Arsenal V Spurs (2-2)

Now that the dust has settled from yesterday’s NLD, what are your thoughts?

Personally, I thought we made that lot look good on our own patch when they should have been there for the taking.

Our midfield looked pretty much overrun and our defence looked shaky.

Why are we still persevering with Nketiah, Havertz and White (at RB).

We are screaming out for a proper striker. Jesus is not the answer.

We have gone backwards from last season…..cue the “When will Arteta be sacked by” post.

PS
We should have got Maddison instead of rice and saved around £60m.

I lack the mental energy to do a player rating and match summation. But I’ll do it anyway


Raya 6.5 - Made a really good stop first half but overall I’m not really seeing any improvement on Ramsdale


White 6.5 - ok supporting Saka going forward but lacking again defensively


Saliba 7 - not responsible for either goal, he and Gabriel are being hung out to dry by high line and lack of defensive protection


Gabriel 7 - As with Saliba



Zinchenko 4 - what’s the point of him, what does he offer


Rice 5 - Worst game in an Arsenal kit, and I’m sorry to say this but as someone who has stated since the beginning about his lack of pace and technical ability…I don’t get any pleasure out of this coming to bear


Vieira 5 - couldn’t deal with the physical aspect of the game


Odegaard 6 - positionally just shouldn’t be played in this RCM role, he’s not creating enough and he should be playing in the hole


Saka 7.5 - Only one of our attackers who had a decent game, why though was he not taken off when he clearly had an injury


Nketiah 5 - It’s like he’s playing with noise cancelling earphones, not being able to finish chances is one thing constantly being in the wrong place when midfielders are trying to play the ball to him is something else


Jesus 6.5 - Should have buried the chance when he dispossessed Romero high up the pitch but offered far more in attacking sense than Edward did.


Subs


Jorginho 2 - Fuck right off, two is generous given he failed to do the basic thing that his position calls for


Havertz 4 - As slow and ponderous as Jorginho but higher up the pitch where it’s less dangerous


Nelson 6 - Couldn’t really get into the game


Smith-Rowe 5 - I don’t even remember him coming on



Yesterday was a thick lumpy mixture of everything that I dislike about this team and coach. One dimensional tactically in a game where had we soaked up pressure and hit them on the break we’d have gone through them like shrapnel through a child.

Don’t get me wrong it wasn’t entirely wrong to press them high when they insist on playing out, but stone me how we really didn’t capitalise on that.

We still give opponents far too much space in our own half and the middle of the park and it’s costing us big time, because we simply aren’t creating enough to balance that out. The system isn’t working but the players aren’t producing either. Vieira wasn’t up to it at this level, Nketiah is a joke…we absolutely missed the pace of martinelli and the technical trickery of Trossard.

In terms of dominance we deserved to win, in terms of profligacy and openness we were lucky not to lose

Arteta compounded this by taking off Jesus, leaving on Edward and Saka….how he hasn’t suffered a muscle injury by now I simply don’t know.


But the players themselves have to take responsibility and they mostly all played within themselves.

Odegaard was pure crap yesterday....but I do agree with you that he would probably be more useful playing from the middle instead of close to Saka.

Its really depressing that after about 6 games now, Arteta still doesn't know his best team or where to play his best players to get performances from them. He just seems to be throwing anything out there hoping it sticks !!

I am seriously depressed about us this season and it seems needless to me seeing as we kept all the players that kept us ticking last season.

The coach's constant confusion is reminding me of Emery's last season with us...really sad to see us going sideways and eventually backward for no logical reason.

IMO there is no doubt that we have the personnel to get performances far better than what we've witnessed this season. Yes we're missing a top or even adequate finisher but its no worse than last season. The PSV game has been the only game I enjoyed and probably if Martinelli hadn't got injured early, it might never have been. TBH when I think of what I saw early last season and compare it to what we've churned out so far, I just want to have a good old cry!

The game was there to be won but not for the first time we failed to show a lack of killer instinct when on top. Without Kane Spurs still had enough to do damage and they did just that. Injuries didn’t help but we wilted in the second half and that mish mash of a team that finished the game were never going to find a winner.

