Wenger Referendum: Yes Or No

[Letters]

People were probably away over Christmas. But in general fewer post when we win.

I meant in this thread in particular. I understand there are long standing reasons why people think we should move on from Wenger but people only post in here after a poor result which makes it look knee jerk and petulant.

[fakeyank]

People don't post when we win because most of us know that it is just pampering over the cracks. And I can't think many wins we had in which we played blinding football.

[Letters]

Those are reasons why people should still post in this thread after a win, but they don't.

There's clearly a debate to be had about Wenger, and most of us think we need to be preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal. In the UK there's a debate to be had about immigration - but it's difficult to have that debate without sounding racist what with UKIP and Farage around. In the same way it's difficult to have a sensible debate about Wenger with people who only post after a defeat and who, at times, use such extreme language about him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Because most fans are reasonable, if we win than we are mollified because above all else we are Arsenal fans and want our club to win, i don't think it changes the mind of anyone that this guy can take us forward. But only a couple of idiots on here actually would prefer us to lose to spite the manager.
But this post is generally fuelled by impassioned negativity and its very easy to see the same old failings when we lose, and whilst we are capable of high minded emotionally unencumbered debate message boards are usually just a way for people to get things off their chest.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Those are reasons why people should still post in this thread after a win, but they don't.

There's clearly a debate to be had about Wenger, and most of us think we need to be preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal. In the UK there's a debate to be had about immigration - but it's difficult to have that debate without sounding racist what with UKIP and Farage around. In the same way it's difficult to have a sensible debate about Wenger with people who only post after a defeat and who, at times, use such extreme language about him.

I think there are dozens of other things that need debating before immigration

[Letters]

I think there are dozens of other things that need debating before immigration

Maybe, but the point about the difficulty of having that debate with Farage around stands.

[Letters]

You lot give it the big one over social media and forums
:lol: Only just seen this.

There goes another ironymeter.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe, but the point about the difficulty of having that debate with Farage around stands.

Well yes but given the genuine maladies affecting the country it's not really even a debate worth having until the real problems are fixed.

[Niall_Quinn]

I meant in this thread in particular. I understand there are long standing reasons why people think we should move on from Wenger but people only post in here after a poor result which makes it look knee jerk and petulant.

Oh right. Hasn't everything that needs to be said been said about a thousand times? This thread, like many others, has become a sounding board for frustration. Even if we went on a run of 20 games unbeaten, does any sane Arsenal fan think we'd win the crucial 21st crunch match that made an actual difference? We'd definitely lose that. So the 20 unbeaten games are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when is all this going to collapse? Wins don't mean anything at this club because we never build on them. However, we often deliver new lows which is lucky because it at least gives us something to talk about. Our winning runs are like a cart accelerating out of control down a boulder strewn hillside. It's always just a matter of time before the whole thing smashes to tiny pieces. You don't really enjoy a ride like that do you? There's no steering wheel, no sense of purpose. And you can even see the rock that's going to kill you way before you hit. And camera crews and journos are camped out waiting because they know what's going to happen too. They already have the copy written, they just need the photos.

[selassie]

Oh right. Hasn't everything that needs to be said been said about a thousand times? This thread, like many others, has become a sounding board for frustration. Even if we went on a run of 20 games unbeaten, does any sane Arsenal fan think we'd win the crucial 21st crunch match that made an actual difference? We'd definitely lose that. So the 20 unbeaten games are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when is all this going to collapse? Wins don't mean anything at this club because we never build on them. However, we often deliver new lows which is lucky because it at least gives us something to talk about. Our winning runs are like a cart accelerating out of control down a boulder strewn hillside. It's always just a matter of time before the whole thing smashes to tiny pieces. You don't really enjoy a ride like that do you? There's no steering wheel, no sense of purpose. And you can even see the rock that's going to kill you way before you hit. And camera crews and journos are camped out waiting because they know what's going to happen too. They already have the copy written, they just need the photos.

:gp:

[selassie]

Those are reasons why people should still post in this thread after a win, but they don't.

There's clearly a debate to be had about Wenger, and most of us think we need to be preparing for a post-Wenger Arsenal. In the UK there's a debate to be had about immigration - but it's difficult to have that debate without sounding racist what with UKIP and Farage around. In the same way it's difficult to have a sensible debate about Wenger with people who only post after a defeat and who, at times, use such extreme language about him.

I don't even think there's a debate to be had anymore TBH. I personally think he's knee deep in it, we have so many issues with this team/squad, whilst we can't point our finger at him and blame him for everything, he's deeply involved in it and quite frankly has nowhere to hide, no more excuses.

For me the debate isn't so much about "does he go?", it's about "when he goes"

[Power n Glory]

I meant in this thread in particular. I understand there are long standing reasons why people think we should move on from Wenger but people only post in here after a poor result which makes it look knee jerk and petulant.

You're probably the only person that sees it as knee jerk.

[fakeyank]

Oh right. Hasn't everything that needs to be said been said about a thousand times? This thread, like many others, has become a sounding board for frustration. Even if we went on a run of 20 games unbeaten, does any sane Arsenal fan think we'd win the crucial 21st crunch match that made an actual difference? We'd definitely lose that. So the 20 unbeaten games are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when is all this going to collapse? Wins don't mean anything at this club because we never build on them. However, we often deliver new lows which is lucky because it at least gives us something to talk about. Our winning runs are like a cart accelerating out of control down a boulder strewn hillside. It's always just a matter of time before the whole thing smashes to tiny pieces. You don't really enjoy a ride like that do you? There's no steering wheel, no sense of purpose. And you can even see the rock that's going to kill you way before you hit. And camera crews and journos are camped out waiting because they know what's going to happen too. They already have the copy written, they just need the photos.

:gp:

[adzzzbatch]

Oh right. Hasn't everything that needs to be said been said about a thousand times? This thread, like many others, has become a sounding board for frustration. Even if we went on a run of 20 games unbeaten, does any sane Arsenal fan think we'd win the crucial 21st crunch match that made an actual difference? We'd definitely lose that. So the 20 unbeaten games are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when is all this going to collapse? Wins don't mean anything at this club because we never build on them. However, we often deliver new lows which is lucky because it at least gives us something to talk about. Our winning runs are like a cart accelerating out of control down a boulder strewn hillside. It's always just a matter of time before the whole thing smashes to tiny pieces. You don't really enjoy a ride like that do you? There's no steering wheel, no sense of purpose. And you can even see the rock that's going to kill you way before you hit. And camera crews and journos are camped out waiting because they know what's going to happen too. They already have the copy written, they just need the photos.

Just a :gp:

[Power n Glory]

If he doesn't spend the money then it goes in a pot to be shared out when the next gang jump overboard. Might as well spend it and see if something works by luck.

We need some money left in the pot for the new manager to create a balanced team. The next guy will inherit a mess if we've got injury prone players on expensive contracts, key players looking for the exit and once promising young players shot to pieces physically and mentally. Emergency funds will be needed so the next guy isn't forced to work with the mess Wenger has created with little room to make improvements.

[Globalgunner]

Oh right. Hasn't everything that needs to be said been said about a thousand times? This thread, like many others, has become a sounding board for frustration. Even if we went on a run of 20 games unbeaten, does any sane Arsenal fan think we'd win the crucial 21st crunch match that made an actual difference? We'd definitely lose that. So the 20 unbeaten games are like, yeah, yeah, yeah, when is all this going to collapse? Wins don't mean anything at this club because we never build on them. However, we often deliver new lows which is lucky because it at least gives us something to talk about. Our winning runs are like a cart accelerating out of control down a boulder strewn hillside. It's always just a matter of time before the whole thing smashes to tiny pieces. You don't really enjoy a ride like that do you? There's no steering wheel, no sense of purpose. And you can even see the rock that's going to kill you way before you hit. And camera crews and journos are camped out waiting because they know what's going to happen too. They already have the copy written, they just need the photos.

Excellent post NQ. Nobody in his right mind could even envisage a cogent case for Wenger staying. It's pretty obvious, he stays because he sees nowhere else for him to go and nothing else for him to do that will deliver the same power and daily satisfaction as being a top flight manager of a upper echelon team. He won't leave easily because he has no internal compass that enables him acknowledge that he is actually holding this club back. We deride Keegan for bailing out when he did but the man has my utmost respect because he acknowledged that it wasn't in him to deliver results, not excitement as that was a Keegan trademark,, but results on a consistently upward trajectory. Wenger is not like this. He sees each individual victory as a vindication of his methods and each failure as a segue of bad luck and bad officiating. We are going nowhere with this man, nowhere. No team coached by Wenger now could ever pull off the once in a lifetime result the Spuds had yesterday. It isn't possible.

[Letters]

We need some money left in the pot for the new manager to create a balanced team. The next guy will inherit a mess if we've got injury prone players on expensive contracts, key players looking for the exit and once promising young players shot to pieces physically and mentally. Emergency funds will be needed so the next guy isn't forced to work with the mess Wenger has created with little room to make improvements.
Is it really that much of a mess? Just last season we won the Cup and finished with 79 points. This season we've taken a massive step back but the core of last season's squad is still there and there's a lot of talent in there. We clearly need more depth at the back but otherwise there's not loads wrong with our squad. I don't buy that we have 'injury prone players', I just think there's something wrong with the training, I don't know if there's stats out there about the injury records of our players before the come to us or after they leave vs their time with us, it would be interesting to see that.

[Marc Overmars]

Injuries have been a massive issue for years now, he's had ample opportunity to find solutions and prepare the squad adequately but nothing changes.

Don't give him cash. Just ride out the season, hope we finish 4th then get rid. Come on Gazidis you cunt.

[Power n Glory]

Is it really that much of a mess? Just last season we won the Cup and finished with 79 points. This season we've taken a massive step back but the core of last season's squad is still there and there's a lot of talent in there. We clearly need more depth at the back but otherwise there's not loads wrong with our squad. I don't buy that we have 'injury prone players', I just think there's something wrong with the training, I don't know if there's stats out there about the injury records of our players before the come to us or after they leave vs their time with us, it would be interesting to see that.

What core will be left in a few years? Think long term. You often say you're worried about life after Wenger so think how much more difficult it will be if we haven't got the funds for the new guy to spend on new players? We have an ageing defence for starters and you don't help yourself by talking about last season compared to this one. What state will we be in when he steps down?

[Letters]

What core will be left in a few years?
Probably the same place we are now, if Wenger's still in charge.
There's been no steady decline, we've just stagnated with a pattern of some seasons of improvement, some of regression.

[topgun]

Injuries have been a massive issue for years now, he's had ample opportunity to find solutions and prepare the squad adequately but nothing changes.

Don't give him cash. Just ride out the season, hope we finish 4th then get rid. Come on Gazidis you cunt.

:gp:

[Power n Glory]

Probably the same place we are now, if Wenger's still in charge.
There's been no steady decline, we've just stagnated with a pattern of some seasons of improvement, some of regression.

So that same old ageing defence?

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Do we even have a single Wenger in guy on here now? :lol:

Even the likes of Ollie and NQ have turned.


Obviously don't want to see sheer abuse like at the train station or confronting him on the pitch, but I'd fully support seeing more polite and respectful banners (like at WBA) calling on him to step down .... e.g. "Thank's for the memories Arsene but it's time to step aside"

[Letters]

So that same old ageing defence?

No, but we'll be in the same basic place. I don't think we'll have significantly improved or regressed.

[Power n Glory]

No, but we'll be in the same basic place. I don't think we'll have significantly improved or regressed.

But with less funds if we try to spend our way out of trouble under Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That depends really...do you have an issue with the players brought in by Wenger in the summer?, the issue was the quantity not the quality.

My only issue with Wenger spending money is bringing in another attacking midfielder to add to the ridiculous number we already have, other than that I don't mind him buying players in the hope that the squad will be decent for whoever replaces Wenger and that person will significantly improve that players on pitch performances

[Power n Glory]

Debuchy and Sanchez are good purchases but I can't be so sure about the others.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fair enough
Chambers concerns me and if Wenger had strengthened the squad like he should have done, the guy would have been dropped by now (still only young, but the jury is out on him I agree)

Welbeck never going to be prolific, but works hard generally and a solid if not spectacular squad player, arguably also played too much as well.

