Wenger Referendum IV

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger is getting another two years.

The Club are clearly trying to link the timing of the announcement to something positive. The last chance now being a cup final win. The justification being how can you sack a guy who has just become the sole holder of a cup record.

They'd like to link it to something positive, but if worse comes to worse (and being Arsenal, it will), they'll just announce it anyway.

Highly likely. Question is, what do they expect he can achieve in those 2 years? In terms of success on the pitch? Either he has hypnotised them or they are totally clueless about the game.

Or. They don't give a shit about what happens on the pitch provided enough happens to ensure the money keeps flowing. Which is the only explanation that fits. And is a measure of how much trouble this club is in.

Stan has done it again. 100% record of mediocrity. He said it himself, if winning trophies was the goal he'd never have "invested".

[Niall_Quinn]

more like wenger is trying to do that, let's be honest the board have no say in this. it's down to kroenke and wenger.

failure to win the fa cup and he'll just announce it off season, when there is no match days and he doesn't have to directly face any protests. simples.

The cup loss will be a very even match until we are a little bit naive and get punished. It will then be very difficult for us, despite the fact we will show great spirit. Perhaps we will be a little bit lacking in the freedom we show in our play and maybe that will cost us. We will not be able to fault the players and the effort to win. It will be sad for the fans but of course it will be important to bounce back in the next cup match.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think it's now becoming harder and harder for him to announce he's staying without serious protest

He's been desperate to try and get a run together in order for their to be little more than the odd petulant grumble

The question is now whether Kroenke considers Wenger staying as injurious to the clubs share values long term

Also is if he does go, who do we get in now that Allegri has signed contract extension with Juventus

[Globalgunner]

I think it's now becoming harder and harder for him to announce he's staying without serious protest

He's been desperate to try and get a run together in order for their to be little more than the odd petulant grumble

The question is now whether Kroenke considers Wenger staying as injurious to the clubs share values long term

Also is if he does go, who do we get in now that Allegri has signed contract extension with Juventus

The soon to be Barca ex manager is available. Enrique is an improvement on Wenger, Give him a 2 year contract and lets see what happens.
Simeone has not signed that extension either

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

The soon to be Barca ex manager is available. Enrique is an improvement on Wenger, Give him a 2 year contract and lets see what happens.
Simeone has not signed that extension either

Is he really?

I think we've come to a point where we are so sick of Wenger that we are forgetting what we need in this side

Strength and character and positional and defensive discipline.

Therefore with the possible exception of Diego Simeone I don't see any benefit of bringing in a coach from Spain

[Marc Overmars]

Simeone is the one. A warrior of a man and able to tailor his tactics perfectly.

If he could bring his philosophy and take the essence of Wenger's as well, we'd be a formidable team.

[mastermind84]

Arsenal have not won away at a top 12 side this season.

They have only won one match against the 5 clubs that are ahead of them in the table.

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we can get more ahead of us in the table we may win more against them.

[rodders]

Get rid of Arsene and Stan. Both live in a dream world of their own.

[The Dismantler]

Wenger Kroenke get the hell out of OUR club :fury:

[Xhaka Can’t]

If we do somehow win the Cup, the parade could be interesting.

[Marc Overmars]

Not sure they'd even have one tbh. Unless it was announced he was leaving.

[Niall_Quinn]

At least a sizeable number of fans have done their job this season, which is NOT (as our friends Mr Kroenke and Mr Wenger imagine) to constantly shell out, but to speak out about the totally unacceptable performance of the board, the manager and the team. The fans are the only people to have performed this season.

If we somehow steal the FA Cup, on the back of triumphs against our non-league foes and a bunch of gypos that are almost as pathetic as we are, it signifies NOTHING. And after the humiliation at Shitehart Lane I couldn't give a shit if we win, lose or draw any of our remaining games.

If they have the nerve to celebrate anything after this sorry season, I hope the fans find tall buildings and piss down on them.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Unless Chelsea go to sleep as a result of winning the title, we won't win the FA cup. It's I'm afraid to say very little different from Aston Villa or Hull making cup finals a few years ago.

I don't think we even played that badly on Sunday, just didn't have the quality to avoid defeat

[Gooner23]

I'm not sure we have to worry too much about that anyway. Chelsea are too well organised for us, they are huge favourites to win.

[selassie]

Unless Chelsea go to sleep as a result of winning the title, we won't win the FA cup. It's I'm afraid to say very little different from Aston Villa or Hull making cup finals a few years ago.

I don't think we even played that badly on Sunday, just didn't have the quality to avoid defeat

My thoughts too. Chelsea are too organised and have too much quality to slip up against us.

We will approach this game like we approach most with no real kind of plan, just a "throw mud at the wall and hope it sticks" type solution.

I'm not even looking forward to the Final, sad as it may sound... I also don't even care if we win or lose.

[Globalgunner]

The difference as always is we are too easy to defend against. Even if we put up a struggle Chelsea have individuals who can produce a wonder goal like Hazard, Willian, Pedro or even Matic. With us its all on Sanchez to make a difference as we will keep passing the ball in front of their defence till the sun goes down and rises after a quick trip to Australia.

It will even be worse if Chelsea score first. You know what we are like, 1 goal opens the gates to 5 or 6.

[Niall_Quinn]

The dinosaur speaks.


Arsene Wenger has ridiculed the role of the director of football and ruled out any chance of such an appointment being made at Arsenal as long as he is the manager.

'No,' replied Wenger, when asked if there were any plans to introduce a director of football as part of a restructuring process at the Emirates Stadium.

'Director of football? I don't know what it means. Is it someone who stands on the road and directs play right and left? I've never understood what it means.'

'Sorry, no. I am not prepared to talk. I am the manager of Arsenal Football Club and as long as I am the manager of Arsenal Football Club I will decide what happens on technical front. That's it.'

All hail, the Glorious Leader :bow:

[Letters]

What DOES a Director of Football do?

[Power n Glory]

What DOES a Director of Football do?

Google is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_football

It doesn't matter about the role. Wenger is saying he doesn't want change or thinks he needs help. Should be enough ammo for him to lose his job.

[Marc Overmars]

Has he gone yet?

[Niall_Quinn]

Google is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_football

It doesn't matter about the role. Wenger is saying he doesn't want change or thinks he needs help. Should be enough ammo for him to lose his job.

Look on the bright side, if he hates the role of director of football so much then we can rest easy about him being appointed to it in the future. That would be a death sentence for any new manager.

[Letters]

Google is your friend.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Director_of_football

It doesn't matter about the role. Wenger is saying he doesn't want change or thinks he needs help. Should be enough ammo for him to lose his job.

"The exact nature of the role is often unclear and extremely variable"

Seems like a bit of a made up thing tbh.

[Niall_Quinn]

"The exact nature of the role is often unclear and extremely variable"

Seems like a bit of a made up thing tbh.

Scroll down for the remaining 99% of the article.

[Letters]

Scroll down for the remaining 99% of the article.

Which all says "it might be this" or "it might be that" or "sometimes it's this".

So you think we need a director of football? What for? Don't we just need a new manager who can get them playing as a team?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Which all says "it might be this" or "it might be that" or "sometimes it's this".

So you think we need a director of football? What for? Don't we just need a new manager who can get them playing as a team?

Because most modern football structures work with a director of football.

If we get in a manager and give him the same carte blanche as we gave Wenger we are asking for the same problems all over again.

Wenger doesn't want a director of football because he wants nothing to change he wants the same power he's always had.

[selassie]

"The exact nature of the role is often unclear and extremely variable"

Seems like a bit of a made up thing tbh.

Wenger's current role is unclear and variable so it's nothing new here.

I think Wenger is clear on what the Director of Football would be brought in to do at Arsenal, mainly to lead/help with player recruitment/transfer strategy.

As others have said, he is a control freak and doesn't want change. An appointment of a Director of Football may well end his time here, it could be he walks out of principle. 🙂

[Niall_Quinn]

Which all says "it might be this" or "it might be that" or "sometimes it's this".

So you think we need a director of football? What for? Don't we just need a new manager who can get them playing as a team?

The name of the role is irrelevant. If Wenger is staying then he can't be permitted to carry on ruiningrunning every aspect of the club. If he's not staying then we have to pray the board isn't stupid enough to allow that amount of power into the next guy's hands. Football clubs are big corporate operations these days, not the local and social setups they used to be.

[Marc Overmars]

A modern day CEO should be enough to bridge the gap between the board and manager.

In our case though, the CEO is powerless and the manager isn't accountable to anyone but himself. Until Wenger fucks off there's not a chance in hell we'll see any changes to the infrastructure of the club. Even then we're reliant on this bone idle board to do something useful and take a more hands on approach to ensure higher standards and targets are set for the next guy.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My brother made the point that the reason has so much power is because Gazidis is useless. That his statements are meant to deflect criticism from himself and that his primary function is to grow the business and he's absolutely bungled that.

[Marc Overmars]

My brother made the point that the reason has so much power is because Gazidis is useless. That his statements are meant to deflect criticism from himself and that his primary function is to grow the business and he's absolutely bungled that.

Odd thing for your brother to say. We're the 5th most valuable club in the world. One thing you can't knock this club for is the rate at which it has grown financially and in particular without a benefactor.

[Power n Glory]

Wenger's current role is unclear and variable so it's nothing new here.

I think Wenger is clear on what the Director of Football would be brought in to do at Arsenal, mainly to lead/help with player recruitment/transfer strategy.

As others have said, he is a control freak and doesn't want change. An appointment of a Director of Football may well end his time here, it could be he walks out of principle. ��

We’ve been saying it for years now. He doesn’t want to change and the fact that he’s made such a statement is just another knock to Ivan’s ‘catalyst of change’ statement. When people on here or pundits were suggesting Wenger was being hung out to try by the Board, I’ve never seen it like that. He’s happy that the Board stay out of his way and that they don’t interfere in the technical side. When they try, I doubt he listens or it takes a long time to convince him. I believe that statement PHW made years back during the ‘warchest’ stories day, that Wenger not wanting spend. Let’s not forget Wenger recently saying he has to calm Ivan down when it comes to spending.

If the Board have any sense, they’ll show him the exit. A Director of Football may have been their way of trying to save his job. Totally selfish of Wenger and he’s betraying football. If Johan Cruyff is his idol, he should be aware of how Cryuff embraced his former players and brought them back to Ajax to make sure football was the focus. We’ve been left totally exposed by Wenger.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But actually in terms of marketing we are well behind city, United etc

Most of our profits this season have come from the tv deal.

As much as he's a football relic it's hard to argue that Wenger has been as instrumental in making our club as big as it has been finishing top four with less transfer expenditure etc. Of course with the wage bill and a failure to challenge for big trophies it could be argued just as easily that he's equally responsible for us not having done more.

