Wenger Referendum: Yes Or No

[Maestro]

Do you still want him here or not? Simple question, no long nonsense, explanations, caveats, conditions or variables. Just simply how you feel, do you still want Arsene to be our manager.

PS* To the smart farts out there, I know he's got a three year contract and we cannot sack him or make him stay.

[Ollie the Optimist]

No.


The man will always be a hero and a legend, in five/ten/twenty years we will look back and marvel at the wonders he did for our club, however I just can't take the same mistakes being made anymore and the knowing of what will happen in big games before they kick off. As much as it pains me to say it, Arsene thanks for the memories, but its time to say goodbye

[Maestro]

Fair enough, I've made a public poll for the thread. Be brave enough and vote folks.

[AFC Leveller]

Time to go.

Gille Grimandi said to a French TV station last season (before he signed and extention) that Wenger would stay because his dream is to win the CL with Arsenal. IMO the man has ovestayed his welcome and has had 17 seasons to achieve his dream. In chasing his dream/obsession, he is ruining all of his good memories with us.

[Xhaka Can’t]

No

[Injury Time]

Time to go.

Gille Grimandi said to a French TV station last season (before he signed and extention) that Wenger would stay because his dream is to win the CL with Arsenal. IMO the man has ovestayed his welcome and has had 17 seasons to achieve his dream. In chasing his dream/obsession, he is ruining all of his good memories with us.
Win the champs lge :haha:

On topic honestly ask me after Spufs match :shrug:

[Syn]

Keep wavering between yes and no. I thought last season that if he won a trophy and spent a bit in the transfer window, he deserved a chance to see what he could do. The landscape has changed and under no circumstances do I expect us to challenge the Man City and Chrlsea squads right now. But player and reputation wise this is as good a squad as Wenger has had for a long, long time. A 100 cap German with a near 1 in 2 goal scoring record can't get a game for us. We've got the players to play better than we are. But looking at what Klopp is able to extract from his (less able and established) players, you can't help but feel Wenger's been shown up a bit. As the OP says, Wenger will be staying regardless but I would've given him this season because he met my requirements for last season

edit: nice to see you posting Maestro, stick around.

[Letters]

A 100 cap German with a near 1 in 2 goal scoring record can't get a game for us.
Not with Sanogo in the squad :cool:




:ilt:

[Marc Overmars]

Time to go.

Gille Grimandi said to a French TV station last season (before he signed and extention) that Wenger would stay because his dream is to win the CL with Arsenal. IMO the man has ovestayed his welcome and has had 17 seasons to achieve his dream. In chasing his dream/obsession, he is ruining all of his good memories with us.

He's had 17 years to crack it but we're as far away as we've ever been from being contenders. A European lightweight if there ever was one.

[Injury Time]

Not with Sanogo in the squad :cool:




:ilt:
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!
SHUT UP! SHUT UP! SHUT UP!

[Xhaka Can’t]

Not with Sanogo in the squad :cool:




:ilt:
:lol:

[fakeyank]

Needs to go.

I'd keep an eye on this thread once we go through the yearly 8-9 unbeaten run. There will be an upswing for him to stay then. :lol:

[Letters]

Needs to go.

I'd keep an eye on this thread once we go through the yearly 8-9 unbeaten run. There will be an upswing for him to stay then. :lol:
:lol:

To be fair it was only a few months ago we won the Cup and seemed to be signing some decent players in the summer.
I thing most people thought he deserved a chance then.
As crap as we've been this season so far we have only lost one game and only got one really poor result, at Leicester.

It was the manner of the defeat on Tuesday that upset me, we looked so hopelessly out of our depth.

[Özil's Panoramic View]

Been saying it for a long time that the man is beyond his sell date. He's what stands between the Club and properly competing for top honours.

He's had his chances to leave while he still had his legacy intact. Now, I fear he'll leave in a most unceremoniously manner, as with the money excuse out the window, even the most blinkered of disciples are starting to see how inept he is.

The man is manager of one the the biggest football clubs in the world and goes into a long season, competing on four fronts, with only 6 defenders, seriously? Two of which are kids, mind you.

Throw into the mix that we have an utterly lightweight and pointless Arteta still tasked with protecting the back 4 and it becomes inescapably clear that we have a total looney bin as our puppeteer at the Emirates.

I can't stand 2 more seasons of this rot, tbh, so I've moved over to indifferent to all our results and how we fare in all competitions until he fuck off to where ever.

[Globalgunner]

No. No No
Scotland too. No

In short Wenger go, Scotland stay

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

No.


The man will always be a hero and a legend, in five/ten/twenty years we will look back and marvel at the wonders he did for our club, however I just can't take the same mistakes being made anymore and the knowing of what will happen in big games before they kick off. As much as it pains me to say it, Arsene thanks for the memories, but its time to say goodbye

http://gifrific.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/04/Shocked-Fan-After-Undertaker-Loss-to-Brock-Lesnar.gif

[I am invisible]

I've gone with 'go', although that's not a particularly angry reaction to the way we've started the season - I just think that, at 64 years old, it's a reality that we're going to have to deal with before too much longer anyway, so it's really just a question of managing when it happens? As much as I love the stubborn old goat for everything he's done for us, and would love to see him start smashing all before him again, I have to say that I'm finding it increasingly hard to defend some of the ongoing problems that we keep seeing on the pitch, and have very much started thinking that sooner would probably be better than later.

And I also think there's an argument to be made that we're paying a colossal salary to a manager to run all aspects of the club, when the game at the top level has moved on from those days, and we probably need more of a head coach, who's responsibilities begin and end with the first team? The rest of the club really should be able to take care of itself now in a far more modular fashion.

Having said all that though, I don't think there's any immediate rush to get rid of him either (e.g. right now, or 'if things haven't improved by Christmas...', etc)? CL income is no longer critical to us (in light of our new sponsorship deals, and the massive boost that every PL club has received from the latest TV deal/s), and we now have a core of players who I don't think would jump ship if we missed out on the top 4, so we could probably absorb a dodgy season and a shit finishing position if we had to. This is more about pride than survival for us now, and pride isn't anything that will kill us - whilst I'm sure our current woes will be getting tedious for a lot of Arsenal fans now, we can at least afford to take our time, and make sure we get our next move right, and if that means Wenger staying on for a bit longer then I'll carry on supporting him and the club...

[Marc Overmars]

I felt he should have left with his head held high after the cup win, however I think he also deserved a chance to spend some of the new money that wasn't previously available to him. There was some cause for optimism after winning the cup and landing a player like Sanchez but it seems like we're not really much stronger as a team, arguably weaker right now thanks to the regression of a defence that was previously ok.

He shot himself in the foot in the transfer window, for the first time in years he had backing from the masses but now he's back to square one. Not signing adequate numbers in defence was just plain foolish and he completely missed a trick by not bringing Cesc back or at least finding an upgrade on Flamini/Arteta.

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.

He's been a top manager for us but unless there is dramatic success coming over the next 3 years, he's going to leave with his legacy tarnished and that's just sad because he is a great man who has put this club in a position we couldn't have dreamed about 20 years ago.

[Syn]

Is that your longest poast ever moe?

[Letters]

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think.
As much as I agree with a lot of your post, if you look at the amount of bullshit fans spout on here and elsewhere, he probably shouldn't concern himself too much with what we think.

[I am invisible]

I'm prepared to cut him a little slack where our transfer business is concerned - Man U were going hard for a lot of CBs too and they also ended up with no one, so it could just have been a shit summer for decent CBs moving around? And it sounds like the lack of a defensive midfielder wasn't for lack of trying either - by all accounts, we went after several high-profile players (Bender, Khedira, Carvalho), as well as some more modest targets too (Rabiot), but it's difficult to know how straighforward / complex each of those talks were without having been involved, so I don't think it's right to go too overboard on that?

What I'm finding increasingly hard to defend, though, is things like the lack of shape and structure I keep seeing on the pitch, our lack of preparation and motivation going into games, the way it takes us an age to get our shit together whenever we suffer a setback, the way some players sit on the bench gathering dust while others are worked to breaking point, Yaya Sanogo, etc - certain things I might be willing to chalk up to the shortened pre-season, the fact that we've had more games than anyone else because of CL qualifiers, and a string of fairly tough games (Everton > Man City > Dortmund), but to be honest some of these things just happen way too frequently for them to be anything other than fundamental problems with our coaching and training...

[mr_brighterside]

the right man for when we had a mid table budget but he can't hide behind that now.

Needs to go imho. Difficulty is getting a replacement who is better. The spuds have shown the chelski manager merry go round approach doesn't work for everyone.

[fakeyank]

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.


Possibly one of the best posts on here and touches on the exact reason why I have wanted him gone for many seasons. It was NEVER about the money for me. It was about tactics, man management, formations, player roles which made me want him gone. Like someone on here said a few days back "Give him 250 million quid and all he will spend on is attacking midfielders"... couldnt have said it better!

[fakeyank]

the right man for when we had a mid table budget but he can't hide behind that now.

Needs to go imho. Difficulty is getting a replacement who is better. The spuds have shown the chelski manager merry go round approach doesn't work for everyone.

Just get Martinez. Pay the extra buck to Everton and bring that man here. He is a top class manager!

[Letters]

Difficulty is getting a replacement who is better.
Yes, that IS the difficulty.
We do need change. Some would say 'change, we need'. But we don't want to get into changing manager every 5 minutes and for all the rhetoric about Wenger's bumbling incompetence you don't finish top 4 every year by luck and we did just win the FA Cup. He's no Moyes.

[I am invisible]

I just hope the club has a decent list of candidates drawn up for when the moment does come (and have maybe even started sounding people out for the job)? Whatever else you might think about Wenger, you can't say that he hasn't given us long enough to plan for his eventual successor, and prepare for what happens next - if we end up with a total panic-appointment, then that one at least is not on him...

[Globalgunner]

Yes, that IS the difficulty. We do need change. Some would say 'change, we need'. But we don't want to get into changing manager every 5 minutes and for all the rhetoric about Wenger's bumbling incompetence you don't finish top 4 every year by luck and we did just win the FA Cup. He's no Moyes.

When all you do is finish 4th with the 4th highest budget in the league (and for a long time the 3rd, before City got minted). It is hard to award yourself the title of genius.

The man has achieved the minimum expected of any decent manager with his means. He is limited by his own incompetence and yearly accruing arrogance. He wont win the CL in another 20 attempts. Its just not within him, given the opportunity he will always find a way to handicap himself

[Letters]

I don't think anyone awards him the title of genius, but Moyes showed what a real incompetent can do - taking the reigning champions to 7th. And some on here thought he was worth a punt.
There may be better managers out there but I'd suggest there aren't many. There are plenty of worse ones.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think this is something that can be done without caveats, especially considering it's an ephemeral topic....the only question i can give a yes or no response to is Am I happy with Wenger's management of the club? and the answer is unequivocally No.
Whether i want Wenger to go would be dependent on who we could bring in to replace him, the reason many of us including me are frustrated with him is because we have squandered the oportunity to push on from 4th place security to mounting a serious and sustained title challenge, and challenging on other fronts for major honours. We are tired of going into a season with one hand tied behind our back because we haven't strengthened in an area that glaringly needed strengthening in the transfer market. We are tired of his lack of tactical nous that sees us perenially come up short against the top sides when it matters.
However the board are playing a safety first game with Wenger, i doubt they are overly happy with him but they know he is the safe pair of hands when it comes to securing the revenue of a champions league place...no matter how dicey it's looked at times by hook or by crook he's never failed to finish lower than 4th and it's that consistency and stability he represents that makes his position rock solid.
I want us to do better than that, i am sick of Groundhog season....but i don't want him to go just for the sake of sacking him, i want him to go because we know we can secure the services of someone who will push on and not just find excuses for not going toe to toe with the Chelseas and Man City's of this world.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So to sum it up unless there is someone who can be brought in who represents a positive move forward from Wenger than he stays for me.

[Power n Glory]

When all you do is finish 4th with the 4th highest budget in the league (and for a long time the 3rd, before City got minted). It is hard to award yourself the title of genius.

The man has achieved the minimum expected of any decent manager with his means. He is limited by his own incompetence and yearly accruing arrogance. He wont win the CL in another 20 attempts. Its just not within him, given the opportunity he will always find a way to handicap himself

It's an argument Letter's continues to preach but in those years is he seriously saying we shouldn't be finishing above teams like Everton, Spurs, Newcastle and the rest? They've never had players that come close to matching what we've had even at our weakest.

The genuine threat to 4th place has come now that we have to look out for Liverpool and Utd. We were lucky United did so poorly last season or we'd have never qualified for CL football.

It's time for Wenger to step down. As the competition in the Prem gets harder and teams progress, he gets worse or exposed.

[Power n Glory]

So to sum it up unless there is someone who can be brought in who represents a positive move forward from Wenger than he stays for me.

The competition will only get together and we'll soon find ourselves outside of the top 4 if Wenger continues on and then we'll be forced to bring in a new manager without champions league revenue. We take too long with this decision and we'll be looking for a manger from a weakened position instead of a strong one.

It's like putting off fixing a leaky roof.

[Globalgunner]

It's an argument Letter's continues to preach but in those years is he seriously saying we shouldn't be finishing above teams like Everton, Spurs, Newcastle and the rest? They've never had players that come close to matching what we've had even at our weakest.

The genuine threat to 4th place has come now that we have to look out for Liverpool and Utd. We were lucky United did so poorly last season or we'd have never qualified for CL football.

It's time for Wenger to step down. As the competition in the Prem gets harder and teams progress, he gets worse or exposed.
The only thing Letters is seriously saying is that the most likely successor to Wenger would be a Moyes look alike. He has however been saying that since before Moyes was a wee bairn. so you need to take that in consideration.

[mr_brighterside]

Yes, that IS the difficulty.
We do need change. Some would say 'change, we need'. But we don't want to get into changing manager every 5 minutes and for all the rhetoric about Wenger's bumbling incompetence you don't finish top 4 every year by luck and we did just win the FA Cup. He's no Moyes.

Although Moyes is similarly highly regarded for consistently getting in the top 6 on a low budget....

I doubt any would say he is clueless. However there is a difference between good and world class. I still fear he'll be remembered for an ending like Brian Clough, fading away a decade after a glory period.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The competition will only get together and we'll soon find ourselves outside of the top 4 if Wenger continues on and then we'll be forced to bring in a new manager without champions league revenue. We take too long with this decision and we'll be looking for a manger from a weakened position instead of a strong one.

Every year the media has predicted we would finish outside the top four, and every year that has failed to materialise. And at the risk of stating the obvious he is here until 2017 whatever we want to happen, and frankly whatever we say about Wenger he will be leaving the club in a much better state than Ferguson did when he retired.
For me Martinez represents too much of a risk because he hasn't managed a club at the top echelons of football (and even Wenger who was an unknown when he came to us in 1996 had managed in Europe with Monaco), if we were to replace Wenger sooner rather than later my shortlist would be Jurgen Klopp, Rudi Garcia and Joachim Low...get one of those to come to us and yes i'd change my vote.

No point fixing a leaky roof (to use your analogy) without having the proper tools as your disposal to fix the roof otherwise your going to make the leak worse.

[Power n Glory]

Every year the media has predicted we would finish outside the top four, and every year that has failed to materialise. And at the risk of stating the obvious he is here until 2017 whatever we want to happen, and frankly whatever we say about Wenger he will be leaving the club in a much better state than Ferguson did when he retired.
For me Martinez represents too much of a risk because he hasn't managed a club at the top echelons of football (and even Wenger who was an unknown when he came to us in 1996 had managed in Europe with Monaco), if we were to replace Wenger sooner rather than later my shortlist would be Jurgen Klopp, Rudi Garcia and Joachim Low...get one of those to come to us and yes i'd change my vote.

No point fixing a leaky roof (to use your analogy) without having the proper tools as your disposal to fix the roof otherwise your going to make the leak worse.

I don't really care about what the media say when it comes to us. They often talk shit and when do we ever take their word as gospel?

Do you honestly think we're punching above our weight when we finish above Spurs, Newcastle, Everton, Villa and whoever else? Wenger up against coaches like (past and present) Moyes, Pardew, Redknapp, AVB, Martinez..etc??? Be honest!

A lot can happen in 3 years and there are no guarantees Wenger will leave a better squad compared to Fergie. For starters, both of our starting CB's are 29 so they're not exactly spring chickens. Theo is coming to the end of his contract and we have no idea how those contract talks will go. Cazorla is getting on, I doubt Ozil will be around and if we continue on this sort of form I'm sure a couple of our star performers will be looking for the exit as usual. A lot can change in 3 years under Wenger's watch. Check the history.

I still don't get why you think those managers are out of our reach? We're an attractive proposition as a club. This isn't Newcastle so of course the we have the proper tools at our disposal. You're talking as if there is nobody out there at all.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Maybe you should respond to what i've said rather than what you think i've said, i don't think i've said we are punching above our weight finishing above the likes of everton and spurs what i am saying is....getting a new manager in can have a destabilising effect and could leave us in danger of finishing below said teams (like Man United).
I also never said Klopp, Low and Garcia were unavaliable to us (I said i thought Klopp might have been a bit of a reach in the summer because Man City and Barcelona were also being linked with him in another post). I simply made the point if we could guarantee bringing one of those three in to replace Wenger i'd go for it, if not than i'd feel more inclined to play it safe.

Also Man United have one of the biggest reputations in the world, and yet were saddled with Moyes when Ferguson left...yes partly because Ferguson recommended him (out of hubris no doubt) but also because it's sometimes incredibly difficult to get top quality managers away from their contracts at other clubs.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Also i am saying if Wenger went today, the squad as it is would need much less of an overhaul than Ferguson's cavalcade of averageness that his successors inherited.