I’m sick to my stomach of how many goals we continue to give away at home and how many of them can easily be prevented. In the end I was just relieved that Spurs settled for the point too because make no mistake we were there for the taking in the second half.

City will absolutely destroy us in a couple of weeks if we don’t play ourselves into form.

There is some talk that we could move for Toney in January.

I’d certainly back that.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

There is some talk that we could move for Toney in January.

I’d certainly back that.

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If we'd kept Balogun and even Tierney, we'd have had more natural options. Eddie had a shitfest on Sunday and was lucky not to get a red but their was no option to take him off which was totally self inflicted.

Then we have Havertz coming in as some sort of super sub when clearly he is still battling depression caused by I dont know.... maybe being the 2nd highest paid player in the club ?! There is no logical reason Smith Rowe shouldn't have come in ahead of him and why he's had so few minutes, especially since we are assured of a minimum level of performance from him when he is fit.

I am just tired of Arteta and his"Mad King" behaviour.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

If we'd kept Balogun and even Tierney, we'd have had more natural options. Eddie had a shitfest on Sunday and was lucky not to get a red but their was no option to take him off which was totally self inflicted.

Then we have Havertz coming in as some sort of super sub when clearly he is still battling depression caused by I dont know.... maybe being the 2nd best player in the club ?! There is no logical reason Smith Rowe shouldn't have come in ahead of him and why he's had so few minutes, especially since we are assured of a minimum level of performance from him when he is fit.

I am just tired of Arteta and his"Mad King" behaviour.

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Balogun missed two penalties for Monaco at the weekend

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Balogun missed two penalties for Monaco at the weekend

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Genuine question, missed or saved?

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Originally Posted by Mac76

Genuine question, missed or saved?

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They were saved but judge for yourself (the match highlights are available on you tube) . My attitude is unless it’s a world class save from the keeper, the forward has fouled up. And yeah Balogun fouled up, first penalty not enough power and straight at the keeper, second penalty more power but again straight at the keeper.

Can’t fault his nerve going back to take a second after he missed the first but still, the commentators said the last time the same player missed two penalties in a game in that league was 2007.

Just had a look. They were not good penalties.

EDIT: One of my football annoyances is when a penalty like that goes in and the commentator says what a great penalty it is. The goalkeeper going the wrong way and a weak penalty going in doesn't make it a good one <_<

Now I have had time to calm down, I can be more reasonable with my response.

DOGSHIT.

Eddie is also a waste of space, I think we sold the wrong striker or should have sold them both and bought someone else.
Hopefully the Toney rumors' are true.

Also what was that starting front 3 ??
I know we have a lack of options but christ!

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Balogun missed two penalties for Monaco at the weekend

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I was aware of that even before I posted this as I put money on Nice to draw the game which you know they more than did.

What I don't get is how this is related to what I posted earlier i.e. we had no option but to play Eddie for 90 mins as we only have two strikers?

Does the fact that he misses penalties mean he wouldn't have been preferable to have had him on the bench on Sunday? Does missing penalties now erase all the goals he scored last season in Ligue 1? If Havertz scored 2 penalties in a row does that mean he is a justifiable buy?

I honestly don't get what you are implying here, unless you are saying you prefer Eddie to Balogun, which TBH is your prerogative but doesn't change what I said about us having the option of all 3 earlier this season and choosing to start and finish a season with only 2.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

If we'd kept Balogun and even Tierney, we'd have had more natural options. Eddie had a shitfest on Sunday and was lucky not to get a red but their was no option to take him off which was totally self inflicted.

Then we have Havertz coming in as some sort of super sub when clearly he is still battling depression caused by I dont know.... maybe being the 2nd highest paid player in the club ?! There is no logical reason Smith Rowe shouldn't have come in ahead of him and why he's had so few minutes, especially since we are assured of a minimum level of performance from him when he is fit.

I am just tired of Arteta and his"Mad King" behaviour.

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Man....I am surprised no one pulled me up on calling Havertz the 2nd best player at the club :haha: ..... anyway corrected it but still wondering WTF happened with my brain there.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

I was aware of that even before I posted this as I put money on Nice to draw the game which you know they more than did.

What I don't get is how this is related to what I posted earlier i.e. we had no option but to play Eddie for 90 mins as we only have two strikers?