Frankly I think the whole club could do with change, it's hard to know how much Gazidis is constrained in his job and we could equally think if he had any self respect or high reputation he would have left by now.

He is the only one apart from Wenger that we ever hear from, and because he takes a different line to Wenger he endears himself more.

However it's impossible to know whether he's a genuine agent for change or whether he's covering his own arse.

[Power n Glory]

Odd thing for your brother to say. We're the 5th most valuable club in the world. One thing you can't knock this club for is the rate at which it has grown financially and in particular without a benefactor.


Exactly. Let’s not forget that Wenger hired his own ‘boss’. The Board have done part of what Wenger has been bellyaching about. He can’t use money as an excuse now. Especially not when we lost the league to Leicester last year. People have been trying to find a way to absolve Wenger for years. This is a clear example of Wenger telling Gazidis and co to stay out of the technical side and that he doesn’t want their opinion on how his team should play.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Exactly. Let’s not forget that Wenger hired his own ‘boss’. The Board have done part of what Wenger has been bellyaching about. He can’t use money as an excuse now. Especially not when we lost the league to Leicester last year. People have been trying to find a way to absolve Wenger for years. This is a clear example of Wenger telling Gazidis and co to stay out of the technical side and that he doesn’t want their opinion on how his team should play.

The only argument id make is that whether he is a genuine catalyst for change now or not, he has spent a hell of a long time asleep at the wheel.

And you could equally argue that would a CEO worth his salt allow himself to be interviewed by someone when you would be becoming their boss.

I'm playing devils advocate, I'm not a big fan of Gazidis but I believe that unfortunately he is the only one who offers a way out of this mess.

[Letters]

Because most modern football structures work with a director of football.

If we get in a manager and give him the same carte blanche as we gave Wenger we are asking for the same problems all over again.

Wenger doesn't want a director of football because he wants nothing to change he wants the same power he's always had.

I agree Wenger has far too much control. He seemed to work best when someone like Dein was working more directly with him, there doesn't seem to be any equivalent of that now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I agree Wenger has far too much control. He seemed to work best when someone like Dein was working more directly with him, there doesn't seem to be any equivalent of that now.

And because the nearest thing we have to anyone like Dein is Gazidis who in fairness has come from the tinpot MLS, it if anything strengthens the need for a DoF whether he's still here or not.

The question is now whether Gazidis or Kroenke or anyone else has the resolve to say, we are changing the structure of the football club because there is life after you and if you want to continue here you will shake up your coaching team and have to work with a director of football take it or leave it.

The shame is Wenger i think will take it if the only alternative is for him to leave the club.

[Özim]

The dinosaur speaks.



All hail, the Glorious Leader :bow:

a) He's not funny
b) He decides everything that goes on at this club, including wether he done well and whether he keeps his job.
c) He wouldn't understand technical if it hit him in the face, the most technical he gets is cutting and pasting the same tactics/style game after game year after year

The glorious speciialist failure :bow:

[Power n Glory]

The only argument id make is that whether he is a genuine catalyst for change now or not, he has spent a hell of a long time asleep at the wheel.

And you could equally argue that would a CEO worth his salt allow himself to be interviewed by someone when you would be becoming their boss.

I'm playing devils advocate, I'm not a big fan of Gazidis but I believe that unfortunately he is the only one who offers a way out of this mess.

Most fans have been asleep at the wheel. The whole ‘financial doping’ argument is what most people fed into and it started the whole anti Ivan+Kroenke thing. For a long time, the perception was that we didn’t have money to spend and the Board were taking the flack for that. When the manager has complete control of the technical side and claims he’s being held back by our finances, it creates the perception that the Board are useless with the fans and kept the managers shortcomings out of the conversation. People would have gone nuts at the Board if he were sacked earlier.

Also, they’re not going to do that whilst trying to negotiate new sponsorship deals and after just moving to a new stadium. They had total faith in Wenger, like most fans, and probably convinced that he needed more money to spend. Hence, the mission to boost our revenue. That day has arrived and he’s fallen flat even with more money to spend. I suspect Ivan knew Wenger was full of shit ages when he said the fans determine Wenger’s job. I doubt short term success (trophies) is on the Board’s mind. If we’re happy with 4th every year, why change it?

[selassie]

We’ve been saying it for years now. He doesn’t want to change and the fact that he’s made such a statement is just another knock to Ivan’s ‘catalyst of change’ statement. When people on here or pundits were suggesting Wenger was being hung out to try by the Board, I’ve never seen it like that. He’s happy that the Board stay out of his way and that they don’t interfere in the technical side. When they try, I doubt he listens or it takes a long time to convince him. I believe that statement PHW made years back during the ‘warchest’ stories day, that Wenger not wanting spend. Let’s not forget Wenger recently saying he has to calm Ivan down when it comes to spending.

If the Board have any sense, they’ll show him the exit. A Director of Football may have been their way of trying to save his job. Totally selfish of Wenger and he’s betraying football. If Johan Cruyff is his idol, he should be aware of how Cryuff embraced his former players and brought them back to Ajax to make sure football was the focus. We’ve been left totally exposed by Wenger.

Oh I totally agree DOG, for a while I have thought Wenger wants it only his way, the numerous soundbites he has made about being in control of the technical side etc, that's how he wants it and now that Gazidis is suggesting we should see some change in the technical side Wenger doesn't like it and is digging his heels in.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Most fans have been asleep at the wheel. The whole ‘financial doping’ argument is what most people fed into and it started the whole anti Ivan+Kroenke thing. For a long time, the perception was that we didn’t have money to spend and the Board were taking the flack for that. When the manager has complete control of the technical side and claims he’s being held back by our finances, it creates the perception that the Board are useless with the fans and kept the managers shortcomings out of the conversation. People would have gone nuts at the Board if he were sacked earlier.

Also, they’re not going to do that whilst trying to negotiate new sponsorship deals and after just moving to a new stadium. They had total faith in Wenger, like most fans, and probably convinced that he needed more money to spend. Hence, the mission to boost our revenue. That day has arrived and he’s fallen flat even with more money to spend. I suspect Ivan knew Wenger was full of shit ages when he said the fans determine Wenger’s job. I doubt short term success (trophies) is on the Board’s mind. If we’re happy with 4th every year, why change it?

The fans aren't responsible for the running of the club, they can only go with what they are told by the club

Which was to promise Gold and deliver Tin

Being asleep at the wheel i would say is a failure to pre-empt this kind of season coming, it's been content to kick the issue into the long grass

The issue is not as Binary as whether Wenger should have been sacked earlier or not, but it's a bit like Brown talking about the end of boom and bust and standing back from an unregulated, irresponsible market place that was doomed to crash as a result of it's hubris.

[selassie]

Most fans have been asleep at the wheel. The whole ‘financial doping’ argument is what most people fed into and it started the whole anti Ivan+Kroenke thing. For a long time, the perception was that we didn’t have money to spend and the Board were taking the flack for that. When the manager has complete control of the technical side and claims he’s being held back by our finances, it creates the perception that the Board are useless with the fans and kept the managers shortcomings out of the conversation. People would have gone nuts at the Board if he were sacked earlier.

Also, they’re not going to do that whilst trying to negotiate new sponsorship deals and after just moving to a new stadium. They had total faith in Wenger, like most fans, and probably convinced that he needed more money to spend. Hence, the mission to boost our revenue. That day has arrived and he’s fallen flat even with more money to spend. I suspect Ivan knew Wenger was full of shit ages when he said the fans determine Wenger’s job. I doubt short term success (trophies) is on the Board’s mind. If we’re happy with 4th every year, why change it?

Yep, I actually think Gazidis is throwing enough rope for Wenger to hang. Gazidis has been very calculated in his statements this year and each one has had quite a strong meaning behind it.

Gazidis knows Wenger doesn't have any credit left so is subtly firing the bullets his way.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's doing a lot more than digging his heels in. He's declaring himself to be in control - "That's it!"

And to the point raised by HCZ on Wenger relenting if somebody on the board suddenly sprouts testicles, yes I think Wenger would back down too. Just to stay in the job. He's already shown how desperate beyond measure he is. But then he'd spend his time undermining the new guy. There's no upside to Wenger staying under any circumstances. There's nothing that can be done to mitigate him staying.

[Power n Glory]

The fans aren't responsible for the running of the club, they can only go with what they are told by the club

Which was to promise Gold and deliver Tin

Being asleep at the wheel i would say is a failure to pre-empt this kind of season coming, it's been content to kick the issue into the long grass

The issue is not as Binary as whether Wenger should have been sacked earlier or not, but it's a bit like Brown talking about the end of boom and bust and standing back from an unregulated, irresponsible market place that was doomed to crash as a result of it's hubris.

No board is able to pre-empt a disastrous season. They can only react. The fans aren’t responsible for running the club but for all the years of failure being blamed on ‘financial doping’, I can see why the focus exclusively on boosting our revenue and profile. At most clubs, when the fans turn against the manager, the manager will lose their job unless he turns it around.

[selassie]

He's doing a lot more than digging his heels in. He's declaring himself to be in control - "That's it!"

And to the point raised by HCZ on Wenger relenting if somebody on the board suddenly sprouts testicles, yes I think Wenger would back down too. Just to stay in the job. He's already shown how desperate beyond measure he is. But then he'd spend his time undermining the new guy. There's no upside to Wenger staying under any circumstances. There's nothing that can be done to mitigate him staying.

Of course, there is definitely a power struggle going on between him and Gazidis, quite sad really because if we were run like a proper football club then Gazidis or someone on the board would tell him to do as he is told or go and find another job.

Wenger is in no position to dictate, he is the manager of the football club not the owner.

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course, there is definitely a power struggle going on between him and Gazidis, quite sad really because if we were run like a proper football club then Gazidis or someone on the board would tell him to do as he is told or go and find another job.

Wenger is in no position to dictate, he is the manager of the football club not the owner.

But we aren't run as a proper football club and if Wenger somehow manages to fall into another 4th place finish and the golden goose delivers what the moneymen want, yet again, I'm sure he'll be permitted as many indulgences as he demands.

[Letters]

Would be kinda funny if we STILL finish top 4 :lol:

[Niall_Quinn]

Would be kinda funny if we STILL finish top 4 :lol:

Liverpool will have to have an epic blow-out for us to grab that spot. I think they finish off against Boro too, who have just been relegated.

[Marc Overmars]

I don't see us winning all 4 games and City or Liverpool dropping the points required. But yeah it would be hilarious and probably WUMger's finest hour.

Europa League for us. At least we may go beyond the 2nd round in that. I wonder if they'll have the cheek to make any EL games category A.

[Özim]

If we win all our games and Liverpool draw we get in the CL, they're away to West Ham next so it's not impossible. We do have to beat Southampton and Stoke away though and Everton at home.