[Letters]

The only thing Letters is seriously saying is that the most likely successor to Wenger would be a Moyes look alike.
Nope, didn't say that at all :tiphat:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

The only thing Letters is seriously saying is that the most likely successor to Wenger would be a Moyes look alike.

Spot on.

[Letters]

Although Moyes is similarly highly regarded for consistently getting in the top 6 on a low budget....

I doubt any would say he is clueless. However there is a difference between good and world class. I still fear he'll be remembered for an ending like Brian Clough, fading away a decade after a glory period.
I guess my point is Moyes wasn't that stupid an idea. He did do well at Everton, and Utd thought he was worthy to succeed Ferguson. And yet... We do need to move on but we need to be careful about it because for all our frustrations with Wenger he's not the incompetent some on here make out and plenty of managers would do worse.
Clough took Forest down in the end, all Wenger's done is taken us from 1st to 4th. We've stagnated for too long but we need to be careful we don't pick someone who will take us into mid-table like Moyes did at Utd.

[Letters]

I'll join in the WUMing

:gp:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I guess my point is Moyes wasn't that stupid an idea. He did do well at Everton, and Utd thought he was worthy to succeed Ferguson. And yet... We do need to move on but we need to be careful about it because for all our frustrations with Wenger he's not the incompetent some on here make out and plenty of managers would do worse.
Clough took Forest down in the end, all Wenger's done is taken us from 1st to 4th. We've stagnated for too long but we need to be careful we don't pick someone who will take us into mid-table like Moyes did at Utd.

I think this is probably one of those rare moments where i agree with you

[LDG]

I sided on "no" at the end of last season, though like others also thought maybe he deserved a chance to spend some dosh after winning the FA Cup.

Though what I thought about tactical and preparative measures at the end of last season prevail in this.

It's unforgivable to keep leaving is short, both in personel and in conditioning prior to playing each game. No thought of the opposition is ever apparent. That's not confidence, that's neglagence.

I'm not about to crucify the bloke (he seems to be tarnishing his own legacy anyway), call him an idiot etc.as I think he deserves repect, and a place amongst other Arsenal heros. He is quite possibly the most influential manager in our history (for good things). And, dare I say it, in the English game.

It should be the owners and board who let him go quietly, and with respect, as he's hanging himself little bit at the moment.

Will always love the geezer though.

Even though it's a "no". Hope he proves me wrong.

[Marc Overmars]

As much as I agree with a lot of your post, if you look at the amount of bullshit fans spout on here and elsewhere, he probably shouldn't concern himself too much with what we think.

That's true but there are plenty of sane, rational people who raise legitimate issues. Only to be met with retorts like "in England everyone thinks the solution is to buy" and other comments that completely miss the point.

[Power n Glory]

Maybe you should respond to what i've said rather than what you think i've said, i don't think i've said we are punching above our weight finishing above the likes of everton and spurs what i am saying is....getting a new manager in can have a destabilising effect and could leave us in danger of finishing below said teams (like Man United).
I also never said Klopp, Low and Garcia were unavaliable to us (I said i thought Klopp might have been a bit of a reach in the summer because Man City and Barcelona were also being linked with him in another post). I simply made the point if we could guarantee bringing one of those three in to replace Wenger i'd go for it, if not than i'd feel more inclined to play it safe.

Also Man United have one of the biggest reputations in the world, and yet were saddled with Moyes when Ferguson left...yes partly because Ferguson recommended him (out of hubris no doubt) but also because it's sometimes incredibly difficult to get top quality managers away from their contracts at other clubs.

.....that was a question. What's wrong with you? A very basic question I asked you to answer since you brought in the part about what the media predicting our fall from the top 4. We never usually pay attention to what they say so why is it relevant when talking about Wenger's reign as manager? An answer would be nice.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Well at least it's confirmed those that wanted Wenger out were right all along.

For years we were ridiculed and laughed at on here for speaking sense. When even Ollie has finally admitted that Wenger is holding us back, it puts an end to the debate.

If only Cripps were here to share the moment with us.

What a huge moral victory.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's true but there are plenty of sane, rational people who raise legitimate issues. Only to be met with retorts like "in England everyone thinks the solution is to buy" and other comments that completely miss the point.

Well precisely if his missus told him "Arsene the fridge and cupboards are empty there is literally no food in the house" would he reply similarly....no he'd be on the phone to Waitrose getting them to deliver.

I think the problem is it's not that he is unaware of the problems in the squad, he just has his own process when he deliberates in his own head on the pro's and con's of a transfer, and he feels he'd rather sign no-one than sign the wrong player (which ironically he frequently does). I don't think he's blind to the problems of the squad and to his own failings, it's more that he rigidly sticks to his system of "principles" and "beliefffs" and he'd rather be damned for that, than be seen as a pragmatic coach with no values.
Football has moved on in the last ten years and it's definitely a shame that it has because it hasn't moved on for the better, and if Wenger cannot adapt to his environment than Evolution makes him extinct.

[fakeyank]

Just watching Everton in the Europa league and you cannot tell me with a straight face that Martinez is not one of the strongest candidates to take Wengers job. That guy has transformed Evertons style of play... imagine what he could with Sanchez, Ozil Cazorla, Ramsey, Welbeck, Walcott. I dont know whether we will challenge for the title for sure, what I'm sure about is the fact that we will play some fast breathtaking football and not the tippy tappy no urgency BS!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Just watching Everton in the Europa league and you cannot tell me with a straight face that Martinez is not one of the strongest candidates to take Wengers job. That guy has transformed Evertons style of play... imagine what he could with Sanchez, Ozil Cazorla, Ramsey, Welbeck, Walcott. I dont know whether we will challenge for the title for sure, what I'm sure about is the fact that we will play some fast breathtaking football and not the tippy tappy no urgency BS!

Frankly No, i want someone who has actually won at least a domestic title somewhere.....i agree he's doing a good job with Everton but if people are talking about the big name pull that we have, yes i'd want someone bigger than Martinez who has not managed a club in the Champions League (and completley choked when they managed to nose in front of us for qualification towards the end of last season) let alone come anywhere near winning a league title.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I felt he should have left with his head held high after the cup win, however I think he also deserved a chance to spend some of the new money that wasn't previously available to him. There was some cause for optimism after winning the cup and landing a player like Sanchez but it seems like we're not really much stronger as a team, arguably weaker right now thanks to the regression of a defence that was previously ok.

He shot himself in the foot in the transfer window, for the first time in years he had backing from the masses but now he's back to square one. Not signing adequate numbers in defence was just plain foolish and he completely missed a trick by not bringing Cesc back or at least finding an upgrade on Flamini/Arteta.

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.

He's been a top manager for us but unless there is dramatic success coming over the next 3 years, he's going to leave with his legacy tarnished and that's just sad because he is a great man who has put this club in a position we couldn't have dreamed about 20 years ago.
First class post.

[fakeyank]

Frankly No, i want someone who has actually won at least a domestic title somewhere.....i agree he's doing a good job with Everton but if people are talking about the big name pull that we have, yes i'd want someone bigger than Martinez who has not managed a club in the Champions League (and completley choked when they managed to nose in front of us for qualification towards the end of last season) let alone come anywhere near winning a league title.

Wenger had won only one cup of note with Monaco in the 80s before he joined us, yet he didnt do too bad till the early 2000's. Klopp hadnt won anything before Dortmund and look at what he is doing with the team. Brendan Rogers, even though hasnt won anything, his teams play top rate football. Winning and losing can come to some real fine details, I just want my team to at least entertain! I cant recall the last season when we played football that made me think "Wow, that was awesome"

IMO, a manager does not win a trophy coming out of his mothers womb. There is always a first time and Martinez with the right club and finances will be a winner!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger had won only one cup of note with Monaco in the 80s before he joined us, yet he didnt do too bad till the early 2000's. Klopp hadnt won anything before Dortmund and look at what he is doing with the team. Brendan Rogers, even though hasnt won anything, his teams play top rate football. Winning and losing can come to some real fine details, I just want my team to at least entertain! I cant recall the last season when we played football that made me think "Wow, that was awesome"

IMO, a manager does not win a trophy coming out of his mothers womb. There is always a first time and Martinez with the right club and finances will be a winner!

Wenger won the league title in 1988 (which meets my criteria for a domestic league title), i'm not going to go down the road of arguing how he might have won more if Bernard Tapie hadn't bribed other players and officials to throw matches to win titles for Marseille. He was also a big enough prospect in the early-mid nineties that Bayern Munich wanted him as manager.

Dortmund were a club struggling both in terms of football and financially when Klopp became manager, they were acheiving mid-table finishes before he came so arguably it was easier for them to throw caution to the wind.

And yes you're right about Brendan Rodgers....he has won nothing.

[fakeyank]

I certainly hope that whoever selects our next manager has a broader mind than that :)

[Letters]

I certainly hope that whoever selects our next manager has a broader mind than that :)

It's not that unreasonable to think our next manager should have a proven track record of winning titles.
It's not that unreasonable to think we could give someone who hasn't done that but who shows a lot of potential a chance.

The latter is arguably more risky though.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

I certainly hope that whoever selects our next manager has a broader mind than that :)

Agreed.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Agreed.

That's the mindset i'd expect from someone who wants to get rid of Wenger just for the sake of doing so

I don't see the point of getting rid of him, for anything less than someone who has a proven track record of winning titles. At the moment we are stagnating, we are not in danger of mid-table or relegation....therefore we need to guarantee that he's been replaced by someone of guaranteed quality rather than just doing it on a whim because we don't like him.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

That's the mindset i'd expect from someone who wants to get rid of Wenger just for the sake of doing so

I don't see the point of getting rid of him, for anything less than someone who has a proven track record of winning titles. At the moment we are stagnating, we are not in danger of mid-table or relegation....therefore we need to guarantee that he's been replaced by someone of guaranteed quality rather than just doing it on a whim because we don't like him.

Ok let's think about this logically.

Problems with Wenger:

1. Doesn't apply tactics. Just tells team to turn up and 'do their thing'
2. Sells key players every season and fails to strengthen (this summer we replaced, we didn't strengthen)
3. Has faith in players that are clearly not good enough e.g. Sanogo
4. Gets tactically shat on every game because is tactically poor, with no plan B
5. Plays players out of position

If we get someone that addresses all those areas, like Martinez or Klopp, and implements a system to suit our players, how can we not fare better?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Ok let's think about this logically.

Problems with Wenger:

1. Doesn't apply tactics. Just tells team to turn up and 'do their thing'
2. Sells key players every season and fails to strengthen (this summer we replaced, we didn't strengthen)
3. Has faith in players that are clearly not good enough e.g. Sanogo
4. Gets tactically shat on every game because is tactically poor, with no plan B
5. Plays players out of position

If we get someone that addresses all those areas, like Martinez or Klopp, and implements a system to suit our players, how can we not fare better?

My criteria is pretty clear, if we get a manager who has won a domestic title with a club than it's not a risk and it's worth pursuing, if the manager has not and actually has a record of getting relegated as a manager (like Martinez who if you are being really harsh you could argue was rewarded for failure by getting the job at Everton) than i'd say it's not a risk worth taking when we consider that as frustrating as Wenger is we are one of the most stabile clubs in Europe. I am sick of stagnating as much as anyone, but i'm also pretty risk adverse and everything that has been said about Martinez at Everton has previously been said of Moyes and in the end he didn't have the stature or the authority to take it onto the next level.
For me the best and most realistic choice at this moment in time would be Rudi Garcia....who has won a league title with Lille and pushed Juventus all the way in Serie A last season despite having to sell their top players every summer.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think the difference is you sound to me like "Anyone would be better than Wenger" and i apologise if i'm incorrect but that seems to be the perception, and i'm yeah this guy isn't going to push us onto the next level let's be sensible about this and take our time to identify someone who has the experience to push us onto the next level.

But of course it's all Academic anyway

[mr_brighterside]

if we were looking to serie A then Conte is surely a better bet?

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

My criteria is pretty clear, if we get a manager who has won a domestic title with a club than it's not a risk and it's worth pursuing, if the manager has not and actually has a record of getting relegated as a manager (like Martinez who if you are being really harsh you could argue was rewarded for failure by getting the job at Everton) than i'd say it's not a risk worth taking when we consider that as frustrating as Wenger is we are one of the most stabile clubs in Europe. I am sick of stagnating as much as anyone, but i'm also pretty risk adverse and everything that has been said about Martinez at Everton has previously been said of Moyes and in the end he didn't have the stature or the authority to take it onto the next level.
For me the best and most realistic choice at this moment in time would be Rudi Garcia....who has won a league title with Lille and pushed Juventus all the way in Serie A last season despite having to sell their top players every summer.

Capello has stature and has won a shit load of trophies but look at him now. About as useful as Letters in a brothel.

Laudrup won the league cup with Swansea and certain posters wanted him here (won't name any names, you know who you are :haha: ). Now look at him.

It's about bringing in the right person, and by right I mean he must have the right personality, the right attitude and be tactically proficient. Someone that would set the team up right and implement a system to suit our players.

Martinez would be an excellent choice.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Neither of these examples are particurlarly astute, Capello won the majority of his titles in the 1990s (clearly we would look at someone who had enjoyed recent success) and sorry were not a lot of people on here talking about Michael Laudrup as a successor to Wenger?. This proves to me how ephmeral football is, and how more so opinions are.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

It's funny how you advocate someone that has recent success yet stick up for Wenger.

[Power n Glory]

I felt he should have left with his head held high after the cup win, however I think he also deserved a chance to spend some of the new money that wasn't previously available to him. There was some cause for optimism after winning the cup and landing a player like Sanchez but it seems like we're not really much stronger as a team, arguably weaker right now thanks to the regression of a defence that was previously ok.

He shot himself in the foot in the transfer window, for the first time in years he had backing from the masses but now he's back to square one. Not signing adequate numbers in defence was just plain foolish and he completely missed a trick by not bringing Cesc back or at least finding an upgrade on Flamini/Arteta.

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.

He's been a top manager for us but unless there is dramatic success coming over the next 3 years, he's going to leave with his legacy tarnished and that's just sad because he is a great man who has put this club in a position we couldn't have dreamed about 20 years ago.

:gp: It sums it up and why we've all been going in circles for so long. I just can't see a solution other than a change of management. The board has changed, our financial position has changed, the team keeps changing but it's the same results and with the same hallmarks.

[Power n Glory]

I guess my point is Moyes wasn't that stupid an idea. He did do well at Everton, and Utd thought he was worthy to succeed Ferguson. And yet... We do need to move on but we need to be careful about it because for all our frustrations with Wenger he's not the incompetent some on here make out and plenty of managers would do worse.
Clough took Forest down in the end, all Wenger's done is taken us from 1st to 4th. We've stagnated for too long but we need to be careful we don't pick someone who will take us into mid-table like Moyes did at Utd.

Moyes was a terrible choice from the get go. He only got the job because he was Scottish and Fergie felt he knew his background or whatever. It was a stupid idea and why I'd never advocate bringing someone in from a smaller club just because they managed to balance the books. His style was all wrong, he plays long ball football, is far from a tactical genius, never beat any of the top teams away from home, never won a trophy...he should have never been given the job.

In an ideal world, we want someone with solid credentials but if we're going to take a punt, like we did with Wenger, bring in someone that can add to our attacking philosophy, a real tactician and even if they are from a smaller club, have at least a record of turning them around and winning a cup and known for being a tough team to beat across the board. Been saying this for ages and why people are looking towards guys like Martinez. He'd be a massive risk and not my first choice but I'd rather take a punt then continue seeing this. This is a slow death.

[Niall_Quinn]

You said "then" :haha:

[Marc Overmars]

Moyes was a terrible choice from the get go. He only got the job because he was Scottish and Fergie felt he knew his background or whatever. It was a stupid idea and why I'd never advocate bringing someone in from a smaller club just because they managed to balance the books. His style was all wrong, he plays long ball football, is far from a tactical genius, never beat any of the top teams away from home, never won a trophy...he should have never been given the job.

In an ideal world, we want someone with solid credentials but if we're going to take a punt, like we did with Wenger, bring in someone that can add to our attacking philosophy, a real tactician and even if they are from a smaller club, have at least a record of turning them around and winning a cup and known for being a tough team to beat across the board. Been saying this for ages and why people are looking towards guys like Martinez. He'd be a massive risk and not my first choice but I'd rather take a punt then continue seeing this. This is a slow death.

Of course it would be ideal if the new guy had some previous success but I've never felt a glittering cv is a must have for a new manager, what I want to see is a fresh philosophy and a more pro active style of management. We're investing in a person, not a track record.

Wenger hasn't moved the team on for the best part of a decade and has 1 trophy to show in that period, it's not the impossible job like it was for Moyes replacing Fergie. I reckon every young manager in the business will salivate at the prospect of managing Arsenal once Wenger calls it a day.

It wouldn't be so bad if we were competitive in the CL but the fact we're also rans means finishing 4th holds no weight anymore.

[Thierrymon]

I definitely think it is time to move on. Wenger will always be a total legend at the club for the early on field success and the transition into the new stadium but I cant help but feel that football has evolved over the past decade and he hasn't been able to adjust with it. We look tactically clueless against pretty much any decent team and we always seem to be lacking confidence and motivation.

[fakeyank]

Capello has stature and has won a shit load of trophies but look at him now. About as useful as Letters in a brothel.

Laudrup won the league cup with Swansea and certain posters wanted him here (won't name any names, you know who you are :haha: ). Now look at him.

It's about bringing in the right person, and by right I mean he must have the right personality, the right attitude and be tactically proficient. Someone that would set the team up right and implement a system to suit our players.

Martinez would be an excellent choice.