Ospina - I really rate this guy, I'm hoping he gets a run in the team to show his quality because Szczesny is an arrogant toerag whose judgement stinks

[Niall_Quinn]

Ospina has been injured since he got here. Wenger had him diving under lorries on the M1 while trying not to spill a plate of broccoli.

[Letters]

But with less funds if we try to spend our way out of trouble under Wenger.

You can accuse Wenger of many things but over-spending isn't one of them (except on wages).
He's always been very aware of our financial situation and never put us in financial difficulties in the interests of short term.

He is, in some ways, a safe pair of hands. But it's pretty clear we won't make any real progress with him in charge.

[Power n Glory]

You can accuse Wenger of many things but over-spending isn't one of them (except on wages).
He's always been very aware of our financial situation and never put us in financial difficulties in the interests of short term.

He is, in some ways, a safe pair of hands. But it's pretty clear we won't make any real progress with him in charge.

:doh: except on wages!

I don't think Wenger will purposely overspend but there will be pressure on him to spend big this winter and summer.

[Letters]

Yes. Wenger famously listens to advise and caves in to pressure from fans and the media.

[Power n Glory]

Yes. Wenger famously listens to advise and caves in to pressure from fans and the media.

Still so concerned with defending Wenger. :lol:

I'm saying I'm against that call for him to spend more because it won't solve our problems. If he decides to stick his fingers up to the fans and media this winter and summer then you won't hear any complaints from me. We'd be wasting money.

[Letters]

How is me saying he never listens to advice or caves in to pressure defending Wenger?

:)

[Power n Glory]

How is me saying he never listens to advice or caves in to pressure defending Wenger?

:)

Because that's all you seem to be concerned with. Oversensitive to any criticism and jumped in this thread thinking this is more knee jerk reaction stuff when it's not.

You're a guy that often worries about life without Wenger and states the financial advantage other clubs have or how managerial changes can effect a club.....dig a little deeper and try to figure out my concern.

[AFC Leveller]

http://www.101greatgoals.com/blog/arsenal-boss-wenger-amazingly-jokes-about-how-bad-szczesny-koscielny-were-on-mane-goal-video/

[Letters]

jumped in this thread thinking this is more knee jerk reaction stuff when it's not.
That's not what I said actually. I said the fact that people only post in here when we lose makes it look kneejerk although I also said there are obviously long standing reasons for people wanting Wenger to go. I've also repeatedly said we do need to move on from Wenger, I just don't want us to panic and sack him with no plan for what we do next. And yes, I'll defend Wenger when people start overly insulting him or criticizing every single thing he does as though literally nothing he does makes any sense.

I've seen people say that Chelsea and City's infinite money cheat is an 'excuse'. Clearly it isn't. The top two clubs right now are City and Chelsea, miles clear of anyone else. Liverpool managed to muscle in on the party last year in a season when they had no European football and had one player on insane form, even then they fell short in the end. Some on here were hailing Rodgers a genius but they're nowhere near repeating it. The only person who has managed to stop one of the two billionaire-fueled clubs winning the title in the last 10 years is Ferguson who, in my view, is the GOAT in terms of management. That last season he was there...there's just no way they should have won the title with their squad vs City's or Chelsea's yet they won it at a canter. I don't care who our manager is, that problem is always going to be there unless the footballing authorities bother to impose financial fair play regulations that have any bite, which will never happen. All that said, we should be closer to those two with our resources and that is where Wenger is failing.

As for how managerial changes have affected other clubs, Moyes was a disaster for Utd, Van Gaal has had to go nuts in the transfer market to get them back in contention, even then they have no serious chance of the title this year. Spurs have repeatedly got on the managerial merry-go-round trying to break into the top 4 and failed to do so with any consistency. A change of management - especially when a manager has been with a club for so long and is so involved in every aspect of the club - needs to be carefully planned.

We were actually on a pretty good run before the Southampton game. Southampton have lost to City and Utd at home but no-one else, Chelsea only drew there. Losing there is not a disaster although from what I heard we were awful, which is more of a concern. But overall in our last ten games in all competitions our results have been pretty good: W7 D1 L2 (Chelsea's last 10, for comparison, are: W6 D2 L2). This season has been a bit of a fiasco but there have been some signs of improvement of late, if only in terms of results which, ultimately, are what matter. I see no reason to panic and sack Wenger right this second with no plan as to what to do next.

[Gooner23]

We've had years of this mediocrity now, I don't think the criticism is knee jerk any more. I am still happy to see us win, but that doesn't change my overall opinion that we are stagnating under Wenger. He has to go.

[Letters]

I'm not sure how consistently being in the top 4 could be considered mediocre, it's the stagnation and Groundhog Day we need to get out of though.

[fakeyank]

I'm not sure how consistently being in the top 4 could be considered mediocre, it's the stagnation and Groundhog Day we need to get out of though.

For a club of Arsenal's size and resources, I'd call that mediocre. We are stagnating in mediocrity.

[Letters]

For a club of Arsenal's size and resources, I'd call that mediocre. We are stagnating in mediocrity.

We have the 4th biggest resources. I'd call it par.

[Power n Glory]

That's not what I said actually. I said the fact that people only post in here when we lose makes it look kneejerk although I also said there are obviously long standing reasons for people wanting Wenger to go. I've also repeatedly said we do need to move on from Wenger, I just don't want us to panic and sack him with no plan for what we do next. And yes, I'll defend Wenger when people start overly insulting him or criticizing every single thing he does as though literally nothing he does makes any sense.

I've seen people say that Chelsea and City's infinite money cheat is an 'excuse'. Clearly it isn't. The top two clubs right now are City and Chelsea, miles clear of anyone else. Liverpool managed to muscle in on the party last year in a season when they had no European football and had one player on insane form, even then they fell short in the end. Some on here were hailing Rodgers a genius but they're nowhere near repeating it. The only person who has managed to stop one of the two billionaire-fueled clubs winning the title in the last 10 years is Ferguson who, in my view, is the GOAT in terms of management. That last season he was there...there's just no way they should have won the title with their squad vs City's or Chelsea's yet they won it at a canter. I don't care who our manager is, that problem is always going to be there unless the footballing authorities bother to impose financial fair play regulations that have any bite, which will never happen. All that said, we should be closer to those two with our resources and that is where Wenger is failing.

As for how managerial changes have affected other clubs, Moyes was a disaster for Utd, Van Gaal has had to go nuts in the transfer market to get them back in contention, even then they have no serious chance of the title this year. Spurs have repeatedly got on the managerial merry-go-round trying to break into the top 4 and failed to do so with any consistency. A change of management - especially when a manager has been with a club for so long and is so involved in every aspect of the club - needs to be carefully planned.

We were actually on a pretty good run before the Southampton game. Southampton have lost to City and Utd at home but no-one else, Chelsea only drew there. Losing there is not a disaster although from what I heard we were awful, which is more of a concern. But overall in our last ten games in all competitions our results have been pretty good: W7 D1 L2 (Chelsea's last 10, for comparison, are: W6 D2 L2). This season has been a bit of a fiasco but there have been some signs of improvement of late, if only in terms of results which, ultimately, are what matter. I see no reason to panic and sack Wenger right this second with no plan as to what to do next.

Not sure what that rant is about but I get the feeling you're not paying attention to what I'm saying at all.

How are you under the impression that I'm suggesting we sack Wenger with no plan?

[GP]

We have the 4th biggest resources. I'd call it par.

It's all over anyway.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/B6XVP51CYAEgcgn.jpg

[Letters]

Not sure what that rant is about but I get the feeling you're not paying attention to what I'm saying at all.
You started this exchange by completely twisting something I said. And it wasn't a rant, this is Arsenal Debate, it was part of a debate I thought we were having.

How are you under the impression that I'm suggesting we sack Wenger with no plan?
I'm not.

[fakeyank]

We have the 4th biggest resources. I'd call it par.

We generate the 2nd most revenue from day to day matches. Charge no.1 in ticket prices in Britain and possibly no.2 in the world and have a manager whose salary can be seen in my signature (:lol:). Our wage bill is currently more than Chelsea and we have outspent City and Chelsea this window. On top of that, we have had the 'history of a big club' alongside Utd and Liverpool, which City and Chelsea had to catch up to. We also had 'continuity' with the same manager for nearly two decades... thats got to add up to something more than just coming 4th.

[Letters]

We generate the 2nd most revenue from day to day matches. Charge no.1 in ticket prices in Britain and possibly no.2 in the world
OK, but that's not relevant to what I said. It is relevant, I guess, in terms of expectations. If you're paying £60+ to get into the stadium, you arguably have a right to expect more than the crap we're serving up right now. But it doesn't matter where the money comes from, the fact is in terms of total income we have the 4th highest resources so in a sport where success and resources are so highly correlated 4th is about par for us.

We don't have a billionaire backing us (well, we do actually, but he's not backing us! Not financially anyway). In fact that's part of the reason why we have such high ticket prices. We do charge too much, but how else can we even hope to compete when 2 other clubs can do what they like in the transfer market. They don't have to rely on income from anywhere, they have multi-billionaire owners who are clearly hell bent on spending till they achieve success. Chelsea showed that buying success was possible, City showed you can do it with any club if you pump in enough money for long enough. We may have outspent them in one window but the way they've thrown money around in a sustained way, we could never have competed with that. It's only in the last year when the new financial deals were in place that we could sign players like Ozil (who, whatever you think about him, is a different class of player to those we signed of late before that) and Sanchez.

In terms of our wage bill, one thing you need to consider is how the clubs I'm talking about cook the books. Chelsea have a ridiculous number of players on their books who they then loan out to clubs who aren't their rivals, I guess those other clubs then pay their wages. City have gone one better and their owners have bought a whole different club where they can stockpile players. Moan about Wenger all you like, and we certainly have some cause to, but it's incredibly difficult to compete with clubs who can do these sorts of things.

History helps, to an extent, but when City were offering silly wages and signing on fees they were able to sign players we couldn't compete for despite our higher prestige as a club. Continuity helps too but, again, when other clubs can keep on buying players of the quality they've been able to it gets to the point where our squad just isn't good enough to compete and while we've discussed Wenger's frugality there's no way we could have competed with Chelsea or City's spending without getting into serious financial trouble.

My problems with Wenger right now are the awful football, the perennial injury problems which he surely must see is killing us every year but seems unable to do anything about and the fact that our team right now is far less than the sum of its parts. We DO have plenty of quality players and yet we're looking like a very ordinary side so far this season. I don't care that City and Chelsea are ahead of us, although we should be closer to them, but sides like Southampton, Spurs and West Ham shouldn't be anywhere near us. I don't mind us finishing 4th, but I do mind us limping in there and scraping past those sides when with our resources we should be miles ahead of them.

[AFC Leveller]

Would you have considered walking away if you hadn’t won the FA Cup last year?’

Wenger rebuked the question out of hand, and said it didn’t even cross his mind:

To walk where? No. I have just won my 600th game out of 1,000. That means I have won 60 per cent of the games and, after 18 years, it would not be serious to walk away for losing one game. I do my job as well as I can and I respect my contracts.

We didn’t win a trophy for years and of course people want that. As well, 2-0 down after 10 minutes and they nearly scored the third. When you know football, normally that means you have very little chance to win so the fact we could turn it around and win was a fantastic relief.”

He just doesnt get it does he? its not "1 game" you moron its 7-8 years of the same mistakes and nelgligence that has meant your time is up.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Thing is your not going to get an idea of what Wenger thinks from the media, if you admit openly your only still here because you ended your trophy draught then you invite all kinds of pressure and questions on yourself.

I wish people would stop paying so much attention to what l'ouisseau says in press conferences etc, unless you're a shameless media whore like Mourinho the whole thing is so PR managed that there is never likely to be any useful information.

Personally I think with the way things are now, Wenger would have walked if not then certainly by now

[Syn]

Unbelievable that the wrinkly old Faragehating cunt was smoking in the showers with Szczesny. Club is going up in flames. Thank you John Cross for bringing this to our attention.

[selassie]

That depends really...do you have an issue with the players brought in by Wenger in the summer?, the issue was the quantity not the quality.