Frankly we don't deserve top 4 because we've been dreadful this season, the fact we're still in with a chance highlights the lack of quality in the league, other than Chelsea and Spurs the league is poor, Guardiola is doing an awful job at City and Klopp after a bright start this season is finding it hard to get his team to perform, though IMO Liverpool lack quality which they may be able to address this summer if they qualify for the CL.

[Blink 1nce Quince 2wice]

If we finish top 4 we deserve it...if we finish 6th we deserve it.

[selassie]

I don't see us winning all 4 games and City or Liverpool dropping the points required. But yeah it would be hilarious and probably WUMger's finest hour.

Europa League for us. At least we may go beyond the 2nd round in that. I wonder if they'll have the cheek to make any EL games category A.

Me neither, I wouldn't be surprised if the top 4 hopes were killed by this weekend, I personally think we'll drop points tomorrow night and at the weekend.

A season out of CL will do us good, there is literally no point us qualifying for it at the moment anyway.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Liverpool will have to have an epic blow-out for us to grab that spot. I think they finish off against Boro too, who have just been relegated.

Yeah, like when Spurs smashed an already relegated Newcastle United on the final day of last season.

[Niall_Quinn]

If we finish top 4 we deserve it...if we finish 6th we deserve it.

Hardly ever true. The biggest influence on this league continues to be referees. It will be up to them how the final placings play out. As usual.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yeah, like when Spurs smashed an already relegated Newcastle United on the final day of last season.

Possibly. But we'll need to have won all our games just to be in the hunt. That's the bit I find fantastic.

[Letters]

Liverpool will have to have an epic blow-out for us to grab that spot. I think they finish off against Boro too, who have just been relegated.

Relegated sides often have a resurgence when they've been relegated and the pressure is off (see Newcastle vs Spurs last year).
I don't think we'll finish top 4 but it's hilarious we still can and agree with Zim that it highlights how poor the league is right now.

[Power n Glory]

http://arseblog.com/2017/05/arsene-wenger-director-football-comments/

Sounds like Arseblog may be finally getting the picture but still struggling to come to terms with the fact that our manager is a control freak that doesn't want change.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

http://arseblog.com/2017/05/arsene-wenger-director-football-comments/

Sounds like Arseblog may be finally getting the picture but still struggling to come to terms with the fact that our manager is a control freak that doesn't want change.

I don't think he denies that Wenger is a control freak, but like i say i don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Gazidis catalyst of change stuff is political manoeuvring on his part, to give the impression that he's on the fan's side.

[Letters]

Hardly ever true. The biggest influence on this league continues to be referees. It will be up to them how the final placings play out. As usual.

So you think the refs helped us to 2nd last year?

[Power n Glory]

I don't think he denies that Wenger is a control freak, but like i say i don't think it's beyond the realms of possibility that Gazidis catalyst of change stuff is political manoeuvring on his part, to give the impression that he's on the fan's side.

Of course it’s political manoeuvring. It’s funny how long Arseblog has avoided saying Wenger is the problem and pointed the finger at Gazidis and now that it’s clear that Wenger is the problem, it’s still Gazidis’s fault for not acting sooner. :lol: With what power and backing if the owner is a fan of the manager and fans scared to point the finger at Wenger but instead pointing it at the Board?

[Niall_Quinn]

So you think the refs helped us to 2nd last year?

And where did I say or even imply that?

[Niall_Quinn]

Of course it’s political manoeuvring. It’s funny how long Arseblog has avoided saying Wenger is the problem and pointed the finger at Gazidis and now that it’s clear that Wenger is the problem, it’s still Gazidis’s fault for not acting sooner. :lol: With what power and backing if the owner is a fan of the manager and fans scared to point the finger at Wenger but instead pointing it at the Board?

Whatever is going on behind the scenes, it's only occurring because Wenger has long outstayed his welcome. Just about every problem at the club originates with him.

Why the fuck doesn't he go? It's really hard to believe what's going on. A complete fucking failure sitting there, imparting the wisdom of failure to all those prepared to listen for the umpteenth time. It's all so tired. Embarrassing for the club. Humiliating for Wenger himself.

[Niall_Quinn]

...the relationship between Wenger and the board is now understood to be under serious strain.

Those tensions raise questions over whether Wenger and Gazidis can continue a working relationship together beyond this season should the Frenchman get his way and sign a new two-year deal.

Gazidis, who held key roles for the MLS before agreeing to join Arsenal in 2008, wouldn’t be short of job offers in the USA if he left the Emirates.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4489560/Arsenal-news-Arsene-Wenger-facing-battle-change-staff.html

The automatic assumption is Wenger will stay and everyone else has to fuck off if they don't like it.

[Marc Overmars]

The autonomy he has is a joke. I don't know what to make of Gazidis but good on him if has tried to strong arm his way through.

[Letters]

And where did I say or even imply that?

Umm...


The biggest influence on this league continues to be referees. It will be up to them how the final placings play out. As usual.

:blink:

[Power n Glory]

The autonomy he has is a joke. I don't know what to make of Gazidis but good on him if has tried to strong arm his way through.

Crazy situation. You would have thought Wenger would be looking out for the best interest of the club. He’s shielded his own position by surrounding himself by yes men and not embracing former players with influence to come back to the club as coaches. Selfish fucker. Totally opposite to what Cryuff believed in.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Of course it’s political manoeuvring. It’s funny how long Arseblog has avoided saying Wenger is the problem and pointed the finger at Gazidis and now that it’s clear that Wenger is the problem, it’s still Gazidis’s fault for not acting sooner. :lol: With what power and backing if the owner is a fan of the manager and fans scared to point the finger at Wenger but instead pointing it at the Board?

I think there is argument for equal culpability

If we are making the argument that the CEO of a football club like Arsenal has absolutely no authority, than what is he doing at the club?

If he's a good CEO would he not be able to get an equally well paid job elsewhere where he would not have his hands tied?

Whether Wenger is a control freak is a side issue, even Le Grove has questioned why Gazidis has not been able to exert any influence over Kroenke (given the argument is that Wenger can).

Now it could be that Ivan Gazidis is using Wenger's lack of standing with the fans to push for the kind of change he has wanted to impose for a while, but it's equally possible that Wenger doing everything has made his job easier and he stayed quiet until it was clear that as CEO he could no longer stay silent.

He's a PR guy and good at spin......but he's been de facto Wenger's boss longer than Kroenke has been majority share holder and yet at no time has there been any impression of Gazidis imposing any authority over Wenger.

Either way, blaming Gazidis in no way absolves Wenger - on one hand there should be no way his future is in his own hands, it should never be the case with a manager but the manager wants us to shoulder the burden of his fear of retirement. I don't believe for a second he is unaware that his ability is diminished, all he is thinking is i've given the last 20 years to this club and they owe me big time.

[Niall_Quinn]

Umm...



:blink:

Useful conversation going on in this thread and you are doing this? You think one of your smiley responses compensates for the fact there was no mention of Arsenal or specificity to Arsenal in what I said? Or that the implication was plucked out of thin air, by you?

[selassie]

I think there is argument for equal culpability

If we are making the argument that the CEO of a football club like Arsenal has absolutely no authority, than what is he doing at the club?

If he's a good CEO would he not be able to get an equally well paid job elsewhere where he would not have his hands tied?

Whether Wenger is a control freak is a side issue, even Le Grove has questioned why Gazidis has not been able to exert any influence over Kroenke (given the argument is that Wenger can).

Now it could be that Ivan Gazidis is using Wenger's lack of standing with the fans to push for the kind of change he has wanted to impose for a while, but it's equally possible that Wenger doing everything has made his job easier and he stayed quiet until it was clear that as CEO he could no longer stay silent.

He's a PR guy and good at spin......but he's been de facto Wenger's boss longer than Kroenke has been majority share holder and yet at no time has there been any impression of Gazidis imposing any authority over Wenger.

Either way, blaming Gazidis in no way absolves Wenger - on one hand there should be no way his future is in his own hands, it should never be the case with a manager but the manager wants us to shoulder the burden of his fear of retirement. I don't believe for a second he is unaware that his ability is diminished, all he is thinking is i've given the last 20 years to this club and they owe me big time.

I can't claim to have any special information or knowledge about the situation but I do think your first paragraph that I have highlighted regarding Gazidis and Wenger is what is happening. I think there is a political stance to what Gazidis is doing but I genuinely think he also wants change and as such is using the current situation as a catalyst for change.

It is clear that Gazidis/the club are in the market for a Director of Football, Wenger is flat out opposing it and is prickly towards it because he doesn't want it. This to me is Gazidis imposing authority over Wenger and Wenger not accepting it.

Gazidis has many faults...and I've not been overly Impressed with him to be honest, but if the changes he is planning to make go ahead this summer then I'm all for it. We have been linked with some very high profile Directors of Football such as Zorc at Dortmund so that in itself is something positive.

[Power n Glory]

I think there is argument for equal culpability

If we are making the argument that the CEO of a football club like Arsenal has absolutely no authority, than what is he doing at the club?

If he's a good CEO would he not be able to get an equally well paid job elsewhere where he would not have his hands tied?

Whether Wenger is a control freak is a side issue, even Le Grove has questioned why Gazidis has not been able to exert any influence over Kroenke (given the argument is that Wenger can).

Now it could be that Ivan Gazidis is using Wenger's lack of standing with the fans to push for the kind of change he has wanted to impose for a while, but it's equally possible that Wenger doing everything has made his job easier and he stayed quiet until it was clear that as CEO he could no longer stay silent.

He's a PR guy and good at spin......but he's been de facto Wenger's boss longer than Kroenke has been majority share holder and yet at no time has there been any impression of Gazidis imposing any authority over Wenger.

Either way, blaming Gazidis in no way absolves Wenger - on one hand there should be no way his future is in his own hands, it should never be the case with a manager but the manager wants us to shoulder the burden of his fear of retirement. I don't believe for a second he is unaware that his ability is diminished, all he is thinking is i've given the last 20 years to this club and they owe me big time.

It should be a case of equal culpability but I don’t see that happening. We have the technical side of club and then the financial side of thing. We’re now amongst the richest clubs in the world. Top 5. Who takes most of the credit for where we stand as club today financially? Wenger is given more credit for that than anyone else.

On the technical side, Wenger has drawn the line by saying he has overall control and is reluctant to change that. A ‘you do your job but don’t tell me how to do mine’ sort of stance. But it’s Gazidis that’s taken more of the blame for the technical side. We have a flawed set up where it looks like the man with the most footballing knowledge is Wenger. We need more experts and fresh blood in the set up but we have a manger that has the final say on the staff and is often reluctant to change. Has Gazidis been able to push him to make changes? I’d say yes but not far enough.