Does the fact that he misses penalties mean he wouldn't have been preferable to have had him on the bench on Sunday? Does missing penalties now erase all the goals he scored last season in Ligue 1? If Havertz scored 2 penalties in a row does that mean he is a justifiable buy?

I honestly don't get what you are implying here, unless you are saying you prefer Eddie to Balogun, which TBH is your prerogative but doesn't change what I said about us having the option of all 3 earlier this season and choosing to start and finish a season with only 2.

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Crikey….I thought it was meant to be me who got the hump too easily :lol:


Not being you or for that matter being psychic I don’t know what you know or don’t know about what happened in a French league fixture at the weekend


I think Sunday’s match suggested that it was quality rather than quantity we lacked up front. I’ve been very outspoken about how Arteta has spent loads on defenders and hasn’t actually bought an out and out striker in the almost four years he’s been here. But yeah I remain unconvinced that we shot ourselves in the foot by letting Balogun go, and actually more peeved that we spent sixty five million on Havertz rather than an out and out striker.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Crikey….I thought it was meant to be me who got the hump too easily :lol:


Not being you or for that matter being psychic I don’t know what you know or don’t know about what happened in a French league fixture at the weekend


I think Sunday’s match suggested that it was quality rather than quantity we lacked up front. I’ve been very outspoken about how Arteta has spent loads on defenders and hasn’t actually bought an out and out striker in the almost four years he’s been here. But yeah I remain unconvinced that we shot ourselves in the foot by letting Balogun go, and actually more peeved that we spent sixty five million on Havertz rather than an out and out striker.

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I don't agree with you on this.

I mean yes "Quality" is obviously something we all want but not understanding that "Quantity" counts in a 38 game season where we will be seriously chasing 2 other competitions (CL & FA cup) that could mean an additional 25 games is more than naive if you ask me, and only adds to the notion that Arteta is still learning on the job.

I mean look at the quality we've already lost in Timber and Partey. Add that to the absentees we had on Sunday, if you don't have options you get f**ked like we did.

Lets go further back to an experienced winning manager we had ....AW started 96 season with 3 strikers, Wrighty, Bergy and Hartson, by February he was strengthening by adding an unknown "quantity" Anelka, meaning we had 4. Yeah Hartson also left in February but AW didn't want him to go. Anyway our title challenge faltered around February but Wrighty still ended up with 23 goals being the 2nd highest scorer.

The next season, AW again signs another striker he had worked with in Wreh and our 23 goal striker gets a long term injury at the start. However the quality that is Bergkamp and the unknown quantity that was Anelka take the reins and we win the league. Wreh also helps with some important goals.

Next season, despite the fact we won the league he strengthens further by adding about 3 or so strikers with Kanu being the star pick. Yes we didn't win it but we didn't fall far short either.

What I don't get is that we don't need to go that far back to realise that Arteta was playing russian roulette with this season yet again

Last season, when we had only one competition we were serious about, we started well thanks a lot to Jesus but once he got injured we all had our hearts in our mouth and wondered how we would cope. Despite Eddie surprising a lot of us and doing a good job what would have happened if he had also got a long term injury?

You would think that a manager who now waxes lyrical about having options for every position and who now freely admits that losing only one player meant he squandered a 9 point lead against Citeh, would make sure he has more than 2 strikers just in case.

Anyway, I didn't want this to be long but I think you get what I'm saying....there was absolutely no reason for us to get rid of some players we got rid of and not replacing them like for like after what we went through last season. Would it have really made much of a difference if we'd gotten rid of Balogun and Tierney in January instead? I don't think so.

So yeah in fairness I spoke about the quality over quantity issue specifically in relation to Sunday and on top
Of that I already stated that I think instead of buying Havertz we needed a striker, something on which there was actually broad consensus on, on this site over the summer.

However at the same time, I can absolutely see why we sold Balogun. That one good season in French football clearly increased his transfer value and it’s clear given our net spend in the last few years we do need to recoup some of our transfer outlays given that we aren’t Chelsea tying players don’t to eight year contracts as a con trick form of amortisation.