:gp:

It is absolutely about getting the right person for the job. Yes, a league title could be a great plus but that should not stop us from seeking the next Mourinho (without the cuntish behavior) or Klopp. I think a manager like Martinez can utilize our squad the best and make us a team to fear. I do not see that coming from Wenger... not this year, not next year or the next decade. Time to move on..

[Letters]

Capello has stature and has won a shit load of trophies but look at him now. About as useful as Letters in a brothel.
That depends whether the brothel needs some IT support.
If it does then I'd be very useful.
:cool:

[Letters]

It's funny how you advocate someone that has recent success yet stick up for Wenger.
Yeah. Wenger hasn't won a trophy for literally months.

[I am invisible]

I know there's a lot of focus on everything that's going wrong with us right now, but we shouldn't forget that we have a hell of a lot going for us as a club right now, and that we're going to be a massive draw for most of the world's top coaches when Wenger does eventually step aside.

The key selling points, as I see them are:

1. Spending power - perhaps we don't have as much as some clubs, but we still have considerably more than all but a handful...

2. Stability - this could be the real ace up our sleeve? A lot of our rivals might have big money to spend, but not too many of them will combine that with the stability and long-term backing needed to really make good on a vision. We also have stability in the sense that our income streams are steady and self-sustaining, our infrastructure is already in place, and there's no nasty surprises ahead for us (like costly stadium builds!)...

3. Core of young players to get started with - there may be some older players that the new guy will have to replace by the time they come in, but in general most of our players are still in their early-mid twenties, and may even be approaching their peak years, depending on when it happens...

4. Room for improvement in almost all areas - in a weird way, the fact that we're currently under-performing in so many areas might make the job more attractive to a lot of candidates? Not just because it will give them an opportunity to really stamp their mark on the club, but also because there will be less pressure taking over from Wenger if his star has fallen slightly in the eyes of the fans? I always felt Moyes was on a hiding to nothing, taking over from Ferguson when he did, because there was nowhere he could really take that club? They were already sitting at the top of the league, so there was only one way to go there, and there wasn't even much of an opportunity there to be his own man either? Most of their fans immediately saw a younger Alex Ferguson, and therefore expected him to carry on being Alex Ferguson for them for another 20 years?! Now that's not to say that the job of replacing Wenger will be an easy one, because it won't - we could very easily go backwards ourselves with the wrong appointment. However, there is a lot more scope to take us forward too, and that will make any potential candidates feel like they have a very real chance of being a big success here...

(Also, whilst it gets said a lot, I still think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of what makes us such an attractive proposition for any potential new managers is in no small part down to Wenger's good work, so let's not be too scathing and disingenuous with our criticism of him in our eagerness to move on - he may well be holding us back a bit now, but he's done a hell of a lot for this club, and he'll leave us in a place where we're potentially a bit of good coaching / some fresh thinking away from being one of the European super powers!)

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

That depends whether the brothel needs some IT support.
If it does then I'd be very useful.
:cool:

:lol:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Yeah. Wenger hasn't won a trophy for literally months.

1 trophy in 10 years + spent 128 days at the top last season yet still managed to just about tumble across the line into 4th.

Wenger the great!

[I am invisible]

The Community Shield totally counts as trophy! Everyone knows it.

Not the Emirates Cup though - meaningless joke-competition, that.

[Power n Glory]

I know there's a lot of focus on everything that's going wrong with us right now, but we shouldn't forget that we have a hell of a lot going for us as a club right now, and that we're going to be a massive draw for most of the world's top coaches when Wenger does eventually step aside.

The key selling points, as I see them are:

1. Spending power - perhaps we don't have as much as some clubs, but we still have considerably more than all but a handful...

2. Stability - this could be the real ace up our sleeve? A lot of our rivals might have big money to spend, but not too many of them will combine that with the stability and long-term backing needed to really make good on a vision. We also have stability in the sense that our income streams are steady and self-sustaining, our infrastructure is already in place, and there's no nasty surprises ahead for us (like costly stadium builds!)...

3. Core of young players to get started with - there may be some older players that the new guy will have to replace by the time they come in, but in general most of our players are still in their early-mid twenties, and may even be approaching their peak years, depending on when it happens...

4. Room for improvement in almost all areas - in a weird way, the fact that we're currently under-performing in so many areas might make the job more attractive to a lot of candidates? Not just because it will give them an opportunity to really stamp their mark on the club, but also because there will be less pressure taking over from Wenger if his star has fallen slightly in the eyes of the fans? I always felt Moyes was on a hiding to nothing, taking over from Ferguson when he did, because there was nowhere he could really take that club? They were already sitting at the top of the league, so there was only one way to go there, and there wasn't even much of an opportunity there to be his own man either? Most of their fans immediately saw a younger Alex Ferguson, and therefore expected him to carry on being Alex Ferguson for them for another 20 years?! Now that's not to say that the job of replacing Wenger will be an easy one, because it won't - we could very easily go backwards ourselves with the wrong appointment. However, there is a lot more scope to take us forward too, and that will make any potential candidates feel like they have a very real chance of being a big success here...

(Also, whilst it gets said a lot, I still think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of what makes us such an attractive proposition for any potential new managers is in no small part down to Wenger's good work, so let's not be too scathing and disingenuous with our criticism of him in our eagerness to move on - he may well be holding us back a bit now, but he's done a hell of a lot for this club, and he'll leave us in a place where we're potentially a bit of good coaching / some fresh thinking away from being one of the European super powers!)

:gp:

With the new sponsorship deals, we're in a much better position.

[milla]

That depends whether the brothel needs some IT support.
If it does then I'd be very useful.
:cool:

IT support.. it is not even a profession. :coffee:

[selassie]

I know there's a lot of focus on everything that's going wrong with us right now, but we shouldn't forget that we have a hell of a lot going for us as a club right now, and that we're going to be a massive draw for most of the world's top coaches when Wenger does eventually step aside.

The key selling points, as I see them are:

1. Spending power - perhaps we don't have as much as some clubs, but we still have considerably more than all but a handful...

2. Stability - this could be the real ace up our sleeve? A lot of our rivals might have big money to spend, but not too many of them will combine that with the stability and long-term backing needed to really make good on a vision. We also have stability in the sense that our income streams are steady and self-sustaining, our infrastructure is already in place, and there's no nasty surprises ahead for us (like costly stadium builds!)...

3. Core of young players to get started with - there may be some older players that the new guy will have to replace by the time they come in, but in general most of our players are still in their early-mid twenties, and may even be approaching their peak years, depending on when it happens...

4. Room for improvement in almost all areas - in a weird way, the fact that we're currently under-performing in so many areas might make the job more attractive to a lot of candidates? Not just because it will give them an opportunity to really stamp their mark on the club, but also because there will be less pressure taking over from Wenger if his star has fallen slightly in the eyes of the fans? I always felt Moyes was on a hiding to nothing, taking over from Ferguson when he did, because there was nowhere he could really take that club? They were already sitting at the top of the league, so there was only one way to go there, and there wasn't even much of an opportunity there to be his own man either? Most of their fans immediately saw a younger Alex Ferguson, and therefore expected him to carry on being Alex Ferguson for them for another 20 years?! Now that's not to say that the job of replacing Wenger will be an easy one, because it won't - we could very easily go backwards ourselves with the wrong appointment. However, there is a lot more scope to take us forward too, and that will make any potential candidates feel like they have a very real chance of being a big success here...

(Also, whilst it gets said a lot, I still think it's worth keeping in mind that a lot of what makes us such an attractive proposition for any potential new managers is in no small part down to Wenger's good work, so let's not be too scathing and disingenuous with our criticism of him in our eagerness to move on - he may well be holding us back a bit now, but he's done a hell of a lot for this club, and he'll leave us in a place where we're potentially a bit of good coaching / some fresh thinking away from being one of the European super powers!)

:gp:

Yep, it's pretty much a dream job when it comes up for grabs, we will have no shortage of candidates and I would expect them to be top notch ones aswell.

I personally think if we do not see any progress this season, progress both in performance and in terms of strengthening the squad, then I feel Arsene should step aside.

I have major issues with Arsene's management so maybe regardless of what we do his time should be up.

[I am invisible]

:gp:

With the new sponsorship deals, we're in a much better position.

I'm not even sure CL income is that much of a necessity for us any more? Obviously we'd rather have it than not have it (if for no other reason than we'll be competing with Europe's best), but the figures involved really are dwarfed by the new PL TV deal now. Chuck in the extra £70m a year that we're getting from Puma and Emirates and whoever else, and, from a purely survival POV, I think it's OK to declare us pretty safe and secure, even if we miss out the top 4...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's funny how you advocate someone that has recent success yet stick up for Wenger.

Didn't realise let's make sure we are getting someone better is a ringing endorsement of Wenger...sticking up for Wenger would be me saying, he's done a good job...he deserves his wages, the characterisation of him as cumudgeonly, intransigent etc is unfair. I don't recall me saying those things, i'm let's get someone in who is guaranteed to push us on not anyone but Wenger

[I am invisible]

:gp:

Yep, it's pretty much a dream job when it comes up for grabs, we will have no shortage of candidates and I would expect them to be top notch ones aswell.

I personally think if we do not see any progress this season, progress both in performance and in terms of strengthening the squad, then I feel Arsene should step aside.

I have major issues with Arsene's management so maybe regardless of what we do his time should be up.

I'm not attaching any particular time frame to it, myself. I agree that it's probably time that we started making plans for life after Wenger, but I also think that his 3 year deal could be an advantage to us, if it buys us a bit of time to really get that decision right (or maybe even wait for some top candidates to run down their contracts)? He may not be able to take us to that next level, but he's still good enough to keep us more or less where we want to be in the meantime, so I'm not in any immediate rush to see it happen...

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Hmmm i'd rather see him go before 2017 if we had someone top class to replace him with, it's incredibly frustrating to be in September and be pretty assured that you won't be winning any major honours again.

[1_nilto the arsenal]

Time for a change. Even Fergie called time on his Man U career. Enough is enough.

[Letters]

let's get someone in who is guaranteed to push us on not anyone but Wenger
Unfortunately that's pretty much impossible.

[Kano]

I sided on "no" at the end of last season, though like others also thought maybe he deserved a chance to spend some dosh after winning the FA Cup.

Though what I thought about tactical and preparative measures at the end of last season prevail in this.

It's unforgivable to keep leaving is short, both in personel and in conditioning prior to playing each game. No thought of the opposition is ever apparent. That's not confidence, that's neglagence.

I'm not about to crucify the bloke (he seems to be tarnishing his own legacy anyway), call him an idiot etc.as I think he deserves repect, and a place amongst other Arsenal heros. He is quite possibly the most influential manager in our history (for good things). And, dare I say it, in the English game.

It should be the owners and board who let him go quietly, and with respect, as he's hanging himself little bit at the moment.

Will always love the geezer though.

Even though it's a "no". Hope he proves me wrong.
Someone on the Arseblog summed it up well enough. When we had the best players in the league we could let them go out there and figure out how to win the games, we only had Man U as competition. Now there are at least three other teams, with players every bit as good as ours and the dated approach 'go out there and be creative' isn't good enough, which is why we have floundered in the league for so long.

There's no guarantee that by leaving we'll get in someone who can do better but there is a guarantee that with Wenger staying we will not progress at all which is not good enough given the resources available.

[Kano]

I'm not attaching any particular time frame to it, myself. I agree that it's probably time that we started making plans for life after Wenger, but I also think that his 3 year deal could be an advantage to us, if it buys us a bit of time to really get that decision right (or maybe even wait for some top candidates to run down their contracts)? He may not be able to take us to that next level, but he's still good enough to keep us more or less where we want to be in the meantime, so I'm not in any immediate rush to see it happen...

Fourth place is a tight rope that cannot be balanced forever. The teams below are getting hungrier and growing in belief they can snatch a place. With Liverpool back in the frame now, 5 into 4 doesn't go. We keep pushing our luck and at some point it is going to run out. For us to fall out of the top 4 with the money available and players in the squad it would be a far worse scenario than when Liverpool fell prey to the same thing.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I see what you are saying. But tbh, I'm pretty fed up with the CL. We have become so uncompetitive in it that I don't look forward to it at all. I understand we need it for the revenue (perhaps a bit less now) but this season it would be great if we could just have the money without having to go through the formality of getting knocked out in the last 16.

[fakeyank]

I see what you are saying. But tbh, I'm pretty fed up with the CL. We have become so uncompetitive in it that I don't look forward to it at all. I understand we need it for the revenue (perhaps a bit less now) but this season it would be great if we could just have the money without having to go through the formality of getting knocked out in the last 16.

:gp:

Amen brotha.. watching us qualify and get knocked out in the last 16 or at best quarters without challenging is just tiring.

[Letters]

I've enjoyed the group games over the last couple of years but we have zero chance of winning it so in some ways it's pointless being in there.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

i think there is a prestige that goes to being in Europe's premier competition along with the money, but it's clear we should be doing better in the competition (Martin Samuel actually having a point about our being seeded for the competition, how are we seeded and Dortmund aren't?)
It always used to be that we were virtually impregnable at home no matter who we played, but it was our away form that sank us....now we seem to get equally roughed up at the Emirates which is disheartening.

[torontogooner]

Time for him to go. He is stubborn, self centred and an egotist. The signings over the Summer were good, but his failure to strengthen our defense highlights his inability to see the full picture.

[fakeyank]

The last CL game that I really enjoyed was the game we beat Barca in. That was a magical CL night!

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Fair enough,

I've enjoyed the odd few and here since then, although ultimately futile on both counts the home game against AC Milan and the away game against Bayern Munich where we won 3-0 and 2-0 respectively hold fond memories for me

The Napoli game at home where we kill the game off in the first fifteen minutes and a really electric atmosphere at the stadium, and the away game in Dortmund last season where a very similar team to the one that got spanked on Tuesday put in a wonderfully committed and spirited display and nicked a 1-0 win.

But i can see your point, the home game against Barcelona is for me the best Arsenal game to have been played at the Emirates.

[fakeyank]

I thought about the Bayern and Milan game as well, however, my opinion is that those games were killed off in the first leg itself and the other teams were just complacent. A lot of people may disagree with that statement though.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I would agree but Bayern took a two nil lead into their second leg against Juventus in the quarter final, and won 2-0 in the second leg in Turin. They then obviously took a 4-0 lead against Barcelona into the Nou Camp and won 3-0 there.

Against Bayern had we not taken an early lead we probably would have drawn only like last season but that's how games go.

AC Milan....we should never have been 4-0 down in the tie in the first place, even in the season after we lost Fabregas, Nasri etc i still feel we were a better side than them.

I think these results illustrate my frustration with Wenger, that i think there is an ability to mastermind excellent tactical performances that see us pick up fantastic results down the years. For example we didn't win the league at Old Trafford in 2002 purely because we were the better side, we actually had a lot of injuries and suspensions for that game (Henry being the notable one) but we played to draw the sting out of United and then hit them on the break.

I think his major failing is this fixation with us emulating Barcelona's two-three touch football, we have never been able to master it without looking toothless....we have never been able to pass teams to death, the genius of our play under Wenger was quick one touch passing counter thrusts which would annhilate the opposistion through pace and precision.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

.....that was a question. What's wrong with you? A very basic question I asked you to answer since you brought in the part about what the media predicting our fall from the top 4. We never usually pay attention to what they say so why is it relevant when talking about Wenger's reign as manager? An answer would be nice.

It's relevant because the Anyone but Wenger brigade fly into a panic and say if we don't sack him now we will finish outside the top four (which seems a bit contradictory as many of them proclaim that they don't care whether we qualify for the Champions League because we fail to make our mark on the competition anyway).
You seemed to be implying (i could be wrong) that we were overacheiving by getting into 4th, clearly not what i think but i was also alluding to how you had stated that the top managers were unavaliable to us and using that as a reason not to get rid of Wenger. When actually what i said is that we want to make sure one of those top manager is avaliable to us before we took the steps to displacing him.
None of is under any illusion that Wenger will magically change his ways, i don't believe for a second he is incompitent his problem is intransigence....arguably the difference between that and neglect/incompitence is pretty superficial when you look at how much he earns and some of the perilous situations we find ourselves in, of his making. The simple fact is that Wenger has been here 18 years, and i'm entitled to want a guarantee of something better (which i'm not convinced at this moment Martinez represents) in order to make a change.
Where as i think too many people are entrenched in personal animus against Wenger, that anything represents a positive change from him.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

And then the Banks will pay back the bail out money they owe Western Governments
ISIS will release all their hostages and release a press statement saying they are committed to Openness, Secularism and Democracy
The Republicans in the House of Representatives will start working with President Obama to get legislation passed
Henry Kissinger will stand trial for war crimes committed against the peoples of Cambodia and Indonesia
Robert Mugabe will leave office of his own volition
And the lame will walk, and the blind will see.....

Anyway you can see where i'm going with this.

[Letters]

Best thing that could happen is UEFA change the policy so only the top 2 teams from the premier league gain automatic qualification for the champions league.

It should only be the champions.
There is a clue in the name.

[Xhaka Can’t]

i think there is a prestige that goes to being in Europe's premier competition along with the money, but it's clear we should be doing better in the competition (Martin Samuel actually having a point about our being seeded for the competition, how are we seeded and Dortmund aren't?)
It always used to be that we were virtually impregnable at home no matter who we played, but it was our away form that sank us....now we seem to get equally roughed up at the Emirates which is disheartening.
Yeah, I'm not feeling the prestige.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It should only be the champions.
There is a clue in the name.

And yet in nine of the 22 seasons it has run under that format it has been won by a side that hasn't been champion of it's own domestic league the previous season.

Don't get me wrong i don't disagree with you, it's just funny when you think about it....well it's not really it happened as soon as they expanded the competition.