After years of injuries and topping the table for most injured, who was it that appointed the best in the business, Shad Forsythe, to join our medical staff? It was Gazidis. It was an ongoing problem and despite having to work with it day in day out, we heard piss poor conclusions from Wenger about why the players were constantly out injured and it got to the point where it couldn’t be left with Wenger to fix. We needed outside and not excuses about pitches. The same goes for our Youth Acadmey and Jonker. Gazidis made that appointment but hasn’t ended well because Jonker has moved on since being unable to change the culture. The fact that he was blocked from being able to appoint Henry speaks volumes. Freddie Ljunberg moved on with Jonker! How the heck is that happening when he’s Arsenal?

Need I mention the sponsorship deals and having to push for pre season tours that extend the brand? This stuff hasn’t happened over night and I’m guessing Wenger has dug his heels in for lot of it. But ultimately, it makes no difference if we’re not doing anything to change the first team set up. We’ve seen subtle and slow changes around the club except in one area. It’s definitely not just PR but we’ve gotten worse. Sites like Arseblog have to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop the bullshit and deflecting the attention away from Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

Or, this is all just grandstanding to divide the fans and impair the growth of the anti-Wenger movement. So far we've seen the invisible CEO step up and (through Wenger) appear to be pushing for change. Shame we can't hear that directly from the man himself, but he seems to like his shadows as much as Kroenke does. Then we've had the joyous news we are signing Mbappe or Aubameyang and we'll smash our transfer record (and presumably our wage policies) to do it. And we've had Wenger's switch to a back 3 (or 5, depending who we are playing), showing Wenger is agile and responsive (rather than desperate and out of ideas).

Funny, isn't it. As soon as the protests start gathering pace the sleepy lot in the back offices spring into action. And yet, so far, it's mostly words and precious little action. Even the little action we have seen, the switch in defensive systems, has seen Wenger fuck up big time against the spuds when he screwed around with the team, dropping Holding and recalling Giroud in the process. So I'm not fooled into thinking he's changed his spots. And we still have no official word on whether Wenger plans to stay or go.

In the end, I don't trust anything that comes out of the club and I don't trust the motives of anyone there. Would be nice if there is real change in the offing, but I'll believe it when I see it.

[Letters]

Useful conversation going on in this thread and you are doing this? You think one of your smiley responses compensates for the fact there was no mention of Arsenal or specificity to Arsenal in what I said? Or that the implication was plucked out of thin air, by you?

You said


It will be up to them how the final placings play out. As usual.

And that was in direct response to a post about where we would finish.

[Niall_Quinn]

You said



And that was in direct response to a post about where we would finish.

The bit you've managed to edit out - The biggest influence on this league continues to be referees.

Go and find a Newsthump article to paste - child.

[Letters]

The bit you've managed to edit out - The biggest influence on this league continues to be referees.
The league that Arsenal are in, you mean? When you were responding to a post about where Arsenal will finish?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It should be a case of equal culpability but I don’t see that happening. We have the technical side of club and then the financial side of thing. We’re now amongst the richest clubs in the world. Top 5. Who takes most of the credit for where we stand as club today financially? Wenger is given more credit for that than anyone else.

On the technical side, Wenger has drawn the line by saying he has overall control and is reluctant to change that. A ‘you do your job but don’t tell me how to do mine’ sort of stance. But it’s Gazidis that’s taken more of the blame for the technical side. We have a flawed set up where it looks like the man with the most footballing knowledge is Wenger. We need more experts and fresh blood in the set up but we have a manger that has the final say on the staff and is often reluctant to change. Has Gazidis been able to push him to make changes? I’d say yes but not far enough.

After years of injuries and topping the table for most injured, who was it that appointed the best in the business, Shad Forsythe, to join our medical staff? It was Gazidis. It was an ongoing problem and despite having to work with it day in day out, we heard piss poor conclusions from Wenger about why the players were constantly out injured and it got to the point where it couldn’t be left with Wenger to fix. We needed outside and not excuses about pitches. The same goes for our Youth Acadmey and Jonker. Gazidis made that appointment but hasn’t ended well because Jonker has moved on since being unable to change the culture. The fact that he was blocked from being able to appoint Henry speaks volumes. Freddie Ljunberg moved on with Jonker! How the heck is that happening when he’s Arsenal?

Need I mention the sponsorship deals and having to push for pre season tours that extend the brand? This stuff hasn’t happened over night and I’m guessing Wenger has dug his heels in for lot of it. But ultimately, it makes no difference if we’re not doing anything to change the first team set up. We’ve seen subtle and slow changes around the club except in one area. It’s definitely not just PR but we’ve gotten worse. Sites like Arseblog have to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop the bullshit and deflecting the attention away from Wenger.


I think Arseblog takes the same view that I do, that Wenger is merely an employee at the end of the day. Whatever we say about the omnipresent overlord Stan Kroenke.....there can be no doubt that Wenger doesn't own the club therefore whatever he does, however he behaves.....someone is responsible for him being allowed to get away with it.

It's not unreasonable to ask what kind of Chief Executive has no control over their employee, which leaves us with two possible answers 1) He has been content to take a back seats to proceedings - yes he brought in Shad Forsythe and Wim Jonker but they've been largely unused to the point where Jonker has joined Wolfsburg. It could be that he deems fit only to step in when he thinks the shit is hitting the fan to the point where he has to be seen to act (as i remember Jonker was brought in before Wenger signed his contract extension)

2) He is essentially powerless because Wenger routinely bypasses him and goes direct to Kroenke, well i don't know about you but if i was chomping at the bit to do my job to the fullest but routinely had my hands tied, i don't care how good the money is if I thought I was good enough i would move on. Frankly i tend to feel as much as Kroenke does not want to get rid of Wenger, he takes a very laisse faire approach to any sporting decisions because he is essentially a property magnate and is only concerned with which affects the value of his assets.

Don't get me wrong, if Gazidis is as good as his word and he pushes through the changes we want to see than that's unequivocally good. But the best thing you can say about him still is that he's reactive rather than proactive

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Or, this is all just grandstanding to divide the fans and impair the growth of the anti-Wenger movement. So far we've seen the invisible CEO step up and (through Wenger) appear to be pushing for change. Shame we can't hear that directly from the man himself, but he seems to like his shadows as much as Kroenke does. Then we've had the joyous news we are signing Mbappe or Aubameyang and we'll smash our transfer record (and presumably our wage policies) to do it. And we've had Wenger's switch to a back 3 (or 5, depending who we are playing), showing Wenger is agile and responsive (rather than desperate and out of ideas).

Funny, isn't it. As soon as the protests start gathering pace the sleepy lot in the back offices spring into action. And yet, so far, it's mostly words and precious little action. Even the little action we have seen, the switch in defensive systems, has seen Wenger fuck up big time against the spuds when he screwed around with the team, dropping Holding and recalling Giroud in the process. So I'm not fooled into thinking he's changed his spots. And we still have no official word on whether Wenger plans to stay or go.

In the end, I don't trust anything that comes out of the club and I don't trust the motives of anyone there. Would be nice if there is real change in the offing, but I'll believe it when I see it.

Currently at least, i find myself very sympathetic to that view point.

[GP]

#MAGA

[Letters]

#MAGA

We're going to build a stadium and the fans are going to pay...

[Niall_Quinn]

The league that Arsenal are in, you mean? When you were responding to a post about where Arsenal will finish?

There are no Internet Points in this one. Give it up.

[Letters]

There are no Internet Points in this one. Give it up.
Just picking you up on you contradicting yourself again. :shrug:
Kinda amusing to watch you squirming, changing the subject, doing mental contortions and name calling rather than admitting it though. :d

[selassie]

It should be a case of equal culpability but I don’t see that happening. We have the technical side of club and then the financial side of thing. We’re now amongst the richest clubs in the world. Top 5. Who takes most of the credit for where we stand as club today financially? Wenger is given more credit for that than anyone else.

On the technical side, Wenger has drawn the line by saying he has overall control and is reluctant to change that. A ‘you do your job but don’t tell me how to do mine’ sort of stance. But it’s Gazidis that’s taken more of the blame for the technical side. We have a flawed set up where it looks like the man with the most footballing knowledge is Wenger. We need more experts and fresh blood in the set up but we have a manger that has the final say on the staff and is often reluctant to change. Has Gazidis been able to push him to make changes? I’d say yes but not far enough.

After years of injuries and topping the table for most injured, who was it that appointed the best in the business, Shad Forsythe, to join our medical staff? It was Gazidis. It was an ongoing problem and despite having to work with it day in day out, we heard piss poor conclusions from Wenger about why the players were constantly out injured and it got to the point where it couldn’t be left with Wenger to fix. We needed outside and not excuses about pitches. The same goes for our Youth Acadmey and Jonker. Gazidis made that appointment but hasn’t ended well because Jonker has moved on since being unable to change the culture. The fact that he was blocked from being able to appoint Henry speaks volumes. Freddie Ljunberg moved on with Jonker! How the heck is that happening when he’s Arsenal?

Need I mention the sponsorship deals and having to push for pre season tours that extend the brand? This stuff hasn’t happened over night and I’m guessing Wenger has dug his heels in for lot of it. But ultimately, it makes no difference if we’re not doing anything to change the first team set up. We’ve seen subtle and slow changes around the club except in one area. It’s definitely not just PR but we’ve gotten worse. Sites like Arseblog have to wake up and smell the coffee. Stop the bullshit and deflecting the attention away from Wenger.

:gp:

[Niall_Quinn]

Just picking you up on you contradicting yourself again. :shrug:
Kinda amusing to watch you squirming, changing the subject, doing mental contortions and name calling rather than admitting it though. :d

Pratt.

[fakeyank]

Of course it’s political manoeuvring. It’s funny how long Arseblog has avoided saying Wenger is the problem and pointed the finger at Gazidis and now that it’s clear that Wenger is the problem, it’s still Gazidis’s fault for not acting sooner. :lol: With what power and backing if the owner is a fan of the manager and fans scared to point the finger at Wenger but instead pointing it at the Board?

Arseblog is a humungous c*nt. Dont follow that idiot anymore. He is probably a spurs fan.

[Power n Glory]

I think Arseblog takes the same view that I do, that Wenger is merely an employee at the end of the day. Whatever we say about the omnipresent overlord Stan Kroenke.....there can be no doubt that Wenger doesn't own the club therefore whatever he does, however he behaves.....someone is responsible for him being allowed to get away with it.

It's not unreasonable to ask what kind of Chief Executive has no control over their employee, which leaves us with two possible answers 1) He has been content to take a back seats to proceedings - yes he brought in Shad Forsythe and Wim Jonker but they've been largely unused to the point where Jonker has joined Wolfsburg. It could be that he deems fit only to step in when he thinks the shit is hitting the fan to the point where he has to be seen to act (as i remember Jonker was brought in before Wenger signed his contract extension)

2) He is essentially powerless because Wenger routinely bypasses him and goes direct to Kroenke, well i don't know about you but if i was chomping at the bit to do my job to the fullest but routinely had my hands tied, i don't care how good the money is if I thought I was good enough i would move on. Frankly i tend to feel as much as Kroenke does not want to get rid of Wenger, he takes a very laisse faire approach to any sporting decisions because he is essentially a property magnate and is only concerned with which affects the value of his assets.