My only issue with Wenger spending money is bringing in another attacking midfielder to add to the ridiculous number we already have, other than that I don't mind him buying players in the hope that the squad will be decent for whoever replaces Wenger and that person will significantly improve that players on pitch performances

The problem with Wenger is he buys who he likes and not what the squad/team needs. The fact we went into the season with 5 senior first team defenders says it all. He still prioritises "Youth" development over improving the first team with external solutions.

I would honestly rather Wenger leave the squad as it is so the new guy can come in and shape the squad the way he wants to.

We don't need drastic investment, a couple of high class signings and we could be challenging Chelsea and City IMO.

[Injury Time]

We don't need drastic investment, a couple of high class signings and we could be challenging Chelsea and City IMO.
Some say we are 2% away from domination
:run:

[selassie]

Some say we are 2% away from domination
:run:

:D 1%

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rSMLjVqFntk/UbrttzrzvcI/AAAAAAAAAOI/ZOvfqlkd3vY/s1600/arsenewenger_1366817a.jpg

[LDG]

:D 1%

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-rSMLjVqFntk/UbrttzrzvcI/AAAAAAAAAOI/ZOvfqlkd3vY/s1600/arsenewenger_1366817a.jpg

Does my finger smell little bit of itchy bum?

It is possible.

[Niall_Quinn]

Does my finger smell little bit of itchy bum?

It is possible.

He'd best steer clear of the thumb as that has been firmly stuck up his hole all season.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Does my finger smell little bit of itchy bum?

It is possible.

Well to be honest as Long as its not his "come to bed" beckon to Sonia Tatar

[adzzzbatch]

He didn't fuck anything up today, well done arsene.

[Niall_Quinn]

IN!

Definitely.

Until next week...

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Still a Wenger out but if he shows the self awareness to address our problems this January (sign a top quality DM and CB) and that results in a new found defensive resilience then I may just be persuaded to change my mind.

[Letters]

Last 15 games in all competitions:

W12 D1 L2

Hmm. This is the frustrating thing about the whole situation with Wenger. There are times when we do look like a properly good side, one that could challenge the money cheats. Other times we look hopeless.

[Marc Overmars]

Retain the cup and finish top 4 and I'll give him another year.

Otherwise, Wenger out.

[Niall_Quinn]

Last 15 games in all competitions:

W12 D1 L2

Hmm. This is the frustrating thing about the whole situation with Wenger. There are times when we do look like a properly good side, one that could challenge the money cheats. Other times we look hopeless.

L2 :fury:

[selassie]

Wenger should be judged on a results only basis. As things stand we are still in the mix for top 4 and in the FA Cup and CL. I think the bare minimum should be Top 4 finish, preferably 3rd and strong runs in both Cups, basically we should be making the FA Cup final, irrespective of whether we draw Liverpool or United assuming we all progress from the 5th round.

If we achieve top 4 and respectable exits/losses in both of those cups then Wenger should be given the summer to get the squad right and get the players in shape for the upcoming season.

Despite our excellent recent form, to date this season has been write off and we have not consistently performed to the standard required.

Wenger should be judged on the whole season and not on a short period where he fixes up the mess that he created in the first place ;)

[Globalgunner]

The problem with our manager is that he has manage to dampen expectations to the point where getting within wind of 4th looks now like a praiseworthy achievement.
Look where we are in reality. 5th behind a worm riddled team like United, parallel with a kneecapped and neutered Southampton and 2 points ahead of the Crappy Totts.

We are playing well since Xmas but we are far from being in a happy place.
This season we should end up comfortably 3rd otherwise no progress has been made. The FA cup has again been literally thrown in our laps. But before we get the "Wenger knows" bunting out lets get past Monaco and push whoever we get in the QFs all the way. Its bound to be any 1 of Bayern, Barca PSG or either Madrid.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

At the moment as should be expected the Wenger out fervour has died down as results are going for us, whether he can achieve something meaningful in the time he has left is debatable but certainly the 2-0 win over City suggests he isn't quite as dead in the water as was once thought.
Am I disappointed with how the season has gone in its entirety? For sure. I can't even think about the United game without getting angry.
On the other hand if you ask me if I think our squad is better than at any time since 2011 and I was encouraged I would also say yes.

[Niall_Quinn]

I can't even think about the United game without getting angry.

And Southampton. If there were two games we didn't want to fuck up...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Southampton result doesn't even register on the same scale as United, that was a meltdown that made Andy Murrays hissy fit yesterday pale into comparison.
We were genuinely shit on new years day and Southampton could have scored more, against United we dominated from kick off to full time, yet we turned into dunked rich tea biscuits when it came to keeping our nerve and composure.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And Southampton. If there were two games we didn't want to fuck up...
And that is why, despite our current form, I believe we need a change of Manager.

[Master Splinter]

Southampton was an uneventful game in which we gave two dreadful goals away. They are a solid defensive team though and earned their result.

At Stoke we were caught cold by a team who took full advantage of an atrocious selection by WUMger. The damage was done before the match started. And then again in the first thirty seconds.

Swansea was an even game, where we typically failed to take our chances and got punished in the end when they took theirs.

The Spurs and United games were the worst though. We played against a Spurs side devoid of any ideas and didn't seem to have any motivation to beat a team that were there to be beaten. Against United, well, just how the fuck did we manage that?

And do not forget as well Anderlecht.

Wait, is this the Wenger-bashing thread?

What a stupid old, self-harming, stubborn old fuck.

[selassie]

The problem with our manager is that he has manage to dampen expectations to the point where getting within wind of 4th looks now like a praiseworthy achievement.
Look where we are in reality. 5th behind a worm riddled team like United, parallel with a kneecapped and neutered Southampton and 2 points ahead of the Crappy Totts.

We are playing well since Xmas but we are far from being in a happy place.
This season we should end up comfortably 3rd otherwise no progress has been made. The FA cup has again been literally thrown in our laps. But before we get the "Wenger knows" bunting out lets get past Monaco and push whoever we get in the QFs all the way. Its bound to be any 1 of Bayern, Barca PSG or either Madrid.

:gp:

Still plenty left to play for and top 4 is not a gimme yet.

[Power n Glory]

If it weren't for injuries to Ramsey, Wilshere, Ozil and Arteta, I doubt we'd have seen Cazorla, Rosicky and Coquelin getting much game time and they've really helped pull us through along with Sanchez whose had an exceptional season. We've stumbled upon a winning combination and had a one player really carry us through and that doesn't fill me with much confidence for the future.

I've always thought Santi's best position was in the middle and shuffling him out wide just dampens his impact. Rosicky has always been that guy that gets the team really going when we're struggling. I don't know why it's taken injuries to everyone to get him more involved and that applies to Coquelin as well. My position on Wenger hasn't changed. I've seen seasons like this before and the only question in my mind is how Wenger will leave and not when.

[adzzzbatch]

And that is why, despite our current form, I believe we need a change of Manager.

And this is also why I'm not spending any of my money to go and watch this team.

[Xhaka Can’t]

And that is why, despite our current form, I believe we need a change of Manager.

And again.

Fuck the record over the last 15 or 16 games.

Our record over the last 15 or 16 games when it counts against a rival tells you all you need to know about why Wenger has to be sacked..

[adzzzbatch]

And again.

Fuck the record over the last 15 or 16 games.

Our record over the last 15 or 16 games when it counts against a rival tells you all you need to know about why Wenger has to be sacked..

He really killed us today.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger loses the important ones. When he loses he loses to maximum effect.

[Maestro]

You have to hand it to Diego Simeone, what a bastard and real thorn in the ass for Real and Barca ....sorry wrong thread

[Niall_Quinn]

You have to hand it to Diego Simeone, what a bastard and real thorn in the ass for Real and Barca ....sorry wrong thread

Possibly the right thread.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger loses the important ones. When he loses he loses to maximum effect.

He's a useless shite that boy

Punish him for me

[Chippy]

And again.

Fuck the record over the last 15 or 16 games.

Our record over the last 15 or 16 games when it counts against a rival tells you all you need to know about why Wenger has to be sacked..
Arsene is a fucking wind up merchant! I really felt after the City game he had finally woken up! But no, he is still the clueless cunt we thought he was!

[Letters]

And again.

Fuck the record over the last 15 or 16 games.

Our record over the last 15 or 16 games when it counts against a rival tells you all you need to know about why Wenger has to be sacked..
How are you defining a rival or when it counts?

We lost narrowly away to a side in form. It happens. We only lost to their trademark late goal - they've done that with infuriating frequency recently but they won't keep doing it. They haven't lost at home since early November in the league and drawn with ManYoo and beaten Chelsea at home in that time. I can't say too much about our performance. People on here are notoriously negative when we lose - sometimes even when we win. I suspect the match reaction thread is full of pant wetting. A Spurs fan friend said he reckoned they just about deserved to win, he certainly didn't suggest it was a pasting.

In terms of 'when it counts', doesn't it a always count in a league? Until late April, early May there are no especially high pressure game, we lost yesterday but the position is recoverable - midweek Spurs go to Anfield, we're at home vs Leicester. And, as we have always finished top 4, we have always won those games at the end of a season 'when it counts', even if we have rather stumbled over the line at times. In terms of rivals, in the run of good results we've beaten Southampton at home and West Ham away (not traditional rivals, but sides who this year have been a threat to our top 4 position) and City away.

Overall I'm happy enough with what I've seen from us more recently. It's always disappointing to lose, especially at Spurs :sick: but I don't think they'll be above us come May if we keep playing like we have recently.

[Master Splinter]

if we keep playing like we have recently.

This is dependent on WUMger picking the correct team. It would sadly be beneficial to us if Ozil, Welbeck, Wilshere and maybe even the erratic Ramsey stayed injured. He shoe-horns players into areas of the pitch where time and time again they've proven to be ineffective. Walcott, Oxlade, Cazorla and Rosicky will all play less than they should, with form and what they add to the balance and effectiveness of the team not even factoring into it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

How are you defining a rival or when it counts?

We lost narrowly away to a side in form. It happens. We only lost to their trademark late goal - they've done that with infuriating frequency recently but they won't keep doing it. They haven't lost at home since early November in the league and drawn with ManYoo and beaten Chelsea at home in that time. I can't say too much about our performance. People on here are notoriously negative when we lose - sometimes even when we win. I suspect the match reaction thread is full of pant wetting. A Spurs fan friend said he reckoned they just about deserved to win, he certainly didn't suggest it was a pasting.

In terms of 'when it counts', doesn't it a always count in a league? Until late April, early May there are no especially high pressure game, we lost yesterday but the position is recoverable - midweek Spurs go to Anfield, we're at home vs Leicester. And, as we have always finished top 4, we have always won those games at the end of a season 'when it counts', even if we have rather stumbled over the line at times. In terms of rivals, in the run of good results we've beaten Southampton at home and West Ham away (not traditional rivals, but sides who this year have been a threat to our top 4 position) and City away.

Overall I'm happy enough with what I've seen from us more recently. It's always disappointing to lose, especially at Spurs :sick: but I don't think they'll be above us come May if we keep playing like we have recently.

If you are following this Club, it is crystal clear how I am defining it. Whenever we are playing a rival in a match for something both teams need - whether it is the title or fourth you could make a fortune betting against us. We don't show up. Not a surprise because the Manager is never there doing anything. If the camera didn't focus on him, sitting there motionless, slouched in a sulk eminating his defeatist and listless demeanour to the team (which was every time he appeared on camera), you wouldn't, nor would the players notice he was even there.

There were nothing but the same robotic pre-ordained substitutions that paid no regard at all to what was happening, what was needed or who was playing well. We may as well have handed in the time and name of the players to be substituted with the team sheet, then Wenger could have stayed at home.

And make no mistake about it - we were pasted. In that game thread I posted and genuinely meant it when I said other than the scoreline, Tottenham will rarely have had an easier game (or words to that effect).

All games count to some degree, but the games against direct opponents that want what you want - who are you biggest threat - we can't beat them in direct competition.

Not because we aren't capable of beating them - we are. But we just do not have the mentality and fortitude to be counted when it most matters. Everyone can see that because it is that weakness that now defines our Club.