There is this frustration that we aren’t getting enough for the players we sell, and yeah ultimately I do think Arteta is somewhat responsible for that by not giving these players more game time. However with some of the loans it does appear like there is an obligation to buy (I don’t know about Lokonga but there definitely is with Tavares)

But whoever is responsible for that, the fact is that we don’t have endless resources (in truth because of FFP no one does) and my mind is more towards buying smart than spending more.

Selling on a player like Balogun now can honestly be the difference between being FFP compliant or not, no sense in having a squad that will bare minimum get us top four if we can’t even play in the sodding competition afterwards

Tierney? I like you question the wisdom of that, but given he’s a left back again not sure what difference he’d have made on Sunday…which is in reality what the thrust of this topic is about.

I can only say that I do hope we buy a striker in January.

My thoughts on the game?

Expectations are causing so much angst among supporters that weren't there last season with a 'free hit'. This game couldn't really have tapped into that disenchantment much more. If we are objective, then a draw against a Spurs team that are chalk and cheese to that of last season isn't the end of the world - particularly when their second goal was gifted to them. Our second half was rubbish, but we had lost one of lost our most important players in Rice, and in an already disrupted team Arteta subbed on Havertz - a player who must sums up our lack of confidence and form this season. Missing so many key players and struggling for form, a draw against a team that has been above us all season is no disaster.

My take is that we are pretty much where City were at around this stage of last season. Stuttering by their standards and trying to perfect a new way of setting up/playing, with new players in key positions on the pitch. We don't know yet whether we will find a way to click, but if we take the need for absolute perfection necessary to beat City out of the equation we have 14 points out of 18. I think Gooners need to find a little perspective.

The problem is that I think we will always be a season behind Citeh.

That said, I feel deflated about our team so far this season. The players do not look like they are enjoying EPL games, and (while injuries have played a part) Arteta looks to me like being too galaxy brained ATM. Our subs were very strange and completely ineffective. We saw how the manager's tendency to expect back up players like Jorginho and Riess Nelson to be able to fire from cold - in an already seriously disrupted team can come back to bite him.

For all my attempts at objectivity, the way things are looking right now - it is more likely than not that we will go backwards this season - notwithstanding (and maybe in part because of) our Summer signings.

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Originally Posted by IBK

My thoughts on the game?

Expectations are causing so much angst among supporters that weren't there last season with a 'free hit'. This game couldn't really have tapped into that disenchantment much more. If we are objective, then a draw against a Spurs team that are chalk and cheese to that of last season isn't the end of the world - particularly when their second goal was gifted to them. Our second half was rubbish, but we had lost one of lost our most important players in Rice, and in an already disrupted team Arteta subbed on Havertz - a player who must sums up our lack of confidence and form this season. Missing so many key players and struggling for form, a draw against a team that has been above us all season is no disaster.

My take is that we are pretty much where City were at around this stage of last season. Stuttering by their standards and trying to perfect a new way of setting up/playing, with new players in key positions on the pitch. We don't know yet whether we will find a way to click, but if we take the need for absolute perfection necessary to beat City out of the equation we have 14 points out of 18. I think Gooners need to find a little perspective.

The problem is that I think we will always be a season behind Citeh.

That said, I feel deflated about our team so far this season. The players do not look like they are enjoying EPL games, and (while injuries have played a part) Arteta looks to me like being too galaxy brained ATM. Our subs were very strange and completely ineffective. We saw how the manager's tendency to expect back up players like Jorginho and Riess Nelson to be able to fire from cold - in an already seriously disrupted team can come back to bite him.

For all my attempts at objectivity, the way things are looking right now - it is more likely than not that we will go backwards this season - notwithstanding (and maybe in part because of) our Summer signings.

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Your last 2 paragraphs is pretty much it.

No matter how much we try to look at things objectively or maybe even scientifically, this sport has always been about that 'gut feeling', and IMO that voice tends to call it right 9 out of 10 times.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

So yeah in fairness I spoke about the quality over quantity issue specifically in relation to Sunday and on top
Of that I already stated that I think instead of buying Havertz we needed a striker, something on which there was actually broad consensus on, on this site over the summer.

However at the same time, I can absolutely see why we sold Balogun. That one good season in French football clearly increased his transfer value and it’s clear given our net spend in the last few years we do need to recoup some of our transfer outlays given that we aren’t Chelsea tying players don’t to eight year contracts as a con trick form of amortisation.

