Random Arsenal Shit (When it's not worth starting a thread)

[Özim]

Jardim would be an interesting one, if we had to pick a former player for me it would probably be Vieira, wouldn't touch Conte personally, he's really fallen apart this season.

Simeone would be my number 1 choice however, what's he's achieved at Athletico is amazing, he also clearly has an eye for a top player, we could use someone who would instill some discipline and perhaps bring some warriors into the team.

[HCZ]

Again one of the main gripes I have against Wenger now is that we play shit football, and as much as Atletico have performed brilliantly under Simeone they are not enjoyable to watch.

Plus I think Simeone is a bit like Wenger, In the sense that when in the ascendant as he is now, I think he’d turn down big clubs let alone us.

Either bring in Jardim or bring in an older guy with a younger guy like an Arteta or a Vieira as his assistant who either individual who could take over from in 2-3 years.

[Özim]

I think our football is part of it, it's no just the brand it's how one dimensional we are, how frustrating we are to watch and how we lack all the things a successful side need, hunger, desire and leadership.

Simeones' teams may not play the best football but they do have that work ethic which as a fan you have to appreciate, it's not champagne football of course, but yes whether he would consider Arsenal is a different story.

[HCZ]

For me the obligation of any manager is to get the right balance of entertainment and success

All sport is a form of entertainment. Atletico Madrid and any team managed by Mourinho are the Stefan Edberg, Boris Becker or Pete Sampras of football. Successful but dreadful to watch.

[Mac76]

For me the obligation of any manager is to get the right balance of entertainment and success

All sport is a form of entertainment. Atletico Madrid and any team managed by Mourinho are the Stefan Edberg, Boris Becker or Pete Sampras of football. Successful but dreadful to watch.

Whereas a team managed by Ferguson was the equivalent of Federer - better quality but completely spoilt by the fact he was a total c**t

[Cripps]

Arsenal announce pre-tax profit of £25.1m for six months ending 30 November 2017. Figure includes £58.4m profit on player sales. Turnover down from £191.1m to £167.7m as a result of club dropping into Europa League. January transfer window ins and outs not included.
Story here: https://t.co/vwae427ASW

:rose:

[Cripps]

#Arsenal's operating profits fall by more than 60 per cent after missing out on Champions League, reports @SamJDean
https://twitter.com/TeleFootball/status/968887603759108096

:rose:

[Goonermerree]

For me the obligation of any manager is to get the right balance of entertainment and success

All sport is a form of entertainment. Atletico Madrid and any team managed by Mourinho are the Stefan Edberg, Boris Becker or Pete Sampras of football. Successful but dreadful to watch.

Don't think Becker was boring, yes he had a big serve, but he used to dive all over court to get a ball back.

[Niall_Quinn]

Don't think Becker was boring, yes he had a big serve, but he used to dive all over court to get a ball back.

He was a horrible cunt, tbf.

[Globalgunner]

He was a horrible cunt, tbf.

He liked his ladies with chocolate in them. Top bloke. Bad businessman.

[Cripps]

@soca: Milan have been fantastic defensively under Gattuso. Very organised, have a good defensive shape to them. Best defensive form at Milan in years.

:rose:

[Cripps]

The Sun say the #Arsenal players held a 'stormy' crisis meeting without Arsene Wenger after their Carabao Cup final defeat against Manchester City.*Per Mertesacker called the inquest at London Colney.

The annual showdown meeting :lol:

[Marc Overmars]

Ah yes the "why are we so shit?" annual meeting.

[Özim]

Didn't we have this last season when Mertesacker came out and said something along the lines of we need to show everyone we're up for the fight. Then Bayern thrashed us 5-1 again.

[HCZ]

Another players meeting?

Won’t amount to anything without the mercurial presence of Theo Walcott the man of granite resolve

[Marc Overmars]

Didn't we have this last season when Mertesacker came out and said something along the lines of we need to show everyone we're up for the fight. Then Bayern thrashed us 5-1 again.

Yeah but this time I really think they're going to come out fighting. There's so much togetherness in this squad.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah but this time I really think they're going to come out fighting. There's so much togetherness in this squad.

It's definitely the culture here. We are very cultured. We have great spirit. We know there are more important things than winning. And we have all those things.

[Özim]

It's definitely the culture here. We are very cultured. We have great spirit. We know there are more important things than winning. And we have all those things.

Don't forget mental strength, we have oodles of that too, we show that every time we get hammered.

[Niall_Quinn]

Don't forget mental strength, we have oodles of that too, we show that every time we get hammered.

We shouldn't really focus on past games - none of them. Ever. It is the next game that is important. We must show spirit and bounce back.

[21_GOONER_SALUTE]

We shouldn't really focus on past games - none of them. Ever. It is the next game that is important. We must show spirit and bounce back.

:lol: it's funny 'cause it's true :lol:

[Letters]

Another players meeting?

Their summer holidays don't organise themselves :sulk:

[rodders]

Is tomorrows away defeat to Brighton still on?

[AFC Leveller]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5459817/Arsenal-stars-homeless-mum-sleeping-freezing-cold-CRATE.html

[Niall_Quinn]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5459817/Arsenal-stars-homeless-mum-sleeping-freezing-cold-CRATE.html

I assume the Daily Mail has left out a few key points that would give this story context.

[Goonermerree]

She could just go out and get a job.:shrug:

[Power n Glory]

I assume the Daily Mail has left out a few key points that would give this story context.

Of course. From what I've heard, she's nuts and has caused a lot of issues storming into training making demands and calling staff and managers. The fact that she's sold her story to the press speaks volumes.

[Özim]

She could just go out and get a job.:shrug:

Hard to get a job with no address to be fair.

[Özim]

Of course. From what I've heard, she's nuts and has caused a lot of issues storming into training making demands and calling staff and managers. The fact that she's sold her story to the press speaks volumes.

Who knows, it's not unusual for footballers to be self centred, self obsessed people either (not saying he is of course) and with Wenger coaching them it wouldn't surprise me, he pampers them so much that they all think they are superstars without every having achieved anything.

Either way, bit harsh to have your mum being homeless when you're loaded, but in fairness you can't judge unless you hear both sides of the story.

[Power n Glory]

Who knows, it's not unusual for footballers to be self centred, self obsessed people either (not saying he is of course) and with Wenger coaching them it wouldn't surprise me, he pampers them so much that they all think they are superstars without every having achieved anything.

Either way, bit harsh to have your mum being homeless when you're loaded, but in fairness you can't judge unless you hear both sides of the story.

It's also common that those with money are expected to take care of everyone that asks for something. The mum is pulling a publicity stunt. There must be other family members that can take her in before she's living homeless and has to go to the press.

[Niall_Quinn]

Could somebody please send out a few PMs to the players and ask if they fancy some training on Monday?

For some reason they have blocked me.

[HCZ]

I assume the Daily Mail has left out a few key points that would give this story context.

Ha that's the crazy bitch that came to the training ground and kicked off

He's probably disowned her because she pimped him out to nonces to pay for her crack habbit about ten years ago

[Letters]

http://newsthump.com/2018/03/05/celebrities-wear-ribbons-to-the-oscars-to-show-their-support-for-the-wengerout-movement/

:lol:

[Cripps]

Just five weeks after leaving #Arsenal, Mathieu Debuchy has scored two goals, lost no games, become cult hero at St Etienne, been nominated alongside Neymar for #Ligue1 player of month award, and got himself back in World Cup contention for France.

:lol: wenger :rose:

[Niall_Quinn]

Just five weeks after leaving #Arsenal, Mathieu Debuchy has scored two goals, lost no games, become cult hero at St Etienne, been nominated alongside Neymar for #Ligue1 player of month award, and got himself back in World Cup contention for France.

:lol: wenger :rose:

Same thing could happen for our current squad if we had somebody to manage them.

Wenger is STILL here. Almost 3PM and no sign of him leaving. It's beyond belief.

[Cripps]

:lol:

[Letters]

Same thing could happen for our current squad if we had somebody to manage them.

Wenger is STILL here. Almost 3PM and no sign of him leaving. It's beyond belief.

We should start taking bets whether Wenger leaves before that bloke does a poo.

[GP]

We should start taking bets whether Wenger leaves before that bloke does a poo.

How would you tell the difference haha lol lmao

[Master Splinter]

Wenger is STILL here. Almost 3PM and no sign of him leaving. It's beyond belief.

Press conference at 7.

[Goonermerree]

Same thing could happen for our current squad if we had somebody to manage them.

Wenger is STILL here. Almost 3PM and no sign of him leaving. It's beyond belief.
We might have to lose to Milan - twice - before he's gone.

[Goonermerree]

PADDY POWER have this morning announced they have paid out on Arsene Wenger to be the next Premier League boss sacked.

They must know something, either that no manager is going to be sacked for the next 18 months in the PL, or...

[Letters]

PADDY POWER have this morning announced they have paid out on Arsene Wenger to be the next Premier League boss sacked.

They must know something, either that no manager is going to be sacked for the next 18 years in the PL, or...
Fixed your typo.

[Cripps]

There's an AST meeting on tonight. Will post some of the updates from @PR_WhoRu.

[Cripps]

AST calculate that, without CL and before any more player sales, the Club are running at an annual rate of £30m cash for transfers.

Still cash in Bank but gets eaten by standard cash flow.

Spent a lot of existing squad, valued in books at £520m with £230m on transfers.

[Cripps]

If Arsenal don’t get 6th, things could get very bad. With EL qualification this year there could be £70m available but Arsenal need to now be a lot more careful, especially as new wages will eat into future cash flows.

[Cripps]

Lee Dixon says it’s not a coincidence that Arsenal get beat to Swansea and Brighton away. He says the players are talented, but uses the term loosely. Says the players being signed are “quite obviously not good enough” and “rudderless”.

[Cripps]

Lee Dixon says Wenger surrounds himself with people who don’t say anything to him and that’s not healthy and nor does it work.

[Cripps]

Recruitment: Dixon says he’s always willing to give players as a chance as he himself wasn’t good enough when he first signed. Says he was lucky George Graham coached him & that Wenger is a “loveable intelligent man, but he’s not a coach”.

[Cripps]

Dixon says Wenger doesn’t coach the players and nor does he stop players in training to tell them when they’re doing something wrong “that’s not his skill-set”. Points to Wenger’s initial skills in knowing French League & adding that on top of George’s base.

[Cripps]

Dixon says that Ashley Cole turned into the best left back in the world under Wenger but that Wenger barely coached him and that it was Tony Adams who gave Cole the one on one coaching that made him the best in the world.

[Cripps]

Dixon says Wenger is a “preparer of players” & that under Arsene he’d never been fitter and more prepared from stretching: “that’s Arsene’s skill-set”. Says Arsene needs helps in other coaching areas but will never accept it & he will never change - and that will be his downfall.

[Cripps]

Dixon says Wenger’s recruitment now has become “panic street” followed by “Mustafi .... don’t get me started on him.”

Dixon says Neville told him he can’t believe Arsenal paid £35m on him & that Valencia once “couldn’t give him away.”

[Cripps]

Dixon says he’s called Bouldie to ask him what Bellerin is doing. Dixon says we could do a whole night on Bellerin. Says it’s not necessarily his fault but he’s not learning any more & is routinely breaking down our attacks & leaves defence too exposed.

[Goonermerree]

Fixed your typo.

Oi, leave my posts alone, just who do you think you are?

[Niall_Quinn]

Dixon says that Ashley Cole turned into the best left back in the world under Wenger but that Wenger barely coached him and that it was Tony Adams who gave Cole the one on one coaching that made him the best in the world.

A long term suspicion confirmed by a player who was in a position to know the facts.

And the same goes for the other Invincible too, no doubt.

[Niall_Quinn]

Dixon says Wenger is a “preparer of players” & that under Arsene he’d never been fitter and more prepared from stretching: “that’s Arsene’s skill-set”. Says Arsene needs helps in other coaching areas but will never accept it & he will never change - and that will be his downfall.

A glorified gym instructor?

[Cripps]

A long term suspicion confirmed by a player who was in a position to know the facts.

And the same goes for the other Invincible too, no doubt.

Exactly what I was thinking. Zim was right.

[Power n Glory]

A long term suspicion confirmed by a player who was in a position to know the facts.

And the same goes for the other Invincible too, no doubt.

Do you know how long we've said this? No young player should sign with him. Piss poor for development and why Ox left.

[HCZ]

Do you know how long we've said this? No young player should sign with him. Piss poor for development and why Ox left.

Whilst I don’t disagree I find the Ox example strange

Maybe I’m not seeing the same things as other people are but he doesn’t seem a remarkably better player at Liverpool, maybe I’m being unfair and he will need time.

Maybe he isn’t that great to begin with. And I’m saying that as someone who loved the Ox when he was with us

[Niall_Quinn]

Do you know how long we've said this? No young player should sign with him. Piss poor for development and why Ox left.

Yeah, but we're arseholes trying to destroy his legacy. Remember?

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger was warned his mythical legacy would come under close scrutiny if he insisted on clinging to the job. He was told he'd be picked to pieces, exposed on every level and hounded out.

He CHOSE to sign that contract and despite being warned about the consequences, not least the terrible consequences to the squad and the reputation of the club, he put himself above the club and served his own selfish interests. And he's made it quite clear he's prepared to do it again next season.

His choice. Everyone else was begging him to bow out on a high after the last cup win (and the one before it). Chance after chance after chance all spat back.

So from where is the sympathy and respect supposed to come from?

He deserves everything he's asked for and was begged not to ask for. What a fool.

[Marc Overmars]

Wenger. :lol:

Legacy in tatters.

[HCZ]

Nothing Dixon has said is a surprise, it’s exactly the same things I hear about Ancelotti and that’s why I’m quite lukewarm on him.

Adams has been saying it for years and the Wenger knows best clowns treated him like a bitter alcoholic

In terms of defensive players especially he’d had no idea what he’s doing. Although it’s also fair to say he made Thierry Henry the player he was in a way that Carlo Ancelotti couldn’t when he had him at Juventus.

I doubt he’d have changed anything about him technically or improved aspects of his game but he saw something in him that others clearly didn’t. And that’s why Henry won’t call for him to go now even though he knows he’s toast.

It’s fair to say his three titles amount to far more than just being in the right time at the right place. But if you were a defender apart from the personal trainer regime it’s unlikely Wenger did anything for you.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger. :lol:

Legacy in tatters.

Bloody sad. But you can't help somebody who won't help himself.

[Master Splinter]

Whilst I don’t disagree I find the Ox example strange

Maybe I’m not seeing the same things as other people are but he doesn’t seem a remarkably better player at Liverpool, maybe I’m being unfair and he will need time.

Maybe he isn’t that great to begin with. And I’m saying that as someone who loved the Ox when he was with us

Yeah, Oxlade is Oxlade. A slightly quicker Milner, with more skillz but less discipline. Or more aptly, he's just another Barkley or Bentley. He's had about three decent games for Liverpool.

[Letters]

Wenger. :lol:

Legacy in tatters.

His legacy is the stadium and the fact that we regard 6th place as a massive failure.
Again, read Fever Pitch if you're too young to remember when were properly shite.

BUT, he has stayed too long and last season's FA Cup was his last chance to get out with some dignity. Soon as he signed that contract he needed to properly challenge or GTFO. So far he's done neither.

[Niall_Quinn]

Nothing Dixon has said is a surprise, it’s exactly the same things I hear about Ancelotti and that’s why I’m quite lukewarm on him.

Adams has been saying it for years and the Wenger knows best clowns treated him like a bitter alcoholic

In terms of defensive players especially he’d had no idea what he’s doing. Although it’s also fair to say he made Thierry Henry the player he was in a way that Carlo Ancelotti couldn’t when he had him at Juventus.

It’s fair to say his three titles amount to far more than just being in the right time at the right place. But if you were a defender apart from the personal trainer regime it’s unlikely Wenger did anything for you.

No, no, no. Thierry Henry made Thierry Henry the player he was. Wenger opened the door for him.

Glorified doorman too? A jack-of-all-menial-trades.

Nobody is disputing the fact Wenger did transform certain aspects of the club and football in general. But as a football coach there's as much proof available that Adams, Vieira, Bergkamp, Henry and Co were the main drivers behind success on the pitch as Wenger ever was. In fact it's becoming increasingly more likely George Graham's back five and the advantages Wenger brought in his understanding of the French leagues opened the way for the players we now call legends to push us to the new heights we enjoyed on the pitch. These guys were so good they succeeded despite Wenger's lack of ability as a coach. Isn't that a more plausible explanation?

[Niall_Quinn]

His legacy is the stadium and the fact that we regard 6th place as a massive failure.
Again, read Fever Pitch if you're too young to remember when were properly shite.

BUT, he has stayed too long and last season's FA Cup was his last chance to get out with some dignity. Soon as he signed that contract he needed to properly challenge or GTFO. So far he's done neither.

Everyone hates the poxy stadium. Arsenal has died in that stadium, and it has been a primary cause of the demise. It has delivered nothing except higher ticket prices and more tourists. So he'd better hope the whole stadium disaster is not his legacy.

And why wouldn't the fans paying top prices consider a distant 6th place as anything other than disaster? What should it be considered as?

And what does it matter if we were once properly shite? Not properly shite enough to ever get relegated, can I use that like you are using the 6th place "disaster' thing? Football was different back then. We may not have been winning titles until George Graham appeared, but we still pitched up in the FA Cup enough times, and isn't winning that supposed to be a sign of success?

[Marc Overmars]

No, no, no. Thierry Henry made Thierry Henry the player he was. Wenger opened the door for him.

Glorified doorman too? A jack-of-all-menial-trades.

Nobody is disputing the fact Wenger did transform certain aspects of the club and football in general. But as a football coach there's as much proof available that Adams, Vieira, Bergkamp, Henry and Co were the main drivers behind success on the pitch as Wenger ever was. In fact it's becoming increasingly more likely George Graham's back five and the advantages Wenger brought in his understanding of the French leagues opened the way for the players we now call legends to push us to the new heights we enjoyed on the pitch. These guys were so good they succeeded despite Wenger's lack of ability as a coach. Isn't that a more plausible explanation?

People don't like revisionism but I think it's now important we look back on his successes armed with the knowledge we have now.

[Niall_Quinn]

People don't like revisionism but I think it's now important we look back on his successes armed with the knowledge we have now.