Under your format Real Madrid wouldn't have won last season nor Bayern Munich the season before that nor Chelsea the season before that (How i wish that had been the case, i still haven't gotten over that yet).

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yeah, I'm not feeling the prestige.

Hmm regardless of win, lose or draw i'd still rather us be playing the likes of Bayern Munich, Barcelona etc rather than the likes of Anorthosis Famagusta.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

actually they aren't the best example, as they were in the champions league six years ago

AIK Solna?
FC Thun?
Rapid Vienna?
Heerenveen?

fuck!!!

[Power n Glory]

It's relevant because the Anyone but Wenger brigade fly into a panic and say if we don't sack him now we will finish outside the top four (which seems a bit contradictory as many of them proclaim that they don't care whether we qualify for the Champions League because we fail to make our mark on the competition anyway).
You seemed to be implying (i could be wrong) that we were overacheiving by getting into 4th, clearly not what i think but i was also alluding to how you had stated that the top managers were unavaliable to us and using that as a reason not to get rid of Wenger. When actually what i said is that we want to make sure one of those top manager is avaliable to us before we took the steps to displacing him.
None of is under any illusion that Wenger will magically change his ways, i don't believe for a second he is incompitent his problem is intransigence....arguably the difference between that and neglect/incompitence is pretty superficial when you look at how much he earns and some of the perilous situations we find ourselves in, of his making. The simple fact is that Wenger has been here 18 years, and i'm entitled to want a guarantee of something better (which i'm not convinced at this moment Martinez represents) in order to make a change.
Where as i think too many people are entrenched in personal animus against Wenger, that anything represents a positive change from him.

How is any of this personal? It's no different to fans wanting an under performing player benched or sold.

I have no idea whose apart of the 'Anyone but Wenger' brigade but from this thread alone you've got my views on the criteria for the next coach along with a few others. Second, I think you've misunderstood why people want him gone. It's not fueled by a fear of dropping out of the top four. It's that tedious feeling you get when watching a game, or the transfer window, the press comments from players and coach....we've heard it all and seen it all before and nothing is changing. Our style is a bore to watch and we're no longer exciting. It's all been said on a thousand times so there shouldn't be a need for me to regurgitate. It's an on going cycle I just want out of. Even if a Top 4 spot could be guaranteed for the next 10 years under Wenger, I wouldn't want it because I'm so tired seeing the same mistakes repeated.

There are no guarantees in this situation. Martinez is one of the names floating around but there really is no point in playing the 'name that manager' game. I know I don't have enough time to watch all the top leagues and teams to know whose doing what and where and I'm that's true for most. Martinez is the hot name buzzing around in the Prem at the moment and because this is the league we all mainly watch, maybe that's the easiest of names to pick out along with the Klopp's and Pep's.

Also, I wasn't implying we've overachieved by staying in the Top 4. Far from it. I can't speak for everyone, but the argument that keeps getting thrown back is that if we change manager, we could get worse and fall out of the top 4. Sticking with the status quo which seemed to be what you were implying with the 'leaky roof and no tools' response to my analogy. There must be candidates out there that can do the job and as another poster said and the OP stated, we're not putting a firm deadline on when he has to go. It's just a general discussion and I'm hoping the Board have their eye open now and are ready to act if a suitable candidate pops up and one will.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Has anyone checked on Ollie today? Someone needs to drive to beachy head and see if his car's there.

[McNamara That Ghost...]

Us not being in the Champions League. :lol:

No thanks. Although I suppose there comes a point every season when we aren't in. Or March as we like to call it.

WUMger can stay, he got the albatross of not winning something away from us, this will be his last contact so just going to wait it out.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

#WeWantOurOllieBack

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think there are people on this board who are quite vitriolic towards Wenger, and whilst this doesn't offend my personal sensibilities i tend to be less inclined to take any real interest in what they have to say. I haven't directed my comments at you personally, but i don't think i am attacking a straw man either.
I also think a lot of responses to what i have had to say has been directed at me like i am pro-wenger or a wenger apologist, but i am also quite conservative and risk adverse and i have quite consistently stated that i don't want someone to come in who has no previous experience of winning major silverware and managing at the top level (i.e champions league) therefore for me the "name that manager" game as you call it would be crucial to my decision making.
But and this is the important point it's all academic, unless he relegates us or gets arrested in relation to Op Yewtree investigations he is with us till 2017; it was a poor decision by the board but unfortunately we have to live with it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Has anyone checked on Ollie today? Someone needs to drive to beachy head and see if his car's there.

That's the problem with this country, we are always so concerned about stopping people from committing suicide....as long as he's not inconveniencing anyone else let him do it

[Power n Glory]

I think there are people on this board who are quite vitriolic towards Wenger, and whilst this doesn't offend my personal sensibilities i tend to be less inclined to take any real interest in what they have to say. I haven't directed my comments at you personally, but i don't think i am attacking a straw man either.
I also think a lot of responses to what i have had to say has been directed at me like i am pro-wenger or a wenger apologist, but i am also quite conservative and risk adverse and i have quite consistently stated that i don't want someone to come in who has no previous experience of winning major silverware and managing at the top level (i.e champions league) therefore for me the "name that manager" game as you call it would be crucial to my decision making.
But and this is the important point it's all academic, unless he relegates us or gets arrested in relation to Op Yewtree investigations he is with us till 2017; it was a poor decision by the board but unfortunately we have to live with it.

There is no decision to make on this one. It's just your feeling on how the manager is doing and whether it's time he calls it a day. That's what the poll is about. The OP said he didn't want this sort of debate and talk of the details of who we get and when. Just a simple yes or no. As things progress, I'm sure they'll be further debates but I seriously doubt we'll know how the process will go when it's time for him to walk. In most cases, you just don't know whose available as manager until someone is sacked or leaves. That's usually very late in the day.

As for the language used on here towards Wenger.....you're talking to football fans! :lol: We have guys on here that have no problem calling refs and linesmen 'cunts', bent, or whatever else when a decision doesn't go our way. Our own players aren't even spared. From Diaby to Wilshere to Ramsey if they're having a bad day. Former players that served us well are cast aside even. Sometimes I disagree with what's been said as well but I never assume it's personal. It's cool if you don't take an interest in what they say, but that seems the opposite from where I'm sitting because you seem to know a lot of the common things said on here.

[Power n Glory]

That's the problem with this country, we are always so concerned about stopping people from committing suicide....as long as he's not inconveniencing anyone else let him do it

:haha:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

There is no decision to make on this one. It's just your feeling on how the manager is doing and whether it's time he calls it a day. That's what the poll is about.

For me my judgement on whether he should call it a day is based completely on who we had in mind to replace him with, making it much like the referendum that was held yesterday i imagine a lot of people who voted No didn't do so out of any love for the Union or any desire to call themselves British instead of Scottish it's just they weren't convinced by the alternative and played it safe.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

As for the language used on here towards Wenger.....you're talking to football fans! :lol: We have guys on here that have no problem calling refs and linesmen 'cunts', bent, or whatever else when a decision doesn't go our way. Our own players aren't even spared. From Diaby to Wilshere to Ramsey if they're having a bad day. Former players that served us well are cast aside even. Sometimes I disagree with what's been said as well but I never assume it's personal. It's cool if you don't take an interest in what they say, but that seems the opposite from where I'm sitting because you seem to know a lot of the common things said on here.

Like i said it doesn't in any way offend me, i just find myself less interested in someone's argument if it's not articulated well. We all call the players unspeakable things out of frustration, it's not really a cojent argument though it's vitriolic abuse. It doesn't bother me that it's that, vitriolic abuse is fun and allows people to vent their frustrations....but it certainly isn't persuasive in any shape or form.

[Niall_Quinn]

For me my judgement on whether he should call it a day is based completely on who we had in mind to replace him with, making it much like the referendum that was held yesterday i imagine a lot of people who voted No didn't do so out of any love for the Union or any desire to call themselves British instead of Scottish it's just they weren't convinced by the alternative and played it safe.

I think they voted no mostly because they are stupid, cowardly, grovelling cunts.

[Maestro]

So you've voted for independence, too bad Mugabe is not budging!

Some really interesting debate generated and quite a few home truths regards WUMget's performance review. I am convinced Wenger is GWer, how else could he be the best WUM in the business. I love the bastard immensely, but the post below from MOe best describes my opinion.

PS* If we sacked WUmget at the end of a season there would be no shortage of really good managers queueing up to take that job, so let's not scaremonger please. It's really down to the people charged with replacing him making the right decision.





I felt he should have left with his head held high after the cup win, however I think he also deserved a chance to spend some of the new money that wasn't previously available to him. There was some cause for optimism after winning the cup and landing a player like Sanchez but it seems like we're not really much stronger as a team, arguably weaker right now thanks to the regression of a defence that was previously ok.

He shot himself in the foot in the transfer window, for the first time in years he had backing from the masses but now he's back to square one. Not signing adequate numbers in defence was just plain foolish and he completely missed a trick by not bringing Cesc back or at least finding an upgrade on Flamini/Arteta.

We're consistently exposed against sides of quality and even the lesser teams are able to really get stuck into us. There is no tactical nous, the team play like they've just been told to go out there and do their thing, they start every match like they're on auto-pilot and only seem to react when they've been caught cold. Why does he persist with such an ineffective style of play? We have a fair bit of pace now and Giroud is out of the picture, so why not mix things up. Square pegs in round holes everywhere hoping to replicate some sort of lite version of tiki-taka.

The problem is the man doesn't give a damn about we think, if anything the more we complain about something the more he'll turn a blind eye to it. He's too far gone and stuck in his ways, there's nothing progressive or innovative about what he's doing anymore, it's stale and there are a host of younger managers who have more going for them now. People say we couldn't have signed someone like Ozil without him which is true, but what good is that when he can't even extract the required quality out of him. That guy looks like an absolute shell of a player under Wenger's management, not too dissimilar to other previously highly rated players who have been and gone over the past 5-6 years.

He's been a top manager for us but unless there is dramatic success coming over the next 3 years, he's going to leave with his legacy tarnished and that's just sad because he is a great man who has put this club in a position we couldn't have dreamed about 20 years ago.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

So you've voted for independence, too bad Mugabe is not budging!

Some really interesting debate generated and quite a few home truths regards WUMget's performance review. I am convinced Wenger is GWer, how else could he be the best WUM in the business. I love the bastard immensely, but the post below from MOe best describes my opinion.

PS* If we sacked WUmget at the end of a season there would be no shortage of really good managers queueing up to take that job, so let's not scaremonger please. It's really down to the people charged with replacing him making the right decision.

No-one is scare mongering, i am not saying we should keep Wenger because we won't get in a top manager, i am saying Wenger should go IF we can get in a top manager.

[Kano]

No-one is scare mongering, i am not saying we should keep Wenger because we won't get in a top manager, i am saying Wenger should go IF we can get in a top manager.

That's not really part of the debate we can explore much as fans. Knowledge contained behind closed doors will always be ahead of what we know out here. Who is available and who isn't really something we can base this decision on. The only sensible criteria is to look Wenger's management over the past few years. We can't guarantee the next guy will be better even if he has a proven record elsewhere. The only single guarantee is that Wenger will not change. Remember we knew nothing about this guy before he utterly transformed our club.

[Globalgunner]

I think they voted no mostly because they are stupid, cowardly, grovelling cunts.

Not as cowardly as the myopic dunderheads on here who know Wenger is the main problem at the club but don't want him to leave simply because he brings the guarantee of 4th place. To what end is the 4th place? because we are never going to win the CL under him. More to the point, his continued ineptitude in this competition brings the whole rationale of the 4th place into jeopardy. Currently EPL, La Liga and the Bundesliga have 4 places. Serie A lost 1 place to the bundesliga as Italian teams started to toil. The same could happen here If we continue to flounder, all it takes is for 1 Italian team to probably reach the final or win it for the EPL card to be marked. The very thing we hold dear above all could be our Waterloo. It would be better for the English league for us to drop out and a team with the means and manager to take our place.

Sadly I dont think, even 5th place would be enough for the man to resign, he doesn't have enough pride for that and will probably still see out his contract

[Munchies]

He needs to stop signing players and pushing them where they aren't able to play in.

Just look at Arshavin.

Same thing happening to Ozil

[Maestro]

myopic dunderheads :haha:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's not really part of the debate we can explore much as fans. Knowledge contained behind closed doors will always be ahead of what we know out here. Who is available and who isn't really something we can base this decision on. The only sensible criteria is to look Wenger's management over the past few years. We can't guarantee the next guy will be better even if he has a proven record elsewhere. The only single guarantee is that Wenger will not change. Remember we knew nothing about this guy before he utterly transformed our club.

what are you talking about?...we can't actually influence any part of this.....wenger won't go because of what the fans want.....he is here until 2017 so the whole exercise is academic.

We are having a debate whether he should go, and again i have said consistently if the right person is brought in to replace him than yes, otherwise it would be pointless.

[Niall_Quinn]

Not as cowardly as the myopic dunderheads on here who know Wenger is the main problem at the club but don't want him to leave simply because he brings the guarantee of 4th place. To what end is the 4th place? because we are never going to win the CL under him. More to the point, his continued ineptitude in this competition brings the whole rationale of the 4th place into jeopardy. Currently EPL, La Liga and the Bundesliga have 4 places. Serie A lost 1 place to the bundesliga as Italian teams started to toil. The same could happen here If we continue to flounder, all it takes is for 1 Italian team to probably reach the final or win it for the EPL card to be marked. The very thing we hold dear above all could be our Waterloo. It would be better for the English league for us to drop out and a team with the means and manager to take our place.

Sadly I dont think, even 5th place would be enough for the man to resign, he doesn't have enough pride for that and will probably still see out his contract

If you want Wenger replaced then do it properly instead of trying to kill him with toys being lobbed out of a pram. There's 1001 more things to consider than one performance against Dortmund. He's signed a contract and he's here for the next few seasons. We all know his flaws on the pitch, but we also know his strengths off it and overall it bodes well for the right man to be be brought in at the right time and in the right way.

[Globalgunner]

Its only toys out of the pram because you say so. In reality its 10 years of the same anodyne shit

[The Dismantler]

wenger out, he is like a dictator now....

[Niall_Quinn]

Its only toys out of the pram because you say so. In reality its 10 years of the same anodyne shit

No, mostly everyone was calm enough going in on the back of a few good signings. Perplexed at the defence for sure, in full realisation things haven't changed in terms of tactics etc, sure. Normal stuff that comes from the 10 years you mention. But no Wenger out campaign. The last game ratcheted that up again. All pointless because he's here and nothing will be changing for the next few seasons.

[Globalgunner]

No, mostly everyone was calm enough going in on the back of a few good signings. Perplexed at the defence for sure, in full realisation things haven't changed in terms of tactics etc, sure. Normal stuff that comes from the 10 years you mention. But no Wenger out campaign. The last game ratcheted that up again. All pointless because he's here and nothing will be changing for the next few seasons.
You argue like a woman who always has to get the last word even though its to say the same thing over and over again. The OP asked a rhetorical question. Wenger in or out?. People have voted based on seeing us not progress even though the players have changed. If we only discussed issues here that the powers that be would read and act on. Then the only thing that would be valid to talk about is that you are not Irish and actually was born in Kenya, living here on a false passport.

[Niall_Quinn]

More the nature of a forum I think. One person says something, the other responds, and so on. Wasn't really a rhetorical poll as that would be utterly pointless by default, if you think about it. More a theoretical question. In theory, Wenger in because by the time his contract ends, even if we haven't won a thing, we'll be in a glorious position for the right man to step in. Theoretically, getting rid of him now might yield a result, or it could produce a van Gaal. No point doing it when we know that Wenger is the tried and tested guy to deliver the best platform on which the next guy can take us up a level.

[I am invisible]

Interesting listening to the 606 drive-time phone-in yesterday - as expected, a few unhappy United fans shaking their heads at what they're seeing, but, more surprisingly, quite a few worried Liverpool and Everton fans phoning in too (really surprised by the amount of criticism Martinez was getting)?

Not sure why I'm sticking this in here really - perspective, I guess? Whilst I'm still of the opinion that we probably won't seriously challenge for the big prizes again under Wenger (I just can't see him ever addressing a couple of the ongoing problems that keep cropping up), it's still worth having a look at what's going on around you every now and then. Chelsea might be off to a flier, but all of the other big sides in the league have made pretty inconsistent, erratic starts to the campaign, and, in terms of the league, we're actually ahead of Man City, Liverpool, Man U, Everton and spufs? Things aren't perfect, but they're not that bad either...

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Not as cowardly as the myopic dunderheads on here who know Wenger is the main problem at the club but don't want him to leave simply because he brings the guarantee of 4th place. To what end is the 4th place? because we are never going to win the CL under him. More to the point, his continued ineptitude in this competition brings the whole rationale of the 4th place into jeopardy. Currently EPL, La Liga and the Bundesliga have 4 places. Serie A lost 1 place to the bundesliga as Italian teams started to toil. The same could happen here If we continue to flounder, all it takes is for 1 Italian team to probably reach the final or win it for the EPL card to be marked. The very thing we hold dear above all could be our Waterloo. It would be better for the English league for us to drop out and a team with the means and manager to take our place.

Sadly I dont think, even 5th place would be enough for the man to resign, he doesn't have enough pride for that and will probably still see out his contract

Post of the year tbh

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

You argue like a woman who always has to get the last word even though its to say the same thing over and over again. The OP asked a rhetorical question. Wenger in or out?. People have voted based on seeing us not progress even though the players have changed. If we only discussed issues here that the powers that be would read and act on. Then the only thing that would be valid to talk about is that you are not Irish and actually was born in Kenya, living here on a false passport.