Don't get me wrong, if Gazidis is as good as his word and he pushes through the changes we want to see than that's unequivocally good. But the best thing you can say about him still is that he's reactive rather than proactive

You guys aren’t paying attention if that’s your assessment. No need to even mention Stan. We already know his position and how much he admires Wenger. The focus is on Ivan and let’s also remember that Wenger hired his own boss.

If Ivan were happily taking a back seat, we wouldn’t be amongst the richest clubs in the world. That’s not the sort of plan you can ramble up overnight as some sort of PR cover story. When taking this job, knowing our situation with the new stadium, the plan was to build a self-sustaining club that can compete with our rivals. I’d say we’ve stepped up notch in terms of finances and brand but it’s a different story on the pitch. As a CEO, Ivan should be asking Wenger what he needs from the club to win the league. Wenger has often said that lack of resources and injuries have stopped us winning the league. He can’t use the money excuse anymore and we’ve invested in our medical staff and equipment to help with the injuries. There aren’t many excuses left or directions to point now.

Last season we should have won the league. Wenger, with all his usual arrogance, decided to only sign one outfield player in the summer and it backfired in spectacular fashion. Keep in mind his usual bluster about ‘buying not being the only answer’. That’s the message he was putting out. Fast forward, he’s now the squad needs strengthening and that comes off the back of us blowing money on Xhaka, Mustafi and Perez. He’s now saying we need to improve our scouting network and could have signed Griezemann, Kante and Mbappe earlier if we acted quicker. Are you buying any of that? He’ll continue this song and dance forever and from the sounds of it, Ivan’s not buying the bullshit but doesn’t have the power or backing to fire him.

[Niall_Quinn]

Nothing has really changed in terms of the finances. We've been behind the pace again. You don't see us up there seriously competing for players the big clubs want. We have more money, but then again so does everyone. I'd say the board has underperformed in terms of football investment and, as always, over performed in terms of what really matters to them - the underlying worth of the club. Their focus is on themselves, not on the club.

[Power n Glory]

Nothing has really changed in terms of the finances. We've been behind the pace again. You don't see us up there seriously competing for players the big clubs want. We have more money, but then again so does everyone. I'd say the board has underperformed in terms of football investment and, as always, over performed in terms of what really matters to them - the underlying worth of the club. Their focus is on themselves, not on the club.

You falling for the okie doke? Wenger is in the press saying we could have brought Kante and Griezmann earlier. How much have we spent this summer and how much did both players sell for recently?

It's Wenger's decision not to spend on those players. Resources aren't the problem.

[Globalgunner]

Without having to repeat what everyone probably knows already. Wenger is as deluded as the muppet currently in the White House. He is so full of himself he deliberately avoids buying top named players. Most likely he feels buying these players will make it less about him and more down to the players when we win things. He prefers to show to those watching that he can do with 2nd grade players what other clubs are doing with top shelf stars. Thats why he loves to brag about the players he never signed. "I could have bought him but xyz happened" However see what we have achieved with Giroud and Coquelin. 2 maybe 3 FA cups in 3 years.

[Niall_Quinn]

You falling for the okie doke? Wenger is in the press saying we could have brought Kante and Griezmann earlier. How much have we spent this summer and how much did both players sell for recently?

It's Wenger's decision not to spend on those players. Resources aren't the problem.

I'm saying, this club would rather have a strong balance sheet than a strong team sheet. That has been the case for a long time. Only one area where we are world beaters - return on investment.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You guys aren’t paying attention if that’s your assessment. No need to even mention Stan. We already know his position and how much he admires Wenger. The focus is on Ivan and let’s also remember that Wenger hired his own boss.

If Ivan were happily taking a back seat, we wouldn’t be amongst the richest clubs in the world. That’s not the sort of plan you can ramble up overnight as some sort of PR cover story. When taking this job, knowing our situation with the new stadium, the plan was to build a self-sustaining club that can compete with our rivals. I’d say we’ve stepped up notch in terms of finances and brand but it’s a different story on the pitch. As a CEO, Ivan should be asking Wenger what he needs from the club to win the league. Wenger has often said that lack of resources and injuries have stopped us winning the league. He can’t use the money excuse anymore and we’ve invested in our medical staff and equipment to help with the injuries. There aren’t many excuses left or directions to point now.

Last season we should have won the league. Wenger, with all his usual arrogance, decided to only sign one outfield player in the summer and it backfired in spectacular fashion. Keep in mind his usual bluster about ‘buying not being the only answer’. That’s the message he was putting out. Fast forward, he’s now the squad needs strengthening and that comes off the back of us blowing money on Xhaka, Mustafi and Perez. He’s now saying we need to improve our scouting network and could have signed Griezemann, Kante and Mbappe earlier if we acted quicker. Are you buying any of that? He’ll continue this song and dance forever and from the sounds of it, Ivan’s not buying the bullshit but doesn’t have the power or backing to fire him.

We were one of the richest clubs in the world before Ivan Gazidis joined us.

Qualifying for the champions league season upon season on relatively low expenditure, high ticket prices (especially for season tickets) has maximised the clubs cash flow. Now I don't think any CEO could have made us as big as the size of Man United and Real Madrid, but their respective kit sponsorship with Addidas dwarves ours with Puma by some way and Addidas flatly turned us down in terms of what we were asking for, which is due to our lack of success on the field.

So you have a point there where lack of success on the field is hindering us from making more money off the field, so again if he is a CEO letting Wenger have carte Blanche shows either complacency or weakness on his part.

Either way you look at it, he is Wengers boss if you are having to accept you have no power over him, you shouldn't be at the club not if you are a man of ambition anyway.

[Power n Glory]

We were one of the richest clubs in the world before Ivan Gazidis joined us.

Qualifying for the champions league season upon season on relatively low expenditure, high ticket prices (especially for season tickets) has maximised the clubs cash flow. Now I don't think any CEO could have made us as big as the size of Man United and Real Madrid, but their respective kit sponsorship with Addidas dwarves ours with Puma by some way and Addidas flatly turned us down in terms of what we were asking for, which is due to our lack of success on the field.

So you have a point there where lack of success on the field is hindering us from making more money off the field, so again if he is a CEO letting Wenger have carte Blanche shows either complacency or weakness on his part.

Either way you look at it, he is Wengers boss if you are having to accept you have no power over him, you shouldn't be at the club not if you are a man of ambition anyway.

That's a poor argument. You can't apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger's ambition just because Gazidis has no power over Wenger. His role as a CEO isn't to exert power of Wenger just for his ego. He was appointed to help grow the club as a business so we have the resources to compete at the top level. Also, let's put things into perspective, at which other club have you heard the CEO giving the manager their marching orders?

Also, the sponsorship deals were good for what they were at the time and what has enabled us to buy Ozil, Sanchez and Xhaka. Since the sponsorship deals, we've broken our transfer record and can comfortably match that record again and again. And of course Man Utd and Real Madrid's sponsorship deals are going to dwarf ours. You're giving examples of two of the most successful clubs in the history of football. Some perspective is needed here.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's a poor argument. You can't apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger's ambition just because Gazidis has no power over Wenger. His role as a CEO isn't to exert power of Wenger just for his ego. He was appointed to help grow the club as a business so we have the resources to compete at the top level. Also, let's put things into perspective, at which other club have you heard the CEO giving the manager their marching orders?

Also, the sponsorship deals were good for what they were at the time and what has enabled us to buy Ozil, Sanchez and Xhaka. Since the sponsorship deals, we've broken our transfer record and can comfortably match that record again and again. And of course Man Utd and Real Madrid's sponsorship deals are going to dwarf ours. You're giving examples of two of the most successful clubs in the history of football. Some perspective is needed here.

Its not about ego it's about asserting influence over a man we both agree has too much control of things from a footballing perspective.
We talk about the influence Dein was able to exert over Wenger and largely as well as maximising profits for the club Gazidis' role is meant to be that of a leader answerable only to a board of directors (or more likely Majority share holder).

Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

Like I say if his attempt to Make Wenger work with a director of football is more than just words, than fair enough I personally think he's allowed the situation to get to the point of unsustainability but yes at least doing something about it now.

But we will know what kind of man he is if nothing changes and he is still here next season.

[Power n Glory]

Its not about ego it's about asserting influence over a man we both agree has too much control of things from a footballing perspective.
We talk about the influence Dein was able to exert over Wenger and largely as well as maximising profits for the club Gazidis' role is meant to be that of a leader answerable only to a board of directors (or more likely Majority share holder).

Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

Like I say if his attempt to Make Wenger work with a director of football is more than just words, than fair enough I personally think he's allowed the situation to get to the point of unsustainability but yes at least doing something about it now.

But we will know what kind of man he is if nothing changes and he is still here next season.

You know this already. :lol:

Or I assumed you did. It’s been discussed on here plenty of times. Wenger hired his own boss. Gazidis may have the same title as David Dein but he didn’t inherit the same sort of stature. Dein hired Wenger. Dein was a shareholder of the club so the dynamic was totally different. He was an owner as well as some actively involved with the day to day running.



Now either Gazidis cannot keep Wenger under control or he has largely been content to give him all that control.

For you to draw that sort of conclusion, you’d have to understand the role of a Chief Executive and what was agreed when he was hired. Was Gazidis given the power to fire Wenger? Does it sound like he has the authority to? In most football set ups I’ve seen where a club has a majority owner, the hiring and firing are done by the owner.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You know this already. :lol:

Or I assumed you did. It’s been discussed on here plenty of times. Wenger hired his own boss. Gazidis may have the same title as David Dein but he didn’t inherit the same sort of stature. Dein hired Wenger. Dein was a shareholder of the club so the dynamic was totally different. He was an owner as well as some actively involved with the day to day running.



For you to draw that sort of conclusion, you’d have to understand the role of a Chief Executive and what was agreed when he was hired. Was Gazidis given the power to fire Wenger? Does it sound like he has the authority to? In most football set ups I’ve seen where a club has a majority owner, the hiring and firing are done by the owner.

Again first of all we aren't talking about hiring and firing Wenger, we are talking about exerting influence over him

Yes of course I appreciate that Wenger sat in on the interview to hire the person who is his boss, but that's what a CEO is at the end of the day the Chief Executive is still the Manager's boss, so again I make the point to you this is someone who has either accepted that his role comes with diminished capacity (which would be odd as he became chief executive before Kroenke became majority share holder) or he hasn't been able to exert any influence over Kroenke to bring in the changes he wants to see when they have been against Wenger's wishes.

So either way Gazidis in my view does not come out of this inertia looking particularly effective.