If only to try and figure out why he's now so inept at everything he touches. It's not good enough to say the game moved on but he didn't and just accept that. Why didn't he move too? Why did he watch the game moving for a decade and do fuck all to react? What happened to his great powers that he supposedly has to bring through young talent and build title challenging teams despite a lack of resources? These powers have been tested and he's come up lacking every time. So this means something very significant has affected his capabilities over the intervening years, or he never possessed these capabilities in the first place. And if the latter is true then we need to give a bit more respect to those who deserve it and stand back a bit from those who have been basking in the credit. Basking in the credit to the degree fans who question any of this are called disloyal. And basking to the point where he's been give extra years that he'd never have been granted at any other club.

[Cripps]

88 per cent of AST voted for Arsenal ending Wenger contract this summer. Last season (first they surveyed fans on topic) 78 per cent voted against a new deal for manager.

2 more years then :lol:

[Master Splinter]

What if it's as simple as a guy losing his touch as he gets older? That, and he doesn't adapt or evolve even slightly.

[Cripps]

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/320/cpsprodpb/F8A7/production/_100255636_trans.jpg

[Niall_Quinn]

88 per cent of AST voted for Arsenal ending Wenger contract this summer. Last season (first they surveyed fans on topic) 78 per cent voted against a new deal for manager.

2 more years then :lol:

So 12 percent are certifiably insane or hate the club?

[Niall_Quinn]

What if it's as simple as a guy losing his touch as he gets older? That, and he doesn't adapt or evolve even slightly.

This degree of decline would suggest serious mental issues. Which is what I have suggested. The guy might be mentally ill. Doesn't mean he has to run starkers up and down the road, but if certain mental faculties have been impaired then it would help maintain his legacy. He should plead insanity.

[HCZ]

If only to try and figure out why he's now so inept at everything he touches. It's not good enough to say the game moved on but he didn't and just accept that. Why didn't he move too? Why did he watch the game moving for a decade and do fuck all to react? What happened to his great powers that he supposedly has to bring through young talent and build title challenging teams despite a lack of resources? These powers have been tested and he's come up lacking every time. So this means something very significant has affected his capabilities over the intervening years, or he never possessed these capabilities in the first place. And if the latter is true then we need to give a bit more respect to those who deserve it and stand back a bit from those who have been basking in the credit. Basking in the credit to the degree fans who question any of this are called disloyal. And basking to the point where he's been give extra years that he'd never have been granted at any other club.

Because some people don’t adapt, in fact the majority of managers don’t adapt and that’s why you have managers that are of their time and managers that stand the test of time and Wenger falls into the former category

If you want to see managers falling to adapt, the guy once considered the greatest manager ever in the game struggling against Palace and risking losing three away games on the spin.

[HCZ]

This degree of decline would suggest serious mental issues. Which is what I have suggested. The guy might be mentally ill. Doesn't mean he has to run starkers up and down the road, but if certain mental faculties have been impaired then it would help maintain his legacy. He should plead insanity.

It’s more if you think you can hold your trainers together with duct tape rather than replace them, don’t be surprised if after a while it comes loose and you are walking home barefoot and stepping on dog shit and broken glass

[Power n Glory]

Whilst I don’t disagree I find the Ox example strange

Maybe I’m not seeing the same things as other people are but he doesn’t seem a remarkably better player at Liverpool, maybe I’m being unfair and he will need time.

Maybe he isn’t that great to begin with. And I’m saying that as someone who loved the Ox when he was with us

I said it's why Ox left not that Ox has arrived at Liverpool and instantly a better player. The damage to Ox has been done and it will take time for him to unlearn the bullshit at Arsenal.

Everyone here said Ox would be a far better player than Walcott. Now look at him. Ox has all the physical and technical tools in his locker to be a top player except the decision making and consistency with execution. We have many players that have that same problem.... Theo, Ramsey, Wilshere, Gibbs. We had high hopes for all of them. Iwobi is going through the same problem right now. Bellerin too. Nelson next if Wenger stays on.

[Niall_Quinn]

Because some people don’t adapt, in fact the majority of managers don’t adapt and that’s why you have managers that are of their time and managers that stand the test of time and Wenger falls into the former category

If you want to see managers falling to adapt, the guy once considered the greatest manager ever in the game struggling against Palace and risking losing three away games on the spin.

So he's a one trick pony whose trick expired a decade and a half ago. I think he's better off with the insanity plea.

[Letters]

Everyone hates the poxy stadium. Arsenal has died in that stadium, and it has been a primary cause of the demise. It has delivered nothing except higher ticket prices and more tourists. So he'd better hope the whole stadium disaster is not his legacy.
As a stadium it's about a million times better than Highbury. It is soulless - partly because of the lack of history but that can only come about with time. Were the internet around a hundred years ago your great grandfather would probably be whining on it about Highbury and asking what was wrong with South London. The fact that we haven't had a title there is a factor, we haven't had a really successful side since we've been there, things like that create memories.
The fact is we had to do it. We've pondered for years whether Wenger could really compete these days, clearly he can't. I held out hope longer than most but whatever, we're on the same page about that now. But the next chap would be massively hindered in his attempts to do so were we still at Highbury. Every other top club has expanded, moved grounds or is looking to. The fact that we have a fanbase large enough to fill it is pretty much down to Wenger and the success and style of football in the early years. Our average home attendance in 1993/4 was around 30,000, and that year we finished 4th and won the CWC. It was only a few years after the last Graham title.


And why wouldn't the fans paying top prices consider a distant 6th place as anything other than disaster? What should it be considered as?
It's nowhere near good enough, given our resources. But you have to concede that those resources and the fanbase which generates them are in no small part down to Wenger.


And what does it matter if we were once properly shite? Not properly shite enough to ever get relegated, can I use that like you are using the 6th place "disaster' thing? Football was different back then. We may not have been winning titles until George Graham appeared, but we still pitched up in the FA Cup enough times, and isn't winning that supposed to be a sign of success?
It matters because it provides some historic context. We've always been a big club but not since the 1930s were we the best side in the country for a sustained period of time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pitched up". We won the FA Cup in 1971, 1979 and 1993 before Wenger joined.
We've won it that many times in the previous 4 seasons and everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth. But that's because our expectations have changed. That level of expectation comes in no small part from Wenger's early time with us. Before that we never had that expectation.
We've pretty much never been properly shite enough to get relegated - but we never had any expectations of a title challenge. Maybe a hope we would but those hopes were generally dashed pretty early in the season. And we were much more erratic. We nearly became "Invincibles" in 1991, two years later it was the height of boring boring Arsenal and while we did win both domestic cups that year our league form was such that at one point I genuinely believed we'd be dragged into a relegation scrap. Our last 27 league games our results were W6 D9 L12. We scored 40 goals in 42 league games. That season we clearly concentrated our efforts on the cups but these days that isn't acceptable, we expect to be competing on all fronts. We didn't expect that before Wenger.

I hope Wenger goes sooner rather than later. Every season - it's getting to the stage where it's every match - further damages his legacy and reputation. But I hope when he goes and the smoke clears people will remember the good times. My happiest memories of Arsenal are from his time with us, most people's are. Clough took Forest down in the end and I think he's still regarded as a Forest hero, all Wenger's done is failed to sustain the early success and is now not even able to maintain his record of keeping us in the top 4.

Like any manager he has strengths and weaknesses. Those strengths revolutionised us as a club and it revolutionised the game over here. It brought us a sack of trophies and a level and style of football I never thought I'd see Arsenal ascend to. Those weaknesses failed to make the most of one of the great squads in English club history - he never won the CL, he never retained a title. Other clubs have caught up and now surpassed us. But while top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, keeping us in there, and the FA Cups, show Wenger hasn't got everything wrong. I just wish he'd gone at the end of last season, that was his last chance to be applauded out the door.

[Letters]

People don't like revisionism but I think it's now important we look back on his successes armed with the knowledge we have now.

Why is it important?

[Niall_Quinn]

As a stadium it's about a million times better than Highbury. It is soulless - partly because of the lack of history but that can only come about with time. Were the internet around a hundred years ago your great grandfather would probably be whining on it about Highbury and asking what was wrong with South London. The fact that we haven't had a title there is a factor, we haven't had a really successful side since we've been there, things like that create memories.
The fact is we had to do it. We've pondered for years whether Wenger could really compete these days, clearly he can't. I held out hope longer than most but whatever, we're on the same page about that now. But the next chap would be massively hindered in his attempts to do so were we still at Highbury. Every other top club has expanded, moved grounds or is looking to. The fact that we have a fanbase large enough to fill it is pretty much down to Wenger and the success and style of football in the early years. Our average home attendance in 1993/4 was around 30,000, and that year we finished 4th and won the CWC. It was only a few years after the last Graham title.


It's nowhere near good enough, given our resources. But you have to concede that those resources and the fanbase which generates them are in no small part down to Wenger.


It matters because it provides some historic context. We've always been a big club but not since the 1930s were we the best side in the country for a sustained period of time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pitched up". We won the FA Cup in 1971, 1979 and 1993 before Wenger joined.
We've won it that many times in the previous 4 seasons and everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth. But that's because our expectations have changed. That level of expectation comes in no small part from Wenger's early time with us. Before that we never had that expectation.
We've pretty much never been properly shite enough to get relegated - but we never had any expectations of a title challenge. Maybe a hope we would but those hopes were generally dashed pretty early in the season. And we were much more erratic. We nearly became "Invincibles" in 1991, two years later it was the height of boring boring Arsenal and while we did win both domestic cups that year our league form was such that at one point I genuinely believed we'd be dragged into a relegation scrap. Our last 27 league games our results were W6 D9 L12. We scored 40 goals in 42 league games. That season we clearly concentrated our efforts on the cups but these days that isn't acceptable, we expect to be competing on all fronts. We didn't expect that before Wenger.

I hope Wenger goes sooner rather than later. Every season - it's getting to the stage where it's every match - further damages his legacy and reputation. But I hope when he goes and the smoke clears people will remember the good times. My happiest memories of Arsenal are from his time with us, most people's are. Clough took Forest down in the end and I think he's still regarded as a Forest hero, all Wenger's done is failed to sustain the early success and is now not even able to maintain his record of keeping us in the top 4.

Like any manager he has strengths and weaknesses. Those strengths revolutionised us as a club and it revolutionised the game over here. It brought us a sack of trophies and a level and style of football I never thought I'd see Arsenal ascend to. Those weaknesses failed to make the most of one of the great squads in English club history - he never won the CL, he never retained a title. Other clubs have caught up and now surpassed us. But while top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, keeping us in there, and the FA Cups, show Wenger hasn't got everything wrong. I just wish he'd gone at the end of last season, that was his last chance to be applauded out the door.

That bit in bold, that's the bit that going to be disputed after Wenger has gone.

Did he love Arsenal or was he a con artist who stuffed his wallet at the expense of the club and the fans? It's now fairly clear the latter is true, that's why his legacy will be tarnished and possibly erased if he persists.

And it's starting to appear he has NO strengths whatsoever as a manager. Shit coach, shit motivator, shit tactically, shit in the transfer market when he doesn't have a head start, shit at bringing youngsters through, shit at getting the best from players, shit at adapting, shit at preparing for different opponents, shit at everything to do with what happens on a football pitch. Truth though, isn't it? I'm just going on the record. Take away all his early advantages and what's left in a head to head against the top coaches? Look at his European record. What does it tell you?

[Niall_Quinn]

Why is it important?

So Dixon tells us Adams was the coach who helped Ashley Cole develop, and that Wenger is a nice bloke but can't coach. And yet Wenger is held up as the guy who masterminded the Invincibles while Adams is banned from the club. That's just one player and one victim of the Wenger myth. Would it surprise you in any way if there are more examples like this? Wouldn't surprise me at all. So it could be we haven't placed the credit for past triumphs where it belongs. And it could be somebody is lording it up while the real legends get binned. Important to know if that's the case I think. So we can have a real history of the club we support, rather than a fantasy one.

[Letters]

That bit in bold, that's the bit that going to be disputed after Wenger has gone.

Did he love Arsenal or was he a con artist who stuffed his wallet at the expense of the club and the fans? It's now fairly clear the latter is true, that's why his legacy will be tarnished and possibly erased if he persists.

And it's starting to appear he has NO strengths whatsoever as a manager. Shit coach, shit motivator, shit tactically, shit in the transfer market when he doesn't have a head start, shit at bringing youngsters through, shit at getting the best from players, shit at adapting, shit at preparing for different opponents, shit at everything to do with what happens on a football pitch. Truth though, isn't it? I'm just going on the record. Take away all his early advantages and what's left in a head to head against the top coaches? Look at his European record. What does it tell you?

So till the last couple of seasons he's kept us top 4 every year and we've won 3 FA Cups in 4 years and he has NO strengths as a manger?
Behave.
And I disagree that is "fairly clear". I have literally no idea how you decide what to believe, on other topics it seems to be more-or-less based on whether it agrees with your prevailing world view. I just think he's deluded and thinks he can still do a job, if he still thinks so after this season then I despair.

[Xhaka Can’t]

As a stadium it's about a million times better than Highbury. It is soulless - partly because of the lack of history but that can only come about with time. Were the internet around a hundred years ago your great grandfather would probably be whining on it about Highbury and asking what was wrong with South London. The fact that we haven't had a title there is a factor, we haven't had a really successful side since we've been there, things like that create memories.
The fact is we had to do it. We've pondered for years whether Wenger could really compete these days, clearly he can't. I held out hope longer than most but whatever, we're on the same page about that now. But the next chap would be massively hindered in his attempts to do so were we still at Highbury. Every other top club has expanded, moved grounds or is looking to. The fact that we have a fanbase large enough to fill it is pretty much down to Wenger and the success and style of football in the early years. Our average home attendance in 1993/4 was around 30,000, and that year we finished 4th and won the CWC. It was only a few years after the last Graham title.


It's nowhere near good enough, given our resources. But you have to concede that those resources and the fanbase which generates them are in no small part down to Wenger.


It matters because it provides some historic context. We've always been a big club but not since the 1930s were we the best side in the country for a sustained period of time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pitched up". We won the FA Cup in 1971, 1979 and 1993 before Wenger joined.
We've won it that many times in the previous 4 seasons and everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth. But that's because our expectations have changed. That level of expectation comes in no small part from Wenger's early time with us. Before that we never had that expectation.
We've pretty much never been properly shite enough to get relegated - but we never had any expectations of a title challenge. Maybe a hope we would but those hopes were generally dashed pretty early in the season. And we were much more erratic. We nearly became "Invincibles" in 1991, two years later it was the height of boring boring Arsenal and while we did win both domestic cups that year our league form was such that at one point I genuinely believed we'd be dragged into a relegation scrap. Our last 27 league games our results were W6 D9 L12. We scored 40 goals in 42 league games. That season we clearly concentrated our efforts on the cups but these days that isn't acceptable, we expect to be competing on all fronts. We didn't expect that before Wenger.

I hope Wenger goes sooner rather than later. Every season - it's getting to the stage where it's every match - further damages his legacy and reputation. But I hope when he goes and the smoke clears people will remember the good times. My happiest memories of Arsenal are from his time with us, most people's are. Clough took Forest down in the end and I think he's still regarded as a Forest hero, all Wenger's done is failed to sustain the early success and is now not even able to maintain his record of keeping us in the top 4.

Like any manager he has strengths and weaknesses. Those strengths revolutionised us as a club and it revolutionised the game over here. It brought us a sack of trophies and a level and style of football I never thought I'd see Arsenal ascend to. Those weaknesses failed to make the most of one of the great squads in English club history - he never won the CL, he never retained a title. Other clubs have caught up and now surpassed us. But while top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, keeping us in there, and the FA Cups, show Wenger hasn't got everything wrong. I just wish he'd gone at the end of last season, that was his last chance to be applauded out the door.

Good post.

Agree with it and most of the context within it. When we nearly became the Invincibles, it was during a more difficult time than when we did achieve it. That is because the difference between the haves and have nots was far less than it is today.

Back then, the League was far more egalitarian and competitive than now. I even remember fighting and losing against Sheffield Wednesday for Andy Sinton’s signature.

[Power n Glory]

Why is it important?

It's like finding out your favorite band/artist doesn't play their own instruments or write their own songs but for years have been regarded by fans and peers as a musical genius. It's important.

[Niall_Quinn]

So till the last couple of seasons he's kept us top 4 every year and we've won 3 FA Cups in 4 years and he has NO strengths as a manger?
Behave.
And I disagree that is "fairly clear". I have literally no idea how you decide what to believe, on other topics it seems to be more-or-less based on whether it agrees with your prevailing world view. I just think he's deluded and thinks he can still do a job, if he still thinks so after this season then I despair.

I'm basing my views on the way he's supported EVERY move by the club that stuffed the fans. Robbed them in return for empty promises. More fool the fans, of course, but it still doesn't excuse the thief. And even he admitted his contract negotiations fucked the club up last season. So I'm going on what's actually happened over the years. You're settling on a DIY psychological profiling. Not that I'm saying you're wrong. Plainly he's delusional too. Megalomaniacs generally are.

And go ahead and list his strong points as a manager.

[Power n Glory]

So Dixon tells us Adams was the coach who helped Ashley Cole develop, and that Wenger is a nice bloke but can't coach. And yet Wenger is held up as the guy who masterminded the Invincibles while Adams is banned from the club. That's just one player and one victim of the Wenger myth. Would it surprise you in any way if there are more examples like this? Wouldn't surprise me at all. So it could be we haven't placed the credit for past triumphs where it belongs. And it could be somebody is lording it up while the real legends get binned. Important to know if that's the case I think. So we can have a real history of the club we support, rather than a fantasy one.

:gp:

[KSE Comedy Club]

So 12 percent are certifiably insane or hate the club?somewhat bizarrely, 5 percent were undecided and 7 percent thought Wenger should make the decision when he leaves.

:blink:

How fucking retarded are these people?!?

[Marc Overmars]

Why is it important?

In 2004, Wenger was rightly regarded as one of the greatest in the game. The weaknesses we speak of now were never spoken about back then, even though we claim they were always there. I’m not sure how much was already there and how much has developed over time once the players he inherited had all gone and he had a squad purely in his image.

The reason why Fergie is so revered is because he rebuilt when he had to and got the same results. Once Wenger had to rebuild he was never the same. Though I fully accept the stadium played a part in the quality of player he could bring in, it just wasn’t even close to replicating the same strengths from the players that he enjoyed success with. Polar opposites infact.