:haha:

NQ's been NQ'd.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Interesting listening to the 606 drive-time phone-in yesterday - as expected, a few unhappy United fans shaking their heads at what they're seeing, but, more surprisingly, quite a few worried Liverpool and Everton fans phoning in too (really surprised by the amount of criticism Martinez was getting) ...
Well it was Oscar Wilde who said to lose at home once to Crystal Palace is a misfortune, to do it twice is careless.

[I am invisible]

Well it was Oscar Wilde who said to lose at home once to Crystal Palace is a misfortune, to do it twice is careless.

I was just thinking the exact same thing! :unsure:

[Dein-machine]

This thread was bound to "calm down" after 3 points at Villa but we shouldn't see it as any more than a poor performance against a very poor Villa team, virus or not.
The main reasoning in favour of keeping Wenger was that NOW that he has money to spend, lets see where he can take us. Bearing in mind he's got us C.L football for the past decade+ with a comparatively low budget & that in a year where the money allowed him to break our transfer record, we win the FA Cup, lets give him the chance to take us to the next level.
The 4th place finishes are fact, the FA cup is fact, we have world renown players like Ozil & Sanchez - fact but there are other facts aswell:
1, Wenger has never been able to build on success in the past, rather than continue to strengthen with quality, he let others over take us, time & time again, by sticking with mediocre players that should have been moved on.
2, Failed to replicate a winning formula by not adding like for like replacements. For example when Vierra was being touted for Spain or Italy at the end of his time for us, Yaya was sitting on the bench at Barca (natural replacement & we had his brother to help)
3, Continued failure to buy quality where it is needed, recently the striker, CB & DM areas have been woeful & way short of the quality required to compete at the top level.
4, We have regressed in relation to challenging for EPL & CL over the past 10 years.
5, We are playing boring, predictable football that has not evolved at all, trying to play the Barca way without Barca quality players.
Some on here are suggesting that it is "better the devil you know" for the next few years as it could be dangerous to hand over the reigns to a potential "Moyes", but some were saying that before his last contract & so it continues. I would suggest that's its not a case of " Can we risk letting Wenger go" - more like " Can we risk more of the same for the next few years" - especially as others are progressing.

[fakeyank]

This thread was bound to "calm down" after 3 points at Villa but we shouldn't see it as any more than a poor performance against a very poor Villa team, virus or not.
The main reasoning in favour of keeping Wenger was that NOW that he has money to spend, lets see where he can take us. Bearing in mind he's got us C.L football for the past decade+ with a comparatively low budget & that in a year where the money allowed him to break our transfer record, we win the FA Cup, lets give him the chance to take us to the next level.
The 4th place finishes are fact, the FA cup is fact, we have world renown players like Ozil & Sanchez - fact but there are other facts aswell:
1, Wenger has never been able to build on success in the past, rather than continue to strengthen with quality, he let others over take us, time & time again, by sticking with mediocre players that should have been moved on.
2, Failed to replicate a winning formula by not adding like for like replacements. For example when Vierra was being touted for Spain or Italy at the end of his time for us, Yaya was sitting on the bench at Barca (natural replacement & we had his brother to help)
3, Continued failure to buy quality where it is needed, recently the striker, CB & DM areas have been woeful & way short of the quality required to compete at the top level.
4, We have regressed in relation to challenging for EPL & CL over the past 10 years.
5, We are playing boring, predictable football that has not evolved at all, trying to play the Barca way without Barca quality players.
Some on here are suggesting that it is "better the devil you know" for the next few years as it could be dangerous to hand over the reigns to a potential "Moyes", but some were saying that before his last contract & so it continues. I would suggest that's its not a case of " Can we risk letting Wenger go" - more like " Can we risk more of the same for the next few years" - especially as others are progressing.

:gp:

Just wait till we hit the 8-9 game unbeaten run :lol:

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

On the point of Yaya Toure, for reasons of factual accuracy i'd point out that when Vieira was touted around, Yaya was playing for Metalurh Donetsk and when Vieira joined Juventus he was playing for Olympiakos until 2006 when he joined Monaco for a season, before then joining Barcelona in 2007.

Also Yaya Toure tweeted abusive things to me because i'd forgotten to post his birthday card.

[mr_brighterside]

some suggestion on the Reus transfer that this is part of a wenger/klopp love in as wenger prepares for hand over. soo hope so!

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Not sure where to put this but Ozil let out this interesting nugget in his post match Villa comments.


"We knew exactly what strengths we would have. We analysed Aston Villa before the game and knew how they would play. Especially in the first half, we created some very clear opportunities. We didn't waste our chances - we took them and that made the game easier for us.


http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/20140922/ozil-the-fans-gave-me-self-belief

Bolded the bit that I'm immensely pleased with.

One of the main criticisms last season was that we did zero research on our opponents and instead focused on our own game which of course led to some of the massive defeats we witnessed with the team refusing to adapt to different opponents. Could this be a sign of a different tact of approach now this year?

Didn't look like that way against Dortmund of course as we looked unprepared with their high intensity pressing game which everyone is familiar with, but maybe that could have genuinely been a bad day at the office instead of something more inherently wrong perhaps?

[Letters]

:gp:

Just wait till we hit the 8-9 game unbeaten run :lol:

If a couple of bad performances and results can make all the bed setters wet the bed again then why wouldn't a good run of that length sway people? :shrug:

And while I agree with a lot of Dein-machine's post the last sentence about other teams progressing. Are they? City and Chelsea have spent shitloads again, they will always be hard to compete with though. Has anyone else progressed?

[Xhaka Can’t]

We analysed Aston Villa before the game and knew how they would play.

It was a translation error. Substitute 'how' with 'where' and someone set the satnav on the coach.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If a couple of bad performances and results can make all the bed setters wet the bed again then why wouldn't a good run of that length sway people? :shrug:

And while I agree with a lot of Dein-machine's post the last sentence about other teams progressing. Are they? City and Chelsea have spent shitloads again, they will always be hard to compete with though. Has anyone else progressed?

United have.

You just can't comprehend the genius of it all.

[Power n Glory]

If a couple of bad performances and results can make all the bed setters wet the bed again then why wouldn't a good run of that length sway people? :shrug:

And while I agree with a lot of Dein-machine's post the last sentence about other teams progressing. Are they? City and Chelsea have spent shitloads again, they will always be hard to compete with though. Has anyone else progressed?

It's like you've been watching a different team over the last 10 years. It's not just a couple of bad performances.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger has hailed the strength of character in Abou Diaby following his latest comeback from serious injury.

The 28-year-old France midfielder has been dogged with injuries his entire career and has made just 41 appearances in all competitions for the Gunners over the last four seasons.

He most recently tore the anterior cruciate ligament in his left knee, leaving him sidelined for over a year, and made his comeback on the final day of last season.

Diaby is set to make his first appearance of the current campaign in Tuesday night’s Capital One Cup clash at home to Southampton and Wenger said: “He deserves a lot of respect.

"He is a giant, mentally, to do what he has done. With the severe injuries he has had, he comes back every time and is dedicated.

"Diaby played 90 minutes at Villa Park for the under-21s last week. He was with us at Villa Park again on Saturday and he will play against Southampton on Tuesday.

"I am a huge believer in his quality and I am sad that he couldn't show it more. If there is some justice, the future will be much better for him."

Wenger also confirmed youngsters Hector Bellerin, Isaac Hayden, Chuba Akpom and Semi Ajayi will all be given a chance to impress against the Saints.

"We still have a team of experienced players and we want to do well in this competition," he said

"I believe this is an opportunity to give a game to players who need it. We go into a period where we play, and play, and play, and we want to continue to win our games."

http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11670/9484360/arsenal-boss-arsene-wenger-hails-strength-of-abou-diaby-ahead-of-return



Diaby deserves respect?! What for?? Picking up his 60k a week and doing fuck all in return for nearly a decade?!?!

Wenger :haha: :haha: :haha:

[Alpha]

If you think that just changing the manager will improve the team then Wenger has to go . But if you look around and see what is happening elsewhere ( Man U as a prime example ) then you have to think twice .
For me , Wenger is still the man for us but he needs someone to put pressure on his to buy good players .
Bring Dein back and keep Wenger .

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

For me , Wenger is still the man for us but he needs someone to put pressure on his to buy good players .
Bring Dein back and keep Wenger .

Gazidis has started doing that by buying Welbeck behind Wenger's back

We've bought players, changed board members yet there's been one constant

We know where the problem lies.

[selassie]

If a couple of bad performances and results can make all the bed setters wet the bed again then why wouldn't a good run of that length sway people? :shrug:

And while I agree with a lot of Dein-machine's post the last sentence about other teams progressing. Are they? City and Chelsea have spent shitloads again, they
will always be hard to compete with though. Has anyone else progressed?

It runs a lot deeper than a couple of bad performances, it's primarily about Wenger not using his resources wisely and his tactical flaws, in regards to the resources he's not even financially handicapped, so to go into this season with such an imbalanced squad is an unneccessary risk. In regards to the tactical flaws...I am just interested to see how we fair in a few weeks time away to Chelsea, it will be interesting to see how Wenger lines us up and how we approach the game.

About our main rivals, of course City and Chelsea both have deeper squads than ours, though I wouldn't say they are far superior to us. I think we could go someway to bridging the gap by adding a bit of quality and depth to the defensive areas of our squad, I am not talking about spending 30million on a CB, just a couple of really solid signings.

[I am invisible]

To be fair to Wenger, even in his most baffling moments, I don't think he's ever sunk this low...

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/29319599

[Letters]

It runs a lot deeper than a couple of bad performances

I understand that but even the most hardened of the 'Wenger Out' brigade was conceding he deserved a chance to build on last season. A couple of bad performances (and still only one poor result, Leicester away although after Utd's comedy show up there maybe that wasn't so bad. :lol:) and they all pipe up again. Fakeyank keeps making the point that a string of good results will sway people as though that's an unreasonable thing. It's a results business, of course good results will influence people although I take the point that the context of the last 10 years is relevant. That said, I don't regard the last 10 years as the unmitigated disaster some on here make out it has been.

[fakeyank]

City and Chelsea have spent shitloads again, they will always be hard to compete with though

This is not necessarily true. We had a net spent of 54 million compared to 15 and 25 of Chelsea and City respectively.

[Letters]

What have I told you about using facts? :angry:

Interesting. Those two will always be difficult to compete with because of their infinite money cheat though.

[LDG]

Wenger out!

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger out!

He can stay if he will only agree to make a few decent subs now and again.

[Injury Time]

He can stay if he will only agree to make a few decent subs now and again.

:rose:

[selassie]

Wenger Out! Wenger Out! Wenger Out!

http://invinciblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/11/wenger-sh1t-e1353057597722.png

[Power n Glory]

I understand that but even the most hardened of the 'Wenger Out' brigade was conceding he deserved a chance to build on last season. A couple of bad performances (and still only one poor result, Leicester away although after Utd's comedy show up there maybe that wasn't so bad. :lol:) and they all pipe up again. Fakeyank keeps making the point that a string of good results will sway people as though that's an unreasonable thing. It's a results business, of course good results will influence people although I take the point that the context of the last 10 years is relevant. That said, I don't regard the last 10 years as the unmitigated disaster some on here make out it has been.

I don’t think you understand at all. It’s the fact that we’re going into the season threadbare with injury problems again. It just looks like we’re repeating the same steps and shot ourselves in the foot before the season has really kicked off.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Letters :lol:

Lost cause.

[Dein-machine]

In any other business, & we are a business, an MD who constantly promises to compete for the big contracts but constantly fails to deliver because of poor decisions on staff or machinery would be sacked.
If Wenger & the board came out to tell us that due to the financial clout of the Chavs & Mancs we really only see 4th place as a possibility & that getting out of the group stage was our ambition regarding the C.L, then I can see sense in some of what the Pro-Wengerites have to say on here.
That however is not what we have been told. They can't afford to say that because they know what backlash they would get regarding the promises made to move out of Highbury & the extortionate ticket prices we pay.
The Chavs & Mancs can only have so many players in a squad. Even though they can afford it, it is not practical to have 22 £50 mill players in a squad due to unrest & ofcourse financial fair play. There is absolutely zero excuse to use money as a reason for us not having adequate squad strength. We have the money but we go through the same shit every year, each year thinking "surely Wenger has learnt his lesson this time ".

[Letters]

Financial fair play :lol:
Yeah. City really came a cropper when they fell foul of that rule.

And what City and Chelsea do is buy players and then loan them out so competing clubs can't have them. In City's case the owners have bought other clubs to stockpile players.

Whatever you think about the move from Highbury there's no way we'd be anywhere near the top 4 had we not moved. And no manager is getting sacked having just won a major trophy and finished with the most points for 6 years.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Financial fair play :lol:
Yeah. City really came a cropper when they fell foul of that rule.

And what City and Chelsea do is buy players and then loan them out so competing clubs can't have them. In City's case the owners have bought other clubs to stockpile players.

Whatever you think about the move from Highbury there's no way we'd be anywhere near the top 4 had we not moved. And no manager is getting sacked having just won a major trophy and finished with the most points for 6 years.

:lol: Cause mediocre fans like you are satisfied.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Not really. I want a new manager because I have no confidence at all in Wenger doing what it takes to maximize our chances to fulfill this club's potential. But accept that Letters argument holds true. There is no way, Wenger is getting the bullet after winning the FA Cup

[Letters]

:lol: Cause mediocre fans like you are satisfied.

Yes, yes. You're a much better fan than me and I'm sure your dad can beat up my dad (probably true, actually)

[KSE Comedy Club]

Letters, isn't that your post from 2-3 years ago?? :shrug:

[Syn]

:lol: at anyone not treating Wumfer like the throbbing sphincter dictator that he is. That dopey French stale fudge raping prodigal cock sack.

#standardgoonerswebpoasts http://foulomatic.hnldesign.nl/

[Penguin]

I still think we should let him see out his contract, barring a catastrophe. He's earned at least that much. But after that I want us to bring in a new manager with fresh ideas and more of a winning mentality and drive, even if Wenger wins one of the major titles.

[Shaqiri Is Boss]

:lol: at anyone not treating Wumfer like the throbbing sphincter dictator that he is. That dopey French stale fudge raping prodigal cock sack.

#standardgoonerswebpoasts http://foulomatic.hnldesign.nl/

fudge slapper :lol:
irredemable cockstorm sock :lol:
fat scrotum wiper :lol:

Literally hours of bum banging cunt rag fun.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Letters, isn't that your post from 2-3 years ago?? :shrug:

:haha:

[Xhaka Can’t]

This place is a fuckwit blender.

[Maestro]

This place is a fuckwit blender.

So first we are myopic dunderheads, and now we are in a fuckwit blender. That's just perfect lads, just perfect.

[Letters]

Moussaka out :angry:

[Injury Time]

Moussaka out :angry:

Moussakaist :sulk:

A fuck it torch the cunts :threaten:

[Letters]

Letters, isn't that your post from 2-3 years ago?? :shrug:

Which one? Probably though, most of the posts on here are.
The endless Groundhog Day is one of the frustrations of most Arsenal fans, even mediocre ones.

[Dein-machine]

Financial fair play :lol:
Yeah. City really came a cropper when they fell foul of that rule.

And what City and Chelsea do is buy players and then loan them out so competing clubs can't have them. In City's case the owners have bought other clubs to stockpile players.

Whatever you think about the move from Highbury there's no way we'd be anywhere near the top 4 had we not moved. And no manager is getting sacked having just won a major trophy and finished with the most points for 6 years.

Liverpool, Everton & the Spuds haven't moved to a bigger stadium & still compete for top 4. What makes you think we couldn't had we stayed at Highbury.

[mastermind84]

Liverpool, Everton & the Spuds haven't moved to a bigger stadium & still compete for top 4. What makes you think we couldn't had we stayed at Highbury.
Is this a serious post?

None of those teams are consistent top 4 teams. Liverpool fell off a cliff and Spurs have only made CL once.

The stadium was imperative.




As for the Wumget, he is finished tactically and dont even know it. He is done, imo but no one is going to tell him he is done at the club so we are stuck.

[Letters]

Is this a serious post?

None of those teams are consistent top 4 teams. Liverpool fell off a cliff and Spurs have only made CL once.

The stadium was imperative.
Innit. And two of those clubs are looking to move because of the revenue it will generate.

[Bumble]

Innit. And two of those clubs are looking to move because of the revenue it will generate.
all three clubs are moving or increasing capacity at their stadiums. they sorted of competed for 4th place but due to our bigger resources and stability they haven't generally managed it.

we have been consistent but have never overachieved since the emergence of City and the Chavs. We are consistently top 4 but so is our wage bill and that's a better indicator than transfer spend alone.

Anyway Wenger is here for next 3 years, we will finish top 4 each year and that's about it.

[Dein-machine]

The advantages of moving to a bigger stadium, with bigger revenue means we increase our finances - it doesn't mean success on the field as we've seen because we don't spend to strengthen where needed. If these increased finances were being used in the correct way to build a squad to compete at top level then there wouldn't be many anti-Wenger posters on here. To start this season with extremelly weak defensive cover, no decent DM & Giroud as the only recognized CF, we could have had this staying at Highbury. Wenger is not using the advantage the stadium move has given us, we will be further away than ever this year in Europe & already struggling to beat pub teams in the league with the boring, sideways passing football that we play.
To make use of our new found financial windfall, we need a different approach from someone who recognizes what it takes to compete - Wenger cannot compete tactically these days, especially against top teams & his idea of a strong squad is simply pathetic.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Liverpool, Everton & the Spuds haven't moved to a bigger stadium & still compete for top 4. What makes you think we couldn't had we stayed at Highbury.

Spot on

[Dein-machine]

Innit. And two of those clubs are looking to move because of the revenue it will generate.

