victory and ultimate victory on the pitch. The day we're satisfied with 4th in the league, then something is really wrong.
It's time for Wenger to move on. If he can finish his career on a high with silverware, then I'm all for it. That's the perfect way to end it.
Youve got far too much time on your habds to think of that one! - good shout though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
Gotta go
Care to elaborate?Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
He needs a shite.
2017 should be a good time to go for the current Italy manager and former Juve manager (name escapes me now). Pep should be tired of eating German sausages (for dinner.....you of naughty imagination) by that time too I think. Either would be great
You know my conditions.. challenge for the PL, challenge for the CL and beat a Mourinho side. I do not think any of this is going to happen this season. May be the last one has a chance but I definitely wont be holding my breath. I know that Mourinho will be salivating to get one more win against Wenger.. unfortunately I do not see Wenger having that same kind of hunger to put one over Mourinho.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I have seen enough false dawns under Wenger to know that a few wins will usually lead to nothing but disappointment.
Arsenal have had most of their successful years with Arsene Wenger . The same man that fans are questioning his abilities to bring the team to the next level now . Success can never be built all of the sudden . It is a process that goes step by step .
We were enjoying success at Highbury and no one realised the stadium was a bird nest and was holding the team back . Wenger conceived the Emirates that we are proud of and enjoying . That came with a heavy price to pay : we lost the success of our tiny Highbury and the ability to buy top players as we had to finance our new home .
That problem seems solved .
If we can win our FA cup and push Chelsea and City as far as we can and grab a second or third place , if we can add one or two top players on top of what we already have , I can not see any reason why Wenger shouldn't be allowed to continue the work he has started .
Changing the manager is not a bad idea but who is that person who will do more than what Wenger has done ? Is the Arsenal board prepared to spend millions on top players every season like Chelsea or Man City ? I , personally , doubt it .
Following all these reasons , for me , it is Wenger In ATM .
he needs to go imo. he's become the master at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, it's too late for us to have a chance at the title this year and cl is almost certainly a goner too.
We are 9 points of Chelsea (if they win their game in hand) but with them coming to our place still plus a couple of other tough ish games against Man ure and Liverpool, its all to play for for us interms of title or at least 2nd place.
Wenger should stay on if we get 3rd or above and the win the FA cup too.
There is a very good chance Chelsea will drop a few points and we could be in touching distance of them come April when we play them. You know whats going to happen next, dont you? Mourinho will analyze and break down every bit of information about our game and set up to hit us on the counter... and we WILL get hit on the counter, as expected. You are not going to get anything different out of Wenger... sure a couple of wins and some sexy goals will bring the Wenger lovers 'giving him one more season' but the stats will say that this is going to be a false dawn, as usual.Quote:
Originally Posted by AFC Leveller
Wenger needs to quit after this season.. no 2 ways about it. I am actually disappointed to see that 5 people actually want him to stay. Some people never learn.. :sulk:
It's hardly a few wins. Our last 24 games, since we lost the Utd game at home, we have W19 D1 L4 in all competitions.Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
It's a pretty impressive run.
You are right about false dawns but I've suggested a few things which may indicate this is a bit different.
If we finish 3rd, or even 2nd, and retain the Cup then we'll have won two major trophies in two seasons and be well placed to push on and challenge next year.
We've been well placed like this before of course but I do see the Utd result as significant and if we beat Chelsea too then that might show something about this team which we haven't seen for a long time.
Fakeyank , do you know that most people don't like their job, especially when they see the boy next door driving a Lamborghini or a Ferrari they can't afford ? But they stick to their job which allows them to pay their bills , to have a decent Holliday ,to pay themselves a second hand bike ..etc..All that because , they might not have the qualification required to have a better job or simply a connection or information to a better job or their health or family commitment could be the problem .Quote:
Originally Posted by fakeyank
The problem is not Wenger in or out . The problem is who will replace him and deliver a better job than him? Will the board back him with more money ? Is the board ready to invest more money than they did with Wenger ?
They always say the devil you know is better than the angel you don't know .
I'll give you another impressive run we went on in 2008/09 season (IMO one of the worst football was played by Arsenal this season, with Denilson in the forefront). During this season, we went on a run that started in November 08 in the PL. That run had just one defeat till the end of the season. One freaking defeat in 6 months is bloody impressive you would think. Unfortunately not, we had 10 draws during this time, 4 of which were consecutive 0-0 draws.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
We can go on another 10 match unbeaten run, but if we are 10 points behind the champions come may, 'this run' makes no difference to me. Stats can be interpreted and twisted according to an individuals preference. What you cannot change is the end result.. have we challenged? Have we showed that we can play the big boys in Europe and look like an European power house? I do not see these turning in the favor of Arsenal till the time AW is in charge.
I will tell you however that beating Mourinho will really make me rethink my position! In fact, if you ask me which I'd rather have- the FA cup or a win over Chelsea with Mourinho as manager, I'd pick the later.
Its a run that leaves us in a position where we have no hope of the title or a European challenge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I'm done with cherry picking good runs during the course of a season that ultimately ends in the same type of failure.
We've done that season after season after season and ended up with one FA Cup to show for it all.
He still shows the same tactical ineptitude and inability to get the most out of a talented squad.
Two weeks ago, we were abysmal against Monaco, a gimme (if there is one) to the Qtr Finals. We ballsed it up as we weren't prepared for the bleeding obvious.
He has stumbled upon the Coquelin thing out of pure luck, and will likely replace him with Arteta as soon as he possibly can.
We are only a few matches away from another embarassment. A good team only has one or two embarassments a season. We're still racking up double figures.
It's nice to see us beat a shit Utd (like we should have done earlier in the year), but for me the only stand out result so far this year, is the win away to City. That's still a one off for me, as I don't regard Utd as any good at all. All we did was do what we should have done.
Bang Bang ....Don D'MarcoQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Fear of the unknown should not be a reason to stick with mediocrity. Let's say you are in a relationship where your partner and you are not growing together, there is no love and no passion in the relationship. Do you break up? Or do you stick with the relationship because that is all you knew your entire life?Quote:
Originally Posted by Alpha
I can rattle off the same names about possible replacements like Simeone, Klopp, Martinez etc etc, but I am not going down that route. How many people thought Arsene Wenger would deliver when we signed him in 96? No one! There is no guarantees that the next manager will be the perfect fit for our club, but there is also a chance that the next manager just might be the perfect fit? Why look at only the negatives and not the positives of such a situation? It is not like Wenger was not given time to build his teams... he has time and again showed that his tactics and man management are one of the worst among the top teams in Europe.
So the question really is, why would I want him to stay on? We have showed our loyalty to him.. time to move on to bigger and better things!