[AFC Leveller]

I read somewhere that we now qualify for the fucking Thursday by default as City will play CL football (winners of the carling cup qualify for the Thursday league). That’s depressing, really hate this competition and the way you have to play 79 games to get to the last 8.

[Özim]

Personally don't mind the Europa, what bugs me is how we don't take it seriously at all, it's a European trophy and can get you in the CL which for me is far far better than getting 4th place which let's face it is a position for losers.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I wouldn't go down the revisionism route about Wenger - his position is already untenable without us needing to engage in this silliness.

He was a fucking fantastic manager once upon a time who had a clear footballing philosophy and could get the best out of his players. Those days are long gone now and he's regressed to a terrible manager with no idea about how to implement of style of football into the current football environment and wastes away the careers of talented footballers.

And putting Ashely Cole's development solely on Tony Adams? Give me a break. If Adams was that brilliant he wouldn't have been such an abysmal failure as a coach/manager since then at a string of clubs and publicly embarrassed himself at them. He kind of reminds me of Sol in the weird sense of over importance he has on his own abilities despite having done jack shit mangerially.

I want Wenger gone as much as the next person but I don't have time for some of the BS spouted by some of our former players, some of whom are too afraid too go into coaching and prefer to take the easier option of working in the media. In particular I'm looking at Thierry here.

[Mac76]

I said it's why Ox left not that Ox has arrived at Liverpool and instantly a better player. The damage to Ox has been done and it will take time for him to unlearn the bullshit at Arsenal.

Everyone here said Ox would be a far better player than Walcott. Now look at him. Ox has all the physical and technical tools in his locker to be a top player except the decision making and consistency with execution. We have many players that have that same problem.... Theo, Ramsey, Wilshere, Gibbs. We had high hopes for all of them. Iwobi is going through the same problem right now. Bellerin too. Nelson next if Wenger stays on.

yeah Nelson is amazing for the youth team (and i;ve seen him play whole matches against Citeh and Yanited youth) but the few times Wenger has played him it's been out of position and you can see he's not given the right support - players are just thrown out there with no direction

players talk about Wenger being remote - if so he clearly can't have much influence on them

and as for Ox, he's already shaping up under Klopp - played a big part in their 2-0 win the other day

[Niall_Quinn]

yeah Nelson is amazing for the youth team (and i;ve seen him play whole matches against Citeh and Yanited youth) but the few times Wenger has played him it's been out of position and you can see he's not given the right support - players are just thrown out there with no direction

players talk about Wenger being remote - if so he clearly can't have much influence on them

and as for Ox, he's already shaping up under Klopp - played a big part in their 2-0 win the other day

Wenger's not remote enough, IMO.

Siberia would satisfy me.

But Wenger would miss the plane haggling over the ticket.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wouldn't go down the revisionism route about Wenger - his position is already untenable without us needing to engage in this silliness.

He was a fucking fantastic manager once upon a time who had a clear footballing philosophy and could get the best out of his players. Those days are long gone now and he's regressed to a terrible manager with no idea about how to implement of style of football into the current football environment and wastes away the careers of talented footballers.

And putting Ashely Cole's development solely on Tony Adams? Give me a break. If Adams was that brilliant he wouldn't have been such an abysmal failure as a coach/manager since then at a string of clubs and publicly embarrassed himself at them. He kind of reminds me of Sol in the weird sense of over importance he has on his own abilities despite having done jack shit mangerially.

I want Wenger gone as much as the next person but I don't have time for some of the BS spouted by some of our former players, some of whom are too afraid too go into coaching and prefer to take the easier option of working in the media. In particular I'm looking at Thierry here.

I'm pretty damn sure everyone benefitted from working with Adams on a pitch, day in day out, and given Wenger's own bullshit theories on what makes good coaching, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Cole learned more from Adams than Wenger. We can all see Wenger's leadership abilities, or I mean we can't because he doesn't have any. If it seems unlikely that Adams could be a good leader as a player but a shit coach thereafter, why is it so reasonable that Wenger was this genius who suddenly became inept in every way? At least Adams was in different roles. Wenger has been in the same place all this time.

This guy is not going to leave. He's going to have to be hounded out. That's what he's chosen. He has chosen this situation, it hasn't been forced on him.

[The Emirates Gallactico]

I'm pretty damn sure everyone benefitted from working with Adams on a pitch, day in day out, and given Wenger's own bullshit theories on what makes good coaching, it doesn't surprise me a bit that Cole learned more from Adams than Wenger. We can all see Wenger's leadership abilities, or I mean we can't because he doesn't have any. If it seems unlikely that Adams could be a good leader as a player but a shit coach thereafter, why is it so reasonable that Wenger was this genius who suddenly became inept in every way? At least Adams was in different roles. Wenger has been in the same place all this time.

This guy is not going to leave. He's going to have to be hounded out. That's what he's chosen. He has chosen this situation, it hasn't been forced on him.

Fair enough. Adams may have been a good leader on the pitch but a poor one off it - but Ashley wasn't an exception in terms of players that really blossomed under Wenger. It seems childish then to try and downplay the influence Wenger had on player development considering all the success stories back then. I don't think it's fair to to say that Wenger can be held responsible for everything bad that's going on now without also him then being responsible for all the good things in the past.


And I don't think Wenger or the board for that matter gives a fuck about what pundits on TV say. They barely care about the fans as it is.

[Niall_Quinn]

Fair enough. Adams may have been a good leader on the pitch but a poor one off it - but Ashley wasn't an exception in terms of players that really blossomed under Wenger. It seems childish then to try and downplay the influence Wenger had on player development considering all the success stories back then. I don't think it's fair to to say that Wenger can be held responsible for everything bad that's going on now without also him then being responsible for all the good things in the past.


And I don't think Wenger or the board for that matter gives a fuck about what pundits on TV say. They barely care about the fans as it is.

Dixon may be a pundit now, but he played right alongside Adams in the most successful defence we've had. And he's not the only ex-player who has explained Wenger's lack of input in terms of actual coaching. When you have legends like Wright, a guy who loves Arsenal to the core, speaking up like he has then there may be some fire beneath the smoke.

It's hard to know why Wenger didn't bow out on the multiple occasions that presented themselves. Sure, he may have nothing else in life, but does he really want a life that sees him hounded from pillar to post? What sort of a life is that? Can he not take up a hobby FFS? Everyone ends up having to retire, either by choice or by death. Sounds to me like this guy is choosing the latter and no wonder people are getting fed up with his hijacking of the whole club. It's just gone on way too long. Of course he's going to get heavy flak coming his way.

[Marc Overmars]

Adams was a monster on the pitch, I see no reason why he wouldn't have given those around him the rub.

Now, Adams the coach is a freak but Dixon is talking about Adams the player isn't he? He's not claiming he should succeed Wenger. Dixon played under Wenger and is likely to be privy to inside information from the club - far more reliable than any hack.

I think we're too quick to pour scorn on what our ex players have to say, especially when speaking out against Lord Wenger.

[Özim]

Personally wouldn't mind Adams at Arsenal in some form (defensive coach), he's Arsenal through and through and a legend, would happily bring back top players to coach and be part of the setup, they were winners, we could have had Henry here already of course, but Wenger shut that down because he didn't want to be challenged. The managers position however I'd give to someone else.

[Özim]

Dixon may be a pundit now, but he played right alongside Adams in the most successful defence we've had. And he's not the only ex-player who has explained Wenger's lack of input in terms of actual coaching. When you have legends like Wright, a guy who loves Arsenal to the core, speaking up like he has then there may be some fire beneath the smoke.

It's hard to know why Wenger didn't bow out on the multiple occasions that presented themselves. Sure, he may have nothing else in life, but does he really want a life that sees him hounded from pillar to post? What sort of a life is that? Can he not take up a hobby FFS? Everyone ends up having to retire, either by choice or by death. Sounds to me like this guy is choosing the latter and no wonder people are getting fed up with his hijacking of the whole club. It's just gone on way too long. Of course he's going to get heavy flak coming his way.

Wenger was never a great manager IMO, his record before he joined us shows that, yes he had an eye for players in the French market which at the time was at it's peak, but for me it was just as much about what he inherited as his ability, the combination worked perfectly, but as a standalone manager having to build everything himself from the bottom up he's average.

This isn't revisionism, it's based on his career and his inability to actually build a successful team without some input from the players he had inherited, now some will say the invincibles were his team, I'd argue all of them learnt from those before them and were winners in their own right.

[Letters]

It's like finding out your favorite band/artist doesn't play their own instruments or write their own songs but for years have been regarded by fans and peers as a musical genius. It's important.

:lol: Fair enough, but Wenger is no Milli Vanilli.
Elvis didn't write his own songs and a lot of people still go nuts about him. His strength was as a singer and performer, not a composer. That doesn't diminish people's admiration of him.

Wenger has strengths and weaknesses like every football manager. Like every human.
Any football manager has a team around him. There's the players of course but people off the pitch too. Dein was clearly influential back in the day. Historically though it has always been the manager who gets the most praise for successes and criticism for failures.

To say he just inherited a good defence is lazy. He did, but that team were nowhere near winning the title when Wenger took over and The Invincibles squad was entirely Wenger's, even if some of them were perhaps influenced by the older generation.
Clough did amazing things at Forest and then oversaw a long, slow decline which ended up in them getting relegated. Relegated! And I have never seen anyone pore over or analyse Clough's early success like this to try and diminish his achievements.

When it's 2003 and you're 5 points clear and you then go on a run of W2 D3 L2 which sees Utd go above us and win the title then of course it's disappointing but you have just won the Double the previous year and we did go on to win the FA Cup. It seems a bit churlish to complain. Or it's 2004 and you've just gone out of the CL and FA Cup in a week but then you beat Liverpool and go on to not only win the league but go through the whole season unbeaten.
That is not the to think "Hang on...shouldn't we have retained the title in that era? Shouldn't we have won a CL with that squad?"
Looking back we can think these things, but that doesn't completely diminish the achievements in that era or mean he was never any good.

Even since the glory days he's kept us in the top 4 till the last couple of seasons. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from a title in 2007/8. The last 4 seasons it's been
4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

And people are acting like it's the end of days and Wenger is the worst manager in football. A little over-stated, non?
This is our worst ever season under him and we'll probably finish 6th and we got to a Cup final. As I said, Clough took Forest down and was treated far more kindly than Wenger has been.

The only reason I can see to be quite so outraged is if you think that Wenger is not interested in success any more and is only intent on feathering his own and the board's nest. Personally, I don't think that.
He was a man of his time, but that time was 20 years ago. He hasn't moved on, football has. I honestly think it's as simple as that. I think he did pretty well to keep us relatively competitive during the stadium move.
Since the money has been available he's won a few FA Cups but he's failed to challenge for the biggest prizes. So he should go.
I don't think he should be chased down the streets with burning torches though or all his previous achievements pored over so we can try and find a way of crediting someone else for them.

[HCZ]

The only reason I can see for historical revisionism on Wenger is resentment towards him for what he’s doing now.

If people are genuinely baffled as to how a manager can win things at one point and now be awful well look at 90% of all managers in the game. Most have a sell by date

As for what Dixon said last night, is it really a smoking gun?. Did anyone but the Wenger purists really think he was a coach and made players especially defenders better in training with some kind of one on one tutelage?.

And if you think shitting on his achievements makes it easier to displace him, not really sure I follow the logic there

It is not contradictory to say very few managers could have achieved with Arsenal what Wenger did between 1998 and 2004, and also say very few managers would be doing as badly as Wenger is now with Arsenal in 2018

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: Fair enough, but Wenger is no Milli Vanilli.
Elvis didn't write his own songs and a lot of people still go nuts about him. His strength was as a singer and performer, not a composer. That doesn't diminish people's admiration of him.

Wenger has strengths and weaknesses like every football manager. Like every human.
Any football manager has a team around him. There's the players of course but people off the pitch too. Dein was clearly influential back in the day. Historically though it has always been the manager who gets the most praise for successes and criticism for failures.

To say he just inherited a good defence is lazy. He did, but that team were nowhere near winning the title when Wenger took over and The Invincibles squad was entirely Wenger's, even if some of them were perhaps influenced by the older generation.
Clough did amazing things at Forest and then oversaw a long, slow decline which ended up in them getting relegated. Relegated! And I have never seen anyone pore over or analyse Clough's early success like this to try and diminish his achievements.

When it's 2003 and you're 5 points clear and you then go on a run of W2 D3 L2 which sees Utd go above us and win the title then of course it's disappointing but you have just won the Double the previous year and we did go on to win the FA Cup. It seems a bit churlish to complain. Or it's 2004 and you've just gone out of the CL and FA Cup in a week but then you beat Liverpool and go on to not only win the league but go through the whole season unbeaten.
That is not the to think "Hang on...shouldn't we have retained the title in that era? Shouldn't we have won a CL with that squad?"
Looking back we can think these things, but that doesn't completely diminish the achievements in that era or mean he was never any good.

Even since the glory days he's kept us in the top 4 till the last couple of seasons. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from a title in 2007/8. The last 4 seasons it's been
4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

And people are acting like it's the end of days and Wenger is the worst manager in football. A little over-stated, non?
This is our worst ever season under him and we'll probably finish 6th and we got to a Cup final. As I said, Clough took Forest down and was treated far more kindly than Wenger has been.

The only reason I can see to be quite so outraged is if you think that Wenger is not interested in success any more and is only intent on feathering his own and the board's nest. Personally, I don't think that.
He was a man of his time, but that time was 20 years ago. He hasn't moved on, football has. I honestly think it's as simple as that. I think he did pretty well to keep us relatively competitive during the stadium move.
Since the money has been available he's won a few FA Cups but he's failed to challenge for the biggest prizes. So he should go.
I don't think he should be chased down the streets with burning torches though or all his previous achievements pored over so we can try and find a way of crediting someone else for them.

You keep claiming Wenger has strengths as a manager, as well as weaknesses. We know all about the weaknesses. But could you please list his strengths? As a football manager, not as a financier.

[Letters]

You keep claiming Wenger has strengths as a manager, as well as weaknesses. We know all about the weaknesses. But could you please list his strengths? As a football manager, not as a financier.

You keep claiming he has no strengths. Could you please explain how someone as inept as you claim could oversee 4 seasons where the end result was:

4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

We are underachieving given our resources. But not as much as we would be were Wenger quite as clueless as you claim.

[Niall_Quinn]

The only reason I can see for historical revisionism on Wenger is resentment towards him for what he’s doing now.

If people are genuinely baffled as to how a manager can win things at one point and now be awful well look at 90% of all managers in the game. Most have a sell by date

As for what Dixon said last night, is it really a smoking gun?. Did anyone but the Wenger purists really think he was a coach and made players especially defenders better in training with some kind of one on one tutelage?.

And if you think shitting on his achievements makes it easier to displace him, not really sure I follow the logic there

It is not contradictory to say very few managers could have achieved with Arsenal what Wenger did between 1998 and 2004, and also say very few managers would be doing as badly as Wenger is now with Arsenal in 2018

It's Wenger coming out and reminding us how marvellous he is. Nobody formed a committee to kill his legacy. Wenger is the bullshit artist forcing this with his irrelevant talk about refusing other clubs and his insistence that the magnitude of his achievements mean he shouldn't have to answer any questions. So let's look at those achievements, do they warrant Wenger getting a free pass? I don't think so.

Besides, if the achievements are correctly attributed then they'll stand up to scrutiny, won't they?

[Niall_Quinn]

You keep claiming he has no strengths. Could you please explain how someone as inept as you claim could oversee 4 seasons where the end result was:

4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

We are underachieving given our resources. But not as much as we would be were Wenger quite as clueless as you claim.

Yes, I claim he has no strengths. But you claim he has. So please tell me what they are.

Indeed, a massive club like Arsenal, with all its resources, has won the FA Cup on multiple occasions. Is this down to Wenger then? He used his currently unspecified strengths to win those trophies? So why didn't he use the same strength to mount a credible challenge in the league these past 12 years? And I thought he was delusional, past it, behind the times. If so, how is he responsible for those cup wins?

Your position seems to hold many contradictions. Probably just easier if you list Wenger's strengths, then we can see how those would have influenced the cup wins and yet, mysteriously, failed to have any impact in the major tournaments.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Jesus Christ!

Not this fucking debate again!

I thought we had all established by now that Wenger is a cunt? :shrug:

[Xhaka Can’t]

Jesus Christ!

Not this fucking debate again!

I thought we had all established by now that Wenger is a cunt? :shrug:

No, all we established was that you’re a cunt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[HCZ]

Yes, I claim he has no strengths. But you claim he has. So please tell me what they are.

Indeed, a massive club like Arsenal, with all its resources, has won the FA Cup on multiple occasions. Is this down to Wenger then? He used his currently unspecified strengths to win those trophies? So why didn't he use the same strength to mount a credible challenge in the league these past 12 years? And I thought he was delusional, past it, behind the times. If so, how is he responsible for those cup wins?

Your position seems to hold many contradictions. Probably just easier if you list Wenger's strengths, then we can see how those would have influenced the cup wins and yet, mysteriously, failed to have any impact in the major tournaments.

If Wenger has no strengths then he cannot he held responsible for what’s happening now

If it was totally down to the players and nothing to do with him winning three titles, then it’s totally down to the players and nothing to do with him that we’ve lost four in a row and eight in 14.

His strengths were in identifying players of great talent that other clubs had overlooked and unlocking their potential, any claim to the contrary that Henry was destined to be a world class striker is unfalsifiable.

His strengths were giving that back line of the George Graham era more time in the game than they would otherwise have had.

And then building a new defence as they did retire. Was he directly involved in Ashley Cole’s development.....maybe not but he saw his potential to pick him, he bought in Lauren as the replacement for Dixon. He convinced Sol Campbell to come here, he utilised a midfielder from a club in the Ivory Coast to be his centre back partner.

He relied on the character and drive of other players past and present to win titles.

Does that justify giving him unprecedented power, to ignore all other advice and believe solely in his own counsel. No

But denying he has any strengths?, it’s based on little other than resentment and petulance.

How dare he not fuck off the arrogant cunt. I need to totally disconstruct him.

[Özim]

Noone thinks it's solely down to the players he won titles, more that he required those ingredients to win them and is incapable of finding them himself.