[Niall_Quinn]

If you are following this Club, it is crystal clear how I am defining it. Whenever we are playing a rival in a match for something both teams need - whether it is the title or fourth you could make a fortune betting against us. We don't show up. Not a surprise because the Manager is never there doing anything. If the camera didn't focus on him, sitting there motionless, slouched in a sulk eminating his defeatist and listless demeanour to the team (which was every time he appeared on camera), you wouldn't, nor would the players notice he was even there.

There were nothing but the same robotic pre-ordained substitutions that paid no regard at all to what was happening, what was needed or who was playing well. We may as well have handed in the time and name of the players to be substituted with the team sheet, then Wenger could have stayed at home.

And make no mistake about it - we were pasted. In that game thread I posted and genuinely meant it when I said other than the scoreline, Tottenham will rarely have had an easier game (or words to that effect).

All games count to some degree, but the games against direct opponents that want what you want - who are you biggest threat - we can't beat them in direct competition.

Not because we aren't capable of beating them - we are. But we just do not have the mentality and fortitude to be counted when it most matters. Everyone can see that because it is that weakness that now defines our Club.

Seconded!

Winning and losing yesterday was the difference between seeing a real change in attitude and application as opposed to here we go again, momentum hits a brick wall, nothing has changed at all. Just set out the record on the last few years against the top 6. It's appalling and easily grounds for sacking. No other manager would have survived it.

Even if that wasn't the case, it is not at all acceptable to face off in a derby and get rolled over without a fight. Which is what happened. Not just because we don't turn up for the big games (except once in a blue moon) but also because we don't like getting up early on Saturdays - not even for £100K per week or £8mill a year.

[Niall_Quinn]

People on here are notoriously negative when we lose - sometimes even when we win. I suspect the match reaction thread is full of pant wetting. A Spurs fan friend said he reckoned they just about deserved to win, he certainly didn't suggest it was a pasting.

Your friend is being generous. We were owned from start to finish. Everyone watching could see how badly we were getting pasted down the right and overrun in central midfield. Everyone bar Wenger of course.

Understand - it's not the fact we lost. It's the fact we didn't show up. Just like we didn't show up against Southampton when we needed the 3 points. Same against Utd when we flounced around the place like an animated, dressed lettuce. These are the key games people are speaking about, the ones that decide if we lie 3rd or 6th in the table, above or behind our closest rivals.

Then you think about the fact we DID turn up against the gypos. We know we CAN play well against the top teams, it's not like we don't have it in us. Think about it. That makes it even worse. Some piss taking going on here.

As for Wenger and his bat shit crazed team selections and his complete aversion to consistency and momentum, well that's just Wenger. I think everyone is beyond caring about that now and just accepts it as part and parcel of being a Gooner.

[Maestro]

If you are following this Club, it is crystal clear how I am defining it. Whenever we are playing a rival in a match for something both teams need - whether it is the title or fourth you could make a fortune betting against us. We don't show up. Not a surprise because the Manager is never there doing anything. If the camera didn't focus on him, sitting there motionless, slouched in a sulk eminating his defeatist and listless demeanour to the team (which was every time he appeared on camera), you wouldn't, nor would the players notice he was even there.

There were nothing but the same robotic pre-ordained substitutions that paid no regard at all to what was happening, what was needed or who was playing well. We may as well have handed in the time and name of the players to be substituted with the team sheet, then Wenger could have stayed at home.

And make no mistake about it - we were pasted. In that game thread I posted and genuinely meant it when I said other than the scoreline, Tottenham will rarely have had an easier game (or words to that effect).

All games count to some degree, but the games against direct opponents that want what you want - who are you biggest threat - we can't beat them in direct competition.

Not because we aren't capable of beating them - we are. But we just do not have the mentality and fortitude to be counted when it most matters. Everyone can see that because it is that weakness that now defines our Club.

No other way to put it, great posting.

[Zerlathon]

At present, I'm really not sure how to go.

As things stand, some of Wenger's decisions have left me lost for words, however at the same time we have to really wonder who would replace him.

When things were at their worst, I (as well as many others) was singing Klopp's praises saying that he would be the best person to replace Wenger. Some months on, and he is at the helm of the biggest disaster in European football that I have ever seen.

We really have to be careful on what we wish for.

[AFC Leveller]

At present, I'm really not sure how to go.

As things stand, some of Wenger's decisions have left me lost for words, however at the same time we have to really wonder who would replace him.

When things were at their worst, I (as well as many others) was singing Klopp's praises saying that he would be the best person to replace Wenger. Some months on, and he is at the helm of the biggest disaster in European football that I have ever seen.

We really have to be careful on what we wish for.

I agree with that. Klopp and martinez were touted as the next Arsenal managers but look how far they've gone down? Everton could be in a dog fight and as you saym Dortmund are (or were) last in their league.

[Niall_Quinn]

Also Owen Coyle, where is he now?

[Maestro]

Diego Simeone
A pragmatic, cynical and talented barstad who hates losing. There I said it, he's my flavour of the month ..year etc

[Globalgunner]

We all know that only Wenger can manage Arsenal to any successful degree anyone else is doomed to fail. When he kicks the bucket inevitably, the club will fold.

[Letters]

We all know that only Wenger can manage Arsenal to any successful degree anyone else is doomed to fail. When he kicks the bucket inevitably, the club will fold.

Why bother posting that? Literally no-one has said that.

[AFC Leveller]

Also Owen Coyle, where is he now?

Phil Brown, Moyes, and Coyle were the dog's bollocks once upon a time.

[Niall_Quinn]

Only Wenger can manage Arsenal to any successful degree anyone else is doomed to fail.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's probably been said in board meetings once or twice

[Özim]

We all know that only Wenger can manage Arsenal to any successful degree anyone else is doomed to fail. When he kicks the bucket inevitably, the club will fold.

:lol:

[Özim]

It's probably been said in board meetings once or twice

Rumour has it he is top dog the order is:

Wenger
God
Jesus
Jurgen Klopp

[Niall_Quinn]

Rumour has it he is top dog the order is:

Wenger
Diaby
God
Jesus
Jurgen Klopp

:gp:

[Marc Overmars]

This time last year we were top. 12 months and millions of pounds spent later, we've spent most of the season outside the top 4.

Get rid.

[AFC Leveller]

This time last year we were top. 12 months and millions of pounds spent later, we've spent most of the season outside the top 4.

Get rid.

As well i have to congratulate the players (they) have been fantastic and (showed) resilience in tough moments.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The only one of our players who would have tried to prevent Kitty Genevieves' murder is Alexis Sanchez

[Özim]

This time last year we were top. 12 months and millions of pounds spent later, we've spent most of the season outside the top 4.

Get rid.

He's a great manager if money and making a profit is the only thing that matters, but if it's football that counts forget it, he can't hack it.

[Maestro]

wish the poll on this thread was live. it would have been interesting to see the fluctuations in correlation with team form and results

mods can you make it happen, don't we have a techy IT chap working for GW?

[fakeyank]

I think the people wanting him to go has been fairly constant since the thread started.

[Niall_Quinn]

wish the poll on this thread was live. it would have been interesting to see the fluctuations in correlation with team form and results

mods can you make it happen, don't we have a techy IT chap working for GW?

Wouldn't hold your breath. I'm still waiting to be made a mod, that was meant to happen over a year ago.

[Letters]

mods can you make it happen, don't we have a techy IT chap working for GW?

:lol: We have a couple (including me, sort of), but I don't think we can do that with a vBulliten poll.
It would be interesting to do a re-count every so often though to see how the mood changes, we'd have to do that by starting a new poll each time.

[Power n Glory]

Even if we some how managed to win the league, I wouldn't want Wenger to stay on another season. Would be nice to see him go on a high and win the league it finally win the Champs League.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I agree with that. Even if we somehow won the Champions League, I'd still want Wenger out. I just don't believe he has the capability and/or strategic nous to lead this Club to a domestic title in the climate we are in.

That he can't is partially outside his control as a result of the 'financial doping ' that has taken place over the years,. However in recent times, his failure has just as equally been a consequence of his erratic team choices, unwillingness to adapt and his complete abdication of any in game management responsibilities.

I hope he goes out on a high, but I fear he has missed out on that opportunity unless we can successfully defend the FA Cup. But whatever happens, for the sake of this Club, he has got to go or be pushed.

[Maestro]

just warming it up, just in case

[Niall_Quinn]

I'd duck if I were you...

[Maestro]

this should be the only match reaction thread on this board

[selassie]

De ja vu, same place, same time next season, rinse, repeat.

[Marc Overmars]

In my eyes he lost what little credibility he had left tonight. Not that he was ever accomplished in Europe but tonight proved just how far his stock has fallen.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's been getting done over in Europe for years. Whether it's Henry and Bergkamp or Welbeck and Giroud, didn't matter who the players were Wenger would get found out. Has to be him, he's the only constant.

[adzzzbatch]

De ja vu, same place, same time next season, rinse, repeat.

:gp:

The cycle ends when he goes and that has to be now!

[Globalgunner]

Even with a collection of the most talented players ever assembled by Arsenal in 2000-2004 he was never able to crack the CL, We fluked a final appearance in 2006 and thats as close as its been. Wenger will never win the CL as in any given season there are at least 20 superior managers out there. Note I said managers not teams because a good manager can add at least 20% to a given team with tactics and man management. Prof Cleseau here couldn't manage the Brazil 1970 team to win this cup. If he had Messi in this team. He would play him in midfield with instructions to pass to Giroud.

[AFC Leveller]

He's been getting done over in Europe for years. Whether it's Henry and Bergkamp or Welbeck and Giroud, didn't matter who the players were Wenger would get found out. Has to be him, he's the only constant.

Thats it.

Really lacking in the CL. in the PL, the fact that we have betetr players than most means we can fluke 4th but in the CL, inferior teams have coahces who drill them and set them up to compete, we on the other hand have a clueles manager who has had 18 years to sort himself out with hundres of players from world class to shit and he still makes the same mistakes he did back in 1996.

[Letters]

We fluked a final appearance in 2006.
No we didn't.

[AFC Leveller]

Can someone explain to me how a player like Oscar, younger, skinnier and smaller than Ozil (and inferior) manages to be consistant in the PL, hold up challenges, tackle harder, resist the physical nature and looks like he enjoys it too.

[Letters]

we can fluke 4th.
:lol: How over 38 games do you 'fluke' 4th?!

[AFC Leveller]

:lol: How over 38 games do you 'fluke' 4th?!

We JUST managed to do it on the last day for two years now (and 9 years ago lasagna gate) so i wouldnt say it was comfortable.

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: How over 38 games do you 'fluke' 4th?!

All it has really meant in the last few years is we haven't been quite as ordinary as the shite just behind us. In the cold light what we have in almost a decade is a narrow win in an FA Cup final, a game that could have gone either way. Still counts but with everything we do there's this haphazard nature to it. We're always one step away from catastrophe. Somehow Wenger bundles and shoos them over the line each year like a gaggle of whores with their knickers half down escaping a police raid. It's all so undignified for a supposedly top flight club.

[fakeyank]

Somehow Wenger bundles and shoos them over the line each year like a gaggle of whores with their knickers half down escaping a police raid. It's all so undignified for a supposedly top flight club.

:haha:

[Letters]

All it has really meant in the last few years is we haven't been quite as ordinary as the shite just behind us. In the cold light what we have in almost a decade is a narrow win in an FA Cup final, a game that could have gone either way. Still counts but with everything we do there's this haphazard nature to it. We're always one step away from catastrophe. Somehow Wenger bundles and shoos them over the line each year like a gaggle of whores with their knickers half down escaping a police raid. It's all so undignified for a supposedly top flight club.

:lol: at the bit in bold.

Last year we were comfortable in the top 4, the two years before that it did come down to the last day but both times it was in our hands. We did rather blunder over the line both times but we weren't relying on anyone else. The only time I can remember us being lucky to finish in the top 4 was lasagnagate but that was ages ago.

There are often fine lines in football. Saturday we should have gone 3 nil up when Ozil put Sanchez though, but he missed and then right at the end we nearly threw away 2 points. In the Cup final last year we cleared the ball off the line at 2-0 down, had it gone to 3-0 I doubt we'd have won.

Overall you end up where you deserve to. We have the 4th biggest resources, it's not massively unreasonable to think that 4th is about par for us.