However the true test of whether i'm right or wrong will be after the season has ended. If regardless of where we finish and whether we win the FA cup or not...Gazidis is either able to force the ultimatum on Wenger that he accepts a new management setup or he walks than fine, but if he's still in post and nothing has changed with Wenger then I'm sorry he's weak and incompetent..

[Power n Glory]

Again first of all we aren't talking about hiring and firing Wenger, we are talking about exerting influence over him

Yes of course I appreciate that Wenger sat in on the interview to hire the person who is his boss, but that's what a CEO is at the end of the day the Chief Executive is still the Manager's boss, so again I make the point to you this is someone who has either accepted that his role comes with diminished capacity (which would be odd as he became chief executive before Kroenke became majority share holder) or he hasn't been able to exert any influence over Kroenke to bring in the changes he wants to see when they have been against Wenger's wishes.

So either way Gazidis in my view does not come out of this inertia looking particularly effective.

However the true test of whether i'm right or wrong will be after the season has ended. If regardless of where we finish and whether we win the FA cup or not...Gazidis is either able to force the ultimatum on Wenger that he accepts a new management setup or he walks than fine, but if he's still in post and nothing has changed with Wenger then I'm sorry he's weak and incompetent..


Elaborate on that point. How much more besides the Director of Football thing can Ivan push on?

Last point, Kroenke wasn’t the owner when Gazidis came on Board, but Wenger was manager and doing Ivan’s job as Chief Executive. My guess is that it’s always been a collaborative relationship but Wenger having more power since he’s the one that ‘built’ the club with his bare hands.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Elaborate on that point. How much more besides the Director of Football thing can Ivan push on?

Last point, Kroenke wasn’t the owner when Gazidis came on Board, but Wenger was manager and doing Ivan’s job as Chief Executive. My guess is that it’s always been a collaborative relationship but Wenger having more power since he’s the one that ‘built’ the club with his bare hands.

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

[Niall_Quinn]

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

That's not the job of the CEO and it would be stepping way over the line. It would be the same as pushing Wenger out. Not that I'm against it in this one instance, but it would be a dangerous precedent for the next guy to live with. And do we want a snake like Gazidis replacing Wenger as the all-singing, all-dancing dictator?

What needs to happen is for Gazidis to sit down with Kroenke and explain why he, the CEO, feels it is time for the manager to walk. That takes care of the coaching problem in the proper way. If he hasn't already done that then we can put to bed the idea Gazidis is trying to force Wenger out. If he has done it then it can only be assumed Kroenke has backed Wenger, in which case Gazidis is out.

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion. What have you done for me lately works both ways. Then we'll settle down for more of the same. The money will flow in and Kroenke can use the club to underpin his real ambition, property deals in LA.

[Power n Glory]

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

That's just entertaining the wild goose chase Wenger is sending everyone on. It's just another addition to an already long list of changes seen at the club. A quick rundown of what’s changed or been introduced.

- Transfers

- New Assistant Manager

- GPS Vests to measure fatigue of players in training to try and prevent injuries.

- Stat DNA to help with transfers

- New Sponsorship money

- Appointing Dick Law

- New Academy coach

- New Scouts

- New Youth Academy Coach

- New Medical staff

No point in providing the resources if the manager has no idea how best to use them. We see that in how money is wasted on transfers and even down to the GPS vest investment. How many times has Wenger said he's having to play a player that's in the 'red zone' and suffering from fatigue? Jonker has left and I just read that Wenger will 'help' to appoint a new coach that has 'Arsenal values'. From what I've read, Jonker wanted put a stop to handing out contracts to just any player and wanted a stricter culture where youngsters had to work harder and that was rubbing folks the wrong way.

Gazidis hasn't been effective and unless he gets the backing from our owner to fire Wenger, the same shite will continue. If Gazidis moves on, we'll only see an even weaker version appointed. Another yes man.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's just entertaining the wild goose chase Wenger is sending everyone on. It's just another addition to an already long list of changes seen at the club. A quick rundown of what’s changed or been introduced.

- Transfers

- New Assistant Manager

- GPS Vests to measure fatigue of players in training to try and prevent injuries.

- Stat DNA to help with transfers

- New Sponsorship money

- Appointing Dick Law

- New Academy coach

- New Scouts

- New Youth Academy Coach

- New Medical staff

No point in providing the resources if the manager has no idea how best to use them. We see that in how money is wasted on transfers and even down to the GPS vest investment. How many times has Wenger said he's having to play a player that's in the 'red zone' and suffering from fatigue? Jonker has left and I just read that Wenger will 'help' to appoint a new coach that has 'Arsenal values'. From what I've read, Jonker wanted put a stop to handing out contracts to just any player and wanted a stricter culture where youngsters had to work harder and that was rubbing folks the wrong way.

Gazidis hasn't been effective and unless he gets the backing from our owner to fire Wenger, the same shite will continue. If Gazidis moves on, we'll only see an even weaker version appointed. Another yes man.

If Gazidis stays having not put any constraints on Wenger as a result of meetings post the end of the season than he is a yes man himself

Wenger has already stated he doesn't want a director of football, if this isn't forced upon him than we know Gazidis has no leverage in his role and if he stays on after that, i'd have to question his self-respect.

[Power n Glory]

If Gazidis stays having not put any constraints on Wenger as a result of meetings post the end of the season than he is a yes man himself

Wenger has already stated he doesn't want a director of football, if this isn't forced upon him than we know Gazidis has no leverage in his role and if he stays on after that, i'd have to question his self-respect.

We've already established he has no leverage. Self respect? I get that you're playing devils advocate but explain the logic behind that. It feels like you're trying to apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger lacking pride when it comes to his Arsenal record. The same rules don't apply to a suit like Gazidis. He doesn't claim to love the club, he's not a sportsman where the most important accolade should be the trophies. He's a businessman. He'll continue to collect his pay under a difficult manager until a more lucrative offer comes along. What else are you expecting?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

We've already established he has no leverage. Self respect? I get that you're playing devils advocate but explain the logic behind that. It feels like you're trying to apply a similar argument I've made about Wenger lacking pride when it comes to his Arsenal record. The same rules don't apply to a suit like Gazidis. He doesn't claim to love the club, he's not a sportsman where the most important accolade should be the trophies. He's a businessman. He'll continue to collect his pay under a difficult manager until a more lucrative offer comes along. What else are you expecting?

But you are I feel (and i could be wrong) working under the understanding that i am in anyway excusing Wenger

I don't think there is any argument against Wenger wanting to stay shows a lack of professional pride on his part

It's not about love for the club with Gazidis, it's about having respect for your own reputation.....basically the perception is that he's a puppet with no power in his role, if he stays in his role having failed to achieve any restrain on Wenger than I would say the lack of professional pride also applies to him.

And frankly if he's that good at his job, presumably he'd want to go somewhere where he can effect more change than he can with us.

[selassie]

Well Shad Forsythe and Jonker were brought in by Gazidis and it would appear neither were utilised by Wenger

I would elaborate by saying that Wenger's current coaching set up that has been there as long as Wenger in many cases Gerry Peyton, Boro Primorac etc and the coaching staff needs a shake up....they are all coming to the end of their contracts and Gazidis should insist that if Wenger is resolute about changing he needs to part ways with them.

I was under the impression this is happening now? Gazidis has already come out and said this seasons performance could be a catalyst for change, he has yet to publically refute this. There has also been numerous links to Directors Of Football and strong rumours of Peyton & Primorac not being renewed. It seems to me that Gazidis is doing all he can to initiate change in terms of the technical side.

[Letters]

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion.
I know a couple of people who are Wenger Inners - I don't like this "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense, do we need to go out of our way to be divisive and split ourselves into sub-tribes?
And a 3rd said to me today that if we finish top 4 and win the Cup he'd give him one more season.
As you know I've been more patient than most but even I have snapped this season after yet another year without a serious title challenge and our perennial embarrassment in Europe.
I find it baffling that anyone would want him to stay now.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I was under the impression this is happening now? Gazidis has already come out and said this seasons performance could be a catalyst for change, he has yet to publically refute this. There has also been numerous links to Directors Of Football and strong rumours of Peyton & Primorac not being renewed. It seems to me that Gazidis is doing all he can to initiate change in terms of the technical side.

At the moment it's just words....Gazidis has also stated we would be up there competing on the same level as Bayern Munich, and claimed that it was the fans who would decide Wenger's fate.....so it remains to be seen whether this is more PR intended to mollify people.

It's not exactly like he or the club have ever been that straight up with us.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I know a couple of people who are Wenger Inners - I don't like this "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense, do we need to go out of our way to be divisive and split ourselves into sub-tribes?
And a 3rd said to me today that if we finish top 4 and win the Cup he'd give him one more season.
As you know I've been more patient than most but even I have snapped this season after yet another year without a serious title challenge and our perennial embarrassment in Europe.
I find it baffling that anyone would want him to stay now.

People are very tribal by nature, we see it in politics

Unfortunately i think NQ could have a point, I think a top 4 and an fa cup win would massively turn the tables in Wenger's favour.

Whether we finish in the top four or not will be decided this weekend, we have to win at Stoke and rely on West Ham to get something against Liverpool

That's two very big things that have to go for us, we haven't won at the Britannia since 2010 of course they don't have much to play for, but their fans hate us and Wenger....we have an appalling record away to sides managed by Mark Hughes.

And we have to hope West Ham are sufficiently motivated to beat or draw with Liverpool when they are safe themselves

As for the FA cup final, yes it's a one off game on neutral ground and anything could happen, but Chelsea are a better side than us with a better manager than us and that makes them strong favourites.

[Letters]

Yes, but the tribe should be Arsenal. We shouldn't be in-fighting. I'm baffled by people wanting Wenger to stay but I wouldn't paint them as "AKB", I'm sure they understand that things could be going better.
We hadn't won at Southampton for ages either, and slipping up is Liverpool's thing. I'm starting to think it's going to happen :lol:
I don't think we'll win the FA Cup though.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yes, but the tribe should be Arsenal. We shouldn't be in-fighting. I'm baffled by people wanting Wenger to stay but I wouldn't paint them as "AKB", I'm sure they understand that things could be going better.
We hadn't won at Southampton for ages either, and slipping up is Liverpool's thing. I'm starting to think it's going to happen :lol:
I don't think we'll win the FA Cup though.

For Wenger it seems to be certain managers rather than clubs he cannot best, but who knows he'd never beaten Mourinho in the league before Sunday.

I blame the club for this schism, at the end of the day if many fans have been pushed to the point where they can see the benefit of us losing games if it pushes Wenger out than who is to blame for that. I don't enjoy watching us play any more, but it's an addiction you can't break yourself from.

I want to go back to the time where I would really look forward to us playing, but apparently that to other fans makes me entitled.