In terms of how good a manager he is, I'd say not particularly good as he's effectively unable to build a top side in his own right, he requires key ingredients to be there to begin with.

His weaknesses are glaringly obvious and when you look at strengths vs weaknesses and the fact he came into the game with a bit of an advantage in that he knew the French market at a time scouting wasn't as well developed and when French football was at it's peak also made a big different, this wasn't so much a strength as an advantage.

Since 2004 he's done very little of note and you won't find many top managers that go 14 years without really challenging or winning one of the top trophies available to them.

[KSE Comedy Club]

No, all we established was that you’re a cunt.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

How shameful :sulk:

You've no right calling me that, remind me again, how many substitutions you have made?

[Cripps]

Do any of you lot work?

[HCZ]

Do any of you lot work?

Poisoning your colleagues through the by products of chronic flatulence aggravated by eating sprouts isn’t working

[HCZ]

Noone thinks it's solely down to the players he won titles, more that he required those ingredients to win them and is incapable of finding them himself.

In terms of how good a manager he is, I'd say not particularly good as he's effectively unable to build a top side in his own right, he requires key ingredients to be there to begin with.

His weaknesses are glaringly obvious and when you look at strengths vs weaknesses and the fact he came into the game with a bit of an advantage in that he knew the French market at a time scouting wasn't as well developed and when French football was at it's peak also made a big different, this wasn't so much a strength as an advantage.

Since 2004 he's done very little of note and you won't find many top managers that go 14 years without really challenging or winning one of the top trophies available to them.

How many players at the club were there prior to his arrival during the unbeaten season

It’s fair to say this was a team he built himself

[Niall_Quinn]

If Wenger has no strengths then he cannot he held responsible for what’s happening now

If it was totally down to the players and nothing to do with him winning three titles, then it’s totally down to the players and nothing to do with him that we’ve lost four in a row and eight in 14.

His strengths were in identifying players of great talent that other clubs had overlooked and unlocking their potential, any claim to the contrary that Henry was destined to be a world class striker is unfalsifiable.

His strengths were giving that back line of the George Graham era more time in the game than they would otherwise have had.

And then building a new defence as they did retire. Was he directly involved in Ashley Cole’s development.....maybe not but he saw his potential to pick him, he bought in Lauren as the replacement for Dixon. He convinced Sol Campbell to come here, he utilised a midfielder from a club in the Ivory Coast to be his centre back partner.

He relied on the character and drive of other players past and present to win titles.

Does that justify giving him unprecedented power, to ignore all other advice and believe solely in his own counsel. No

But denying he has any strengths?, it’s based on little other than resentment and petulance.

How dare he not fuck off the arrogant cunt. I need to totally disconstruct him.

Precious little you've given him there.

He knew the French football scene better than anyone else here.

He's a good fitness instructor.

He gives young players an opportunity, even though he has no idea how to coach them.

And he shifted Henry from the wing to the centre.

Two of those have long since expired, one could be offset by the fact that while he does give young players a chance, he hardly ever plays them in the proper position. And the final one, sure, he's always been into the fitness aspect and undoubtedly he transformed the club and even English football in that respect.

But in the end, even by your own measure, he has hardly anything going for him as a football coach.

[HCZ]

Big difference between being a football manager and a football coach

Was Ferguson the best coach? Did he individually work with Giggs, Scholes, Beckham to make them what they are

In the end Ferguson didn’t even take training sessions himself

A manager is largely at the end of the day the public face for a team effort. No one achieves it alone, and the main talent of any manager is knowing how to delegate responsibility to others knowing you’re own strengths and weaknesses knowing the strengths and weaknesses of those around you and coordinating it to achieve your vision

What happened with Wenger is that he became everything man manager, coach, scout etc and ended up doing none of these things well.

[Letters]

But in the end, even by your own measure, he has hardly anything going for him as a football coach.
And yet, he took boring boring Arsenal to the most successful period in our modern history playing a style of football which is pretty much the best I've ever seen.
He kept us in the top 4 during a tricky stadium move when finances were restricted and the billionaires were buying their way in to the top table.
And latterly while failing in the biggest competitions he's won 3 FA Cups in 4 years, the last one being just last year.

Does he need to go? Yes. With our resources this failure to compete is not good enough. But let's not pretend that he was never any good. I honestly think it's as simple as he was ahead of his time, but that time was 20 years ago.
I don't understand the need to not only want him out but to deny he was ever any good in the first place. This is the final stage of ZD - acting towards him like you're his bitter ex and claiming you never loved him in the first place.

[Cripps]

Poisoning your colleagues through the by products of chronic flatulence aggravated by eating sprouts isn’t working

I've read that 3 times and I have no idea what you're saying.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Do any of you lot work?

I'm at work now, but I jump on here every now and then :good:

[HCZ]

I've read that 3 times and I have no idea what you're saying.

Eating sprouts and then loudly and violently guffing doesn’t count as working

[KSE Comedy Club]

Precious little you've given him there.

He knew the French football scene better than anyone else here.

He's a good fitness instructor.

He gives young players an opportunity, even though he has no idea how to coach them.

And he shifted Henry from the wing to the centre.

Two of those have long since expired, one could be offset by the fact that while he does give young players a chance, he hardly ever plays them in the proper position. And the final one, sure, he's always been into the fitness aspect and undoubtedly he transformed the club and even English football in that respect.

But in the end, even by your own measure, he has hardly anything going for him as a football coach.
I don't think you are respecting the respectfulness

[Letters]

I'm at work now, but I jump on here every now and then :good:

I'm on here now, but I jump to work every now and then :good:

#publicsector

[Cripps]

Eating sprouts and then loudly and violently guffing doesn’t count as working

Coming from someone that sits and watches an individual until he has a poo.

[KSE Comedy Club]

I'm on here now, but I jump to work every now and then :good:

#publicsector

oh, how the other half live :lol:

[KSE Comedy Club]

Coming from someone that sits and watches an individual until he has a poo.

#pooporn
#dailyshitstream

[Özim]

How many players at the club were there prior to his arrival during the unbeaten season

It’s fair to say this was a team he built himself

As I previously stated those players learnt from the old guard to some extent, they were slowly integrated into an team already full of winners. We saw what happened when Wenger sold the experienced players too quickly.

[Özim]

Big difference between being a football manager and a football coach

Was Ferguson the best coach? Did he individually work with Giggs, Scholes, Beckham to make them what they are

In the end Ferguson didn’t even take training sessions himself

A manager is largely at the end of the day the public face for a team effort. No one achieves it alone, and the main talent of any manager is knowing how to delegate responsibility to others knowing you’re own strengths and weaknesses knowing the strengths and weaknesses of those around you and coordinating it to achieve your vision

What happened with Wenger is that he became everything man manager, coach, scout etc and ended up doing none of these things well.

Ferguson had a massive impact on the team, in terms of motivation, discipline, tactics his impact was obvious, he didn't just let the players play their game, morevover he repeated success regardless of what coach/assistant came in.

Wengers is not so clear, he's not really repeated his success, the failings are also clear as day, even to the average person watching.

[Cripps]

Are we having this debate again? :lol:

When will you lot just give up? :lol:

[Power n Glory]

Fair enough. Adams may have been a good leader on the pitch but a poor one off it - but Ashley wasn't an exception in terms of players that really blossomed under Wenger. It seems childish then to try and downplay the influence Wenger had on player development considering all the success stories back then. I don't think it's fair to to say that Wenger can be held responsible for everything bad that's going on now without also him then being responsible for all the good things in the past.


And I don't think Wenger or the board for that matter gives a fuck about what pundits on TV say. They barely care about the fans as it is.

You're taking a lot credit away from players that say they learned a lot of other players during training. Whenever you listen to players feedback on Wenger, they never go into detail of how he's trained them to be technically ready or how they should play in their position or set up tactically.

We wouldn't be talking about the past if this wasn't relevant to what we see now. If we're saying he hasn't changed much or evolved as a coach, what makes you think Dixon is outright lying about Adam's and Cole?

[Niall_Quinn]

Are we having this debate again? :lol:

When will you lot just give up? :lol:

It has taken a huge effort to get people to the stage where they accept Wenger has to go.

Now they are holding ground by claiming he must be respected and allowed to leave when he fancies it. So that's what has to be smashed next. Everyone needs to play their small part, even if it means going over the same ground repeatedly.

The diehards are still clinging on to whatever is left floating, which isn't much. We're at the stage where they are accusing those trying to force him out as behaving like jilted lovers. Jump in whenever you fancy.

[Letters]

Now they are holding ground by claiming he must be respected and allowed to leave when he fancies it.
No, 'they' aren't. Well, I'm not. He should have left at the end of last season. Arguably before that but last season was his last chance to go with a scrap of dignity intact.
Trying to force him out is not acting like a jilted lover. Pretending you never liked him in the first place and he was always a useless **** is.

[HCZ]

It has taken a huge effort to get people to the stage where they accept Wenger has to go.

Now they are holding ground by claiming he must be respected and allowed to leave when he fancies it. So that's what has to be smashed next. Everyone needs to play their small part, even if it means going over the same ground repeatedly.

The diehards are still clinging on to whatever is left floating, which isn't much. We're at the stage where they are accusing those trying to force him out as behaving like jilted lovers. Jump in whenever you fancy.

I’m pretty sure I wanted Wenger gone even before you did

I still don’t feel the need to revert to revisionism to claim that Wenger was somehow always sub par and that his success was purely serendipity.

Wenger was never a coach, Wenger built a team around the skeleton of George Graham’s team

Somehow these are damning revelations instead of things that were always taken for granted

[Niall_Quinn]

No, 'they' aren't. Well, I'm not. He should have left at the end of last season. Arguably before that but last season was his last chance to go with a scrap of dignity intact.
Trying to force him out is not acting like a jilted lover. Pretending you never liked him in the first place and he was always a useless **** is.

Didn't say I never liked him in the first place. What I've said, for months now, is he's been exposed as a fraud, a con artist, and one of the most selfish men in football. I also said it's him, Wenger himself, that's coming out with claims of how marvellous he is and how indispensable he is and how he's owed something. Why doesn't he shut up about that, I wonder?

[Niall_Quinn]

I’m pretty sure I wanted Wenger gone even before you did

I still don’t feel the need to revert to revisionism to claim that Wenger was somehow always sub par and that his success was purely serendipity.

Wenger was never a coach, Wenger built a team around the skeleton of George Graham’s team

Somehow these are damning revelations instead of things that were always taken for granted

And it is on these revelations, or things we have taken for granted, that the Wengerbots are mounting a last stand. He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?

[Letters]

He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?
Who are you arguing against? Literally no-one on here is arguing that.

[HCZ]

And it is on these revelations, or things we have taken for granted, that the Wengerbots are mounting a last stand. He's been so wonderful he can't possibly be sacked because that would be disrespectful. Haven't we had enough of this lot yet? Haven't they done enough damage?

Which rather feeds into my understanding of why you are doing this

You give these people a rather mystical power to make havoc.

There is only one person responsible from here on in other than Wenger himself for him still being in a job and that is Enos Stanley Kroenke.

Everyone else is irrelevant

[Özim]

I think the view of Wenger was that he was some sort of messiah who produced miracles, hence the reason a lot of Arsenal fans could never imagine life without him and some have clung onto him for dear life, no other manager has be awarded this kind of cult following and frankly if anyone deserves it it's not Wenger.

He did a great job earlier in his career with us, won a few titles whilst producing great football, yes it was fantastic times, but for the greater part of his career with us he's been average and all of his failings have been badly exposed, whilst he was once regarded as a great manager and one of the best around, the reality is whilst the first few years were great circumstances also played a big part and he's not quite as good as people thought, if he had been he'd have done better than he has since 2004 (14 years ago no less).

People have gone on about him like without him we'd be nothing, he's the most amazing thing ever to happen to Arsenal, truth is that's nonsense.

[IBK]

:lol: Fair enough, but Wenger is no Milli Vanilli.
Elvis didn't write his own songs and a lot of people still go nuts about him. His strength was as a singer and performer, not a composer. That doesn't diminish people's admiration of him.

Wenger has strengths and weaknesses like every football manager. Like every human.
Any football manager has a team around him. There's the players of course but people off the pitch too. Dein was clearly influential back in the day. Historically though it has always been the manager who gets the most praise for successes and criticism for failures.

To say he just inherited a good defence is lazy. He did, but that team were nowhere near winning the title when Wenger took over and The Invincibles squad was entirely Wenger's, even if some of them were perhaps influenced by the older generation.
Clough did amazing things at Forest and then oversaw a long, slow decline which ended up in them getting relegated. Relegated! And I have never seen anyone pore over or analyse Clough's early success like this to try and diminish his achievements.

When it's 2003 and you're 5 points clear and you then go on a run of W2 D3 L2 which sees Utd go above us and win the title then of course it's disappointing but you have just won the Double the previous year and we did go on to win the FA Cup. It seems a bit churlish to complain. Or it's 2004 and you've just gone out of the CL and FA Cup in a week but then you beat Liverpool and go on to not only win the league but go through the whole season unbeaten.
That is not the to think "Hang on...shouldn't we have retained the title in that era? Shouldn't we have won a CL with that squad?"
Looking back we can think these things, but that doesn't completely diminish the achievements in that era or mean he was never any good.

Even since the glory days he's kept us in the top 4 till the last couple of seasons. We were possibly an Eduardo leg break away from a title in 2007/8. The last 4 seasons it's been
4th and the FA Cup
3rd and the FA Cup
2nd
5th and the FA Cup

And people are acting like it's the end of days and Wenger is the worst manager in football. A little over-stated, non?
This is our worst ever season under him and we'll probably finish 6th and we got to a Cup final. As I said, Clough took Forest down and was treated far more kindly than Wenger has been.

The only reason I can see to be quite so outraged is if you think that Wenger is not interested in success any more and is only intent on feathering his own and the board's nest. Personally, I don't think that.
He was a man of his time, but that time was 20 years ago. He hasn't moved on, football has. I honestly think it's as simple as that. I think he did pretty well to keep us relatively competitive during the stadium move.
Since the money has been available he's won a few FA Cups but he's failed to challenge for the biggest prizes. So he should go.
I don't think he should be chased down the streets with burning torches though or all his previous achievements pored over so we can try and find a way of crediting someone else for them.

This is a good, considered post.

I really don't think that it makes sense to argue that Wenger has no strengths. Even since his 'heyday', keeping the club in the top 4 with the level of competition in the EPL and restricted spending power between 2005 and 2012/3 is no mean achievement and speaks to a good manager - even if he cannot be said to have been the very best out there during this period. And a good manager has to have strengths. Pretty much every club apart from Manure and perhaps Chelski during this period would have welcomed this consistency.

I think that maybe the real issues with 'revisionism' or legacy stem from resentment/disillusionment at being sold a vision for the club during this period that simply wasn't delivered; being told by the manager of a previously winning club that 4th place equated to a trophy in itself, and lately the stark evidence that Wenger is no longer capable of competing at the very top level. It is frustrating seeing clearly the faults in the manager and the team that AW refuses to acknowledge and is incapable of addressing. And these feelings are causing anger . Where a team is underperforming as badly ours currently is and has done for a season or more, and this is patently down to a manager who has outstayed his usefulness, it is too easy to conclude that he has no strengths at all. The reality is that whatever strengths he had are no longer fit for purpose - not that they didn't exist in the first place.

As for legacy - the current circumstances dictate that AW does not deserve to bask in any kind of glow for his past achievements. I hope that in years to come, when (hopefully) the current pain has receded, this will not always be the case, and he will be judged fairly, even if he is not revered as he would have been if he had left us in better shape than he now will do.

[Niall_Quinn]

Who are you arguing against? Literally no-one on here is arguing that.

Who said I was arguing against anyone here? And yes, literally loads of idiots are arguing that Wenger can't be sacked because it would be disrespectful, or that he can't go until the end of the season because that would be disrespectful. Did you hear that grovelling worm Ollie Holt, for example?

[Niall_Quinn]

This is a good, considered post.

I really don't think that it makes sense to argue that Wenger has no strengths. Even since his 'heyday', keeping the club in the top 4 with the level of competition in the EPL and restricted spending power between 2005 and 2012/3 is no mean achievement and speaks to a good manager - even if he cannot be said to have been the very best out there during this period. And a good manager has to have strengths. Pretty much every club apart from Manure and perhaps Chelski during this period would have welcomed this consistency.

I think that maybe the real issues with 'revisionism' or legacy stem from resentment/disillusionment at being sold a vision for the club during this period that simply wasn't delivered; being told by the manager of a previously winning club that 4th place equated to a trophy in itself, and lately the stark evidence that Wenger is no longer capable of competing at the very top level. It is frustrating seeing clearly the faults in the manager and the team that AW refuses to acknowledge and is incapable of addressing. And these feelings are causing anger . Where a team is underperforming as badly ours currently is and has done for a season or more, and this is patently down to a manager who has outstayed his usefulness, it is too easy to conclude that he has no strengths at all. The reality is that whatever strengths he had are no longer fit for purpose - not that they didn't exist in the first place.

As for legacy - the current circumstances dictate that AW does not deserve to bask in any kind of glow for his past achievements. I hope that in years to come, when (hopefully) the current pain has receded, this will not always be the case, and he will be judged fairly, even if he is not revered as he would have been if he had left us in better shape than he now will do.

He'll be fine once a few years between his departure and a recollecting have passed. For now though, it's us against him. Or it should be. A whole decade of failure and proving by his actions he has no notable strengths, beyond conning the fans and feathering his own nest, and only catastrophic weaknesses is more respect than anyone could ever hope for. No other manager in recent times has been afforded such respect and at such a high cost, in terms of what the bloke is paid, what it costs the fans and the damage it has done to the club. A huge cost. How much more respect does he want? How much more does he think he's owed? It beggars belief that anyone can muster a good word to say about him given his behaviour. In the heat of the fight you don't stop to reminisce with the enemy, you kill him as quickly as possible before he kills you.

There's still a chance we could win this Europa cup thing, if only somebody would have the balls to fuck this Jonas out the door. There's still something that can be rescued from this season if somebody at the club wants to put football and competition first.

And in every nook and every cranny and every corner of the fandom and the Internet and on match days and with any other opportunity to express an opinion, fans need to rally now and force this fucker out. THEN we can be all nice about it. We're such pussies. Here we are, the fucker halfway out the door, and half of us have stopped to coo at his legacy. JHFC!