I think all 3 clubs are looking to move for revenue reasons but will they do it & be a less competitive team 10 years later?

[WMUG]

Spot on

:lol:

Brilliant.

Despite this being thoroughly debunked 4 posts up, just take the one post on the page that you agree with and go with it, adding another brick to the castle that is Wenger out movement on GW.

Regardless of facts. Regardless of arguments. Wenger out because Wenger out.

Just perfect.

[Injury Time]

Wenger out.

Just perfect.

This.

[Injury Time]

:whistle:
My jury is still out, 3 years is plenty of time to recruit a replacement...a good one please:pray:

[Dein-machine]

:lol:

Brilliant.

Despite this being thoroughly debunked 4 posts up, just take the one post on the page that you agree with and go with it, adding another brick to the castle that is Wenger out movement on GW.

Regardless of facts. Regardless of arguments. Wenger out because Wenger out.

Just perfect.

Debunked by whom though, the rose tinted glasses brigade. We are in a fight every year for 4th with teams who have 30,000+ seater stadiums & less financial clout than us, so I fail to see how anyone can suggest we couldn't be doing the same if we'd stayed at Highbury.

[Özim]

And no manager is getting sacked having just won a major trophy and finished with the most points for 6 years.

Not strictly true, however in most cases it is. He should however have lost his job a number of years ago.

[Niall_Quinn]

Staying at Highbury wasn't an option, not in the long term.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-caiNITy7Rt8/VB8ueppTpZI/AAAAAAAAHpI/W17JjmavXuo/s1600/10%2BMoney%2BLeague.jpg

If you look at the match day column and compare that to our closest rivals the Emirates effect is obvious. There are no transfer funds available without the stadium move considering we have owners who don't invest their cash into the club directly. Look how far behind we are in terms of sponsorship. There's growth potential there (as we have seen), and again that will be on the back of the stadium move and future revenues. If we stayed at Highbury we could still be battling it out for 4th I suppose, maybe. But if we have genuine ambitions to get to the top then the stadium move is a key part of that.

Full article here:
http://swissramble.blogspot.ie/2014/09/arsenal-money-changes-everything.html

[Dein-machine]

Staying at Highbury wasn't an option, not in the long term.

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-caiNITy7Rt8/VB8ueppTpZI/AAAAAAAAHpI/W17JjmavXuo/s1600/10%2BMoney%2BLeague.jpg

If you look at the match day column and compare that to our closest rivals the Emirates effect is obvious. There are no transfer funds available without the stadium move considering we have owners who don't invest their cash into the club directly. Look how far behind we are in terms of sponsorship. There's growth potential there (as we have seen), and again that will be on the back of the stadium move and future revenues. If we stayed at Highbury we could still be battling it out for 4th I suppose, maybe. But if we have genuine ambitions to get to the top then the stadium move is a key part of that.

Full article here:
http://swissramble.blogspot.ie/2014/09/arsenal-money-changes-everything.html

Whats the use of having money if you're manager can't spend it correctly or wont.
Also, Athletico Madrid won the Spanish league & got to C.L. final last year - would we not be bringing in 103 mill of total revenue by now if we were still at Highbury.

[Niall_Quinn]

But that's a different argument. Fact is we would be out of the hunt and no manager could do anything about it had we not made the move. Now we have the opportunity to provide substantial funds to whatever manager needs them, be it Wenger or somebody else.

[Dein-machine]

And no manager is getting sacked having just won a major trophy and finished with the most points for 6 years.

:d - try telling that to Di Mateo who won a major trophy, unlike the FA Cup.

[WMUG]

Debunked by whom though, the rose tinted glasses brigade. So?


We are in a fight every year for 4th with teams who have 30,000+ seater stadiums & less financial clout than us

Yes we are. And we win. Every year.


so I fail to see how anyone can suggest we couldn't be doing the same if we'd stayed at Highbury.

My guess is, and obviously we'll never know, that we'd have failed to get into the top 4 at least once in the last 9 years if we'd stayed.

[Dein-machine]

But that's a different argument. Fact is we would be out of the hunt and no manager could do anything about it had we not made the move. Now we have the opportunity to provide substantial funds to whatever manager needs them, be it Wenger or somebody else.

But then why can Athletico have success without big stadium revenue.
Answer is good tactical manager who is able to get the most from his players & by having quality players in every position - all this with a stadium that brings in 25% of what the Emirates does for us.

[Xhaka Can’t]

The assertions being made here are too simplistic. We have not been competing with the aforementioned clubs for fourth place. In the time period mentioned we have been the only one of those clubs to have been consistently in a position to be competitive for fourth while being successful in that respect every single time.

Everton have popped up very sporadically while never making the Group stage, Tottenham managed it once and coukdnt sustain it, Liverpool have returned from a few years in the wilderness. Not once have any of those Clubs achieved CL qualification at our expense.

I think that over large periods of the past 10 years it has actually been quite an achievement by the Club to qualify for the CL while successfully completing the largest capital expenditure project ever undertaken by any club in world football, and it's aftermath which coincided completely with the global financial crisis.

Anyone with a sensible outlook would have anticipated, no matter what contrary assurances had been made that this would impact on the clubs ability to compete given the level of change that occurred, which also included a seismic change in the economic landscape of the sport.

I think Wenger was the right guy to take us through all the pain. But it is clearly evident to me that as time has moved on and we now have the funds to compete, that he is not the right man for now. He hasn't the tactical nous to make the best of what he has nor is he using the resources we have as a club now to anything like it's full potential.

That said. Wenger has been the most important and influential person at the club in my lifetime, and his legacy should be one that is felt for many years after he is gone.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

The assertions being made here are too simplistic. We have not been competing with the aforementioned clubs for fourth place. In the time period mentioned we have been the only one of those clubs to have been consistently in a position to be competitive for fourth while being successful in that respect every single time.

Everton have popped up very sporadically while never making the Group stage, Tottenham managed it once and coukdnt sustain it, Liverpool have returned from a few years in the wilderness. Not once have any of those Clubs achieved CL qualification at our expense.

I think that over large periods of the past 10 years it has actually been quite an achievement by the Club to qualify for the CL while successfully completing the largest capital expenditure project ever undertaken by any club in world football, and it's aftermath which coincided completely with the global financial crisis.

Anyone with a sensible outlook would have anticipated, no matter what contrary assurances had been made that this would impact on the clubs ability to compete given the level of change that occurred, which also included a seismic change in the economic landscape of the sport.

I think Wenger was the right guy to take us through all the pain. But it is clearly evident to me that as time has moved on and we now have the funds to compete, that he is not the right man for now. He hasn't the tactical nous to make the best of what he has nor is he using the resources we have as a club now to anything like it's full potential.

That said. Wenger has been the most important and influential person at the club in my lifetime, and his legacy should be one that is felt for many years after he is gone.

:gp:

Best post on this thread tbh.

[Power n Glory]

So wait a minute…..without the stadium move, we’d have dropped out of the Top 4? :unsure: Which teams were good enough from 2006 onwards to take our spot and push us down to 5th?

[Dein-machine]

So wait a minute…..without the stadium move, we’d have dropped out of the Top 4? :unsure: Which teams were good enough from 2006 onwards to take our spot and push us down to 5th?

i imagine you will get your answer this year

[WMUG]

So wait a minute…..without the stadium move, we’d have dropped out of the Top 4? :unsure: Which teams were good enough from 2006 onwards to take our spot and push us down to 5th?

Spurs, mostly. They were very nearly good enough to do it with the move, let alone without.

Everton have also been fairly close, City might've done it when the effects of their doping started presenting themselves. There have been teams that have been snapping at our ankles, it's not like that's controversial. Nobody knows how big an effect the stadium move had, but it can't have hurt.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

So wait a minute…..without the stadium move, we’d have dropped out of the Top 4? :unsure: Which teams were good enough from 2006 onwards to take our spot and push us down to 5th?

Maybe not in the immediate years there after but you certainly would have seen it's impact around about now, especially with the emergence of the two oil giants who have basically sown up two spots between themselves.

No new stadium means no Sanchez & Ozil and lower wage bill with less established players right now. Also we certainly wouldn't be in the position we're in right now, where we have a massive opportunity and platform to push for major honours with a few minor tweaks in right now.

At the moment we're at the same level as Chelsea/Man City/Man Utd (it's only one year) as the top clubs in the league. Without the new stadium we're be in the tier just below right now with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton who as Steve French points out, only make the odd CL appearance and don't have the same consistency that we do.

The stadium move will be imperative to any future success at the club.

[LDG]

So wait a minute…..without the stadium move, we’d have dropped out of the Top 4? :unsure: Which teams were good enough from 2006 onwards to take our spot and push us down to 5th?

That's pretty difficult to say, even though I think it's true. Why on earth would Liverpool and Spurs be trying to do the same if there wasn't a huge need to do so?

What someone needs to do is substitute the income received since the stadium move, for an estimate of what we would have received from Highbury over the same period.

Then you would see a massive loss given current wages, and player purchases. I.e. We would have had shitter quality players, and be relying even more on Wenger's ability to buy cheap and get results. See Fabregas, Nasri, Adebayor etc....these were the cheapo guys who kept us there....now we're buying Ozils and Sanchez to (try and) compete....we wouldn't be able to do that if we were still at Highbury.

Of course, when the move was conceived as a way of putting us on a par with Utd...it wasn't anticipated that a load of criminals would come in and make it impossible to compete (on a monetary front) under your own steam. Luckily we "almost" can, but for on the pitch inadequacies....which is really why it's time for Wenger to go, as eloquently put by Gary a few posts back.

The MASSIVE difference, is going to be whether a Rogers or a Pochettino(sp) can do the same job Wenger did in keeping us relatively competitive....assuming they have the same financial constraints we did when building our gaff.

But it's different times now. Because those two seem to have backers who will front the money. So maybe they won't have to do it the hard way.

[Bumble]

I think had we not moved, Wenger wouldn't have taken on the youngsters approach as he wouldn't have had the excuse of hiding behind lack of money for doing it.

Perhaps they would have kept the more experienced players had we stayed at Highbury and therefore kept some of the winners instead of dismantling everything.

I do think ultimately the move was necessary as like people have said, other clubs wouldn't be doing it if it was a total disaster. It has given us buying power but we still have an imbalanced squad and that the manager and boards problem and not the stadium.

[Niall_Quinn]

But then why can Athletico have success without big stadium revenue.
Answer is good tactical manager who is able to get the most from his players & by having quality players in every position - all this with a stadium that brings in 25% of what the Emirates does for us.

They won't sustain it. Anomalies can always happen and absolutely a good manager and a good squad can buck the odds every once in a while. But you won't see the second tier clubs at the top season after season. Same with Liverpool, they could have won it last year. But they could also end up outside the top 4 this year having lost a key player who wanted to go to a "bigger club". Hanging on to your players, attracting top talent, being able to afford the runaway inflation wages, attracting bigger sponsors, building the fan base, expanding the merchandising operations, getting a bigger share of the media pie, and so on. Money attracts money and is a decisive factor in achieving sustained "success". It's shitty it works that way but it does. Seems to me Southampton have a great set up and a more than competent manager but money is their glass ceiling. Next summer the big clubs will be back to take their pick again and it's back to the drawing board for them, albeit a very competent drawing board. With a more tactically astute manager we might have won the title last season, but we'd have been punching above our weight had we done so. Slowly we are adding to that weight and unfortunately it's all based on cash. Football is more business and finance than sport these days, the football is almost the by-product. It's what happens when something has mass appeal and the money men find an angle. We either play the game or we accept second tier status for the long term.

[Dein-machine]

On purely football issues, the Emirates move has allowed more Arsenal fans to watch their team & reduce the 8 year waiting list that we had - albeit to 7 years!!. On another footballing issue is has meant us becoming virtually non-competitive in our own league & in Europe which wasn't the case in Highbury's later years.
On financial issues the move is obviously a success but by how much. If you look at the table NQ posted above, I would imagine we could expect the same level as match day income as Chelsea had we stayed at Highbury but commercially we are way behind. The Emirates figure suggest we are £22 mill better off than Chelsea on match day revenue over the year, our commercial teams have been weak & ofcourse the TV money would be better if we were more successful in Europe. So the additional £20 mill + revenue from the Emirates could be found with better commercial deals & a more competitive team. Bearing in mind we would go into a game with Athletico Madrid as underdogs but with total revenue well over double of theirs, it would suggest that reasons for our lack of success & competitiveness in the last decade cannot be blamed on stadium repayments but by what is happening on & off the pitch. Commercial Director & Wenger OUT.

[Power n Glory]

I think had we not moved, Wenger wouldn't have taken on the youngsters approach as he wouldn't have had the excuse of hiding behind lack of money for doing it.

Perhaps they would have kept the more experienced players had we stayed at Highbury and therefore kept some of the winners instead of dismantling everything.

I do think ultimately the move was necessary as like people have said, other clubs wouldn't be doing it if it was a total disaster. It has given us buying power but we still have an imbalanced squad and that the manager and boards problem and not the stadium.

:gp:

I was just about to say something similar. The stadium move altered our transfer policy and we went for youth and development over international experience. We were title contenders and it's hard to imagine us dropping out of the Top 4 in a few season to the likes of Spurs and Everton.

The stadium move was necessary for this current period. When you make such moves, your projecting change over a 10-20 year period. Not a few seasons. We'll see the benefits of the move now, we were hamstrung when we first moved into the stadium and made bad sponsorship deals just to fund the project.

[Dein-machine]

They won't sustain it. Anomalies can always happen and absolutely a good manager and a good squad can buck the odds every once in a while. But you won't see the second tier clubs at the top season after season. Same with Liverpool, they could have won it last year. But they could also end up outside the top 4 this year having lost a key player who wanted to go to a "bigger club". Hanging on to your players, attracting top talent, being able to afford the runaway inflation wages, attracting bigger sponsors, building the fan base, expanding the merchandising operations, getting a bigger share of the media pie, and so on. Money attracts money and is a decisive factor in achieving sustained "success". It's shitty it works that way but it does. Seems to me Southampton have a great set up and a more than competent manager but money is their glass ceiling. Next summer the big clubs will be back to take their pick again and it's back to the drawing board for them, albeit a very competent drawing board. With a more tactically astute manager we might have won the title last season, but we'd have been punching above our weight had we done so. Slowly we are adding to that weight and unfortunately it's all based on cash. Football is more business and finance than sport these days, the football is almost the by-product. It's what happens when something has mass appeal and the money men find an angle. We either play the game or we accept second tier status for the long term.

Don't agree NQ - anomalies are an easy excuse when trying to fight this argument but there is nothing to suggest Athletico won't be a top European team for the next few years. You would probably have said Dortmund were an anomaly a few years ago but they have stayed strong & with stadium revenue less than half of ours are fielding a weakened team that is able to shit all over us. Money is one thing but managers like Klopp & Simeone are modern managers able to get the best out of players that don't cost the earth & are tactically astute.

[Power n Glory]

Spurs, mostly. They were very nearly good enough to do it with the move, let alone without.

Everton have also been fairly close, City might've done it when the effects of their doping started presenting themselves. There have been teams that have been snapping at our ankles, it's not like that's controversial. Nobody knows how big an effect the stadium move had, but it can't have hurt.

Spurs and Everton! Be serious! :lol:

As said in a previous post, they came close because we hamstrung ourselves with the stadium move. David Moyes, Harry, Jol, Ramos, AKB...do you think those guys are anywhere close to Wenger's level? I don't rate Wenger as the best tactician but there is no way those guys should be beating him over a season.

[Power n Glory]

Maybe not in the immediate years there after but you certainly would have seen it's impact around about now, especially with the emergence of the two oil giants who have basically sown up two spots between themselves.

No new stadium means no Sanchez & Ozil and lower wage bill with less established players right now. Also we certainly wouldn't be in the position we're in right now, where we have a massive opportunity and platform to push for major honours with a few minor tweaks in right now.

At the moment we're at the same level as Chelsea/Man City/Man Utd (it's only one year) as the top clubs in the league. Without the new stadium we're be in the tier just below right now with Spurs, Liverpool and Everton who as Steve French points out, only make the odd CL appearance and don't have the same consistency that we do.

The stadium move will be imperative to any future success at the club.

:gp: Future success.

If we had fell off in 2006, something must have gone seriously wrong at Arsenal.

[Niall_Quinn]

We seem to be talking about two different things. I'm talking about pushing on to compete at the top level on a consistent basis, like your chavs and gypos. The stadium move is an essential ingredient for that to be even moderately realistic. As for the other argument, I doubt anyone disagrees we could do better than Wenger in terms of tactics, selection and the general approach to on-field activities. But that's not the only aspect to consider at Arsenal. Wenger has been involved in much more than that and you look around and wonder could any other manager have transformed the club in such a way as we have witnessed since his arrival? Whether it's right or wrong for Wenger to have had such a huge role is immaterial after the fact. For me his job is all but done now and he's leaving the club in excellent shape for the next guy. Some are saying our ambitions are limited, I think it's the opposite. We're up against industrial scale dopers and we're still turning a modest profit year on year while hanging on to their coattails. Now the commercial teams need to get to work (which they have been doing) and the board has to start considering Wenger's replacement, which is surely on the cards? They won't leave it until the day Wenger leaves to start hunting around. I bet that search is already in progress. We'll get what we want in the end, a top class manager with a much more limited role backed by a financial powerhouse of a club. If that's the plan then it suits me.

[Power n Glory]

That's pretty difficult to say, even though I think it's true. Why on earth would Liverpool and Spurs be trying to do the same if there wasn't a huge need to do so?

What someone needs to do is substitute the income received since the stadium move, for an estimate of what we would have received from Highbury over the same period.