[Injury Time]

:lol: at the bit in bold.

Last year we were comfortable in the top 4, the two years before that it did come down to the last day but both times it was in our hands. We did rather blunder over the line both times but we weren't relying on anyone else. The only time I can remember us being lucky to finish in the top 4 was lasagnagate but that was ages ago.

There are often fine lines in football. Saturday we should have gone 3 nil up when Ozil put Sanchez though, but he missed and then right at the end we nearly threw away 2 points. In the Cup final last year we cleared the ball off the line at 2-0 down, had it gone to 3-0 I doubt we'd have won.

Overall you end up where you deserve to. We have the 4th biggest resources, it's not massively unreasonable to think that 4th is about par for us.
Shame prices and Managers' wages don't reflect that....Oh well it's nice to catch up :ilt:

[fakeyank]

Overall you end up where you deserve to. We have the 4th biggest resources, it's not massively unreasonable to think that 4th is about par for us.

You look at us in terms of resources. I look at us in terms of that ALONG with our ticket prices, managers salary and overall continuity over other clubs. When you look at all these parameters, we should be challenging consistently and not just making excuses of 4th place or regular CL qualification.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Nobody needs to employ revisionist bullshit to reduce either past performances or achievements down to being flukes. We didn't fluke a final appearance, you can't fluke a league position and none of our trophies were flukes.

Even lasagna gate wasn't a fluke. There are 38 games in a season and Tottenham fucking up is a regular occurrence, hardly a fluke.

[Letters]

Arsenal the last team in North London still in Europe.
Wenger in :bow:


:run:

[Niall_Quinn]

One more week of dominance :bow:

[Gooner23]

At least the 4th place trophy is still on now that spuds and pool are out of Europe.

But I don't buy the 4th biggest resources argument anymore. We have enough money to buy the quality of players needed to challenge. Athletico won la liga last season on a fraction of what Barca and Real have spent.

Wenger is holding the club back, no question.

[Letters]

We have enough money to buy the quality of players needed to challenge.

I think we do now, but those new financial deals which allow us to do that have only been in place a couple of years. Even now we can't go mental and spent £100m in a summer like City or Chelsea could. IMO we should be closer to those two, but it's not a disgrace to finish below them.

[Xhaka Can’t]

As for the money side of things, yes we do have enough to get players in to make a challenge. But even then it is difficult. We've spunked a club record on Ozil - this is an expensive mistake. Chelsea, City and to a degree - United can take a hit like that, brush it off and spunk another truckload of cash.

We aren't in that position which is why we need a better quality of manager to launch a challenge.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

Isn't it more like the them, the players shooing their demented Grandma out of the public eye and back into her retirement home after pulling her granny knickers over her head and running around saying in a sinister voice, 'I've still got it'....

At least from the way you speak these days NQ...

[LDG]

I think we do now, but those new financial deals which allow us to do that have only been in place a couple of years. Even now we can't go mental and spent £100m in a summer like City or Chelsea could. IMO we should be closer to those two, but it's not a disgrace to finish below them.

The bloke is good at buying some technically brilliant players, even without megabucks. And had he not ignored the bleeding obvious over the years, money wouldn't have been the huge handicap you say it is.

The money thing (whilst I lauded him for CL on a shoestring) is a complete myth now, backed up by what we're still seeing. And I don't think City etc have that big an advantage anymore as there are only so many players you can buy...they still have clichy FFS.

The stink comes from Wenger hallmarks over each season since The Invincibles.

Poor tactics and prep. Poor injury record. Poor man-management. Failure to buy where it is comepletely obvious it is necessary.

He's beyond defending mate.

[Gooner23]

The bloke is good at buying some technically brilliant players, even without megabucks. And had he not ignored the bleeding obvious over the years, money wouldn't have been the huge handicap you say it is.

The money thing (whilst I lauded him for CL on a shoestring) is a complete myth now, backed up by what we're still seeing. And I don't think City etc have that big an advantage anymore as there are only so many players you can buy...they still have clichy FFS.

The stink comes from Wenger hallmarks over each season since The Invincibles.

Poor tactics and prep. Poor injury record. Poor man-management. Failure to buy where it is comepletely obvious it is necessary.

He's beyond defending mate.

:gp:

With the new financial era Wenger has run out of excuses to hide behind.

I don't expect us to win the league, no one has the right to trophies. But I do expect us to be challenging. We're nowhere near that and it's not good enough.

[Letters]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the money thing'. Money and success are highly correlated in football these days. I'm not even sure I can be bothered backing that up or debating it, just look at where the trophies are ending up. And before anyone pipes up with counter-examples yes, of course there will be counter-examples because there are often fine lines in football, it's not completely deterministic, but there is a clear trend. Chelsea hadn't won the title for what, 50 years before Abramovic came along. City were in the Championship not that long ago, now they're champions. And they're the current top 2 in the table. You do the 'math'. With our squad and resources though, we should be closer.

Wenger has never been able to get us to triumph over better sides, when we were winning trophies left, right and centre it was because we were better than everyone else - arguably even then that side should have won more, we were ridiculously good.

Wenger has his flaws, obviously, but so will the next manager and while we do need to move on from Wenger let's not pretend that we'll be sweeping all before us when the next manager takes over. Unless Financial Fair Play has any bite it will always be difficult to compete with billionaire backed clubs. Fergie did it but he's the GOAT. No-one else has managed it with any consistency.

[LDG]

I'm not sure what you mean by 'the money thing'. Money and success are highly correlated in football these days. I'm not even sure I can be bothered backing that up or debating it, just look at where the trophies are ending up. And before anyone pipes up with counter-examples yes, of course there will be counter-examples because there are often fine lines in football, it's not completely deterministic, but there is a clear trend. Chelsea hadn't won the title for what, 50 years before Abramovic came along. City were in the Championship not that long ago, now they're champions. And they're the current top 2 in the table. You do the 'math'. With our squad and resources though, we should be closer.

Wenger has never been able to get us to triumph over better sides, when we were winning trophies left, right and centre it was because we were better than everyone else - arguably even then that side should have won more, we were ridiculously good.

Wenger has his flaws, obviously, but so will the next manager and while we do need to move on from Wenger let's not pretend that we'll be sweeping all before us when the next manager takes over. Unless Financial Fair Play has any bite it will always be difficult to compete with billionaire backed clubs. Fergie did it but he's the GOAT. No-one else has managed it with any consistency.

Of course they are highly correlated. I don't think anyone doubts that.

And there is a distinct possibility that we could do worse under new management.

But that isn't the point. The point, is that with or without money, Wenger, through his own means, had the chance to win the league on a number of occasions. But, through his own means, he also bungled it all with bells on. Over and over again. The same mistakes.

That's not forgivable. Therefore, the money thing isn't relevant in this case....

[Marc Overmars]

Since 2013 I believe we've spent over 100m net. There's obviously a correlation between money and success but I'm not really sure this is a path we should be going down anymore given our recent outlay and shortcomings as a team.

[Letters]

Since 2013 I believe we've spent over 100m net. There's obviously a correlation between money and success but I'm not really sure this is a path we should be going down anymore given our recent outlay and shortcomings as a team.

There is certainly no excuse for being as crappy as we've been this year, that is true.

[Niall_Quinn]

If you can't find a way to compete with this -> https://flic.kr/p/rameSS

Move on and let somebody else have a go.

[LDG]

If you can't find a way to compete with this -> https://flic.kr/p/rameSS

Move on and let somebody else have a go.

:gp:

[Maestro]

If you can't find a way to compete with this -> https://flic.kr/p/rameSS

Move on and let somebody else have a go.

BLAAAAAAAMMMMM!!!!!

Chuck Kos in there and that's four world class players. Build a decent squad around that and apply some tactics, you're good to go.

Wenget is finished, defending him at this point is just moronic.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

BLAAAAAAAMMMMM!!!!!

Chuck Kos in there and that's four world class players. Build a decent squad around that and apply some tactics, you're good to go.

Wenget is finished, defending him at this point is just moronic.

And yet people still do, whilst the vociferous "Wenger knows best" voice is declining i still don't think there is great appetite amongst the majority of the fan base to see him turfed out.

GW as we have seen in the Wenger referendum thread has pretty much turned on the man, whilst we still enjoy good performances and victories i don't think there is realistically anyone left here who thinks he is the man to take us forward.

At the same time, i do spend enough time on other Arsenal forums to recognise that GW is probably one of the most Anti Wenger boards in existence (this is not to say that people who hold this opinion are wrong, i certainly don't believe he can take us forward), but i think we have to accept that fans that still have a great deal of faith in him aren't just a few deluded individuals...there are a great number of them.

[Niall_Quinn]

Loyalty, or the notion of it. Faithful dogs who lie by the deceased until they starve to death themselves. Loyalty is good, but not when applied to modern football. We've just had a fun week watching the most senior figures in the game feathering their nests in public. What an exhibition. Football's not a thing you want to be wasting loyalty on because it's now in the hands of those who won't give anything back. Nothing, not the steam off their piss. It's difficult for fans who remember tribal loyalty, even more difficult for fans who haven't sussed the game has changed. People aren't idiots for wanting to stick by their club, they just don't realise the club is no longer there. It will take different individuals different amounts of time to let it go. We shouldn't lose respect for the past though because that stuff really happened and we were all part of it. It was the brilliance of that which attracted the money squids and the chavs and the gypos and the Bayerns and Blatters and the spoiled bitches in their £230,000 cars.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Loyalty, or the notion of it. Faithful dogs who lie by the deceased until they starve to death themselves. Loyalty is good, but not when applied to modern football.

All very laudable, however i wasn't discussing the merits of loyalty...merely the reality of the situation.

That as much as we see the necessity of Wenger going as a "no brainer" quite a large amount of the fan base don't quite see it like that.

[Letters]

And yet people still do, whilst the vociferous "Wenger knows best" voice is declining i still don't think there is great appetite amongst the majority of the fan base to see him turfed out.
It is possible to think we need to move on from Wenger and also think he's not a clueless bumbling French ****.
So yes, I will defend him against the worst of the abuse he gets on here.

This season has been a bit of a balls up but we are still 3rd and we're in the FA Cup quarter finals - I was quite bullish about that game until Wednesday, now I fear an all too predictable capitulation but we'll see. After that game we could be 3rd and in the FA Cup semi-finals.

IMO it's a bit harsh the abuse Wenger's getting on here the season after we've just won the FA Cup although he certainly deserves criticism for the way we've contrived to sign well in the summer and still get worse overall. We seem to have been picking up a bit of late (again, until Wednesday) but it's not been good enough.

[Niall_Quinn]

It was fair to give Wenger a chance to get through the stadium move restrictions before making a judgement. It was fair to give him a year when the financial situation eased and a bit of money came on tap. Fair enough to give him a second year to see the results of his spending. Would be idiotic to give him a third because, if anything, the situation is now worse. We have a better squad but we're still blowing the big games we should be winning. Not just last week but that game against Utd, or the painfully predictable draw against Liverpool. Same old problems. It has to be down to the manager. He's the constant.

As a football man he's not a "bumbling idiot", obviously. But on match day, when he's called into action to manage affairs on the pitch too often he's made look a complete idiot by his opposite number. The Monaco coach hauled him through the streets, into the village square, stuck him in the stocks and pelted him with shit in the most recent example. Wenger actually states the players were not mentally prepared. That's not acceptable. You don't need money to be mentally prepared. Chavs and gypo billions don't prevent the team being mentally prepared. Injuries don't prevent it. Refs don't prevent it. He admits he's failed to take care of one of the most basic tasks.

If we want 4th place every season and a run to the last 16 of the CL then we have the right man in charge. We know we'll get that at least (and at most) with Wenger. But what was the point of the stadium move if that's all we're aiming for as a club? The board has to decide what it wants. A nice cosy earner every year or to compete at the top of football. If they are in it for the football then Wenger has to go. If Wenger stays then the fans have their answer.

[Özim]

It is possible to think we need to move on from Wenger and also think he's not a clueless bumbling French ****.
So yes, I will defend him against the worst of the abuse he gets on here.

This season has been a bit of a balls up but we are still 3rd and we're in the FA Cup quarter finals - I was quite bullish about that game until Wednesday, now I fear an all too predictable capitulation but we'll see. After that game we could be 3rd and in the FA Cup semi-finals.