[Niall_Quinn]

Which rather feeds into my understanding of why you are doing this

You give these people a rather mystical power to make havoc.

There is only one person responsible from here on in other than Wenger himself for him still being in a job and that is Enos Stanley Kroenke.

Everyone else is irrelevant

IF the fans and the media were all sitting on their hands there would be zero crisis at Arsenal and everything would be plodding on as usual. Season after season after season that has been the story. Even when the banners went up they were begging letters to the old git - oh please Mr Wenger, we love you and all, but please, have a think about fucking off! And those holding up the banners were hissed at and spat at and worse. Don't underestimate the power of modern communications to deliver sentiment. We're not helpless at all, we have only been acting that way. You give that board or those Wengerite assholes an inch and they'll spin it into another season or even a contract extension. The fans can't be sitting back and expecting the board to do the right thing. They need to be demanding they do it. And plenty have started to do that. Finally. So I hope nobody accepts your idea that nothing can be done because if they do, nothing will be done.

[Özim]

Watched a documentary about Thierry Henry, in that Adams pretty states that he felt it was his duty to let players know what it meant to play for Arsenal and what it took to win, he said he would let Henry and all the others know, if they weren't performing he would be in their ear, just reinforces the point about the invincibles not just being a Wenger team, they were moulded by those before them, the winners like Adams and the famous back 5/6 amongst others.

Young players learn from the experienced winners in the team and this happened until Wenger destroyed that and dismantled the team too quickly thus robbing the youngsters the opportunity to learn what it takes to win and what is expected by the club, had he kept the likes of Vieira, Henry etc longer instead of cashed in for peanuts things might have turned out differently, of course his philosophy of getting rid of the physical, athletic side of the team also had a big impact.

Anyway the point is Wenger as a manager was good when someone else did half of his job for him, when that stopped it all went wrong highlighting how limited he was.

[fakeyank]

As a stadium it's about a million times better than Highbury. It is soulless - partly because of the lack of history but that can only come about with time. Were the internet around a hundred years ago your great grandfather would probably be whining on it about Highbury and asking what was wrong with South London. The fact that we haven't had a title there is a factor, we haven't had a really successful side since we've been there, things like that create memories.
The fact is we had to do it. We've pondered for years whether Wenger could really compete these days, clearly he can't. I held out hope longer than most but whatever, we're on the same page about that now. But the next chap would be massively hindered in his attempts to do so were we still at Highbury. Every other top club has expanded, moved grounds or is looking to. The fact that we have a fanbase large enough to fill it is pretty much down to Wenger and the success and style of football in the early years. Our average home attendance in 1993/4 was around 30,000, and that year we finished 4th and won the CWC. It was only a few years after the last Graham title.


It's nowhere near good enough, given our resources. But you have to concede that those resources and the fanbase which generates them are in no small part down to Wenger.


It matters because it provides some historic context. We've always been a big club but not since the 1930s were we the best side in the country for a sustained period of time.
I'm not sure what you mean by "pitched up". We won the FA Cup in 1971, 1979 and 1993 before Wenger joined.
We've won it that many times in the previous 4 seasons and everyone is wailing and gnashing their teeth. But that's because our expectations have changed. That level of expectation comes in no small part from Wenger's early time with us. Before that we never had that expectation.
We've pretty much never been properly shite enough to get relegated - but we never had any expectations of a title challenge. Maybe a hope we would but those hopes were generally dashed pretty early in the season. And we were much more erratic. We nearly became "Invincibles" in 1991, two years later it was the height of boring boring Arsenal and while we did win both domestic cups that year our league form was such that at one point I genuinely believed we'd be dragged into a relegation scrap. Our last 27 league games our results were W6 D9 L12. We scored 40 goals in 42 league games. That season we clearly concentrated our efforts on the cups but these days that isn't acceptable, we expect to be competing on all fronts. We didn't expect that before Wenger.

I hope Wenger goes sooner rather than later. Every season - it's getting to the stage where it's every match - further damages his legacy and reputation. But I hope when he goes and the smoke clears people will remember the good times. My happiest memories of Arsenal are from his time with us, most people's are. Clough took Forest down in the end and I think he's still regarded as a Forest hero, all Wenger's done is failed to sustain the early success and is now not even able to maintain his record of keeping us in the top 4.

Like any manager he has strengths and weaknesses. Those strengths revolutionised us as a club and it revolutionised the game over here. It brought us a sack of trophies and a level and style of football I never thought I'd see Arsenal ascend to. Those weaknesses failed to make the most of one of the great squads in English club history - he never won the CL, he never retained a title. Other clubs have caught up and now surpassed us. But while top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, keeping us in there, and the FA Cups, show Wenger hasn't got everything wrong. I just wish he'd gone at the end of last season, that was his last chance to be applauded out the door.

:gp:

I despise Wenger as much as anyone down the block and will rant on social media that his legacy is completely fucked. But once the smoke clears, I'd like to think that I'll remember him fondly too.

On a side note, even George W Bush is remembered positively these days.

[HCZ]

IF the fans and the media were all sitting on their hands there would be zero crisis at Arsenal and everything would be plodding on as usual. Season after season after season that has been the story. Even when the banners went up they were begging letters to the old git - oh please Mr Wenger, we love you and all, but please, have a think about fucking off! And those holding up the banners were hissed at and spat at and worse. Don't underestimate the power of modern communications to deliver sentiment. We're not helpless at all, we have only been acting that way. You give that board or those Wengerite assholes an inch and they'll spin it into another season or even a contract extension. The fans can't be sitting back and expecting the board to do the right thing. They need to be demanding they do it. And plenty have started to do that. Finally. So I hope nobody accepts your idea that nothing can be done because if they do, nothing will be done.

And I hope no one comes up with your idea that the most positive way to do anything is to vent your spleen in front of a handful of people on a message board deconstructing Wengers Years of success.

Plus who are you convincing? You can’t even convince me and I already want Wenger gone.

I don’t want him given a nice send off, I want him gone yesterday so that we have people come in and can assesss which of the squad is salvageable and which is expendable in the next 11 games before the end of the season.

I don’t need to buy your narrative that Wenger has always been sub par to think this. So again tell me what you are doing apart from finding an outlet for your own sense of frustration.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Watched a documentary about Thierry Henry, in that Adams pretty states that he felt it was his duty to let players know what it meant to play for Arsenal and what it took to win, he said he would let Henry and all the others know, if they weren't performing he would be in their ear, just reinforces the point about the invincibles not just being a Wenger team, they were moulded by those before them, the winners like Adams and the famous back 5/6 amongst others.

Young players learn from the experienced winners in the team and this happened until Wenger destroyed that and dismantled the team too quickly thus robbing the youngsters the opportunity to learn what it takes to win and what is expected by the club, had he kept the likes of Vieira, Henry etc longer instead of cashed in for peanuts things might have turned out differently, of course his philosophy of getting rid of the physical, athletic side of the team also had a big impact.

Anyway the point is Wenger as a manager was good when someone else did half of his job for him, when that stopped it all went wrong highlighting how limited he was.

This is how I feel on the subject as well.

Wenger had the insight to bring the knowledge of good diet and excercise to the table and discover unknown talents, but the last 12 years have shown that he doesn't have it in his locker to sustain a top winning team.

[Niall_Quinn]

And I hope no one comes up with your idea that the most positive way to do anything is to vent your spleen in front of a handful of people on a message board deconstructing Wengers Years of success.

Plus who are you convincing? You can’t even convince me and I already want Wenger gone.

I don’t want him given a nice send off, I want him gone yesterday so that we have people come in and can assesss which of the squad is salvageable and which is expendable in the next 11 games before the end of the season.

I don’t need to buy your narrative that Wenger has always been sub par to think this. So again tell me what you are doing apart from finding an outlet for your own sense of frustration.

I'm communicating. On the Internet.

And why do you think I'm trying to convince you of something? I'm talking about the dickheads who are still Wenger drones. They know who they are.

[HCZ]

I'm communicating. On the Internet.

And why do you think I'm trying to convince you of something? I'm talking about the dickheads who are still Wenger drones. They know who they are.

Where are they here?

Because if they aren’t here you’re communicating with no one

[Niall_Quinn]

Where are they here?

Because if they aren’t here you’re communicating with no one

Really. That's how the Internet works is it?

[HCZ]

Really. That's how the Internet works is it?

Generally the spread of any form of information or communication is incumbent on your intended recipient reading it

[Niall_Quinn]

Generally the spread of any form of information or communication is incumbent on your intended recipient reading it

It's much better to let others tell them. Far more effective. People don't read these days anyway, they watch video. They watch people saying stuff in videos.

[Cripps]

Will you two get a room?

[HCZ]

It's much better to let others tell them. Far more effective. People don't read these days anyway, they watch video. They watch people saying stuff in videos.

Bit of a generalisation. I read plenty

Not everything you write which suggests maybe you’re using the wrong format

Or you are ranting

[HCZ]

Will you two get a room?

And who exactly is paying for that ?

[Power n Glory]

:lol: Fair enough, but Wenger is no Milli Vanilli.
Elvis didn't write his own songs and a lot of people still go nuts about him. His strength was as a singer and performer, not a composer. That doesn't diminish people's admiration of him.

But nobody claimed Elvis was a great song writer and neither did he. That's the difference. Wenger is getting the praise for everything and taking the credit whilst those that had a major influence are being written out.

[Goonermerree]

:gp:

I despise Wenger as much as anyone down the block and will rant on social media that his legacy is completely fucked. But once the smoke clears, I'd like to think that I'll remember him fondly too.

On a side note, even George W Bush is remembered positively these days.

Because they're comparing him to Trump

[Globalgunner]

The Elephant in the room in that we are in relegation form. If not for the 40 or more points accrued on the back of Sanchez. where the tuck would we be right now. Again it points to the fact that Wenger only succeeds when others are doing the heavy lifting for him.
Has he always a shit manager. I certainly think so. Left to his own devices he will relegate us next season. Is there anyone who still doubts that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Bit of a generalisation. I read plenty

Not everything you write which suggests maybe you’re using the wrong format

Or you are ranting

Of course it's a generalisation. I'm not going to go through the phone book and say yes, he watches video, no, he's one of those book readers. That's why we have generalisations, saves time. Internet opinions are picked up from everywhere, a bit here, a bit there. And people (generally FFS) tend to seek out stuff that reinforces their opinion. And then this gets rolled in and passed on, from leaf to twig to branch to trunk to forest. GW's not as closed a shop as you might think.

[Niall_Quinn]

But nobody claimed Elvis was a great song writer and neither did he. That's the difference. Wenger is getting the praise for everything and taking the credit whilst those that had a major influence are being written out.

Just let him have his Wenger fantasies. He seems to need them.

[HCZ]

Wenger had taken over a club where which had enjoyed recent success but at the same time wasn’t in danger of challenging for top honours in the near future, we had under Rioch qualified for the UEFA cup on the last day of the season with the Bergkamp brace against Bolton and that was considered a big deal (I was still a kid but I do remember that game)

People that want to nullify anyone else’s impact are as guilty of rewriting history as those who consider Wenger a peripheral figure. We know that Marc Overmars and Manu Petit were bought practically by Danny Fiszman.

Of course we know that the success was a fusion of the experience and leadership of the old guard combined with Wenger bringing into the club players that people hadn’t even heard of or were not reaching their potential at the club we bought them from.

We know that the Wenger and Dein partnership was almost as pivotal to the club’s success as the partnership between Clough and Peter Taylor at Derby and Forest. We know that Pat Rice was kept on as asssistant manager because he was more likely to be a bawler than Wenger (you used to hear Rice shouting not aggressively but assertively at players in pre match warm ups when I used to go to Highbury)

But what happened slowly was that Dein left, Edelman left and Fiszman died and Wenger was allowed to build an unquestionable power base for himself in that vacuum. Because Wenger was only consulting with himself coaches were going more and more unheeded and there was no one with the authority to persuade him or make him listen.

That’s why Wenger became almost unsackable, who was going to do it? For all the power Ferguson had at United he still had to answer to those at the top, Wenger has had to answer to no one. And whilst the club was getting its beloved top four finishes no sense in questioning that (and sadly had we not fallen outside the top four last season this would still be the case)

Wenger is just a case of someone corrupted by his own sense of hype his arrogance in interviews Make it clear he is someone not used to being scrutinised or questioned and it rankles him and he calls it disrespectful. But I think it’s partly human nature, it’s easy to live in a bubble when people around you tell you how wonderful you are. Your ego becomes so inflated that anyone who bursts your bubble is a complete cunt.

Thatcher had arguably lost it years before she was finally shoved out, and in the months before her own MPs nobbled her she would come out with how she was going to fight the next general election and go on and on and on. Power makes you deaf to reason.

[HCZ]

The question is now....who gets to be Michael Heseltine?

[Niall_Quinn]

Explains what happened to Letters.

[HCZ]

Explains what happened to Letters.

That’s absurd and unfair

Letters never achieved success either under his own steam or with help from anyone else

[Letters]

But nobody claimed Elvis was a great song writer and neither did he. That's the difference. Wenger is getting the praise for everything and taking the credit whilst those that had a major influence are being written out.

The manager generally gets the praise for the successes and criticism for the failures.
Such is the lot of a football manager.
The truth is that any manager has a team around him both on and off the field.
But the buck stops with the manager and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim about any other manager that success just happened around them despite their ineptitude.

[Niall_Quinn]

The manager generally gets the praise for the successes and criticism for the failures.
Such is the lot of a football manager.
The truth is that any manager has a team around him both on and off the field.
But the buck stops with the manager and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim about any other manager that success just happened around them despite their ineptitude.

No other manager can be compared to Wenger now - for all the wrong reasons. A drunken Clough is the closest we can seem to get. Maybe it has happened in the distant past, but no modern manager has hijacked a football club and made it all about himself like Wenger has. Not for so long anyway. Not even Maureen has managed it.

[Power n Glory]

The manager generally gets the praise for the successes and criticism for the failures.
Such is the lot of a football manager.
The truth is that any manager has a team around him both on and off the field.
But the buck stops with the manager and I don’t think I’ve ever seen anyone claim about any other manager that success just happened around them despite their ineptitude.

Before we stray too far and start talking in general terms, we're talking about a very specific example. This whole issue about Dixon, Adams and Cole came about through the leaked audio of Bellerin saying he's not learning much from the coaches at AFC and the leaked info from the players meeting from the City game. Praise for results and trophies isn't what I'm talking about.

People are perplexed by the development of our young players and wonder why they're all so bang average but have a hard time accepting the answer when it arrives. Dixon wasn't just throwing jabs towards Wenger, he was looking at the team today and using his own experience to help explain why we're so poor defensively. He even said Bould's time working with the defenders has been cut back. Wright has said the same thing. There are several accounts of players saying the old English players played a huge part in their development when first coming over to England. Yet you ask why this information is important and people claim this is revisionism. Most fans are ignorant to what's really happening behind the scenes so it baffles me how they're able to refute what Dixon saw and simply chalk it up to bitterness.

[HCZ]

In fairness has anyone here actually taken issue with what Dixon said?

[Niall_Quinn]

In fairness has anyone here actually taken issue with what Dixon said?

Not directly. But if the trend is followed, Dixon will be receiving his ban from Wenger any time now.

The fact is, the Wenger fraud has been so thoroughly exposed because of the time this dickhead hung on. He could have left and got away with it. Now people know, even though many still want to defend him even as their club sinks beneath the waves because of him. Self hating fans I suppose.

[Power n Glory]

In fairness has anyone here actually taken issue with what Dixon said?

TEG

Also, yourself and IBK mentioned something about 'revisionism' stemming from disillusionment. I disagree. People maybe revising their opinion on Wenger and his contribution and maybe more accepting of this new information because of what we're seeing now, but regardless of the state of the club, this is still new information from Dixon shouldn't be dismissed. Heck, people once thought the world was flat.

[HCZ]

TEG

Also, yourself and IBK mentioned something about 'revisionism' stemming from disillusionment. I disagree. People maybe revising their opinion on Wenger and his contribution and maybe more accepting of this new information because of what we're seeing now, but regardless of the state of the club, this is still new information from Dixon shouldn't be dismissed. Heck, people once thought the world was flat.

So you’ve basically inferred...I see

Never mind that I’ve said several times that Lee Dixon said nothing that was of any real surprise to me. Wenger is not a coach, Adams said it and Dixon said it....we know that coaching defending doesn’t even really happen much at Arsenal

The point I am referring to is the inference that Wenger lucked out somehow and all this came about for him and he was the witness beneficiary.

That’s the kind of revisionism i am referring to, that somehow he’s always been shit and what’s happening is him being exposed as some kind of Charlatan.

My point is like any manager you don’t achieve things by yourself but more as the figurehead of the combined and collective efforts of yourself and others.

And where Wenger has gone wrong is believing that it is all down to him.

[Power n Glory]

So you’ve basically inferred...I see

Never mind that I’ve said several times that Lee Dixon said nothing that was of any real surprise to me. Wenger is not a coach, Adams said it and Dixon said it....we know that coaching defending doesn’t even really happen much at Arsenal

The point I am referring to is the inference that Wenger lucked out somehow and all this came about for him and he was the witness beneficiary.

That’s the kind of revisionism i am referring to, that somehow he’s always been shit and what’s happening is him being exposed as some kind of Charlatan.

My point is like any manager you don’t achieve things by yourself but more as the figurehead of the combined and collective efforts of yourself and others.

And where Wenger has gone wrong is believing that it is all down to him.

If you read that again, I never said you had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. I said TEG had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. You don't have to repeat your stance.

Also, the point I was making about 'revisionism' is that it doesn't have to stem from disillusionment. People changing their opinion on him in light of recent information isn't something I'd class as rewriting history. Some of it's a bit extreme. He's not a complete fraud. But at one point we all thought Wenger could turn water into wine and it was mostly him and he'd be able to duplicate the same success with anyone.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Not directly. But if the trend is followed, Dixon will be receiving his ban from Wenger any time now.

The fact is, the Wenger fraud has been so thoroughly exposed because of the time this dickhead hung on. He could have left and got away with it. Now people know, even though many still want to defend him even as their club sinks beneath the waves because of him. Self hating fans I suppose.

Don’t worry, they’ll get it eventually.

Look at what happened with Jimmy Saville :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

If you read that again, I never said you had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. I said TEG had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. You don't have to repeat your stance.

