Wenger Referendum II - And this time it's personal

[Letters]

He wins the title or the CL and we do either playing quality football. FA Cup not good enough for me. It's about consistency against the best and you don't measure that by the FA Cup. I think we should already be winning this title. I think we have a better squad than the chavs and I think we've chucked away the points that separate us from top spot.

I don't think that's a reasonable target for this season - we are where we are and winning the title is extremely unlikely this year unless Chelsea seriously implode. The CL too is beyond us, even if we do salvage the Monaco tie we'd then be facing teams like Bayern or Barca who we're unlikely to beat and failing to is no basis for sacking a manger. The issue is are we progressing to the extent that we can win the league (or certainly challenge right to the end) next season. Right now it looks like it, but we have been here too many times before. I have suggested a few reasons why this may be different.

[GP]

New 5 year contract pls

[Zerlathon]

Perhaps I'm being a little too forgiving, but finishing 3rd (or above) and retaining the FA Cup is enough for me. Having said that, even if he fails then I believe he should stay on.

The thing is, as much as I disagree with some of the actions that Wenger takes, I cannot think of a Manager who would be available that would bring us to the next level and compete on a regular basis.

Take a look at last season when we are (arguably) at our lowest moral-wise, alot of people (including myself) were calling for Wenger to resign on the pretence that we could bring in someone like Martinez or Klopp (as these were the most achievable targets as replacements). Some months on and look at those Managers now (compared to last season's finish).

Everton 14th (-9 places)
Dortmund 10th (-8 places)

We've seen what can happen selecting the wrong Manager (see Man U), and I wouldn't be overly surprised if we suffer the same fate if Wenger goes as a knee jerk reaction to people's frustration.

Therefore, unless a Manager whom has shown that they can compete on a regular basis becomes available, then I believe keeping Wenger is the best choice.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think that's a reasonable target for this season - we are where we are and winning the title is extremely unlikely this year unless Chelsea seriously implode. The CL too is beyond us, even if we do salvage the Monaco tie we'd then be facing teams like Bayern or Barca who we're unlikely to beat and failing to is no basis for sacking a manger. The issue is are we progressing to the extent that we can win the league (or certainly challenge right to the end) next season. Right now it looks like it, but we have been here too many times before. I have suggested a few reasons why this may be different.

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

[Marc Overmars]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.

Above is a winning mentality.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

You asked the question, I'm giving you an Olympic champion's, world heavyweight champion's, world cup winner's response. For people who get paid an obscene fortune every week to do what they love there are two ways to go, take those gifts and give back every ounce of effort in achieving all that can be achieved or be complacent and take without giving back.

In sport you can fail. Most do. But if you fail without expecting to succeed then your mentality is shit. If you fail having given every last drop of effort then that's an acceptable platform on which to try again. That's progress. Anything else is unacceptable. This isn't a charity or a hobby or a part time job, it's the pinnacle of professional sport. So I'll stick with requiring the title or the CL because I ASSUME the manager thinks the same way and will act accordingly. If that's not the case then of course he shouldn't be the manager.

Beautiful post, tbf.

[Letters]

It's a reasonable target over 10 seasons though and we should be aiming for and expect to win both the title and the CL. That should be the MINIMUM expectation at all times and it's entirely reasonable for a club with Arsenal's resources to effectively challenge for both. From the board through the manager the players and the fans, total victory across the spectrum is the goal at all times. Every loss is a failure and there are no excuses ever.
Above is a winning mentality.

Agreed. I think we can all agree that Wenger has failed, to some extent, over the last 10 years. But he wasn't sacked for it so there's no point in dwelling on that. The question is whether he is now the right man to lead us forward. If he isn't and if there is someone out there who is and we could actually employ then he should be sacked. There is no point in sacking him if there is no plan as to who to replace him with. There is also of course no point in keeping him just because we're scared that the next bloke might do worse. But let's not 'do a Spurs' and sack our manager with no real plan as to what to do next.

"I don't think it's reasonable...", "I'd settle for...", "We can't expect to...", "Finishing 2nd would be an achievement...", "Better the devil you know...", these are all the loser's mentality. The moment you preface a challenge with any of these qualifiers you have lost.

At the start of the season, I agree. Right now, not so much.
While it's mathematically possible for us to win the league I expect us to do everything we can to try, but we have to be realistic. We're 7 points behind with 9 games left - and the team currently top have a game in hand over us - we could win every game and still not win the title. That would be no basis for sacking our manager. Doing so would not be the actions of a 'winner', they would be the actions of a toddler (yes, Abramovic, I am looking at you).

We're on a good run right now, the sort of run that had it been sustained over a season would have won us the title. But we've been here before, far too many times. The big question is are things different now? Are we heading in a direction where next season we can seriously challenge - properly challenge all season. Or this is yet another false dawn and the fundamental problems remain? I have suggested a few signs (the new level of signings, the FA Cup win, the two results in Manchester - particularly in the FA Cup last week) which may suggest that the times they are a-changing. If they are then IMO this would be a terrible time to change manager.

[Niall_Quinn]

The question was stay or go. Not sacked. I'm totally against him being sacked under any circumstances short of changing the kit to blue and white. I'd hope any transition was handled quietly behind the scenes with Wenger coming to some agreement on targets and performance and a voluntary departure date should those targets not be met. Trouble is, ask this board for a target and they'll tell you 5% per annum on the share value - OR ELSE! Another trouble is, ask the board anything and they'll tell you to ask Wenger. But I think he'll know when the time is right. Hopefully it will be on a high and not a low.

[Bumble]

I think 3rd and FA Cup is a good return. Especially if we are around 6 points from top. I know people think we should be winning the CL but since 2000 the winners have been United, Barca, Milan, Inter, Real, Chavs, Bayern, Liverpool and Porto. Bayern, United, Liverpool, Real, Milan and Barca are all bigger clubs with a larger European pedigree. The year we should have won it though we screwed up against Chelsea, Porto won it and Mourinho laughed all the way to the bank and the chavs.

I know we complain when we lose that its points thrown away but all teams do it really. Both Chelsea and City would complain about throwing points away this weekend. So no teams go the season without losing..... oh no wait... nearly no teams

I do think its a big step for us to win the league, I still don't think we know how to chase a game as I cant recall us winning this season after going behind. And sometimes you do concede first and still need to pick up the points.

[fakeyank]

Gotta go

[Letters]

Gotta go

Care to elaborate?