[Power n Glory]

But you are I feel (and i could be wrong) working under the understanding that i am in anyway excusing Wenger

I don't think there is any argument against Wenger wanting to stay shows a lack of professional pride on his part

It's not about love for the club with Gazidis, it's about having respect for your own reputation.....basically the perception is that he's a puppet with no power in his role, if he stays in his role having failed to achieve any restrain on Wenger than I would say the lack of professional pride also applies to him.

And frankly if he's that good at his job, presumably he'd want to go somewhere where he can effect more change than he can with us.

I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. I’ve listened to similar views expressed here, on podcasts and blogs like Aresblog and just think a poor argument is being presented with little evidence. For example, I can’t understand why people are placing so much importance on Gazidis making a show in public with another statement. He’s already said his piece and hinted at a change in both of them. What else is expected from Mr PR? He’s not going to come out and out right say Wenger has to go and he’ll only be criticised if he backs the manager. But that’s another argument.

Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.

[Power n Glory]

That's not the job of the CEO and it would be stepping way over the line. It would be the same as pushing Wenger out. Not that I'm against it in this one instance, but it would be a dangerous precedent for the next guy to live with. And do we want a snake like Gazidis replacing Wenger as the all-singing, all-dancing dictator?

What needs to happen is for Gazidis to sit down with Kroenke and explain why he, the CEO, feels it is time for the manager to walk. That takes care of the coaching problem in the proper way. If he hasn't already done that then we can put to bed the idea Gazidis is trying to force Wenger out. If he has done it then it can only be assumed Kroenke has backed Wenger, in which case Gazidis is out.

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion. What have you done for me lately works both ways. Then we'll settle down for more of the same. The money will flow in and Kroenke can use the club to underpin his real ambition, property deals in LA.

A really good point made and it is a dangerous precedent. It shouldn't be a case of suits with no football experience forcing such decisions.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I think you’re just playing devil’s advocate. I’ve listened to similar views expressed here, on podcasts and blogs like Aresblog and just think a poor argument is being presented with little evidence. For example, I can’t understand why people are placing so much importance on Gazidis making a show in public with another statement. He’s already said his piece and hinted at a change in both of them. What else is expected from Mr PR? He’s not going to come out and out right say Wenger has to go and he’ll only be criticised if he backs the manager. But that’s another argument.

Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.

As a CEO yes marketing and improved figures are a big part of your role, but compare us to Bayern Munich for instance who charge their fans nowhere near the amount we do (yes that's partly because of where we are based) but they are richer than us because they make up that difference through marketing which they are able to do by sustained long term success. I don't think Karl Heinz Rummenige would get much truck saying...sorry the shareholders are happy with the manager because even though we aren't as rich as we could be, and the on field success is pretty mediocre...the share values are pretty good because of tv money etc.

Take away the recent sponsorship deals and most of the money we make is from gate receipts, tv money and champions league money and in the recent past player sales.

I don't understand how you think it would not harm Gazidis' reputation that after promising change to fans he is unable to deliver anything, and how you think it would damage it if he was able to say I have joined another organisation which matches my ambitions for expansion.

What i am saying is that there isn't any outstanding evidence for Gazidis being a particularly effective CEO, and being able to influence the change of football structure around Arsene Wenger (I take it we both agree that there is no chance of Wenger leaving in the summer) might go some way to proving his detractors wrong.

I have never once claimed about Gazidis firing Wenger, but a CEO expands the business by leadership and influencing the working practices of those it is their job to manage. It seems now the method Gazidis has chosen to do this is by trying to install a director of football....and his effectiveness within his job will be shown in his ability to convince Kroenke of the necessity for such a role to exist despite Wenger's protestations.

[Power n Glory]

As a CEO yes marketing and improved figures are a big part of your role, but compare us to Bayern Munich for instance who charge their fans nowhere near the amount we do (yes that's partly because of where we are based) but they are richer than us because they make up that difference through marketing which they are able to do by sustained long term success. I don't think Karl Heinz Rummenige would get much truck saying...sorry the shareholders are happy with the manager because even though we aren't as rich as we could be, and the on field success is pretty mediocre...the share values are pretty good because of tv money etc.

Take away the recent sponsorship deals and most of the money we make is from gate receipts, tv money and champions league money and in the recent past player sales.

I don't understand how you think it would not harm Gazidis' reputation that after promising change to fans he is unable to deliver anything, and how you think it would damage it if he was able to say I have joined another organisation which matches my ambitions for expansion.

What i am saying is that there isn't any outstanding evidence for Gazidis being a particularly effective CEO, and being able to influence the change of football structure around Arsene Wenger (I take it we both agree that there is no chance of Wenger leaving in the summer) might go some way to proving his detractors wrong.

I have never once claimed about Gazidis firing Wenger, but a CEO expands the business by leadership and influencing the working practices of those it is their job to manage. It seems now the method Gazidis has chosen to do this is by trying to install a director of football....and his effectiveness within his job will be shown in his ability to convince Kroenke of the necessity for such a role to exist despite Wenger's protestations.

You're not paying attention.


Do you think if Gazidis applies for another job they’ll be judging him on how he’s handled Wenger? An old man that feels he’s built the club with his bare hands and knows better than everyone else? I’d say having a public fall out with the manager and not being able to work with him goes against his reputation. In the era where managers feel like they’re the superstar, I doubt it effects his reputation on a professional level. The owners do the hiring and firing. The balance figures and revenue generated are what counts for or against his reputation. How he manages other members of staff and the new ideas implemented will be the main things. I highly doubt it will knock his reputation and if it were, leaving the club right now would be the dumbest move he could make. He’d be leaving with his tail between his legs.

I don't know how Bayern view him and you're shifting goal posts slightly. Good or bad, how he's managed the books and ideas he's implemented is what he'll be judged on. Your personal opinion on the job he's done, or my opinion on how he's done isn't really relevant.

[Marc Overmars]

Or, this is just one big pile of bullshit and they are all still singing from the same sheet and keeping their hands clasped in prayer that we'll tumble into the top 4 by season's end. That will be seized upon as success and they'll probably get away with it. Add a cup to that and I can see many fans reversing their opinion.

Absolutely. Despite the backlash this year I think the majority of fans are still afraid of change and will accept any crumb of comfort as a turning point. Stockholm Syndrome?

They say no one is bigger than the club but in our case one individual is.

Top 4 and winning the cup would be a bitter-sweet pill to swallow. I'm ready for change and for our club to move on to the next chapter of its history. Being stuck with that dinosaur is holding us back big time, to the point where you can barely even live in hope of anything changing for the better.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I was speaking to a Chelsea fan last night. He asked me if I was Wenger in or out. When I replied he said he reckoned in his experience about 80% of us are Wenger out.

I reckon he isn't a million miles away in terms of assessment. Amongst my friends in Canada that are Arsenal supporters, all two of them are Wenger out and my neighbor down the road has recently seen the light and is firmly in the out camp.

I do think a cup win and a top 4 finish will sway some, but not many. There have simply been too many humiliating experiences that have been coming with increasing frequency.

A tipping point has been passed and you only need to look at the gaps in the stadium for home games to see that. It isn't hurting the team financially yet as many of those gaps have been paid for by non attendees, but that will change and soon if this malaise that is turning off fans continues.

Even that guy, Ty doesn't look like he believes what he is saying anymore.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

You're not paying attention.



I don't know how Bayern view him and you're shifting goal posts slightly. Good or bad, how he's managed the books and ideas he's implemented is what he'll be judged on. Your personal opinion on the job he's done, or my opinion on how he's done isn't really relevant.

My argument is that our good financial status is more based on champions league qualification, gate receipts and tv money rather than anything he's done in terms of commercial deals.

And as this states the commercial revenue has been very flat of late, our latest profit statement has been based on the amount we get through tv money

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2667440-ivan-gazidis-receives-1m-arsenal-bonus-despite-lack-of-silverware-in-2015-16

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I was speaking to a Chelsea fan last night. He asked me if I was Wenger in or out. When I replied he said he reckoned in his experience about 80% of us are Wenger out.

I reckon he isn't a million miles away in terms of assessment. Amongst my friends in Canada that are Arsenal supporters, all two of them are Wenger out and my neighbor down the road has recently seen the light and is firmly in the out camp.

I do think a cup win and a top 4 finish will sway some, but not many. There have simply been too many humiliating experiences that have been coming with increasing frequency.

A tipping point has been passed and you only need to look at the gaps in the stadium for home games to see that. It isn't hurting the team financially yet as many of those gaps have been paid for by non attendees, but that will change and soon if this malaise that is turning off fans continues.

Even that guy, Ty doesn't look like he believes what he is saying anymore.

The Gunners fanzine which i have posted a lot on here claim it's about 85% but that this could be a fluid level because the 85% is divided evenly between those who think it's time for him to go but won't protest and those who want him out and are willing to protest.

[Power n Glory]

My argument is that our good financial status is more based on champions league qualification, gate receipts and tv money rather than anything he's done in terms of commercial deals.

And as this states the commercial revenue has been very flat of late, our latest profit statement has been based on the amount we get through tv money

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2667440-ivan-gazidis-receives-1m-arsenal-bonus-despite-lack-of-silverware-in-2015-16

But you're switching goalposts.


It's not about love for the club with Gazidis, it's about having respect for your own reputation.....basically the perception is that he's a puppet with no power in his role, if he stays in his role having failed to achieve any restrain on Wenger than I would say the lack of professional pride also applies to him.

And frankly if he's that good at his job, presumably he'd want to go somewhere where he can effect more change than he can with us.

As for your argument about our revenue stream, we signed Ozil before the TV deal money. Expectations changed when we signed that Puma deal. But now I think you're clutching at straws for another debate.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

No i'm just saying that there is no strong evidence that this guy is anything special, certainly when one considers he is one of the highest paid CEO's in the league

Look I am glad that he said what he did, but actions speak louder than and I hope that is more than words

[Power n Glory]

No i'm just saying that there is no strong evidence that this guy is anything special, certainly when one considers he is one of the highest paid CEO's in the league

Look I am glad that he said what he did, but actions speak louder than and I hope that is more than words

I don't think he's anything special either. That's not my argument or point I'm making. In fact, didn't you look back on Gazidis's time before joining Arsenal and say he was successful or something along those lines? So what exactly has changed over the last 3 months?

Action speak louder than words which is why I've made a point of listing what he's done and not just gone on words. I'm not saying he's exceptional,just saying he seems to be pushing more for change than the manager, which is embarrassing.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I don't think he's anything special either. That's not my argument or point I'm making. In fact, didn't you look back on Gazidis's time before joining Arsenal and say he was successful or something along those lines? So what exactly has changed over the last 3 months?

Action speak louder than words which is why I've made a point of listing what he's done and not just gone on words. I'm not saying he's exceptional,just saying he seems to be pushing more for change than the manager, which is embarrassing.