Also, the point I was making about 'revisionism' is that it doesn't have to stem from disillusionment. People changing their opinion on him in light of recent information isn't something I'd class as rewriting history. Some of it's a bit extreme. He's not a complete fraud. But at one point we all thought Wenger could turn water into wine and it was mostly him and he'd be able to duplicate the same success with anyone.

I've revised my stance on him based on the shitty way he's treated the fans over the last few seasons. And then that led to me looking at how shitty he's treated the fans since the stadium farce, always coming down on the side of the scalpers and defending them to the hilt. And then, he doesn't even spend the money he's raked in. But that share price goes up and up and Stan's investment balloons. Stan gets what he wants, loot, Wenger gets what he wants, power. A nice little arrangement run contrary to the interests of the club as a sporting entity and pissing a constant stream of lies into the faces of the fans. And then that led me to dig into everything and review it again, all those things that were taken for granted because success is, after all, success. It was all set against the bizarre contrast between his supposed genius and his abject incompetence. I mean, how can there be a divergence that severe? Which is why I wondered about his mental state, it's the only possible explanation. Apart form one other - the explanation people are now calling revisionism. If it's the truth then that's all that matters. We'll know more once he's gone. There will be the initial stream of tributes and after that has died down we'll hear more. I think what some of the Wenger crowd are doing now is trying to shut down that possibility. They have accepted he has to go but they want to ensure the story surrounding the departure and the legacy thereafter is carefully stage managed and preserved. I don't know why that's so important to them. Does anyone try to rewrite the book on Bergkamp or Henry? Not that I've noticed. No need to. They delivered.

[HCZ]

If you read that again, I never said you had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. I said TEG had a problem with what Lee Dixon said. You don't have to repeat your stance.

Also, the point I was making about 'revisionism' is that it doesn't have to stem from disillusionment. People changing their opinion on him in light of recent information isn't something I'd class as rewriting history. Some of it's a bit extreme. He's not a complete fraud. But at one point we all thought Wenger could turn water into wine and it was mostly him and he'd be able to duplicate the same success with anyone.

Did we?

Even during the unbeaten season I knew Wenger wasn’t the best tactical manager, and if I didn’t know we had the commentators even back then talk about our lack of a plan B.

We knew that in the summer transfer Windows Wenger had the tendency not to try and build upon the success.

Was it treasonable for me to talk about the things that frustrated me about him when 606 was in operation?. No because I did. Would I have been ridiculed for saying he should go? Yes but I didn’t start thinking he should go consistently until 2011

People loved Wenger for the titles and the style of football, they loved that he did it with little spend whilst Ferguson was shelling out millions. But there was always the feeling that he lacked Ferguson’s guile.

[Power n Glory]

I've revised my stance on him based on the shitty way he's treated the fans over the last few seasons. And then that led to me looking at how shitty he's treated the fans since the stadium farce, always coming down on the side of the scalpers and defending them to the hilt. And then, he doesn't even spend the money he's raked in. But that share price goes up and up and Stan's investment balloons. Stan gets what he wants, loot, Wenger gets what he wants, power. A nice little arrangement run contrary to the interests of the club as a sporting entity and pissing a constant stream of lies into the faces of the fans. And then that led me to dig into everything and review it again, all those things that were taken for granted because success is, after all, success. It was all set against the bizarre contrast between his supposed genius and his abject incompetence. I mean, how can there be a divergence that severe? Which is why I wondered about his mental state, it's the only possible explanation. Apart form one other - the explanation people are now calling revisionism. If it's the truth then that's all that matters. We'll know more once he's gone. There will be the initial stream of tributes and after that has died down we'll hear more. I think what some of the Wenger crowd are doing now is trying to shut down that possibility. They have accepted he has to go but they want to ensure the story surrounding the departure and the legacy thereafter is carefully stage managed and preserved. I don't know why that's so important to them. Does anyone try to rewrite the book on Bergkamp or Henry? Not that I've noticed. No need to. They delivered.

The same. The more I thought about the self sustaining model Wenger kept promoting whilst watching his actions in the transfer market, the more it pissed me off. Listening to him back the season ticket price hikes and telling the fans that it was necessary to help us compete on the transfer market was the last straw. That money was paid out to Kroenke as a consultancy fee.

Too many examples of him choosing self preservation over what is best for the club and fans.

[Letters]

It was all set against the bizarre contrast between his supposed genius and his abject incompetence. I mean, how can there be a divergence that severe?
There hasn't been one.

If he was as brilliant as we once thought then that side back in the day would have retained the title, won a CL. A club side that good really should have. His weaknesses were always there, looking back, just harder to notice when the trophies keep coming and the level of football is so good.
But if he's as incompetent as some now suppose then we wouldn't have been anywhere near the top 4 for the last decade and we certainly wouldn't have won 3 FA Cups in 4 years.
Even Dixon in his "scathing attack" said:

"It would be wrong to say Arsene doesn't know what he's doing, but he's floundering now as everyone has caught up.

Which is pretty much how I see it. He was ahead of his time but that time was 20 years ago. People have caught up and overtaken us.
The problem isn't that he has radically changed, but that he hasn't while football has around him.

[HCZ]

The same. The more I thought about the self sustaining model Wenger kept promoting whilst watching his actions in the transfer market, the more it pissed me off. Listening to him back the season ticket price hikes and telling the fans that it was necessary to help us compete on the transfer market was the last straw. That money was paid out to Kroenke as a consultancy fee.

Too many examples of him choosing self preservation over what is best for the club and fans.

That’s more an argument as to whether he’s a selfish prick who puts himself before the club

There’s no argument to be had there, he definitely is

[Niall_Quinn]

There hasn't been one.

If he was as brilliant as we once thought then that side back in the day would have retained the title, won a CL. A club side that good really should have. His weaknesses were always there, looking back, just harder to notice when the trophies keep coming and the level of football is so good.
But if he's as incompetent as some now suppose then we wouldn't have been anywhere near the top 4 for the last decade and we certainly wouldn't have won 3 FA Cups in 4 years.
Even Dixon in his "scathing attack" said:

"It would be wrong to say Arsene doesn't know what he's doing, but he's floundering now as everyone has caught up.

Which is pretty much how I see it. He was ahead of his time but that time was 20 years ago. People have caught up and overtaken us.
The problem isn't that he has radically changed, but that he hasn't while football has around him.

You asked almost the exact thing earlier in the day and then ignored the answers. Now you are asking it again. I hate it when you do that.

Dixon's right, Wenger does know what he's doing. He's floundering. Got outfoxed by that Swedish landlord and his pub team, didn't he? He gets outfoxed by anyone who can bear watching us for more than 2 minutes.

[Letters]

I see Wenger as a Ray Harryhausen in a world of CGI.
But that doesn't mean that he wasn't brilliant in his day.
Neither does it mean that he alone was the reason for our success. No football manager is.

[Özim]

So you’ve basically inferred...I see

Never mind that I’ve said several times that Lee Dixon said nothing that was of any real surprise to me. Wenger is not a coach, Adams said it and Dixon said it....we know that coaching defending doesn’t even really happen much at Arsenal

The point I am referring to is the inference that Wenger lucked out somehow and all this came about for him and he was the witness beneficiary.

That’s the kind of revisionism i am referring to, that somehow he’s always been shit and what’s happening is him being exposed as some kind of Charlatan.

My point is like any manager you don’t achieve things by yourself but more as the figurehead of the combined and collective efforts of yourself and others.

And where Wenger has gone wrong is believing that it is all down to him.

No manager achieves everything himself obviously however, many of the ingredients Wenger has required for those success are things which a top manager should be able to provide, tactics, motivation, adequate training to name just a few, you make it sound like Wengers weaknesses are your standard weaknesses any manager has.

The point is the evidence shows that Wenger is not a great manager because when push came to shove and he got rid of all the leaders and experienced players too quickly the successes dried up. A decent manager would have identified that and done something about it, well over a decade has passed and he still hasn't twigged. That's ignoring the fact he doesn't have a clue about defending and refuses to sign players anyone with half a brain would have signed by now, all things that make him an average manager.

[Özim]

Did we?

Even during the unbeaten season I knew Wenger wasn’t the best tactical manager, and if I didn’t know we had the commentators even back then talk about our lack of a plan B.

We knew that in the summer transfer Windows Wenger had the tendency not to try and build upon the success.

Was it treasonable for me to talk about the things that frustrated me about him when 606 was in operation?. No because I did. Would I have been ridiculed for saying he should go? Yes but I didn’t start thinking he should go consistently until 2011

People loved Wenger for the titles and the style of football, they loved that he did it with little spend whilst Ferguson was shelling out millions. But there was always the feeling that he lacked Ferguson’s guile.

People definitely thought he was some sort of messiah a magician doing something noone else could possibly do yes.

Oh only Wenger could achieve what he has with so little money, it's not his fault the board are throwing him under the bus they won't give him money, he's been unlucky with injuries, players have betrayed him after he made them what they are, in Wenger we trust, who can replace Wenger, we can't spend money like the other clubs they're cheating their way to trophies etc, it's the owners fault not Wengers, look at what Wenger did 10 years ago, where would Arsenal be without Wenger etc etc all kinds excuses we've heard for his incompetence.

I remember all the excuses for his failings, oh he has no money, people looking for any kind of excuse for his failings, he's not really challenged for one of the big trophies for years and yet he's still here, up until a year and a half ago barely anyone dared say a bad word about him, even last season when people tried they as good as got lynched.

He's got some some of cult following where people thought he could do no wrong and nothing was his fault, even today you still get people saying he deserves this he deserves that, yet his last major success was 14 years ago, he's failed time and time again in the CL, spent most of his career with us unsuccessful and is totally ruining the club.

You make it sound like we all knew he wasn't a great manager, I don't that's the case at all, up until recent years most of the fans thought he was some sort of miracle worker, even when we were getting hammered by our supposed rivals, they hailed 4th place as some sort of mega achievement (much like Wenger), the reality is he's been doing a poor job for a long time and he is limited as a manager.

His achievements were fantastic in the early day no doubt about that, but in the lat 14 years they've been average and any manager at any other top club would have lost their job probably about 10 years ago had they done what he ha.

[Letters]

I don't think an average manager would have kept us top 4 for so long or won 3 FA Cups in 4 years.
But if he was quite as good as we thought back in the day he'd have achieved more over the last decade.

[Özim]

I'm not sure I agree, other clubs have chopped an changed and their managers have not been able to build like he has, when they've underperformed for half a season even they've been sacked, whereas he's really had no pressure on that front.

The clubs below us have generally not been able to attract the same calibre of player as they weren't in the CL, as it turns out (as we're seeing now) once you miss out it's quite hard to get back into the top 4, but if you are in the to 4 it's not too hard to stay there every season.

The uncertainty in those other clubs didn't help them, thing is though those clubs wanted to win major trophies, top 4 was not really the target so their managers would get sacked rather quickly, I also think the pressure on managers at other clubs made a big difference, when under pressure it becomes harder to deliver, Wenger hasn't had any of that from the board, he's been able to live in his own little bubble.

[LDG]

Actually his key weakness is his refusal to entertain anybody else's ideas. His dictatorship over everything is his downfall.

It's like any manager in any organisation in the world. You can't do it all, therefore you delegate responsibility with clear instruction as to what you would like them to do, and retain the things you are good at.

It's not a failure for him to turn around to a defensive coach and ask them to get the team disciplined.

Nobody is perfect, and in my eyes, he deserves credit for his successes as a manager, and equally criticism for his failures. That he refuses point blank to admit his failures is what is bringing him down, and has done for years now. If he's admitted and acknowledged his failures ten years ago, and accepted the assistance (offered willingly I'm sure) from his allies, he probably wouldn't be in this shitstorm now.

He could salvage something this year if he threw some money and thought into the equation. He just needs to ask Bould to organise his defence for him. Listen to his critics and take it on the chin. His time is up, but if I was him, back to the wall, I'd use my considerable influence at the club to get a fucking crew of people who know what they're doing, to do the job for him......

[Letters]

You say that once you're in the top 4 it's not too hard to stay there. Who else has done it so consistently? It's not as easy as it looks, there's not much margin for error.
But I agree that Wenger was a bit too pleased with himself about it and the board didn't put much pressure on to achieve much more.

[Power n Glory]

Did we?

Even during the unbeaten season I knew Wenger wasn’t the best tactical manager, and if I didn’t know we had the commentators even back then talk about our lack of a plan B.

We knew that in the summer transfer Windows Wenger had the tendency not to try and build upon the success.

Was it treasonable for me to talk about the things that frustrated me about him when 606 was in operation?. No because I did. Would I have been ridiculed for saying he should go? Yes but I didn’t start thinking he should go consistently until 2011

People loved Wenger for the titles and the style of football, they loved that he did it with little spend whilst Ferguson was shelling out millions. But there was always the feeling that he lacked Ferguson’s guile.

Now that's revisionism. Maybe you're the odd one out, but the reason most of us were comfortable with certain players leaving and having such high hopes for project youth and the whole stadium move came back to holding a high opinion of Wenger's management skills.

Take the tactics out of the equation, he never was a great tactician but there was always a belief that he was the absolute best at developing players. That's the water to wine and I'm talking about.

Also, commentators weren't talking about a lack of a plan B during the Highbury years.

[Özim]

You say that once you're in the top 4 it's not too hard to stay there. Who else has done it so consistently? It's not as easy as it looks, there's not much margin for error.
But I agree that Wenger was a bit too pleased with himself about it and the board didn't put much pressure on to achieve much more.

Man U, Chelsea, Man City and now Spurs are starting too and Liverpool look like they will too (obviously not all van be in the top 4 but all of those sides will challenge to get into the top for and one of them may drop out and swap with the other from one season to the other but it will pretty much remain the same).

All of those teams are building teams though, I think there's a psychological thing about top 4 and those clubs are maybe starting to get over that, especially now they seem to have a more stable setup (which clearly plays it's part).

[HCZ]

Now that's revisionism. Maybe you're the odd one out, but the reason most of us were comfortable with certain players leaving and having such high hopes for project youth and the whole stadium move came back to holding a high opinion of Wenger's management skills.

Take the tactics out of the equation, he never was a great tactician but there was always a belief that he was the absolute best at developing players. That's the water to wine and I'm talking about.

Also, commentators weren't talking about a lack of a plan B during the Highbury years.

I think Wenger did make players better for quite a time. Did that mean he necessarily coached them individually to improve them....no. I have no doubt that Adams et al gave them the understanding of what it was to play for Arsenal. And in terms of defensive players I would say it’s pretty obvious that Wenger wouldn’t have an idea of how to improve them.

But the thing that Wenger did wasn’t complicated but he earmarked players with talent and gave them the confidence and self belief to either fast track their own development or rebuild their careers.

It’s said of Wenger that he believes his players are adults and they need to be given the freedom to work things out for themselves.

In a heavily tactical game where players work to specific game plans “listen to the calling of your heart” is probably not the kind of coaching or non coaching that works anymore.

Lee Dixon said on Monday - he never stopped and told you what you were doing wrong. Now I think that statement should be taken as Lee Dixon intended it as an observation not a criticism. There were certain things he was strict about like drinking and eating sweets but more with the younger players.

That just happens to be his style, and it’s wrong now

[Cripps]

Arsenal Holdings PLC share price at a record high on the NEX Exchange of £33,500. A year ago they were worth around £17,250 each.

[Özim]

I don't get it, we're as bad as we've even been and yet our shares are at their highest? Wengers' definitely not going to leave now, it seems to me he doesn't have to do anything to make the club money, the shares seem to go up regardless of how bad we are.

[Power n Glory]

I think Wenger did make players better for quite a time. Did that mean he necessarily coached them individually to improve them....no. I have no doubt that Adams et al gave them the understanding of what it was to play for Arsenal. And in terms of defensive players I would say it’s pretty obvious that Wenger wouldn’t have an idea of how to improve them.

But the thing that Wenger did wasn’t complicated but he earmarked players with talent and gave them the confidence and self belief to either fast track their own development or rebuild their careers.

It’s said of Wenger that he believes his players are adults and they need to be given the freedom to work things out for themselves.

In a heavily tactical game where players work to specific game plans “listen to the calling of your heart” is probably not the kind of coaching or non coaching that works anymore.

I think you're missing the point. In the early years, early 2000, late 90s, were you saying what you've just said today? Was Adams and Co getting as much credit for coaching the defence?

[Letters]

Take the tactics out of the equation, he never was a great tactician but there was always a belief that he was the absolute best at developing players. That's the water to wine and I'm talking about.

I think that is fair point. Back in the day it was the accepted wisdom that Wenger was peerless at spotting talent and developing players.
I think the first part of that has some merit, his knowledge of the worldwide game was unparalleled when he arrived.
As for developing players, the assumption is that the manager should be credited with that. The influence of senior players is neglected.
Did Wenger develop Henry from a winger into a world class striker? The least you can say is Wenger saw potential in him and gave him the chace to develop.

I do think that Wenger was the reason that certain players came to Arsenal, I think latterly he has become the reason certain players leave.
As someone (possibly you) said, not many people are as good at their job in their 60s as they were in their 40s, and I think LDG is right about is dictatorship which is often a feature of people who have been in a position of power for too long.

[Letters]

Man U, Chelsea, Man City and now Spurs are starting too and Liverpool look like they will too.
Man Utd finished 6th last season
Chelsea finished 10th the year before.

[Özim]

Man Utd finished 6th last season
Chelsea finished 10th the year before.

That's one season though, there's always the chance a club will have one season out of the top 4, on the whole though they'll be there or thereabouts, usually when they drop out they bring in some top players to bring them back in.

[HCZ]

I think you're missing the point. In the early years, early 2000, late 90s, were you saying what you've just said today? Was Adams and Co getting as much credit for coaching the defence?

We had massive defensive frailties even back then and were criticised for it, as much as we were criticised for lacking a killer instinct.

Take for instance the season before the unbeaten season

Away from home we only won about half the games where we scored the first goal

We conceded quite a few goals and there was mention even that far back about our “soft underbelly”

What Wenger was given credit for was creating a new centre back partnership between Campbell and Toure.

What I’m questioning is the narrative that somehow we were considered the best thing ever back then. We were at times and we were very often quickly knocked off our pedestal.

The season before we did it Wenger was ridiculed for saying a side could go through the season unbeaten, and he received a lot of flack a season after winning the double and making claims that we were the new dominant force in English football that we couldn’t retain our title despite being five points clear in February/March.