IMO it's a bit harsh the abuse Wenger's getting on here the season after we've just won the FA Cup although he certainly deserves criticism for the way we've contrived to sign well in the summer and still get worse overall. We seem to have been picking up a bit of late (again, until Wednesday) but it's not been good enough.

He's finished can't you see that, time and time again he' been shown up and left wanting, how many more times do you need to see it happen before you finally accept that as a top level manager he can cut it.

I'm tired of seeing these horrible defeats we have to put up with several times a season now, they use to be things we only saw once in a blue moon now they happen several times a season, last season we suffered a fair few humiliations...yes we got 4th, but when you look at the competition and how they have performed it really doesn't say a lot, this season we're 3rd but every team bar Chelsea and Man City have had a season close to disastrous (of those fighting for 4th) by their standards, we owe the fact we're 3rd to the fact it's been a very poor quality PL so far, not to the fact we've played well and earnt it.....when will it all end?

[Globalgunner]

Not being an absolute bumbling idiot is the only tenable defence of Wenger here. Faint, faint praise I think. Whenever the eyes of the world are on Wenger and his team they almost always are guaranteed to balls it up. The whole French nation was probably tuned in to watch that match. If I were him and Giroud I would keep my trap shut for at least 3 months. He has no credibility left even in his home country. No wonder French television dropped him from commentary. People will be asking themselves "What insight can this king of fk ups give us into top flight football".

[Letters]

this season we're 3rd but every team bar Chelsea and Man City have had a season close to disastrous (of those fighting for 4th) by their standards, we owe the fact we're 3rd to the fact it's been a very poor quality PL so far, not to the fact we've played well and earnt it.....
We're all sick of the endless Groundhog Day and we pretty much all agree that we need to move on from Wenger.
But would some of the names being banded around actually be better?

Last season you went on and on about Rodgers but Liverpool have been nowhere this season. They are picking up now so they could yet finish top 4 but they didn't sustain their title challenge to the end last year and they've not challenged this year. Suarez being on insane form and having no European football last year did help them, they've struggled to sustain let alone build on last season.

Klopp was hailed as the answer but this year Dortmund have spent much of this season fighting relegation.

Some people were even touting Moyes a couple of years back :lol:

Wenger is, if nothing else, consistent. I think you underestimate how hard that is. Perennial top 4 finishes aren't the be all and end all - although they were vital in the early days of the Emirates when we had to get the CL income - but he's been a safe pair of hands and will probably continue to be. You seem to be under the impression that Wenger is so clueless that any idiot will come along and be better. I don't believe that's the case.

[Globalgunner]

We're all sick of the endless Groundhog Day and we pretty much all agree that we need to move on from Wenger.
But would some of the names being banded around actually be better?

Last season you went on and on about Rodgers but Liverpool have been nowhere this season. They are picking up now so they could yet finish top 4 but they didn't sustain their title challenge to the end last year and they've not challenged this year. Suarez being on insane form and having no European football last year did help them, they've struggled to sustain let alone build on last season.

Klopp was hailed as the answer but this year Dortmund have spent much of this season fighting relegation.

Some people were even touting Moyes a couple of years back :lol:

Wenger is, if nothing else, consistent. I think you underestimate how hard that is. Perennial top 4 finishes aren't the be all and end all - although they were vital in the early days of the Emirates when we had to get the CL income - but he's been a safe pair of hands and will probably continue to be. You seem to be under the impression that Wenger is so clueless that any idiot will come along and be better. I'm don't believe that's the case.

Your metronomic same as always defence of Wenger as a safe pair of hands convinces few. In fact you and Ollie need to do a name swap as even he has come to see reality for what is is a never ending cycle of running faster to stay in the same place. Few managers are guaranteed to succeed. Ancelotti was great at Milan for a few seasons then stagnated badly and was kicked out. Koeman tanked badly at Valencia. Yet here he is now. Even Moyes, rightly derided after his United debacle is doing better than anyone expected at Sociedad. Bottom line is Wenger is 65, peaked as a manager 10 years ago and is declining rapidly before our very eyes. We could keep spending (frittering) more millions to stay 4th but nowadays that position is mostly a prestige trinket more than anything else. The one thing most people accept is that we will never win the CL under Wenger. He will always be found out in that higher calibre of manager. So our only reason for being it is the money, the prestige and the power of attracting players. Players who will soon move on after seeing our no hoper reality for themselves. We have seen it before. What perturbs me the most is that 4th place no longer guarantees anything. 10 years ago the EPL only had 3 places. The more we tank in Europe along with City and Pool, the more likely we will see us revert to 3 participants only. Everything is transient. We cannot be afraid of failing and so never make a change. Wenger loves this job, left to his own devices he will be here another decade. The excuse that other managers could be worse is not viable. Right now I would take any of 15 coaches in the Premier league ahead of Wenger.

[Letters]

Your metronomic same as always defence of Wenger as a safe pair of hands convinces few.
I'm not trying to convince anyone of that or debating it. He has been a safe pair of hands. We have qualified for the CL every year under him and while I accept we'll never win it under him you say later in your post the 'only' reason for being in it...and then go on to list 3 very important reasons. Clubs are spending silly money to try and break into the top 4 and none have consistently succeeded, apart from Wenger. I think we all agre he is not the right man to push on but it's disrespectful (and clearly untrue) to think that any idiot can do better (I'm not sure if anyone has actually said that but the way people talk about him on hear implies they think that) and Wenger deserves credit for what he's done for us and if he left at the end of the season (I doubt he will) he'd leave us with a very good squad and in great shape financially. I saw today that we have a surplus of over £100m, Utd have debts of over £300m. Wenger has his faults which make us all want to throttle him sometimes but he isn't the clueless buffoon some on here make out.

[Injury Time]

I'm not trying to convince anyone of that or debating it. He has been a safe pair of hands. We have qualified for the CL every year under him and while I accept we'll never win it under him you say later in your post the 'only' reason for being in it...and then go on to list 3 very important reasons. Clubs are spending silly money to try and break into the top 4 and none have consistently succeeded, apart from Wenger. I think we all agre he is not the right man to push on but it's disrespectful (and clearly untrue) to think that any idiot can do better (I'm not sure if anyone has actually said that but the way people talk about him on hear implies they think that) and Wenger deserves credit for what he's done for us and if he left at the end of the season (I doubt he will) he'd leave us with a very good squad and in great shape financially. I saw today that we have a surplus of over £100m, Utd have debts of over £300m. Wenger has his faults which make us all want to throttle him sometimes but he isn't the clueless buffoon some on here make out.

Minus £82m we owe on transfers....
Wenger little bit 2% short of domination

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Right now I would take any of 15 coaches in the Premier league ahead of Wenger

Really?. Now for me that argument smacks of familiarity breeding contempt, that some fans are so bored of how things are currently that they would literally take anyone.

Rodgers is a fraud who is just as tactically naive as Wenger (and just look at the amount of money he's wasted on players)
Pellegrini much the same, filled that City squad with a load of average players since he took over
Mourinho we couldn't have here because his narcassism would destroy any shred of integrity we still maintain to have as a club
Van Gaal is an arrogant fool who is as much of a dinosaur as Wenger in his coaching and training methods (look at the injuries they have, it's no coincidence)
Koeman and Pochetinno have potential but we all said the same about Martinez last season and look how much he's struggling this season

No other manager in the Premier League is even worth mentioning. And you mention Moyes and Real Sociedad?. Firstly that's about the level of club management that Moyes is good for, second of all is he really actually doing that well there?.....this is a team that qualified for the Champions League two seasons ago and hasn't won away from home at all this season.

I'm sick of the same year in, year out......i'm sick of the same mistakes.....but i'm not prepared for things to get worse just for change for changes' sake.

Wenger's time is up, whether it's now or whether he limps on till 2017, but it's not just about getting rid of him it's about bringing someone in who can take us forward.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

And frankly i'd rather keep Wenger till 2017 if it meant getting in someone like Guardiola, than getting rid of him at the end of the season and ending up with someone like Roberto Martinez.

[Globalgunner]

Yes you are right i am familiar with Wengers horseshit and I have nothing but contempt for it. He is doing nothing special. We are the 4th richest team in the EPL and he regularly comes 4th. Why does he deserve special praise for that?. We have never has a history of employing top managers and we somehow have accumulated more titles than anyone except United. So no, we dont have to wait for Guardiola . If Wenger got struck by lightning tomorrow anyone of 15 managers would still get 4th...and we wouldn't regularly get humiliated like we do now.

[Maestro]

amazing how we are lying in 3rd position in the league, within a whisker of 2nd ..after what we consider to have been a poor season so far.

.....:run:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

amazing how we are lying in 3rd position in the league, within a whisker of 2nd ..after what we consider to have been a poor season so far.

.....:run:

I think this season has definitely been worse in terms of performances than results in that, we have won or drawn many games where the performances have been diabolical. However it's all relative because we haven't seen the Monster humiliations like last season.

[Marc Overmars]

We were 3rd this time last year as well but we were also 8 or 9 points better off and involved in the title race.

[Letters]

Yes, just checked (thanks, statto.com) and we were 8 points better off and only a point off the top.
It does feel like it's been a bad season but after the early season gloom we are picking up, we're 3rd, in touching distance of 2nd and in the FA Cup Quarter Finals. It's hardly been a disaster so far.

[rodders]

I think this season has definitely been worse in terms of performances than results in that, we have won or drawn many games where the performances have been diabolical. However it's all relative because we haven't seen the Monster humiliations like last season.

Wait for FA Cup at Man U. On present form I would worry about playing Corinthian Casuals

[Maestro]

We were 3rd this time last year as well but we were also 8 or 9 points better off and involved in the title race.

true, guess the league has been poor overall in general tbh

[Marc Overmars]

Wait for FA Cup at Man U. On present form I would worry about playing Corinthian Casuals

Even if we get past United, we're not stopping the Stevie Me farewell/birthday story tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

The quality of our football has fallen deeper into the shitter and it's hard to believe that was possible following last season's pub antics. We look every bit the English team these days, apart from the odd moment when a bit of football manifests due to the individual abilities of the players, muscle memory I suppose. So it's not a disastrous season, that's stating it too mildly. It's catastrophic and being third has northing to do with it because every team in this league is pub grade shit. Think about it. The chavs and gypos topping the league? Nobody will remember these teams, they are unremarkable. This isn't the Liverpool or Utd or Arsenal of old. It's humiliating to be finish beneath shit like the chavs even if they do have a ton of stolen cash. Chuck in losing to the spuds, gifting Utd a win, pissing it away in the CL when we had a genuine chance to get murdered in the quarters, there's nothing particularly impressive or even mildly interesting going on this season.

I would like to see some decent football. That would do me.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The quality of our football has fallen deeper into the shitter and it's hard to believe that was possible following last season's pub antics. We look every bit the English team these days, apart from the odd moment when a bit of football manifests due to the individual abilities of the players, muscle memory I suppose. So it's not a disastrous season, that's stating it too mildly. It's catastrophic and being third has northing to do with it because every team in this league is pub grade shit. Think about it. The chavs and gypos topping the league? Nobody will remember these teams, they are unremarkable. This isn't the Liverpool or Utd or Arsenal of old. It's humiliating to be finish beneath shit like the chavs even if they do have a ton of stolen cash. Chuck in losing to the spuds, gifting Utd a win, pissing it away in the CL when we had a genuine chance to get murdered in the quarters, there's nothing particularly impressive or even mildly interesting going on this season.

I would like to see some decent football. That would do me.

I genuinely think our malaise in terms of quality is just part of the overall lack of quality in general, i think the whole package of the English premiership being sold as the best league in the world is a big a fraud as selling a Spanish Beach Villa in Zaragoza. But it's not just the premier league, the whole of Europe has become a one or two club procession and it's not just because of the financial disparity (although that is a massive part) it's also because there just isn't quality in depth in football....how many brilliant strikers are there out there, how many brilliant holding midfielders are there etc.
England as a national side is as average as it's always been, but it's retained it's mediocrity despite a massive dip of quality (in the 1990s would a striker like Welbeck who has never been able to hit ten league goals a season be a mainstay in the national side?).
Don't get me wrong what i am saying is well beyond the pro or anti wenger arguments it's about football in general, for decent football to occur you need a larger pool of decent footballers.