There is this frustration that we aren’t getting enough for the players we sell, and yeah ultimately I do think Arteta is somewhat responsible for that by not giving these players more game time. However with some of the loans it does appear like there is an obligation to buy (I don’t know about Lokonga but there definitely is with Tavares)

But whoever is responsible for that, the fact is that we don’t have endless resources (in truth because of FFP no one does) and my mind is more towards buying smart than spending more.

Selling on a player like Balogun now can honestly be the difference between being FFP compliant or not, no sense in having a squad that will bare minimum get us top four if we can’t even play in the sodding competition afterwards

Tierney? I like you question the wisdom of that, but given he’s a left back again not sure what difference he’d have made on Sunday…which is in reality what the thrust of this topic is about.

I can only say that I do hope we buy a striker in January.

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I get your point on FFP but it seems only losers take it seriously ( and I honestly mean this in a nice way) seeing that no big club has been punished for it ( think Citeh and the point deduction, think Madrid being bailed out by their government, think Chelsea countless times etc).

Anyway despite that, we both agree another striker is needed, which is the only thing that is important ATM.

I’m getting the impression city are going to be compelled to take it seriously. It’s also as much about wages as transfer fees, and they got Gundogan and Mahrez off their books over the summer

Newsflash....our clown of a manager is now talking about Toney, I can't even be bothered to watch it

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vide...aditional-no-9

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Originally Posted by Letters

Just had a look. They were not good penalties.

EDIT: One of my football annoyances is when a penalty like that goes in and the commentator says what a great penalty it is. The goalkeeper going the wrong way and a weak penalty going in doesn't make it a good one <_<

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and one of mine is everyone using the term 'missed' penalty when the shot was on target - weak shot or not, the keeper still has to save it :sulk:

Just found some highlights - the first pel was a weak attempt but you could argue the second was very similar to Saka's on Sunday - when they go in, everyone praises the player for being cheeky or whatever, but when they don't they look dumb

but both were at least on target

also even though the highlights were brief, I'd say I saw Balogun in dangerous positions in the box more times than Eddie was and I still think we should have kept him and sold Eddie

Eddie's thinking and physical pace just aren't quick enough to keep up with what our midfielders are trying to do - we weren't nearly at our best on Sunday but even then, there were several times when one of our players had the ball on one of the wings, but when I looked across at the Spuds box we had no-one coming in to provide a target for a cross - that's absolutely what Eddie should be doing

We need to buy Toney or someone else in January

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Originally Posted by Mac76

but both were at least on target

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I always feel it's unforgiveable to actually miss the target so yes, at least he didn't do that.
They were both pretty weak penalties and very saveable, but on another day the 'keeper goes the wrong way, they both go in and it doesn't even get a mention.

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Originally Posted by Mac76

and one of mine is everyone using the term 'missed' penalty when the shot was on target - weak shot or not, the keeper still has to save it :sulk:

Just found some highlights - the first pel was a weak attempt but you could argue the second was very similar to Saka's on Sunday - when they go in, everyone praises the player for being cheeky or whatever, but when they don't they look dumb

but both were at least on target

also even though the highlights were brief, I'd say I saw Balogun in dangerous positions in the box more times than Eddie was and I still think we should have kept him and sold Eddie

Eddie's thinking and physical pace just aren't quick enough to keep up with what our midfielders are trying to do - we weren't nearly at our best on Sunday but even then, there were several times when one of our players had the ball on one of the wings, but when I looked across at the Spuds box we had no-one coming in to provide a target for a cross - that's absolutely what Eddie should be doing

We need to buy Toney or someone else in January

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I can’t help but feel this opinion of yours is in no small way influenced by bitterness over being penalised whilst playing fantasy football :lol:


The terminology missed penalty does refer to any penalty kick that doesn’t end up in the back of the net. Whether you happen to think that’s harsh or not is kind of academic


Where we clearly differ is that for me the burden of responsibility is on the goal scorer. When you see penalty shootouts in major tournaments, and talking about holding their nerve and pressure they are always talking about the penalty taker rather than the goalkeeper.