Then you would see a massive loss given current wages, and player purchases. I.e. We would have had shitter quality players, and be relying even more on Wenger's ability to buy cheap and get results. See Fabregas, Nasri, Adebayor etc....these were the cheapo guys who kept us there....now we're buying Ozils and Sanchez to (try and) compete....we wouldn't be able to do that if we were still at Highbury.

Of course, when the move was conceived as a way of putting us on a par with Utd...it wasn't anticipated that a load of criminals would come in and make it impossible to compete (on a monetary front) under your own steam. Luckily we "almost" can, but for on the pitch inadequacies....which is really why it's time for Wenger to go, as eloquently put by Gary a few posts back.

The MASSIVE difference, is going to be whether a Rogers or a Pochettino(sp) can do the same job Wenger did in keeping us relatively competitive....assuming they have the same financial constraints we did when building our gaff.

But it's different times now. Because those two seem to have backers who will front the money. So maybe they won't have to do it the hard way.

We had poorer quality players as result of moving to the Emirates. We weren’t replacing the Invincibles and opted for cheaper, younger alternatives in hope that they’d get better. I say cheaper alternatives, but that wasn’t true because we’d pay these guys really well. They earned first team money. The wages didn’t go down, they went up even though the quality went down. The stadium move has put us in a good position for this era but then again, it’s the new sponsorship money that’s seen a complete shift in our finances. Ozil and Sanchez wouldn’t have happened without it.

[Dein-machine]

We had poorer quality players as result of moving to the Emirates. We weren’t replacing the Invincibles and opted for cheaper, younger alternatives in hope that they’d get better. I say cheaper alternatives, but that wasn’t true because we’d pay these guys really well. They earned first team money. The wages didn’t go down, they went up even though the quality went down. The stadium move has put us in a good position for this era but then again, it’s the new sponsorship money that’s seen a complete shift in our finances. Ozil and Sanchez wouldn’t have happened without it.

Totally agree - sponsorship revenue is the reason we are able to spend big. The additional match day revenue comparing Highbury to Emirates is not what some people on here think it is.

[LDG]

We had poorer quality players as result of moving to the Emirates. We weren’t replacing the Invincibles and opted for cheaper, younger alternatives in hope that they’d get better. I say cheaper alternatives, but that wasn’t true because we’d pay these guys really well. They earned first team money. The wages didn’t go down, they went up even though the quality went down. The stadium move has put us in a good position for this era but then again, it’s the new sponsorship money that’s seen a complete shift in our finances. Ozil and Sanchez wouldn’t have happened without it.

It's all relative though. We've done what we can financially as the game has moved on. That has been enough to keep us in the top four. And without the stadium, the inflation in the market wouldn't allowed us to spend the top wages you state. The players that earned first team money in the end, were the ones who made the first team....they may not have been the required quality, but they must have been to keep us top four ;)

Ozil and Sanchez may well have happened outside of a doped market, with lower sponsorship revenue.

We may have gotten away with a couple more years at Highbury, but the point is this. We spend within our means, from our own profits, and still compete. Without the stadium, we wouldn't be able to, AND maintain competetive. Full stop.

[LDG]

Totally agree - sponsorship revenue is the reason we are able to spend big. The additional match day revenue comparing Highbury to Emirates is not what some people on here think it is.

And what sets your level of sponsorship??

Coming mid-table, or making the ECL? Go figure.

[Dein-machine]

We seem to be talking about two different things. I'm talking about pushing on to compete at the top level on a consistent basis, like your chavs and gypos. The stadium move is an essential ingredient for that to be even moderately realistic. As for the other argument, I doubt anyone disagrees we could do better than Wenger in terms of tactics, selection and the general approach to on-field activities. But that's not the only aspect to consider at Arsenal. Wenger has been involved in much more than that and you look around and wonder could any other manager have transformed the club in such a way as we have witnessed since his arrival? Whether it's right or wrong for Wenger to have had such a huge role is immaterial after the fact. For me his job is all but done now and he's leaving the club in excellent shape for the next guy. Some are saying our ambitions are limited, I think it's the opposite. We're up against industrial scale dopers and we're still turning a modest profit year on year while hanging on to their coattails. Now the commercial teams need to get to work (which they have been doing) and the board has to start considering Wenger's replacement, which is surely on the cards? They won't leave it until the day Wenger leaves to start hunting around. I bet that search is already in progress. We'll get what we want in the end, a top class manager with a much more limited role backed by a financial powerhouse of a club. If that's the plan then it suits me.

Competing financially with the Chavs & Gypos is not going to happen but to give ourselves a chance we have to address our squad in a similar way. Both of these teams have quality players in all positions with strong benches. This is NOT impossible for us to do.
We may not be able to have as many £50 mill players in the squad but we can make sure that when we buy, we buy quality that may cost more that Wenger is prepared to give. Chelsea for example buy Felipe from Athletico whilst already having Azperlaceuta. Would we not have been better to buy a Felipe type left back instead of Monreal for an additional £10 mill. If we are to compete, the answer has to be yes. Wenger doesn't see it this way & therefore all the money in the world will not allow us to bridge the gap.
Both Chelsea & Man City would not have Arteta or Flamini anywhere near their teams, nor would they have the likes of Podolski, Rosicky or Sonogo on the bench. They move their deadwood out as soon as they realise they have or need better, Negrado being an example from City whereas Wenger has too many squad players that would struggle to get a game for Stoke. If we are bringing on Monreal at CB, Flamini or Podolski in Midfield, Sonogo in attack, we are not replacing like for like. This has to change. It will cost decent money, but we have it & we are not talking about buying 5 Gareth Bale's.

[Dein-machine]

And what sets your level of sponsorship??

Coming mid-table, or making the ECL? Go figure.

Who's been talking about mid table? - we've had C.L. football for 17 years but our sponsorship levels were shit compared to other mediocre European teams.
Sponsors want to be involved with successful & ambitious brands - success & ambition are not two words you would link to Wenger these days.

[Power n Glory]

It's all relative though. We've done what we can financially as the game has moved on. That has been enough to keep us in the top four. And without the stadium, the inflation in the market wouldn't allowed us to spend the top wages you state. The players that earned first team money in the end, were the ones who made the first team....they may not have been the required quality, but they must have been to keep us top four ;)

Ozil and Sanchez may well have happened outside of a doped market, with lower sponsorship revenue.

We may have gotten away with a couple more years at Highbury, but the point is this. We spend within our means, from our own profits, and still compete. Without the stadium, we wouldn't be able to, AND maintain competetive. Full stop.

No, go back a step. I didn’t say they weren’t the required quality to keep us Top 4. They weren’t the required quality to win us silverware and that was my original comparison. We didn’t replace the Invincibles and went from Henry, Pires and Vieria to Ade, Hleb and Denilson/Cesc. It was a drop in quality but they earned around the same amount the Invincibles did and maybe more. The stadium boosted our revenue but it’s not as if we used that boost in revenue to upgrade or even maintain the standard we had back in Highbury.

I’m not saying the move wasn’t necessary, just questioning why people think we’d have dropped out of the Top 4. I think we’d have survived in Highbury more than a couple of seasons because there was nobody below us to worry about. Spurs, Everton…those teams weren’t even close to us without the stadium so why do you think we needed a significant boost in finances to compete for Top 4? That’s what I don’t get. There hasn’t been a team in the league to be consistently on our heels to challenge us for that spot. Not one. This season and last are the only two seasons where I think we could be in serious trouble because we now have 5 top teams with a history and record of finishing in the Top 5. But, we’re in a very good position because of the sponsors and stadium. It’s almost been 10 years since the move, so it’s been a strategic and case of long term planning. It wasn’t something we needed immediately or we’d have been blown out the water by teams like Spurs and Everton.

If those smaller teams manage to build a bigger and better stadium than ours, do you think they’ll immediately catapult to our level?

[LDG]

Who's been talking about mid table? - we've had C.L. football for 17 years but our sponsorship levels were shit compared to other mediocre European teams.
Sponsors want to be involved with successful & ambitious brands - success & ambition are not two words you would link to Wenger these days.

You're talking at cross purposes then.

We wouldn't be able to afford Ozil etc without the huge sponsorship deal we have.

Yet, sponsors want to be involved with successful clubs. Isn't our relative success a part of that. And isn't our stature in the game, stadium/fanbase etc included part of achieving that?

In terms of previous deals, they were lower than perhaps we could have got, but we also had a lot of them built in with the stadium rebuild, hence why they were lower.

I don't get some of you lot. We all get that Wenger is at the end of the road, because he isn't tactically astute, and makes some really stupid decisions / gambles with the squad. But people want to bash anything and everything regardless!!

The stadium was a good and very necessary move. Even Dein would agree now, I'm sure.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Debunked by whom though, the rose tinted glasses brigade. We are in a fight every year for 4th with teams who have 30,000+ seater stadiums & less financial clout than us, so I fail to see how anyone can suggest we couldn't be doing the same if we'd stayed at Highbury.

Excellent post tbh

[LDG]

No, go back a step. I didn’t say they weren’t the required quality to keep us Top 4. They weren’t the required quality to win us silverware and that was my original comparison. We didn’t replace the Invincibles and went from Henry, Pires and Vieria to Ade, Hleb and Denilson/Cesc. It was a drop in quality but they earned around the same amount the Invincibles did and maybe more. The stadium boosted our revenue but it’s not as if we used that boost in revenue to upgrade or even maintain the standard we had back in Highbury.

I’m not saying the move wasn’t necessary, just questioning why people think we’d have dropped out of the Top 4. I think we’d have survived in Highbury more than a couple of seasons because there was nobody below us to worry about. Spurs, Everton…those teams weren’t even close to us without the stadium so why do you think we needed a significant boost in finances to compete for Top 4? That’s what I don’t get. There hasn’t been a team in the league to be consistently on our heels to challenge us for that spot. Not one. This season and last are the only two seasons where I think we could be in serious trouble because we now have 5 top teams with a history and record of finishing in the Top 5. But, we’re in a very good position because of the sponsors and stadium. It’s almost been 10 years since the move, so it’s been a strategic and case of long term planning. It wasn’t something we needed immediately or we’d have been blown out the water by teams like Spurs and Everton.

If those smaller teams manage to build a bigger and better stadium than ours, do you think they’ll immediately catapult to our level?

Silverware....well, I think we should have won a cup or two with those players. We've been over that before, and it's the same reason we're saying Wenger should go now. Because of gambling with squad, not preparing a team properly etc.

But even then. Even when we had a squad that should have won something. EVEN THEN. We did it on a budget, because we were tied into various deals, we didn't have oil money, we were funding the stadium and other build projects. What I'm saying, is that I don't believe there were or are many other managers capable of keeping us where we were, and on that budget. That's the argument.

And as we agree the move was necessary, you have to give credit to those involved who made it possible, without dropping out of the top four. There is a good argument that had we put David Moyes in charge of that period of time, on the budget Wenger had, we WOULD have dropped way out of the top four. He managed it with Utd's millions.

[Dein-machine]

[QUOTE=LDG;423918]You're talking at cross purposes then.

We wouldn't be able to afford Ozil etc without the huge sponsorship deal we have.

Yet, sponsors want to be involved with successful clubs. Isn't our relative success a part of that. And isn't our stature in the game, stadium/fanbase etc included part of achieving that?

In terms of previous deals, they were lower than perhaps we could have got, but we also had a lot of them built in with the stadium rebuild, hence why they were lower.

I don't get some of you lot. We all get that Wenger is at the end of the road, because he isn't tactically astute, and makes some really stupid decisions / gambles with the squad. But people want to bash anything and everything regardless!!

The stadium was a good and very necessary move. Even Dein would agree now, I'm sure.[/QUOTE

Your the one talking at cross purposes - The debate here is not whether or not its been good to move to the Emirates, I doubt anyone on here doubts that. The debate for me is whether ( as per the thread title ) or not the stadium move can be used as an excuse in the Wenger Out argument. I don't understand those on here who are trying to suggest that staying at Highbury would have automatically meant us not competing for 4th place - the fact that Liverpool, Everton & Spurs regularly run us close & haven't changed stadium would suggest not, especially as we would have more money to spend on players over the past decade without stadium repayments. Therefore even with a fantastic new stadium & extra revenue we are unable to make any real impact at the top level.
Yes we buy Ozil, but would the money have been better spent elsewhere, what did he do for the team last year as opposed to what a top striker would have done or what a top DM would have meant to us defensively. We can spend the next ten years breaking our transfer record in similar players but unless the squad has the quality of our opposition in EVERY position then we wont compete

[LDG]

The debate for me is whether ( as per the thread title ) or not the stadium move can be used as an excuse in the Wenger Out argument. I don't understand those on here who are trying to suggest that staying at Highbury would have automatically meant us not competing for 4th place

Eh??

The whole thing is about Wenger right?

Yes, of course he would have kept us top four without the stadium, and without the financial constraints of the stadium move. Of course he would. That's the point.

I would then say (like you agree) the stadium move was necessary. So you have to factor that in.

You then have to say, how many other managers would have been able to keep us there, on the budget he had.

Indulge me:

If Wenger had been the Spurs manager during the period we're talking, and that ragtag succession of failed spud managers (who had plenty of money to spend) were in charge of our club during that time. Who would have finished top four?

Isn't that the argument really?

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Totally agree - sponsorship revenue is the reason we are able to spend big. The additional match day revenue comparing Highbury to Emirates is not what some people on here think it is.

And what do you think influences sponsorship revenue?

Do you think if we were playing in some shitty run down 35 k old stadium that Puma would have been prepared to offer us the biggest kit deal in the world at the time (before the Mancs blew us out of the water with Addidas)?

Having a brand new modern 60 K stadium in London and filling it out week in, week out cements our status as one of the biggest clubs in Europe, essentially improving our prestige and making us more attractive for sponsors to associate with. Would Real Madrid be as big as they are if they played in a small 30 K stadium? No they wouldn't. As has been pointed out already, it's not surprising that clubs who are right below us now like Liverpool and Spurs are desperately trying to modernise their stadiums in order to replicate our journey.

Now, it's been well reported why our sponsorship deals prior to last year were poor - pathetic long term contracts that the board were tied into in order to raise cash up front for the stadium. It was poor business foresight and in hindsight an awful decision as we lost out on millions in potential sponsorship deals when the popularity of the PL boomed around the world. However since we've been able to renegotiate them it's not surprising to see them rocket up to some of the largest in the world and only behind the four really elite clubs in the world (Man Utd, Bayern, Madrid and Barca). Not a bad position to be in tbh.

[Power n Glory]

Silverware....well, I think we should have won a cup or two with those players. We've been over that before, and it's the same reason we're saying Wenger should go now. Because of gambling with squad, not preparing a team properly etc.

But even then. Even when we had a squad that should have won something. EVEN THEN. We did it on a budget, because we were tied into various deals, we didn't have oil money, we were funding the stadium and other build projects. What I'm saying, is that I don't believe there were or are many other managers capable of keeping us where we were, and on that budget. That's the argument.

And as we agree the move was necessary, you have to give credit to those involved who made it possible, without dropping out of the top four. There is a good argument that had we put David Moyes in charge of that period of time, on the budget Wenger had, we WOULD have dropped way out of the top four. He managed it with Utd's millions.

Yes, true, we should have at least won a cup with some of those teams, but you get my point. We weren’t buying the same quality as what we once were when at Highbury even though the revenue went up. But this is where the language used gets confusing.

Why would we fall out of the Top 4 if we had a financial advantage over the teams below us? We were working on a budget and financial constraints compared to the teams above us but not below. So why the argument that the move to the Emirates was desperately needed to stay in the Top 4?

[Dein-machine]

Eh??

The whole thing is about Wenger right?

Yes, of course he would have kept us top four without the stadium, and without the financial constraints of the stadium move. Of course he would. That's the point.

I would then say (like you agree) the stadium move was necessary. So you have to factor that in.

You then have to say, how many other managers would have been able to keep us there, on the budget he had.

Indulge me:

If Wenger had been the Spurs manager during the period we're talking, and that ragtag succession of failed spud managers (who had plenty of money to spend) were in charge of our club during that time. Who would have finished top four?

Isn't that the argument really?

Wenger has consistently delivered C.L. football by finishing in the top 4. He has done this without the spending power of the Chavs or Gypos whilst still competing with a strong Utd side under Fergie. This is fact & can only be admired.
However, Wenger & Danny Fitz sold us the Emirates dream which funnily enough didn't mention a struggle for top 4 every year.
The stadium move hasn't cost us every year, it hasn't left a deficit - the extra revenue easily exceeds the stadium repayments so maybe even they didn't expect a fight for 4th every year.
But over a decade later, we have won the FA cup once , we have a team that doesn't compete in the EPL or the C.L. anymore, our football style hasn't progressed & due to the players we have it can't, we struggle to get 4th, we struggle to get out of C.L group stages ( this year a Demba Ba header away from even qualifying ), total lack of squad depth defensively, lack of quality in 3 main positions in our starting 11 & a team regularly beaten by the teams who have progressed.
The stadium was supposed to take us to another level, Wenger can just about guarantee us 4th although its getting tighter every year but the above should prove that to match our new shiny, modern stadium - we need a new shiny, modern manager.

I'm not sure about the Spurs C.L. question under Wenger. I can see what you are saying but I think if we had replaced Wenger with a Guardiola or a Klopp 5 years ago - I think we'd be regularly fighting with the top teams for the title which would probably have meant it was only United that Spurs could overtake. The Invincible team came at the right time for Wenger, before money spoilt the game, but it was a team that he has failed to recreate & I doubt he would have any more success at doing that at Spurs.

[Dein-machine]

And what do you think influences sponsorship revenue?

Do you think if we were playing in some shitty run down 35 k old stadium that Puma would have been prepared to offer us the biggest kit deal in the world at the time (before the Mancs blew us out of the water with Addidas)?