[Niall_Quinn]

I'm talking about basics like passing, being able to cross a ball, basic defending, tackling, staying on your feet instead of flying into the air at the slightest touch, the hysteria when a player temporarily achieves the basics. Look at that kid playing for Everton, can't even remember his name but he had the rare ability to look up and hit a cross into the box without hitting the first defender, lofting up a simple catch for the keeper or bashing it to the other corner flag. One for the future, apparently. It's ludicrous.

I want this and I want it now.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glsaOQka-Mg

[Power n Glory]

I genuinely think our malaise in terms of quality is just part of the overall lack of quality in general, i think the whole package of the English premiership being sold as the best league in the world is a big a fraud as selling a Spanish Beach Villa in Zaragoza. But it's not just the premier league, the whole of Europe has become a one or two club procession and it's not just because of the financial disparity (although that is a massive part) it's also because there just isn't quality in depth in football....how many brilliant strikers are there out there, how many brilliant holding midfielders are there etc.
England as a national side is as average as it's always been, but it's retained it's mediocrity despite a massive dip of quality (in the 1990s would a striker like Welbeck who has never been able to hit ten league goals a season be a mainstay in the national side?).
Don't get me wrong what i am saying is well beyond the pro or anti wenger arguments it's about football in general, for decent football to occur you need a larger pool of decent footballers.

I think the talent and quality is there but it all gets gobbled up by elite clubs so you don't see a spread of talent anymore and it's done all so quickly. Just look how quickly James Rodriguez was snapped up by Real and that young kid they just bought. Any sign of talent gets snapped up before a player can really make a name for himself under the smaller club these days.

Also, the desire for clubs to have a 11 superstar players in every position just stifles creativity. Back in the 90s/00s you had one or two magical players at one team with specific roles. Then Real Madrid decided to shove Zidance, Figo, Raul, Beckham and Ronaldo into one team. Why the heck would Ronaldo need to do the sort of magic he pulled at Inter and drop deep when you have a long ball specialist like Beckham that can create a goal scoring from the halfway line? How does a player like that effect Figo and Zidane? Now we have teams like Barca with Messi, Neymar and Suarez in one squad. It stifles creativity and just makes players lazy. It's not just the super rich that do it either. We do it ourselves when trying to play little attacking midfielders in every possible position. It kills creativity and you only get to see a fraction of what an individual can do.

[Letters]

Quiet in here today :whistle:

[LDG]

:banghead:

[Marc Overmars]

As I've previously said, retain the cup, otherwise Wenger out.

[Niall_Quinn]

I hope some of you are hanging your heads in shame after last night. :sulk:

[GP]

No excuse not to win the cup now. Just pub team filth left.

[Maestro]

maybe we should keep him now ....:trophy:

:run:

[Power n Glory]

As I've previously said, retain the cup, otherwise Wenger out.

Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

Perhaps. But maybe this result will encourage Letters to relax his hate campaign against the guy, just a touch.

[Bumble]

Wenger isn't going anywhere until his contract finishes... they aren't going to get rid of him if he retains the FA Cup and finish 3rd. Which is actually a pretty good season, especially if we can pull off the miracle of Monaco.

[Power n Glory]

I actually think he has another contract extension in him.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

I don't think I'd be churlish enough to complain after 9 years without a trophy to then see 2 come around in successive seasons. However I do acknowledge we're not going to improve much in the league or CL with him and that is ultimately our long term goal which he can't deliver. So on that basis, Wenger out.

[Xhaka Can’t]

It is all about the League for me. The CL is gravy.

[fakeyank]

Still has to go at the end of the season. You know what might make me reconsider my position? 3 things:
- Challenge for the PL till the last day of the season or at least the last month
- Have a realistic chance of winning the Champions League or being one of the big dogs
- Beating Chelsea under Mourinho

The first two are not going to happen this season. I would be ecstatic with the last one... IF AW can come up with a game plan to defeat Chelsea, then that means we have seriously made progress.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Or it could be another great tactical masterstroke by the. Special needs one to keep Wenger in hos post.

[fakeyank]

Hopefully that masterstroke also means they somehow not win the title. I think I'd prefer to see Tottenham win it over those scums.

[Marc Overmars]

Hopefully that masterstroke also means they somehow not win the title. I think I'd prefer to see Tottenham win it over those scums.

You really wouldn't.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think I'd be churlish enough to complain after 9 years without a trophy to then see 2 come around in successive seasons. However I do acknowledge we're not going to improve much in the league or CL with him and that is ultimately our long term goal which he can't deliver. So on that basis, Wenger out.

I'd rather see him go out on a high and applauded rather than go out to round of boos.

The league is getting tougher, more teams are getting money and I don't think Wenger will be able to stand up to the challenge for much longer. We're lucky Man Utd and Liverpool aren't having the best of seasons but that will only last for so long and that's just in regards to the top 4, forget the title race.

The real danger is waiting too long for a change and trying to make the transition at a time where our rivals have managers settled in their roles with strong teams built and consistently being able to push for the top 4.

[Power n Glory]

Hopefully that masterstroke also means they somehow not win the title. I think I'd prefer to see Tottenham win it over those scums.

No way. You're on your own.

[LDG]

Hopefully that masterstroke also means they somehow not win the title. I think I'd prefer to see Tottenham win it over those scums.

:sick:

No way dude.

[Letters]

Should ban fy for that really

[Marc Overmars]

The only time I'd ever favour a Spurs win is if we needed them to get a result that would benefit us, otherwise I'd happily see them lose every single game until the end of time.

[Letters]

The only time I'd ever favour a Spurs win is if we needed them to get a result that would benefit us, otherwise I'd happily see them lose every single game until the end of time.

It was weird that season when we needed them to do us a favour at OT on the last day and went ahead to loud cheers at Highbury :lol:
They cocked it up for us, obviously <_<

[Globalgunner]

Sacrilege! To the stake with him!

Spuds, Stlll remember Sheringham deliberately missing a penalty while playing for West Ham.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't know, Spurs are Spurs and it's always fun to laugh at their pitfalls, but to be honest i think most of us would honestly say that if we didn't support Arsenal we wouldn't hate Spurs.

Chelsea and their manager however are a cancer on football, and for them to lose games for me is not only a good thing, it feels like a victory for football.

I don't think the possibility of having to stomach Spurs winning the title is something we have to ponder on too much, it's about as likely as Lord Lucan handing himself in at Kensington Police Station.

[Letters]

I don't mind Spurs fans, in the main. In temperament most of them are quite similar to us, they just wear a different colour. But as a club...I'm still far more annoyed when they win than Chelsea. At least with the latter I can dismiss anything they do as bought with dirty money.

[fakeyank]

I don't know, Spurs are Spurs and it's always fun to laugh at their pitfalls, but to be honest i think most of us would honestly say that if we didn't support Arsenal we wouldn't hate Spurs.

Chelsea and their manager however are a cancer on football, and for them to lose games for me is not only a good thing, it feels like a victory for football.

I don't think the possibility of having to stomach Spurs winning the title is something we have to ponder on too much, it's about as likely as Lord Lucan handing himself in at Kensington Police Station.

:gp:

Pretty much. Me not being from 'the area', I do not have the inherent born hatred for Spurs. I do despise them since its a part and parcel of being an Arsenal fan but Chelsea are really what is wrong with football- corrupt owner, biggest douchebag of a manager, racist captain and fans, divers, glory hunting and racist fans. There really is nothing good about that club... I think if Roman goes bankrupt, the satellites will actually have pictures of the earth smiling!

[Letters]

Still has to go at the end of the season. You know what might make me reconsider my position? 3 things:
- Challenge for the PL till the last day of the season or at least the last month
- Have a realistic chance of winning the Champions League or being one of the big dogs
- Beating Chelsea under Mourinho

The first two are not going to happen this season. I would be ecstatic with the last one... IF AW can come up with a game plan to defeat Chelsea, then that means we have seriously made progress.
I think that's a pretty reasonable position, but I don't think Wenger deserves the abuse you give him.

I don't know what to make of this season, we started so poorly and even recently we've been pub-teaming it a bit but the two results in Manchester have been outstanding. It's the first time for years we've won games like that, especially on Monday when it was against a rival in game which really mattered. The accepted wisdom, with some justification, is we always lose those games. Was it a sign that maybe we're finally getting over that mental block? Especially after last season when as much as we wobbled in the semi-final and final we did manage to finish the job and win the Cup.
It's been a confusing season because till recently I've had said we look worse this year, but there have been a couple of signs of progress in terms of winning these 'must win' games.
What we do need to do - and that comes back to your point about a title challenge - is sustain this sort of form over a whole season.

[Letters]

Oh, and winning the Cup or not is far too simplistic a way of deciding Wenger's fate, IMO.
There are such fine lines in football, if we get to the final (we had bloody better!) and play Liverpool, on current form that's a game which could go either way.
We could play very well and lose because of a poor decision, a lucky deflesction or just good play by the opposition, that's no basis for sacking a manger or not.

[Heisenberg]

Oh, and winning the Cup or not is far too simplistic a way of deciding Wenger's fate, IMO.
There are such fine lines in football, if we get to the final (we had bloody better!) and play Liverpool, on current form that's a game which could go either way.
We could play very well and lose because of a poor decision, a lucky deflesction or just good play by the opposition, that's no basis for sacking a manger or not.
I completely agree. By the same token, the argument for Wenger to stand down sooner rather than later still stands even if we win the cup again. If there are systemic issues in the team and his management, winning a trophy like the cup (however pleasant, and it is very pleasant) doesn't solve the underlying issues, it only papers over the cracks. What should determine his fate are things like his ability to strategise and motivate for the big games, being able to sign players that we need and challenge seriously for titles.

[Letters]

I completely agree. By the same token, the argument for Wenger to stand down sooner rather than later still stands even if we win the cup again. If there are systemic issues in the team and his management, winning a trophy like the cup (however pleasant, and it is very pleasant) doesn't solve the underlying issues, it only papers over the cracks. What should determine his fate are things like his ability to strategise and motivate for the big games, being able to sign players that we need and challenge seriously for titles.
Wouldn't winning the cup 2 years in a row show that some of those underlying issues are getting better? Last year we managed to win the thing, getting the 'no trophies' monkey off our back and finally managing to finish the job in a competition. This year if we win it we'd have that again and we've had to play Utd at Old Trafford on the way, exactly the sort of game which we 'always bottle it' in. There are some tentative signs that some of the old mental frailties are getting better. Agree with FY that we need to mount a sustained title challenge, but things like this are a sign that we might be able to do that.

[Heisenberg]

Absolutely. We've also won away in big games now, which we hadn't for a while, including getting the United curse off our backs. If we win the cup again and qualify for the CL, it'll be hard to argue against giving AW another year, for me.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It'll be hard to argue against giving AW another year, for me.

I love how completely and utterly academic that statement is.

[Heisenberg]

Almost like it's just a fan's perspective.

[selassie]

He should go at the end of the season regardless of what happens. We need a new man in charge with fresh ideas.

[Niall_Quinn]

How come he's still here? He's clearly been voted out!

46 - 14

The 14 being idiots who simply don't get it - though in my defence I thought it would be different this season now we have a few quid.

[AFC Leveller]

If you cant drive, giving you money to buy a better car wont help.

New driver needed.

Thanks.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Are we heading for a Wexit in this referendum?

[Marc Overmars]

weve mayde pogwess

[topgun]

How come he's still here? He's clearly been voted out!

46 - 14

The 14 being idiots who simply don't get it - though in my defence I thought it would be different this season now we have a few quid.

Not even the money could make me feel different,the club has reached a plateau under Wenger,and the board are happy with there lot.Its the fans and people outside the club that can see we are within touching distance of being able to challenge for the top honor's but we just won't take the action to get there.The club is in a comfort zone plenty of money coming in not too much going out top four every season a cup success here and there,what's there to change,if it's not broke don't fix it seems to be the order of the day.