Both were poor penalties, I’m sorry but they were. I don’t disagree with you at all about Edward’s poor positioning (I clearly remark about that in my player ratings)….but to this point I haven’t seen any evidence (so far at least) that leads me to believe that selling Balogun was a mistake. The mistake as I see it was not buying a striker

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Originally Posted by Letters

I always feel it's unforgiveable to actually miss the target so yes, at least he didn't do that.
They were both pretty weak penalties and very saveable, but on another day the 'keeper goes the wrong way, they both go in and it doesn't even get a mention.

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Utterly telegraphed, the keeper would have had to have walked away from the goal to take a phone call to not save them

What I will say (and have already said) in Balogun’s defence is that it takes balls to step up and take a penalty when you’ve missed one already (or had it saved so as not to offend a certain individual’s sensibilities) and confidence is a key part of being a goalscorer. He could have hidden away but he didn’t and yeah from the highlights he made himself available. Why I find Nketiah’s last few games odd, because he clearly was getting himself in goal scoring positions before the Everton game but last two league games? Hiding it feels like.

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Originally Posted by 21_GOONER_SALUTE

Newsflash....our clown of a manager is now talking about Toney, I can't even be bothered to watch it

https://www.skysports.com/watch/vide...aditional-no-9

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fascinating - really clever questionning by the journo - you know exactly what he's really asking about - i.e. whether Arteta's effectively left us short up front and will seek to rectify it in Janaury

Arteta knows it too - he has that face of pure anger when the guy starts off, but calms down a bit when he realises the guy isn't going to ask him outright if he'll seek to buy Toney, so he's able to dodge the question

I have to say I couldn’t see any anger there. Slightly quizzical at times, but ultimately what I took from it is, well yes you can see that teams are bringing back the traditional no9 role but there are many different ways of scoring goals. I mean if the reporter really wanted to take a jab at Arteta he would have challenged his assertion that we would have scored more goals if we took our chances, yet the issue is we simply aren’t creating enough chances…so the solution is then to change the system or get a goalscorer who is more efficient at converting the chances we do create.

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Originally Posted by HCZ_Reborn

Utterly telegraphed, the keeper would have had to have walked away from the goal to take a phone call to not save them

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Well, no. ‘Keeper dives early, as they often do, and goes the wrong way and in they go.
But they were penalties and very saveable. A good penalty is basically impossible to save.

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Originally Posted by Letters

Well, no. ‘Keeper dives early, as they often do, and goes the wrong way and in they go.
But they were penalties and very saveable. A good penalty is basically impossible to save.

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As I say telegraphed, keepers often dive early and go the wrong way because the penalty taker has sold them a dummy

Just to buttress the point about penalties not being the barometer for determining a capable striker, here is the last season's highest goal scorer & top striker for the Belgian League defending Champions Royal Antwerp this Saturday in a must win game after Barca humiliated them :haha: .... I mean even I couldn't have bet on them not winning, it was nailed on.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi6F...VycCB2cyByd2Rt

Stop talking crap about penalties you lot!

The calibre of a striker is scoring goals from open play - it is the only metric they should be judged on.

Nketiah in that regard is a waste of space this season.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Stop talking crap about penalties you lot!

The calibre of a striker is scoring goals from open play - it is the only metric they should be judged on.

Nketiah in that regard is a waste of space this season.

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The thing is, taking penalties is a sign of mental strength…being able to keep your composure so whilst scoring from the spot isn’t the most important function of a striker….it does tell you a lot about a players confidence and nerve.

Nketiah I think started the season well because he was getting himself into goal scoring positions, but honestly now it just feels like he’s hiding. And as I admitted at the time, Balogun didn’t hide in that game.

Now we’ve made our bed by keeping Edward, but makes me wish we did have a coach more like Klopp who would put his arm around a player and try and build up their confidence. Arteta isn’t that kind of guy, he’s more likely to blank you in training rather than directly address the issue.

Eddie is never going to be a top goalscorer that’s clear, but he will get more goals if he keeps making himself available and gets himself on the same wave length as players like Odegaard, Saka and Martinelli.

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Originally Posted by KSE Comedy Club

Stop talking crap about penalties you lot!

The calibre of a striker is scoring goals from open play - it is the only metric they should be judged on.

Nketiah in that regard is a waste of space this season.

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Preach brother, preach !!