Having a brand new modern 60 K stadium in London and filling it out week in, week out cements our status as one of the biggest clubs in Europe, essentially improving our prestige and making us more attractive for sponsors to associate with. Would Real Madrid be as big as they are if they played in a small 30 K stadium? No they wouldn't. As has been pointed out already, it's not surprising that clubs who are right below us now like Liverpool and Spurs are desperately trying to modernise their stadiums in order to replicate our journey.

Now, it's been well reported why our sponsorship deals prior to last year were poor - pathetic long term contracts that the board were tied into in order to raise cash up front for the stadium. It was poor business foresight and in hindsight an awful decision as we lost out on millions in potential sponsorship deals when the popularity of the PL boomed around the world. However since we've been able to renegotiate them it's not surprising to see them rocket up to some of the largest in the world and only behind the four really elite clubs in the world (Man Utd, Bayern, Madrid and Barca). Not a bad position to be in tbh.

Not got a problem with anything you say apart from "our status as one of the biggest clubs in Europe" - exactly the words used to sell us the Emirates move.
Now you tell me as a football fan & not a share holder - Are we seen as a bigger European club now or 10 years ago. Galatasary get 80,000+ every week, doesn't mean there viewed at a top European team. The top teams are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, teams we used to compete with in C.L semi's & finals - Yes, when we were seen as one of Europe's biggest clubs.
We need to stop thinking that big stadiums & big sponsorship deals = success. The top teams spend that money on quality to guarantee that success, we have a manager who won't because of his principles.

[LDG]

Wenger has consistently delivered C.L. football by finishing in the top 4. He has done this without the spending power of the Chavs or Gypos whilst still competing with a strong Utd side under Fergie. This is fact & can only be admired.
However, Wenger & Danny Fitz sold us the Emirates dream which funnily enough didn't mention a struggle for top 4 every year.
The stadium move hasn't cost us every year, it hasn't left a deficit - the extra revenue easily exceeds the stadium repayments so maybe even they didn't expect a fight for 4th every year.
But over a decade later, we have won the FA cup once , we have a team that doesn't compete in the EPL or the C.L. anymore, our football style hasn't progressed & due to the players we have it can't, we struggle to get 4th, we struggle to get out of C.L group stages ( this year a Demba Ba header away from even qualifying ), total lack of squad depth defensively, lack of quality in 3 main positions in our starting 11 & a team regularly beaten by the teams who have progressed.
The stadium was supposed to take us to another level, Wenger can just about guarantee us 4th although its getting tighter every year but the above should prove that to match our new shiny, modern stadium - we need a new shiny, modern manager.

I'm not sure about the Spurs C.L. question under Wenger. I can see what you are saying but I think if we had replaced Wenger with a Guardiola or a Klopp 5 years ago - I think we'd be regularly fighting with the top teams for the title which would probably have meant it was only United that Spurs could overtake. The Invincible team came at the right time for Wenger, before money spoilt the game, but it was a team that he has failed to recreate & I doubt he would have any more success at doing that at Spurs.

Well, yes.

So we're all singing from the same hymn sheet then.

Wenger and co. should be admired for consistently delivering top four on a budget.

Wenger doesn't have what it takes to take it further, because of his tactical limitations, his gambling with the squad, and persistence with failed players/methods/style.

I don't see anyone who is arguing differently.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Not got a problem with anything you say apart from "our status as one of the biggest clubs in Europe" - exactly the words used to sell us the Emirates move.
Now you tell me as a football fan & not a share holder - Are we seen as a bigger European club now or 10 years ago. Galatasary get 80,000+ every week, doesn't mean there viewed at a top European team. The top teams are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, teams we used to compete with in C.L semi's & finals - Yes, when we were seen as one of Europe's biggest clubs.
We need to stop thinking that big stadiums & big sponsorship deals = success. The top teams spend that money on quality to guarantee that success, we have a manager who won't because of his principles.

Post of the year tbh

[LDG]

Yes, true, we should have at least won a cup with some of those teams, but you get my point. We weren’t buying the same quality as what we once were when at Highbury even though the revenue went up. But this is where the language used gets confusing.

Why would we fall out of the Top 4 if we had a financial advantage over the teams below us? We were working on a budget and financial constraints compared to the teams above us but not below. So why the argument that the move to the Emirates was desperately needed to stay in the Top 4?

It wasn't needed to keep us in the top four. It was needed to compete with the best in terms of revenue. Which is what they said.

As it conspired, that didn't matter once we started to move and build, because we were handicapping ourselves unwittingly due to the financial doping that then ensued! You're getting the timeline of events mixed up.

We have done well to stay top four when all is said and done, because football changed. We agreed what seemed sensible deals at the time, but which were soon dwarfed by the change in the way football is financed.

Why would we fall out of the top four? Well, you look sensibly at what the teams below us were spending at those time, and come back and tell me. 100's of millions of quid have been spent by Liverpool, Spuds, Newcastle and many more, who spent much more than us. So what is the difference. Why did we manage to stay top four, without that spending power (debt led or not)??

[Dein-machine]

Well, yes.

So we're all singing from the same hymn sheet then.

Wenger and co. should be admired for consistently delivering top four on a budget.

Wenger doesn't have what it takes to take it further, because of his tactical limitations, his gambling with the squad, and persistence with failed players/methods/style.

I don't see anyone who is arguing differently.

Well then I don't see why were arguing - the thread is Wenger YES or NO - we're both saying NO - YES!

[Power n Glory]

It wasn't needed to keep us in the top four. It was needed to compete with the best in terms of revenue. Which is what they said.

As it conspired, that didn't matter once we started to move and build, because we were handicapping ourselves unwittingly due to the financial doping that then ensued! You're getting the timeline of events mixed up.

We have done well to stay top four when all is said and done, because football changed. We agreed what seemed sensible deals at the time, but which were soon dwarfed by the change in the way football is financed.

Why would we fall out of the top four? Well, you look sensibly at what the teams below us were spending at those time, and come back and tell me. 100's of millions of quid have been spent by Liverpool, Spuds, Newcastle and many more, who spent much more than us. So what is the difference. Why did we manage to stay top four, without that spending power (debt led or not)??

Those teams weren't spending that much per season and couldn't sustain a challenge for the Top 4 consistently. What they blew in fees, they couldn't afford in wages like we could. Also, we sat on heap of cash for a long and I've always maintained that instead of spreading £20m-£40m across 3 to 5 cheap and young players, we should have been doing what we were doing now. Buying one megastar and then looking for cheap deals for cover positions.

We were title contenders before the Emirates. If we hadn't broken up our title winning squad so quickly, I seriously doubt those teams would have been able to come near us. We went undefeated in the league when Abromovich first arrived and gave Ranieri bought Crespo, Veron, Duff and co. We only bought Lehman in the Summer. One season of a big splash from those teams lower than us wouldn't have been enough to top us.

[LDG]

Those teams weren't spending that much per season and couldn't sustain a challenge for the Top 4 consistently. What they blew in fees, they couldn't afford in wages like we could. Also, we sat on heap of cash for a long and I've always maintained that instead of spreading £20m-£40m across 3 to 5 cheap and young players, we should have been doing what we were doing now. Buying one megastar and then looking for cheap deals for cover positions.

We were title contenders before the Emirates. If we hadn't broken up our title winning squad so quickly, I seriously doubt those teams would have been able to come near us. We went undefeated in the league when Abromovich first arrived and gave Ranieri bought Crespo, Veron, Duff and co. We only bought Lehman in the Summer. One season of a big splash from those teams lower than us wouldn't have been enough to top us.

So can you just put into one paragraph what you are saying. As you're going all over the place at the moment.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

Not got a problem with anything you say apart from "our status as one of the biggest clubs in Europe" - exactly the words used to sell us the Emirates move.
Now you tell me as a football fan & not a share holder - Are we seen as a bigger European club now or 10 years ago. Galatasary get 80,000+ every week, doesn't mean there viewed at a top European team. The top teams are Real Madrid, Barcelona, Bayern Munich, teams we used to compete with in C.L semi's & finals - Yes, when we were seen as one of Europe's biggest clubs.
We need to stop thinking that big stadiums & big sponsorship deals = success. The top teams spend that money on quality to guarantee that success, we have a manager who won't because of his principles.

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you're saying either. I was more specifically replying to both your and PNG's point about sponsorship being the driver of the recent transfer splurge and not the stadium when in fact it was the stadium that allowed the massive sponsorship deals to be gained. They're inextricably linked.

As for your other point, I would say we're probably at a similar level. We weren't exactly pulling many trees up in Europe in the early Wenger years either I remind you. Whilst our reputation has definitely taken a hit due to a lack of recent domestic success, our consistency in Europe as well as the increase in brand reputation predominately driven by the explosion of popularity of the PL around the world has reflected favourably on us. Obviously the latter is no substitute for real trophies, but again it's not either one or the other - increasing our sponsorship and matchday revenue will increase the chance of us winning silverware.

[Power n Glory]

So can you just put into one paragraph what you are saying. As you're going all over the place at the moment.

In short, you're talking shit, mate! :lol:

[LDG]

In short, you're talking shit, mate! :lol:


No, what is your argument? Come on, you know what your point of view is. I want to hear it concisely so that I can respond properly. And I do want to respond properly.

[Özim]

I'm not disagreeing with much of what you're saying either. I was more specifically replying to both your and PNG's point about sponsorship being the driver of the recent transfer splurge and not the stadium when in fact it was the stadium that allowed the massive sponsorship deals to be gained. They're inextricably linked.

I'm not so convinced, success is a bigger driver for sponsorship because companies want their names associated with successful brands that have big fan bases ideally.

Had we stayed at Highbury and maintained our level of success there we'd have been able to get even bigger deals perhaps.

[Power n Glory]

No, what is your argument? Come on, you know what your point of view is. I want to hear it concisely so that I can respond properly. And I do want to respond properly.

It’s very simple, the teams below us never stood a chance of overtaking us for the Top 4 spot and we didn’t need a move to the Emirates to stay above them.

[Özim]

We have done well to stay top four when all is said and done, because football changed. We agreed what seemed sensible deals at the time, but which were soon dwarfed by the change in the way football is financed.

IMO it could have been so much better if we'd a) not changed the style of play to this mini Barca style and b) planned better by having ready made replacements for the star players we sold off, sadly we sold them off and never seemed to have anyone in mind/place.

At Highbury we were a competitive team who were capable of challenging/winning the major trophies, Wenger sacrificed this in favour of his preferred style of football, because of this we regressed and now are only really a team capable of challenging for 4th place.

[Power n Glory]

I'm not so convinced, success is a bigger driver for sponsorship because companies want their names associated with successful brands that have big fan bases ideally.

Had we stayed at Highbury and maintained our level of success there we'd have been able to get even bigger deals perhaps.

Good point. If we're going to talk about teams below us spending more money than us, how was it possible when they don't have 60k+ stadium? Our tickets aren't cheap either!

[LDG]

It’s very simple, the teams below us never stood a chance of overtaking us for the Top 4 spot and we didn’t need a move to the Emirates to stay above them.

No we didn't. And I haven't disputed that. On the outset, the stadium move was to compete with the best. We could have stayed top four based on the climate then. But as I keep saying, the playing field changed, and in hindsight, we have done well to stay top four, as opposed to competing with Utd, Barca, Real, which was the original plan. Throw in Oil money, massive debt servicing, and huge wage inflation because of that, and you can see how our structured finances came under pressure, as we were tied into deals. If you can't see that, then you're deluded.

Can't you see, that once we were into the build, we were constrained financially?? Yes we still had money, but we couldn't go out and match the spending of the big boys first and foremost, and then as time wore on, it was clear that other clubs hovering below us, could actually (for a time) outspend us. That's why Liverpool bid 50m for Carrol. That's why Spurs under Redknapp were throwing the kitchen sink at ECL qualification.

Luckily, we had a manager that could steer us above that. And as we have already stated, if he wasn't so stubborn, such a gambler, we could have done even more!

If we were still at Highbury now, our revenue would be severely curtailed. We would be on a par with spending to a team like Everton. Same size stadium etc etc.

I don't understand why it is so hard to credit Wenger with what has been a significant part of our history.

As I keep saying. Why are Spurs and Liverpool trying to do the same, if it wasn't necessary. We have proved it was, so the whole Highbury thing is a moo cow point anyway.

[LDG]

IMO it could have been so much better if we'd a) not changed the style of play to this mini Barca style and b) planned better by having ready made replacements for the star players we sold off, sadly we sold them off and never seemed to have anyone in mind/place.



Yes, we're all saying that anyway. Almost everyone agrees that we have made the same mistakes over and over. Hence why Wenger should step aside as he's taken us as far as he can IMO. I don't think anyone is disputing that. So you don't need to bring it up.

Highbury has nothing to do with that.

[Özim]

Yes, we're all saying that anyway. Almost everyone agrees that we have made the same mistakes over and over. Hence why Wenger should step aside as he's taken us as far as he can IMO. I don't think anyone is disputing that. So you don't need to bring it up.

Highbury has nothing to do with that.

I brought it up because you said we did well to stay top 4.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

:popcorn:

[LDG]

Good point. If we're going to talk about teams below us spending more money than us, how was it possible when they don't have 60k+ stadium? Our tickets aren't cheap either!

Spurs are backed by a consortium of multi-millionnaires.

Liverpool are debt serviced to the hilt like Utd.

Chelsea have a Russian gangster.

City have crooked oil rapers.

Look what happened to Pompey....they still spent it, and nearly went bust.

Debt debt debt debt debt.

Fucksake. Do you not read the news??? that's why FFP was supposed to be imposed.

We spend within our means. And I don't think anyone disagrees that that is the wrong policy.

Whether we could have been a little less frugal is another debate. I think we all agree at certain points we could have pushed the boat out further.

[LDG]

I brought it up because you said we did well to stay top 4.

We did.

[LDG]

And I'm out.

Had enough of this shit.

[Özim]

We did.

If we could have done better with better planning and not changing our style then in reality, we didn't.

[Power n Glory]

And I'm out.

Had enough of this shit.

Yes, take a time out and breath!

[LDG]

Yes, take a time out and breath!

:lol:

No doubt you'd find a way to argue that humans don't need to breath to survive :sulk:

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

Well done Zimm

[Xhaka Can’t]

Everything LDG said was a simple concept to understand and was spot on.

[Power n Glory]

No we didn't. And I haven't disputed that. On the outset, the stadium move was to compete with the best. We could have stayed top four based on the climate then. But as I keep saying, the playing field changed, and in hindsight, we have done well to stay top four, as opposed to competing with Utd, Barca, Real, which was the original plan. Throw in Oil money, massive debt servicing, and huge wage inflation because of that, and you can see how our structured finances came under pressure, as we were tied into deals. If you can't see that, then you're deluded.

Can't you see, that once we were into the build, we were constrained financially?? Yes we still had money, but we couldn't go out and match the spending of the big boys first and foremost, and then as time wore on, it was clear that other clubs hovering below us, could actually (for a time) outspend us. That's why Liverpool bid 50m for Carrol. That's why Spurs under Redknapp were throwing the kitchen sink at ECL qualification.

Luckily, we had a manager that could steer us above that. And as we have already stated, if he wasn't so stubborn, such a gambler, we could have done even more!

If we were still at Highbury now, our revenue would be severely curtailed. We would be on a par with spending to a team like Everton. Same size stadium etc etc.

I don't understand why it is so hard to credit Wenger with what has been a significant part of our history.

As I keep saying. Why are Spurs and Liverpool trying to do the same, if it wasn't necessary. We have proved it was, so the whole Highbury thing is a moo cow point anyway.

The stadium move was a good thing but I have a problem with anyone saying we needed it to stay Top 4. Sounds like we’re on the same page with that one, so that can be skipped.

The teams below us catching up to us….I just don’t think they were ever good enough at the time. Wenger is a much better manager than the guys managing the lower teams and we had better players regardless of price tags. I guess you can call that credit. But if he’d ever finish below Harry, Moyes, AVB…I’d see that as more of an underachievement on our end. Like a great upset. Like Tyson losing to Buster Douglas and the story that follows is how off our game we were rather than our foes being that good and equal. This season and last season are different and now I think we’ll truly be tested for the Top 4 spot because there are 5 genuine teams that can really push for spots. Years before, there were only ever 3 consistent top teams or 4 at most.

Also, the financial constraints…honestly, I don’t think Wenger used his resources wisely. This season and last are an example of that.

[mastermind84]

But then why can Athletico have success without big stadium revenue.
Answer is good tactical manager who is able to get the most from his players & by having quality players in every position - all this with a stadium that brings in 25% of what the Emirates does for us.

Atletico does it by having players owned by agents come to their club. That club is technically insolvent.

[She Wore A Yellow Ribbon]

@wayneveysey
Sanchez dropped for disrupting Arsenal's passing style. Wenger trying to drill in to him need to release ball earlier. Article here: http://t.co/hD6lz294PR


So Wenger is trying to coach the good stuff out of Sanchez so that he conforms to the slow, tippy tappy passing crap that we've had to endure over the past few years? :haha:

[Letters]

Hmm. A goal.com article with no quotes in it.
Seems genuine enough.

[Niall_Quinn]

I place no stock at all in goal.com's take on things, highly likely they have pulled the story from thin air. However, Wenger himself has commented that Alexis has some issues with confidence. That makes no sense at all, his performances so far have oozed confidence and he's settled in very well. If I had to guess I'd agree with the previous poster, Wenger doesn't like his direct style and the fact he's prepared to take on players and risk losing the ball in the process. Which sort of equates to incompatibility with out bullshit tippy-tappy routine. I wish all eleven players were incompatible with that, but there you go.