[Power n Glory]

We had massive defensive frailties even back then and were criticised for it, as much as we were criticised for lacking a killer instinct.

Take for instance the season before the unbeaten season

Away from home we only won about half the games where we scored the first goal

We conceded quite a few goals and there was mention even that far back about our “soft underbelly”

What Wenger was given credit for was creating a new centre back partnership between Campbell and Toure.

What I’m questioning is the narrative that somehow we were considered the best thing ever back then. We were at times and we were very often quickly knocked off our pedestal.

The season before we did it Wenger was ridiculed for saying a side could go through the season unbeaten, and he received a lot of flack a season after winning the double and making claims that we were the new dominant force in English football that we couldn’t retain our title despite being five points clear in February/March.

You're still missing the point somehow. Even Letters gets the point I'm making. Most of the weaknesses in the team back then were payed at the players feet. The fans hardly ever questioned Wenger's ability. To argue he wasn't that highly regarded back then is what I'd call rivisionism. If you didn't hold him to a high regard in the 90s/2000s...maybe you're an odd case. But the general consensus was that as long as Wenger is at the helm we'd be a great team.

[Marc Overmars]

Back then it was said a lot that he’d have a job for life and not many would have argued given the quality he was able to deliver.

[HCZ]

You're still missing the point somehow. Even Letters gets the point I'm making. Most of the weaknesses in the team back then were payed at the players feet. The fans hardly ever questioned Wenger's ability. To argue he wasn't that highly regarded back then is what I'd call rivisionism. If you didn't hold him to a high regard in the 90s/2000s...maybe you're an odd case. But the general consensus was that as long as Wenger is at the helm we'd be a great team.

To use an old expression you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time

I’m not for a second saying fans didn’t think that of Wenger. I don’t remember saying fans felt we could have done better with someone else. What I’m saying is that the presumed infallibility did not exist in the way you’re saying

Fans loved him of course, they wanted him as manager of course, they would sing his name at grounds of course. I did as well but being critical and getting frustrated with him doesn’t preclude any of the above. Because it happened

I know that today we live in an age of demagogues and demons where to people someone is either the best thing ever or the scum of the earth. But believe it or not things were slightly more nuanced. Anyone who said Wenger should go would of course be the subject of ridicule, but saying “I wish he’d do this” or “I wish he wouldn’t do that” was commonplace

The players did get the blame but Wenger was blamed for picking the players

Before I had to create a new profile which much maligned defender was in my picture....I remember him being used countless times as an example that Wenger had a bit of a blind spot going with defenders.

[Letters]

Even Letters gets the point I'm making.

Even? :sarcy:

[HCZ]

Back then it was said a lot that he’d have a job for life and not many would have argued given the quality he was able to deliver.

Absolutely

And at the time of 2004, I don’t think there were many Arsenal fans who were anything but happy about that prospect

But there are degrees

Him being loved and fans wanting him to stay at the club as long as he wanted, didn’t make him beyond reproach

[Power n Glory]

To use an old expression you can walk and chew bubblegum at the same time

I’m not for a second saying fans didn’t think that of Wenger. I don’t remember saying fans felt we could have done better with someone else. What I’m saying is that the presumed infallibility did not exist in the way you’re saying

Fans loved him of course, they wanted him as manager of course, they would sing his name at grounds of course. I did as well but being critical and getting frustrated with him doesn’t preclude any of the above. Because it happened

I know that today we live in an age of demagogues and demons where to people someone is either the best thing ever or the scum of the earth. But believe it or not things were slightly more nuanced. Anyone who said Wenger should go would of course be the subject of ridicule, but saying “I wish he’d do this” or “I wish he wouldn’t do that” was commonplace

The players did get the blame but Wenger was blamed for picking the players

Before I had to create a new profile which much maligned defender was in my picture....I remember him being used countless times as an example that Wenger had a bit of a blind spot going with defenders.

Just to reel this in, so in 2004, you thought Adams was the reason why Cole was a good defender? Come on now.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't think an average manager would have kept us top 4 for so long or won 3 FA Cups in 4 years.
But if he was quite as good as we thought back in the day he'd have achieved more over the last decade.

Of course you are entitled to your opinions, regardless of the evidence.

My hope is yours is an isolated or at least declining opinion. The critical task for Arsenal right now, today, this minute, is to get this cunt out of our club. Nothing else matters more as far as Arsenal Football Club is concerned.

Yet he's STILL here. It's absolutely shameful. He has a bit of paper that states he can stay, no matter how badly he fucks up. And he's using that, despite all the requests for him to fuck off even from the very players that he rode to success on all those years ago.

This shows how much respect he has for the club, for the fans and for you. None at all. He pisses in your face.

Yet the respect we are, for some inexplicable reason, supposed to show him is the main conversation amongst the fans. It's hard to believe.

He's blamed you, me, every other fan in the past for his fuck-ups. He's sat in behind the scenes and assisted in a thousand ways to scalp the same fans. Directly after each robbery he's stood up and claimed poverty and blamed the chavs or the gypos for the plight of his victims.

He's a con-artists and our pathetic fanbase wonders what's to be done about it. Oh yes, he must leave, no doubt about that. But he doesn't want to so let's force him out by reminiscing over how great he used to be and what a top bloke he is.

It's either extreme complacency assuming the job is already done or it really is some mental disorder inflicted over the years. Fawning over him is not going to make him leave. I don't know why that has to be explained to people.

He's halfway out the door. The fans need to push now and push hard.

Stop with all this nonsense and use whatever you can muster to get this cunt out. If you care about the club and want to see it get back to doing what it should be doing, playing competitive sport.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsenal Holdings PLC share price at a record high on the NEX Exchange of £33,500. A year ago they were worth around £17,250 each.

And there it is, Wenger's REAL legacy.

[HCZ]

Just to reel this in, so in 2004, you thought Adams was the reason why Cole was a good defender? Come on now.

No what I’m saying is if that claim had been made at the time, whilst you might have had a few headbangers who would have got upset....not a lot of people would have cared or have been as surprised as you may think. No one thought of Wenger as a great defensive coach, he was lauded for the attacking football and style of play.

Read Amy Lawrence’s book on the unbeaten season it’s not particularly at any large divergence with claims made by defensive players. Wenger knew himself that defensive coaching wasn’t exactly a strength of his anymore than being the assertive managerial type.
The difference now is whilst he’s always been stubborn, now his ego has inflated that he can’t stand anyone having credit for anything. What Dixon said about Bould makes total and compete sense for me

[KSE Comedy Club]

Of course you are entitled to your opinions, regardless of the evidence.

My hope is yours is an isolated or at least declining opinion. The critical task for Arsenal right now, today, this minute, is to get this cunt out of our club. Nothing else matters more as far as Arsenal Football Club is concerned.

Yet he's STILL here. It's absolutely shameful. He has a bit of paper that states he can stay, no matter how badly he fucks up. And he's using that, despite all the requests for him to fuck off even from the very players that he rode to success on all those years ago.

This shows how much respect he has for the club, for the fans and for you. None at all. He pisses in your face.

Yet the respect we are, for some inexplicable reason, supposed to show him is the main conversation amongst the fans. It's hard to believe.

He's blamed you, me, every other fan in the past for his fuck-ups. He's sat in behind the scenes and assisted in a thousand ways to scalp the same fans. Directly after each robbery he's stood up and claimed poverty and blamed the chavs or the gypos for the plight of his victims.

He's a con-artists and our pathetic fanbase wonders what's to be done about it. Oh yes, he must leave, no doubt about that. But he doesn't want to so let's force him out by reminiscing over how great he used to be and what a top bloke he is.

It's either extreme complacency assuming the job is already done or it really is some mental disorder inflicted over the years. Fawning over him is not going to make him leave. I don't know why that has to be explained to people.

He's halfway out the door. The fans need to push now and push hard.

Stop with all this nonsense and use whatever you can muster to get this cunt out. If you care about the club and want to see it get back to doing what it should be doing, playing competitive sport.

:gp:

This is it, in a nutshell.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't get it, we're as bad as we've even been and yet our shares are at their highest? Wengers' definitely not going to leave now, it seems to me he doesn't have to do anything to make the club money, the shares seem to go up regardless of how bad we are.

Because they've NEVER been focused on the football. It has all been a giant con with Wenger at the heart of it. They used the early success to fleece a generation. They traded off the history, traditions and deep loyalty of the fan base and they stuffed their pockets with as much as they could claw from the bamboozled and captive audience. If they were in real estate they'd be prosecuted, but in the "clean" world of professional football it's all normal.

Btw, Wenger LOVES us. Did you know?

[KSE Comedy Club]

No what I’m saying is if that claim had been made at the time, whilst you might have had a few headbangers who would have got upset....not a lot of people would have cared or have been as surprised as you may think. No one thought of Wenger as a great defensive coach, he was lauded for the attacking football and style of play.

Yes but the point is, no one would belive that Adams was responsible for making Cole the defender he was. In fact Wenger was largely credited with Cole's success, whereas in reality, it seems it was nothing to do with him.

[Letters]

Of course you are entitled to your opinions, regardless of the evidence.
I've cited the evidence for my opinions.


My hope is yours is an isolated or at least declining opinion.

Why? What does it matter what I thought of him 15 years ago or what I think of him now? If I thought Wenger should stay then I'd understand your issue with that opinion, but I don't and haven't done for a while.
I'm not marching in the street about it. I seriously doubt you are.
I'm not protesting in the ground - to do that I'd have to pay to get in to the ground and I refuse to do that right now, I'm not going to give the current regime another penny.
I believe that is the best way to protest actually, if they're only interested in money then I can't stop other people paying to go to games but I can do my bit.
Other than that I don't think I have any power over what the board do or don't do.

[Niall_Quinn]

I've cited the evidence for my opinions.



Why? What does it matter what I thought of him 15 years ago or what I think of him now? If I thought Wenger should stay then I'd understand your issue with that opinion, but I don't and haven't done for a while.
I'm not marching in the street about it. I seriously doubt you are.
I'm not protesting in the ground - to do that I'd have to pay to get in to the ground and I refuse to do that right now, I'm not going to give the current regime another penny.
I believe that is the best way to protest actually, if they're only interested in money then I can't stop other people paying to go to games but I can do my bit.
Other than that I don't think I have any power over what the board do or don't do.

I'm not getting into this further because it'll end in tears.

All I'll say is, Wenger could never have gotten away with this without a certain segment of the fan base backing him all the way.

[Letters]

All I'll say is, Wenger could never have gotten away with this without a certain segment of the fan base backing him all the way.
I'd agree. But you backed him signing a new contract a few years ago after the first FA Cup win. Are you "part of the problem"?
You have changed your mind since then. So have I. Later than you but whatever, we now agree that Wenger should not be our manager.
I've told you what I'm doing about that.
Ranting on here aside, what are you doing and what do you think I should be doing?

[Niall_Quinn]

I'd agree. But you backed him signing a new contract a few years ago after the first FA Cup win. Are you "part of the problem"?
You have changed your mind since then. So have I. Later than you but whatever, we now agree that Wenger should not be our manager.
I've told you what I'm doing about that.
Ranting on here aside, what are you doing and what do you think I should be doing?

What a weasel.

Backed him - with a long string of conditions. All of which he failed to meet. The part you always leave out.

And what's changed for me is giving a person one chance, two chances, three chances, a last chance. When they piss in your face every time, there comes a time. No? There has to be a point where you stand back and say, wow, what a cunt.

[Power n Glory]

Even? :sarcy:

Sorry. :hug:

[HCZ]

Yes but the point is, no one would belive that Adams was responsible for making Cole the defender he was. In fact Wenger was largely credited with Cole's success, whereas in reality, it seems it was nothing to do with him.

Again I think most people wouldnt have cared and it wouldnt have had any kind of significant impact on their view of Wenger

People adored Tony Adams, he was called Mr Arsenal so it would have been uncontroversial. It’s only today that we live in a society of such polarised views that this is considered an issue

I remember the absolute slating Wenger got even at the time for games like the 6-1 defeat to United

Was he called a cunt? Were people calling on him to go? No

But they held him just as responsible as the players

[Özim]

No what I’m saying is if that claim had been made at the time, whilst you might have had a few headbangers who would have got upset....not a lot of people would have cared or have been as surprised as you may think. No one thought of Wenger as a great defensive coach, he was lauded for the attacking football and style of play.

Read Amy Lawrence’s book on the unbeaten season it’s not particularly at any large divergence with claims made by defensive players. Wenger knew himself that defensive coaching wasn’t exactly a strength of his anymore than being the assertive managerial type.
The difference now is whilst he’s always been stubborn, now his ego has inflated that he can’t stand anyone having credit for anything. What Dixon said about Bould makes total and compete sense for me

I disagree with this what would have happened is that people would have claimed that was ridiculous and that Wenger extended Adams career and that Adams would be nowhere without him.

[KSE Comedy Club]

The point I think NQ is trying to make, is that there are still a number of fans that think Wenger deserves some kind of respect with how he leaves the club, a level of dignity, if you will, afforded to someone who deserves to quietly slip away as a cherished memory.

Maybe 3-4 years ago, Wenger deserved that to some extent, and he would have gotten it from the majority of the fans.

Unfortunately, he has stubbornly refused to go quietly with his dignity intact. He signed a new contract in a blatantly dodgy way, took extra money for doing so whilst maintaining all of his negatives but increasing them and taking us further down the plughole.

After all his other faults he has also attacked the fans and blamed us for poor results which is a no no, end of story.

The truth is, he deserves to be sacked & paraded through the streets naked whilst people throw horseshit at him. He has lost his dignity through his own actions but yet there are still fans that think he deserves to stay until the end of the season which I really cannot get my head around ????

Does he really deserve 9 more games and a last 16 EL competition to ruin us even further? Does he?

The answer is NO

He has lied and stubbornly cheated his way to where he is, and now it is time for it to come to an undignified and abrupt end.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Again I think most people wouldnt have cared and it wouldnt have had any kind of significant impact on their view of Wenger

People adored Tony Adams, he was called Mr Arsenal so it would have been uncontroversial. It’s only today that we live in a society of such polarised views that this is considered an issue

I remember the absolute slating Wenger got even at the time for games like the 6-1 defeat to United

Was he called a cunt? Were people calling on him to go? No

But they held him just as responsible as the players

See Zim's reply :good:

[HCZ]

I used the term zero sum yesterday to describe the claim that Dixon made that Bould did work with the defence and that stopped when the media recognised we looked better defensively.

That if you give credit to someone it means taking it away from someone else

My argument is that telling people Adams made Cole the attitude wouldn’t have been that you were impugning Wenger

The attitude would be that Adams was even more of “the boy” than we thought

[KSE Comedy Club]

I used the term zero sum yesterday to describe the claim that Dixon made that Bould did work with the defence and that stopped when the media recognised we looked better defensively.

That if you give credit to someone it means taking it away from someone else

My argument is that telling people Adams made Cole the attitude wouldn’t have been that you were impugning Wenger

The attitude would be that Adams was even more of “the boy” than we thought

Of course that is what it would have meant. No one would believe that Cole was all down to Adams, and if Adams had of said that at the time, people would more likely have taken the piss and called him a drunk.

[HCZ]

I disagree with this what would have happened is that people would have claimed that was ridiculous and that Wenger extended Adams career and that Adams would be nowhere without him.

Adams would be nowhere without Wenger

The only people that would have ever made such a claim are people that were born after Wenger became manager

Adams was a legend, and it was for what he achieved under GG

Adams credited Wenger for extending his career but even in his biography published in the early 2000s said he felt Graham was the better coach. I don’t remember Adams being pilloried for this

[HCZ]

Of course that is what it would have meant. No one would believe that Cole was all down to Adams, and if Adams had of said that at the time, people would more likely have taken the piss and called him a drunk.

I don’t know what Arsenal fans you associated with

The age of social media and polarisation has probably given Wenger this past aura of infallibility in the eyes of people who cry for the moon.

But what I’m saying is that at the time, Wenger was loved, considered the best manager we ever had. But he was not considered infallible

[Letters]

Backed him - with a long string of conditions. All of which he failed to meet. The part you always leave out.
Whatevz. I don't care how or when or why you changed your mind.
The point is, we now agree Wenger should not be our manager.
I told you what I'm doing about that.
What are you doing besides whining on here? What do you think others should be doing?

[Power n Glory]

I disagree with this what would have happened is that people would have claimed that was ridiculous and that Wenger extended Adams career and that Adams would be nowhere without him.

People are saying that right now on Twitter! Despite seeing what Wenger has done to Bellerin and many more like him. Chambers, Holding, Jenkinson....

[Niall_Quinn]

Whatevz. I don't care how or when or why you changed your mind.
The point is, we now agree Wenger should not be our manager.
I told you what I'm doing about that.
What are you doing besides whining on here? What do you think others should be doing?

You're doing nothing. Total disengagement. You don't even watch the matches. You encourage others to give up football if they don't like what's happening at their club. And now you're trying to make a virtue of it. Reminds me of somebody else.

And here I am, moaning my tits off because... Oh I don't know, maybe because that's what fans do when their club is being run into the ground. I should be more like you and do and say fuck all about it. Then you can ask me, what are YOU doing? You see how that works? Of course you do.

As I have said before, you are very dishonest. You say you want Wenger out, but you have always been here to defend him. Always. And always on hand to criticise those who speak out against him. Whining, that's how you put it, right? I think by "whining" you mean making pertinent points about a con-artist hero of yours.

So here's how it's going to be. I'm actually passionate about the club. Because fans tend to be that way. So I'm not going to shut up about Wenger, or pack in football or suck Wenger's cock, because we won stuff a decade and a half ago, while the guy is here fucking up the team. It's like "respectful" rape because he brought you flowers before punching your teeth out and sticking his dick up your arse. You say thanks if you like, I'll say no fucking way. Each to their own.

You think, or hope, the turning tide of negative opinion expressed all across the Internet, inside and outside the ground, on TV, the radio, here in the UK, across the world is just a bunch of helpless fans chatting. I know that's not the case. It almost makes me think you know that's not the case too. Which is why your passion is reserved not for Arsenal Football Club but for Arsene Wenger and against those who call him out for what he is.

You, that bloke Moh, Ty, the prats who were shouting down DT when he raised a polite but pleading banner. It won't work any more. Your charlatan is going down.