[Özim]

Who the hell are these fans who turn up to matches and still support Wenger, well I know one is that deluded bloke who is convinced he's the best thing since sliced bread and we're world beaters and only handicapped by bad luck and refereeing, the other is his accountant mate with every excuse under the sun as to why we should be grateful that we're in such a great position, but who are the others?

[Maestro]

It is sad to see such an iconic figure for this club descend into a perma-state of myopic incompetence, relative to our aspirations of course. Would have loved to see him bow out with some dignity and respect, but that is fast disappearing as he becomes the subject if ridicule from quite a few quarters now.

It's a damn shame ...but I have no sympathy for the criticism aimed at him now, if he had any decency and respect for this club he would have walked, pleading ignorance and acting oblivious to the bleeding obvious is no longer an excuse for him ...and not forgetting that greedy owner/board of ours.

Let 'em all have it, the fuckers have profiteered off our emotional investment for long enough. Let the proverbial shit hit the fan, and land where it will, and stick.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Just go.

[selassie]

Thought he should have gone a couple of seasons ago and I still want him gone now. My opinion is that Wenger is still too "wedded" in his own principles. From a results only basis I think we could do better with a more pragmatic Manager in charge. I also feel that Wenger isn't using his resources correctly, he has money and isn't spending it in the areas that it needs spending. He is also not making use of his squad efficiently, does he even know his strongest XI and where to play them?

He may think he is right and has the experience in the game to prove people wrong but the fact are that he's made minimal progress in terms of our clubs league position.

Wenger out.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Who the hell are these fans who turn up to matches and still support Wenger, well I know one is that deluded bloke who is convinced he's the best thing since sliced bread and we're world beaters and only handicapped by bad luck and refereeing, the other is his accountant mate with every excuse under the sun as to why we should be grateful that we're in such a great position, but who are the others?

I don't know what would you have people do, having gone to a few games last season I can only remember there being support from the fans directed at Wenger personally and that was the 4-1 game over Newcastle a week after the muppets at Stoke Train station.
The enthusiasm of the crowd is directed towards the team and yeah frankly there is no sense in going to a game with the intent of being miserable and hectoring.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just go.

Where have you been you beautiful man?. I've missed you and your silly remarks

[Niall_Quinn]

Where have you been you beautiful man?. I've missed you and your silly remarks

Gay

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Gay

The politically correct term is poofter

[Dein-machine]

I don't know what would you have people do, having gone to a few games last season I can only remember there being support from the fans directed at Wenger personally and that was the 4-1 game over Newcastle a week after the muppets at Stoke Train station.
The enthusiasm of the crowd is directed towards the team and yeah frankly there is no sense in going to a game with the intent of being miserable and hectoring.

I think a lot of us goes to games knowing we're going to be miserable. That's fine if your a Spud or a Newcastle fan but they're not sitting on £200 mill in the bank with a manager who has no idea how to spend it, paying the highest ticket prices in the league, that 10 years ago were being talked about as the best team in Europe.
Anyone could manage that team now & get results similar if not better to him. He is simply a very average football manager - whilst he's around we're simply going to be a very average team as the 3 results this season have proved.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Was it you that said that Tony Pulis could do a better job than Wenger?

I'm not pro Wenger by any stretch of the imagination but that is patently ridiculous.

An average manager would not be getting us top four season in, season out. It's not good enough that it appears that it's all he is willing to go for and the board won't pressure him into achieving any more than.

I think Wenger is far too entrenched, stubborn and given too much carte Blanche to do what he thinks is best to get the best from our squad and our financial status.
Henry said on Monday night to counter Gary Neville that it's Wengers belief that the teams he puts together can take on all comers with the quality of their game, the belief overrides common sense.

We aren't Man City, therefore we need someone better than Pellegrini....

[fakeyank]

Was it you that said that Tony Pulis could do a better job than Wenger?

I'm not pro Wenger by any stretch of the imagination but that is patently ridiculous.

An average manager would not be getting us top four season in, season out. It's not good enough that it appears that it's all he is willing to go for and the board won't pressure him into achieving any more than.

I think Wenger is far too entrenched, stubborn and given too much carte Blanche to do what he thinks is best to get the best from our squad and our financial status.
Henry said on Monday night to counter Gary Neville that it's Wengers belief that the teams he puts together can take on all comers with the quality of their game, the belief overrides common sense.

We aren't Man City, therefore we need someone better than Pellegrini....

Above average then?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think a lot of us goes to games knowing we're going to be miserable. .

I don't really know that's true, I think there is generally a positive vibe outside the Emirates on match days rather than the gallows humour attributable to the Geordie fans.
I went to the Dortmund game in midweek last November three days after we were beaten at home by United in what was for me one of the most inexcusable fuck ups of Wengers reign, but the atmosphere was electric inside the stadium.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Above average then?

I think Wenger is at the same level as Pellegrini and Van Gaal as they are currently. Van Gaal is actually very similar to Wenger at present in that he is a bit of a dinosaur, can be tactically shown up and is incredibly stubborn and myopic.

The difference is Van Gaal will probably have gone whilst Wenger is still there at Arsenal.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Where have you been you beautiful man?. I've missed you and your silly remarks

Was only logical that one of us took a step back and spared the forum of incessant pontification, and wishy washy comments.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Was only logical that one of us took a step back and spared the forum of incessant pontification, and wishy washy comments.

You shouldn't be so hard on yourself

Your comments were moronic but they weren't wishy washy

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Do carry on pretending to be what you aren't, Mr. pseudo intellect.

No forum rule breach in that, tbf.

[fakeyank]

I think Wenger is at the same level as Pellegrini and Van Gaal as they are currently. Van Gaal is actually very similar to Wenger at present in that he is a bit of a dinosaur, can be tactically shown up and is incredibly stubborn and myopic.

The difference is Van Gaal will probably have gone whilst Wenger is still there at Arsenal.

So they are all above average?

Personally I rate Pelligrini higher than Wenger at this moment. If you were to go into trophies won, then Van Gaal is head and shoulders above Wenger and Pelligrini.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So they are all above average?

Personally I rate Pelligrini higher than Wenger at this moment. If you were to go into trophies won, then Van Gaal is head and shoulders above Wenger and Pelligrini.

I'm only talking currently, Pellegrini has a squad that managers of his calibre could win the title with

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Do carry on pretending to be what you aren't, Mr. pseudo intellect.

No forum rule breach in that, tbf.

I'm confused what am I pretending to be

I always thought as far as you were concerned that I was a Wenger knows best, because I was of the opinion that if you want Wenger out you should have a credible idea of whom you'd replace him with. It's not to say there aren't credible alternatives that's patently untrue, but the attitude of anyone but Wenger will do is moronic.

By the way you're not really proving me wrong by going with the ad hominem angle.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Still posting the same disingenuous crap too, eh?

Like I said, carry on, Mr. pseudo intellect.

[Niall_Quinn]

Anyone but Wenger will do!

[Maestro]

great luv in on here, i want a piece. sure beats this arsenal and wenger shit all over this board

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Still posting the same disingenuous crap too, eh?

Like I said, carry on, Mr. pseudo intellect.

I think I was doing what all nostalgic people do...crying for the moon

You're no where near as fun as I remembered you were....oh well

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Anyone but Wenger will do!

Not you too?.

Did we learn nothing from Moyes going to United?.

To be honest before we get rid of Wenger we would need to get rid of the board who have placed no kind of oversight over what he does.

[Maestro]

Anyone but Wenger will do!

that's just moronic, and stop going fishing with that ad hominem angle

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

that's just moronic, and stop going fishing with that ad hominem angle

Behave yourself <_<

[Niall_Quinn]

that's just moronic, and stop going fishing with that ad hominem angle

MOYES IN!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He's got the sallow complexion of an alcoholic....we'd be paying for his rehabilitation along with Gazza

[Maestro]

MOYES IN!

now I fear you're turning into the man of only one book, with the same ab homine unius libre fishing angle

just stop it NQ before the pseudo intellect police get me, don't want to catch another case so soon after my run in with the very PC race relations police the other week

[GP]

RIOCH IN!

[fakeyank]

I'm only talking currently, Pellegrini has a squad that managers of his calibre could win the title with

He won one title already and on the basis of 3 games, they are strong contenders this season. And his squad barring Aguero are not significantly better than ours. Currently he is definitely higher than Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He won one title already and on the basis of 3 games, they are strong contenders this season. And his squad barring Aguero are not significantly better than ours. Currently he is definitely higher than Wenger.

Their squad is far more balanced than ours....which is of course Wengers fault but you suspect Pellegrini doesn't have the same control over the club Wenger has at Arsenal.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

He won one title already and on the basis of 3 games, they are strong contenders this season. And his squad barring Aguero are not significantly better than ours. Currently he is definitely higher than Wenger.

Their squad is far more balanced than ours....which is of course Wengers fault but you suspect Pellegrini doesn't have the same control over the club Wenger has at Arsenal.

[Kano]

He won one title already and on the basis of 3 games, they are strong contenders this season. And his squad barring Aguero are not significantly better than ours. Currently he is definitely higher than Wenger.

What do you base that comparison of the two squads on? Suitability to this league or pass completion rate?

[fakeyank]

What do you base that comparison of the two squads on? Suitability to this league or pass completion rate?

In terms of personnel, our defenders are as good as theirs.. they may shade it a tiny bit.

In midfield, I think we have better players than them when you look at Ozil, Santi, Ramsey and Coq.

In attack, we have Sanchez who is as influential as Aguero. Their back up strikers are pretty shit... Bony is frankly as good as Giroud and I cant even think of who their other forward is!

Our current GK at least on paper is as good as theirs.

Where they are significantly better than us is how their team is set up and their tactics. We have a very good squad, that is being under utilized heavily. Players like Ox and Walcott need to be getting more games, we need to be moving the ball quickly, we need to be altering our formations- play 2 strikers up front if necessary etc. Wenger does the same shit every season and expect different results.

[Kano]

You are insane.

[Power n Glory]

You are insane.

I agree.

[fakeyank]

You are insane.

Backed up by a solid argument. I cant help but change my mind and agree with you.

[Marc Overmars]

They have a stronger attack on the basis of Aguero. I don't think our midfield is particularly better than theirs either. Are Ramsey, Coq and Ozil/Cazorla really better than Yaya, Fernandinho and Silva? A title winning midfield?

Defensively they were shit last year but I know who I'd wager on to improve most in this area...and it's not us.

[GP]

Cech is an order of magnitude better than Hart, though.

[Niall_Quinn]

Are Ramsey, Coq and Ozil/Cazorla really better than Yaya, Fernandinho and Silva? A title winning midfield?

By a magnitude. No doubt about it.

But we have a codpiece for a manager so it doesn't really matter who we have in the squad as he's quite capable of turning anyone to shite.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't think there's loads in it, but I do think they get a lot more from their key players than we do with ours.

Whether that's the fault of the manager or our guys not being as good as we think is up for debate.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think the debate is long over. So many teams, a stream of different players, same result over and over. One constant.

[fakeyank]

They have a stronger attack on the basis of Aguero. I don't think our midfield is particularly better than theirs either. Are Ramsey, Coq and Ozil/Cazorla really better than Yaya, Fernandinho and Silva? A title winning midfield?

Defensively they were shit last year but I know who I'd wager on to improve most in this area...and it's not us.

I do think our midfield is better than theirs IF the right players are played in the right positions. Mind you, I am not saying we are better by miles but I do think we are slightly better than theirs.

Like I said, there isnt much difference. May be City shade us a tiny bit overall but no way are they leagues above us. The difference is the manager.

[Penguin]

I do think their midfield is better than ours, but not by that much. Having a world class striker like Aguero in front of them makes a big difference. The better the players in front of them, the more playmakers thrive.

In our case, having an average striker with no pace up front, and a CM with no pace on the right makes our midfield look a lot worse than it actually is.

[selassie]

I do think our midfield is better than theirs IF the right players are played in the right positions. Mind you, I am not saying we are better by miles but I do think we are slightly better than theirs.

Like I said, there isnt much difference. May be City shade us a tiny bit overall but no way are they leagues above us. The difference is the manager.

The problem is Wenger never plays our players in the right position so it kind of ends the argument about whether our midfield is better than theirs.

As said by another poster, their squad is just far more balanced than ours, they have bought specific players for specific roles.