So there you are. That's what I'm doing and that's what you're doing. Okay?

[HCZ]

People are saying that right now on Twitter! Despite seeing what Wenger has done to Bellerin and many more like him. Chambers, Holding, Jenkinson....

They do of course

But what I’m saying is this is part of a pro/anti Wenger war.

Go back to 2004 when wenger was universally loved, people wouldn’t see it as an attack that needs challenging

Totally different mindset

[Letters]

So there you are. That's what I'm doing and that's what you're doing. Okay?
Okay.
Once again you wrote a lot and said pretty much nothing.
But, in brief, you're not doing anything either. You're just shouting on here angrily.
I'm sure that will make a difference.
Well done you.
:good:

[Niall_Quinn]

Okay.
Once again you wrote a lot and said pretty much nothing.
But, in brief, you're not doing anything either. You're just shouting on here angrily.
I'm sure that will make a difference.
Well done you.
:good:

I think we both know I said plenty.

[Power n Glory]

They do of course

But what I’m saying is this is part of a pro/anti Wenger war.

Go back to 2004 when wenger was universally loved, people wouldn’t see it as an attack that needs challenging

Totally different mindset

Mate, GW hS been around for a long time and once upon a time there would be a war if you said such things about Wenger. I disagree.

[Letters]

I think we both know I said plenty.

I was leaving out the lies and straw men.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Mate, GW hS been around for a long time and once upon a time there would be a war if you said such things about Wenger. I disagree.

This is true.

There were many a time when Zim was destroyed for having the cheek to mention anything against Wenger.

People would have defended Wenger to the hilt on anything

[HCZ]

Mate, GW hS been around for a long time and once upon a time there would be a war if you said such things about Wenger. I disagree.

Fine, I can’t speak of that I used this site once in a blue moon before it moved onto this server in 2011

But I used 606 religiously and questioning Wengers job would have had me laughed out of the place, but criticising him for our defending in seasons like 02/03? Join the queue

Apart from my dealing with the cultists on Twitter, Wenger has never been beyond reproach.

Tony Adams would never have been called a sad drunk by fans in 2004. The reason he is now is because the pro Wenger idiots have become more militant.

[Niall_Quinn]

I was leaving out the lies and straw men.

Denial is contagious I see. Or maybe it's an aspiration. Or a discipline on the road to the 33rd degree of Wengerism.

[Niall_Quinn]

This is true.

There were many a time when Zim was destroyed for having the cheek to mention anything against Wenger.

People would have defended Wenger to the hilt on anything

Yep. And when you attract that level of devotion then expect the inverse if you abuse the privilege. But even then, Wenger's had a fuck easy ride when you think about it.

[HCZ]

This is true.

There were many a time when Zim was destroyed for having the cheek to mention anything against Wenger.

People would have defended Wenger to the hilt on anything

Zim can be thoughtful and analytical but he also has a habit of polemics

Calling Wenger pound for pound the worst manager we have had in our history

In fairness I think it’s said as much out of frustration

[Niall_Quinn]

Zim can be thoughtful and analytical but he also has a habit of polemics

Calling Wenger pound for pound the worst manager we have had in our history

In fairness I think it’s said as much out of frustration

2 more seasons under Wenger and that would very likely turn out to be true. We've never been relegated from the top flight, have we? And we always compliment Wenger on finding new lows.

[Cripps]

Why do you lot still bother?

[Power n Glory]

Fine, I can’t speak of that I used this site once in a blue moon before it moved onto this server in 2011

But I used 606 religiously and questioning Wengers job would have had me laughed out of the place, but criticising him for our defending in seasons like 02/03? Join the queue

Apart from my dealing with the cultists on Twitter, Wenger has never been beyond reproach.

Tony Adams would never have been called a sad drunk by fans in 2004. The reason he is now is because the pro Wenger idiots have become more militant.

I'm not saying or have I ever said he wouldn't get criticised for our defending. You're shifting the argument somewhere else. This is about player development. Are you seriously telling me that Wenger's player development credentials weren't held up to the highest of standards? That his eye for talent wasn't considered to be above all his peers?

Lee Dixon brings up one example with defenders but if you look at his record for developing young attackers, there is no way people would have thought Wenger would fail to develop players like Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox and Walcott. Or players like Iwobi, Denilson and Vela.

[IBK]

Wenger had taken over a club where which had enjoyed recent success but at the same time wasn’t in danger of challenging for top honours in the near future, we had under Rioch qualified for the UEFA cup on the last day of the season with the Bergkamp brace against Bolton and that was considered a big deal (I was still a kid but I do remember that game)

People that want to nullify anyone else’s impact are as guilty of rewriting history as those who consider Wenger a peripheral figure. We know that Marc Overmars and Manu Petit were bought practically by Danny Fiszman.

Of course we know that the success was a fusion of the experience and leadership of the old guard combined with Wenger bringing into the club players that people hadn’t even heard of or were not reaching their potential at the club we bought them from.

We know that the Wenger and Dein partnership was almost as pivotal to the club’s success as the partnership between Clough and Peter Taylor at Derby and Forest. We know that Pat Rice was kept on as asssistant manager because he was more likely to be a bawler than Wenger (you used to hear Rice shouting not aggressively but assertively at players in pre match warm ups when I used to go to Highbury)

But what happened slowly was that Dein left, Edelman left and Fiszman died and Wenger was allowed to build an unquestionable power base for himself in that vacuum. Because Wenger was only consulting with himself coaches were going more and more unheeded and there was no one with the authority to persuade him or make him listen.

That’s why Wenger became almost unsackable, who was going to do it? For all the power Ferguson had at United he still had to answer to those at the top, Wenger has had to answer to no one. And whilst the club was getting its beloved top four finishes no sense in questioning that (and sadly had we not fallen outside the top four last season this would still be the case)

Wenger is just a case of someone corrupted by his own sense of hype his arrogance in interviews Make it clear he is someone not used to being scrutinised or questioned and it rankles him and he calls it disrespectful. But I think it’s partly human nature, it’s easy to live in a bubble when people around you tell you how wonderful you are. Your ego becomes so inflated that anyone who bursts your bubble is a complete cunt.

Thatcher had arguably lost it years before she was finally shoved out, and in the months before her own MPs nobbled her she would come out with how she was going to fight the next general election and go on and on and on. Power makes you deaf to reason.

:gp:

[Letters]

This is true.

There were many a time when Zim was destroyed for having the cheek to mention anything against Wenger.

People would have defended Wenger to the hilt on anything

To be fair, Zim always takes things to the extreme. I think around 2005 or 2006 he was calling for Wenger to be sacked and was laughed out of the room.
People are now saying "Zim woz right" but the fact is we don't know what would have happened had Wenger been sacked then.

I don't think it's true to say that anything said against Wenger was ridiculed. I don't think anyone ever thought he was a master tactician.
I don't think anyone ever thought he was a brilliant defensive coach.
But sacking him 2 years after the Invincibles, I think most people would have thought that an over-reaction and premature.
It reminds me of the people whining about Ferguson when he failed to win a trophies for a few years in a row and calling for his head..

OK, it went a different way with Ferguson, but the point is it's always easy to look back with 20:20 hindsight and declare those who said a certain thing as wise seers.
The fact is if you keep a consistent opinion about something in an area like football where fortunes can fluctuate you'll probably end up being "right" eventually.

Interestingly, now it really has gone the opposite of the way you say it was (which, as discussed, I'm not sure it ever was quite like that).
You genuinely cannot say the slightest positive thing about Wenger on here without being chased down the road with pichforks and people (deliberately) misunderstanding you and claiming you support Wenger to the hilt.
All rather tiresome.

[Letters]

Why do you lot still bother?

It's this or working :shrug:

[Globalgunner]

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave". Now he conveniently forgets that what was predicted is now our existing and foreseeable reality.
I predict he will have us close to relegation next season,. Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league. Next season there is not a player in the world who could save us (a la Sanchez) who would want to come here. He wont train the players any differently or organise them any differently. What is the inevitable result when every team around us is improving. We cant even get a draw against Brighton now.! We have 9 games to go til the end of this season. Can anyone honestly see us winning even 3. Forget the Europa. That is a pipe dream.

Arguing with Letters over Wenger is like trying to convince your Nan that the 2010s are better than the 1970s. Not a chance in the world. As for Herbert. only a psychiatrist knows what his problem is. He agrees that Wenger is not a good manager, but wasnt always so........ Who really gives a fk.

[Letters]

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave".
No. This is exactly the sort of lie I'm talking about. I would say "Behave" when people started spouting this sort of rot:


I predict he will have us close to relegation next season

Behave...


Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league.
No, it isn't. Because the final league table is not based on a small snapshot of the season when we have, admittedly, been wretched.

[HCZ]

I'm not saying or have I ever said he wouldn't get criticised for our defending. You're shifting the argument somewhere else. This is about player development. Are you seriously telling me that Wenger's player development credentials weren't held up to the highest of standards? That his eye for talent wasn't considered to be above all his peers?

Lee Dixon brings up one example with defenders but if you look at his record for developing young attackers, there is no way people would have thought Wenger would fail to develop players like Ramsey, Wilshere, Ox and Walcott. Or players like Iwobi, Denilson and Vela.

My point is the difference between saying Tony Adams worked with Ashley Cole to make him the defender he is

And Wenger couldn’t develop a player to save his life

The point I’ve continuously tried to make, is that the claim made by Lee Dixon wouldn’t have been considered controversial at the time given that defensive training was never considered one of Wengers strengths.

If however you had said at the time Wenger can take no credit for developing Henry at the time, I think that would be a different matter entirely. But when you speak to the player himself even he would challenge that.

What Wenger did personally to improve Henry, Van Persie etc who actually knows. Of course you make a valid point about his recent failure to develop players but I would also argue it’s more complicated than someone was doing it for him when it did work.

Of the players you have cited Wenger failed to improve, with the exception of Wilshere who most of his stunted career can be attributed to injury, would they have really developed better with someone else. I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t I’m saying the jury is out.

With the best will in the world you can’t make an average player into a great one. If you look at Ramsey, he can’t trap a ball, his passing is average, he has little in the way of acceleration. Now you can argue a better coach would get the best out of him more consistently but even Ramsey at his best doesnt have the attributes of a top, top player.

The failure to get the most consistent performances from these players is most definitely his fault, the failure to turn them into top class players....were they ever that to begin with?

[KSE Comedy Club]

To be fair, Zim always takes things to the extreme. I think around 2005 or 2006 he was calling for Wenger to be sacked and was laughed out of the room.
People are now saying "Zim woz right" but the fact is we don't know what would have happened had Wenger been sacked then.

I don't think it's true to say that anything said against Wenger was ridiculed. I don't think anyone ever thought he was a master tactician.
I don't think anyone ever thought he was a brilliant defensive coach.
But sacking him 2 years after the Invincibles, I think most people would have thought that an over-reaction and premature.
It reminds me of the people whining about Ferguson when he failed to win a trophies for a few years in a row and calling for his head..

OK, it went a different way with Ferguson, but the point is it's always easy to look back with 20:20 hindsight and declare those who said a certain thing as wise seers.
The fact is if you keep a consistent opinion about something in an area like football where fortunes can fluctuate you'll probably end up being "right" eventually.

Interestingly, now it really has gone the opposite of the way you say it was (which, as discussed, I'm not sure it ever was quite like that).
You genuinely cannot say the slightest positive thing about Wenger on here without being chased down the road with pichforks and people (deliberately) misunderstanding you and claiming you support Wenger to the hilt.
All rather tiresome.

That was just a quick example off the top of my head.

But back when Adams was in the team and playing well alongside Cole, it would have been Wenger that was lauded for his influence on Cole not Adams and anyone who tried to suggest otherwise would have been laughed at.

That is a fact.

[Globalgunner]

You cant develop players by NOT instructing them, which by all accounts is what Wenger does. The evidence is there that the earlier players developed through Osmosis simply by playing with good players and imbibing their drive and heart.

take boxers for instance. What levels would Mike tyson have reached if his mentor Cus D`Amato hadnt died when he was barely out of his teens. maybe Bruno could have won a world title if someone had told him how to move his head and feet.

The fact that someone was once sucessful does not actuallyy mean they were really good at what they were succesful at

Michael Bay is a shit director, even though he has made some successful films. His output has been toxic for the last 10 years

What have the Wachowski brothers/sisters done since the first Matrix?. Even the sequels were shit.

Sometimes the times just fit. If you are the real deal they will continue to align.

[HCZ]

That was just a quick example off the top of my head.

But back when Adams was in the team and playing well alongside Cole, it would have been Wenger that was lauded for his influence on Cole not Adams and anyone who tried to suggest otherwise would have been laughed at.

That is a fact.

No it’s a claim

[Cripps]

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave". Now he conveniently forgets that what was predicted is now our existing and foreseeable reality.
I predict he will have us close to relegation next season,. Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league. Next season there is not a player in the world who could save us (a la Sanchez) who would want to come here. He wont train the players any differently or organise them any differently. What is the inevitable result when every team around us is improving. We cant even get a draw against Brighton now.! We have 9 games to go til the end of this season. Can anyone honestly see us winning even 3. Forget the Europa. That is a pipe dream.

Arguing with Letters over Wenger is like trying to convince your Nan that the 2010s are better than the 1970s. Not a chance in the world. As for Herbert. only a psychiatrist knows what his problem is. He agrees that Wenger is not a good manager, but wasnt always so........ Who really gives a fk.

:haha:

[Letters]

No it’s a claim

It is a claim, but I think it's fairly likely to be true.
But, again, it depends how it was framed. If it was stated that Adams was assisting with Cole's development then I don't think that would have been controversial. If the claim was he was solely responsible for it then I think that would have been challenged.

[HCZ]

You cant develop players by NOT instructing them, which by all accounts is what Wenger does. The evidence is there that the earlier players developed through Osmosis simply by playing with good players and imbibing their drive and heart.

take boxers for instance. What levels would Mike tyson have reached if his mentor Cus D`Amato hadnt died when he was barely out of his teens. maybe Bruno could have won a world title if someone had told him how to move his head and feet.

The fact that someone was once sucessful does not actuallyy mean they were really good at what they were succesful at

Michael Bay is a shit director, even though he has made some successful films. His output has been toxic for the last 10 years

What have the Wachowski brothers/sisters done since the first Matrix?. Even the sequels were shit.

Sometimes the times just fit. If you are the real deal they will continue to align.

Not totally unfair (even the first Matrix was overrated)

And I don’t think anyone would think it unfair that in the final analysis Wenger was of his time

However, Henry didn’t convert from a winger to a striker because of a prophetic dream. How much Wenger micromanaged that transition who knows, considering his laissez faire attitude I doubt he would have broken it down to the basic constituents of his game no.

Would he have encouraged him to do things he saw from him on the pitch that thought would make him a good striker....that sounds more plausible

[Power n Glory]

My point is the difference between saying Tony Adams worked with Ashley Cole to make him the defender he is

And Wenger couldn’t develop a player to save his life

The point I’ve continuously tried to make, is that the claim made by Lee Dixon wouldn’t have been considered controversial at the time given that defensive training was never considered one of Wengers strengths.

If however you had said at the time Wenger can take no credit for developing Henry at the time, I think that would be a different matter entirely. But when you speak to the player himself even he would challenge that.

What Wenger did personally to improve Henry, Van Persie etc who actually knows. Of course you make a valid point about his recent failure to develop players but I would also argue it’s more complicated than someone was doing it for him when it did work.

Of the players you have cited Wenger failed to improve, with the exception of Wilshere who most of his stunted career can be attributed to injury, would they have really developed better with someone else. I’m not saying they definitely wouldn’t I’m saying the jury is out.

With the best will in the world you can’t make an average player into a great one. If you look at Ramsey, he can’t trap a ball, his passing is average, he has little in the way of acceleration. Now you can argue a better coach would get the best out of him more consistently but even Ramsey at his best doesnt have the attributes of a top, top player.

The failure to get the most consistent performances from these players is most definitely his fault, the failure to turn them into top class players....were they ever that to begin with?

All true but that's still missing the point about the belief from fans that Wenger could turn anyone into the next Henry. The expectation level for Theo Walcott was high. Had zero to do with Theo's ability as a player. The belief that Theo was the next big thing came from Wenger's reputation and his seal of approval. The general consensus was that if Wenger was interested in signing you, you were on your way to becoming a superstar.

This is getting long. Again, to argue otherwise is what I would call revising history. I think I'm done for the day.

[HCZ]

Why do you lot even bother with replying Letters. 2 seasons ago if you told him we`d drop out of the top 4 he would cry "behave". Now he conveniently forgets that what was predicted is now our existing and foreseeable reality.
I predict he will have us close to relegation next season,. Its inevitable because we are on current form one of the worst teams in the league. Next season there is not a player in the world who could save us (a la Sanchez) who would want to come here. He wont train the players any differently or organise them any differently. What is the inevitable result when every team around us is improving. We cant even get a draw against Brighton now.! We have 9 games to go til the end of this season. Can anyone honestly see us winning even 3. Forget the Europa. That is a pipe dream.

Arguing with Letters over Wenger is like trying to convince your Nan that the 2010s are better than the 1970s. Not a chance in the world. As for Herbert. only a psychiatrist knows what his problem is. He agrees that Wenger is not a good manager, but wasnt always so........ Who really gives a fk.

Well apparently it matters a lot to people here

My argument is born out of not seeing things in a binary way

If I believed Wenger was always terrible I’d say so, I don’t have any emotional attachment to him, the guy is being a total cunt and even if he wasn’t I wouldn’t feel the need to protect him.

I just think it’s a bit overly simplistic as simplistic as the cult of Wenger swivell eyed loons

[HCZ]

All true but that's still missing the point about the belief from fans that Wenger could turn anyone into the next Henry. The expectation level for Theo Walcott was high. Had zero to do with Theo's ability as a player. The belief that Theo was the next big thing came from Wenger's reputation and his seal of approval. The general consensus was that if Wenger was interested in signing you, you were on your way to becoming a superstar.

This is getting long. Again, to argue otherwise is what I would call revising history. I think I'm done for the day.

If you are arguing that because of Henry the assumption was that he’d do the same with Walcott you’ll get no argument from me at all.

I wouldn’t even try to deny that. I wasn’t ever fully convinced that he was going to be quite as good as Henry but no doubt I thought he’d be better than he turned out to be