So like in most instances we are talking at cross purposes

My big concern is that this is all big talk from Gazidis. He spoke out when he knew he could not afford to stay silent

Interesting thing listening to the Le grove podcast today, is that they have speculated that the DOF talk has been leaked by Gazidis exactly to prompt the kind of reaction from Wenger that it has, and to expose his own talk of wanting to change things as being totally insubstantial.

I don't know if Wenger would fall for something like that. His statements suggest that he knows something or is playing high stakes poker by saying I'll get 4th and the cup and I'll keep things as they are.

Of course Wenger doesn't want change, he's 65+ who wants change when you're that age.

It's lack of alternative interests that's the big concern, if he like Donald Trump was into golf and young foreign girls he'd be off.

[Niall_Quinn]

I think Wenger always loses his rag when is authority or expertise is questioned. His reaction to the DoF questioning showed a loss of control and a lack of political awareness, if indeed this is political on the part of Gazidis.

[Niall_Quinn]

An addendum to Wenger's comments that I read yesterday were even more interesting than the DoF stuff. Can't find the damn article at the moment, but I will. He openly said he's not going to change after all these years. And ended with another, "That's it!"

[Power n Glory]

But you were saying something about Gazidis doing a good job in the states and possibly being hampered by Wenger. What's changed over the last few months?

Back to the statement thing...have you forgotten when he made a statement in October?


"Arsenal is not Arsene Wenger. They're not one and the same thing," Gazidis said. "What Arsene has done is to capture and understand and embrace the values of the club and enhance them."

The CEO added: "In a football sense, he has transformed the club. But I think from a value standpoint, we've been doing work in our local community for 30 years, before Arsene Wenger came to the club."

Nothing was forced.

But dig up what you said about his time in the US otherwise we're just talking in circles.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

But you were saying something about Gazidis doing a good job in the states and possibly being hampered by Wenger. What's changed over the last few months?

Back to the statement thing...have you forgotten when he made a statement in October?



Nothing was forced.

But dig up what you said about his time in the US otherwise we're just talking in circles.

Was that directed at NQ or me?

If i recall what i stated was that Gazidis was one of the founding executives behind the MLS which I then went on to say means that despite the media insisting that Wenger is the only one at the club with any footballing knowledge that Gazidis does have reasonably extensive knowledge on the game as well.

[Power n Glory]

I think Wenger always loses his rag when is authority or expertise is questioned. His reaction to the DoF questioning showed a loss of control and a lack of political awareness, if indeed this is political on the part of Gazidis.

Been saying that for a while and it would always annoy me when pundits would say someone needs to step in and 'help' Arsene. He doesn't want it and this is another example of him getting tetchy when challenged. Hence why we haven't got coaches around to challenge him and why he doesn't encourage former players to join him.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Been saying that for a while and it would always annoy me when pundits would say someone needs to step in and 'help' Arsene. He doesn't want it and this is another example of him getting tetchy when challenged. Hence why we haven't got coaches around to challenge him and why he doesn't encourage former players to join him.

He's an arrogant old fossil who believes he is Atlas at Arsenal, but he's been deified by his employers and that was the case before Kroenke became Lord and master. Even in the media there are still sections that think the fans are ungrateful toe rags for not appreciating everything he's done for us, and I'm not sure all of that is PR put out by the club. Some see what he brings as stability, in terms of our league finishes for sure but the football management is chaotic and we do benefit quite a lot from the charity of those around us.

Despite the money placed into it, this isn't an especially impressive league and certainly has very little to show on the European stage in the last two or three seasons.

Liverpool have if anything overachieved with what to me is a very average squad, and Man City half the players there don't seem to be able to play the kind of football Pep wants plus the league itself is much more physical and defensive than what he is used to.

The joke is its actually possible for us to finish third let alone fourth.

In terms of Wengers contract it's arguable that the FA cup will have absolutely no impact on what happens at the end of the season, finish third or fourth and we all know that nothing will change and he will be able to write his own contract.

[Power n Glory]

Was that directed at NQ or me?

If i recall what i stated was that Gazidis was one of the founding executives behind the MLS which I then went on to say means that despite the media insisting that Wenger is the only one at the club with any footballing knowledge that Gazidis does have reasonably extensive knowledge on the game as well.

That's for you. You said something along the lines of him being the closest thing we have to salvation also. We've been down this route before.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's for you. You said something along the lines of him being the closest thing we have to salvation also. We've been down this route before.

He is, that's why I am not overly in an optimistic frame of mind

I'll be happy for him to try to prove me wrong though

[Power n Glory]

Checking Arseblog's Twitter feed and he even admits if Gazidis leaves this summer and Wenger stays, it's bad for the club.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Checking Arseblog's Twitter feed and he even admits if Gazidis leaves this summer and Wenger stays, it's bad for the club.

Again I don't think I've argued that wouldn't be the case

All I'm saying is that Gazidis gets no concessions from Wenger after setting his stall out like that, if he doesn't go he will lose a lot of credibility.

I think this one of them will go is a bit overblown, they will both be here next season. It's a case of what setup Wenger is operating under, it won't make any difference to us because it will still be the same has been manager but like I said it will determine whether Gazidis is all mouth and no trousers or he has the ability to influence things.

[Niall_Quinn]

Arsene Wenger will continue to have the final say on transfers even if Arsenal press ahead with plans to appoint a director of football.

Wenger has publicly opposed the club's proposals to recruit a European-style football figurehead in recent weeks.

As it stands, the Frenchman has control of footballing matters at the Emirates Stadium and such an appointment would see the manager's power diminish significantly.

However, Sportmail understands that the 67-year-old, in what represents a mini-triumph in his desire to stay at the club, will continue to be the ultimate decision-maker when it comes to first-team footballing issues.

The pending appointment will lead the club's football-related off-field operations; with contract negotiations for existing and new players and ensuring the academy and scouting structures are kept updated among the new man's responsibilities.

The news will be music to Wenger's ears, with the Frenchman determined to extend his current deal that expires at the end of the season.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4497656/Arsene-Wenger-given-final-say-Arsenal-transfers.html

Sly, sneaky. They are moving the discussion away from whether Wenger should stay or go, to how much power he should have.

[Gooner23]

Hopefully the fans won't be taken in by it. Wenger needs to GTFO, it's as simple as that.

[Power n Glory]

Sly, sneaky. They are moving the discussion away from whether Wenger should stay or go, to how much power he should have.

The discussion moved on before this article. Despite Sir Chips and Gazidis stating that a mutual decision will be made in the summer, a lot of people are still running under the assumption that a deal is on the table and just waiting for Wenger to sign it. Pundits and blogs have been running with that for months and it's as if most fans have just accepted that he'll be here next season and have stopped kicking up a fuss.

Doesn't matter anyway. After his press conference comments on the Director of Football, he's exposed himself and people will stop running with this bullshit about him not having control, needing help and needing more money.

[Niall_Quinn]

That's what I mean. The process is continuing and it is working. By the end of the season, instead of seeing "Wenger Out" banners we'll be seeing, "NO MEANS NO! WE WON'T BUDGE! NO - To Wenger approving image rights contracts for Under 12 loanees!"

[AFC Leveller]

If he somehow scrapes top 4 this season then we know Satan is a gooner.

[Niall_Quinn]

If he somehow scrapes top 4 this season then we know Satan is a gooner.

If he wins the cup too, it proves Jesus and Lucifer have become best mates.

[Niall_Quinn]

'Progression or regression?' said Wenger. 'Changes can go both ways. Maybe the time will come where the football manager will not a football specialist anymore.

'He will have enough computers around him to analyse the game and straight away he pushes on the button and out comes the team for the next game.

'And the supporters will have a word to say to make a change at half time on the internet.

'It might come. But I will not be there.'

'It is a question of teamwork inside the club,' said Wenger. 'Some coaches are only interested in managing the team and are happy with it.

'I am not like that and I cannot change myself now. I can change myself by trying to get better. But the personality?

'I have 40 years of experience at the top-top level and, personally, think I have a good knowledge of the game. I am who I am. That is it.'

And, this, which if taken literally is breathtaking considering we've been doing the exact opposite as a club for a long time. But if taken as self criticism, or as close to self criticism as Wenger seems capable, then about fucking time. But, in the latter case, what happened against Southampton then? When is this initiative taking going to start?


'Sport has to encourage initiative,' said Wenger. 'If it rewards too much teams who don't take initiative we have to rethink the whole process because people will not come forever to watch teams who do not want to take the initiative.'

[Marc Overmars]

You can tell how much contempt he holds over the fans.

We're not worthy, we must bow down to the almighty Arsene Wenger.

[Niall_Quinn]

I don't really think he has contempt for the fans - provided they stay in their own territory and don't stray into his. When they do, his contempt brims over. If he was up there competing and winning the big prizes his attitude would be understandable. But he feels that regardless of his own performance, his experience is sufficient to disqualify him being questioned or second guessed. I'm the Great Wenger, 40 years experience - you may turn up and cheer, but the line is drawn there. Oh, and try to be a bit more like spud fans while you are at it.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Arsene Wenger's magic! He wears a magic hat and when he saw the contract, he said, "I'm having that"!

[GP]

Wenga was on his way to the contract bank when he realised he had no bottle

[Letters]

Wenger doesn't like being questioned but, frankly, a lot of fans are bloody idiots.
Look at Ty, for example - alright, he's someone who would never question Wenger but would you trust him with important decisions about our club, or many fans?
So I understand a certain frustration in being questioned by a load of (mostly) idiots.
But he doesn't seem to get that scrabbling around trying to finish top 4 isn't quite what we signed up for when we started the Emirates project.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Wenger doesn't like being questioned but, frankly, a lot of fans are bloody idiots.
Look at Ty, for example - alright, he's someone who would never question Wenger but would you trust him with important decisions about our club, or many fans?
So I understand a certain frustration in being questioned by a load of (mostly) idiots.
But he doesn't seem to get that scrabbling around trying to finish top 4 isn't quite what we signed up for when we started the Emirates project.

in fairness i don't like being questioned

why did you beat that hooker black and blue?

You do you and let me do me....

[Globalgunner]

The most ridiculous part is that he still believes his teams are providing some extra special service to football and society at large by playing some revolutionary type of football. How special is your game when you have been tanked 15-3 in 3 consecutive games by a team you like to consider your equal?.

[Niall_Quinn]

The questions are coming thick and fast, not out of the blue, but as a result of years of watching the same shit happening and wondering why Wenger hasn't reacted or done something about it. Questions like, why don't you play players in their proper positions? Why do you keep starting that gimp when he's consistently off form? It's legitimate to question him on the back of a catalogue of failures, relative to where we should be in the stated plan and given our resources. Same goes for all of them, they should all be questioned. I mean, WTF is going on? We have money now, for a few seasons now some of our key opponents have been in disarray, yet none of these advantages have been seized and if anything we have tumbled backwards. Questions most certainly should be asked. Tougher ones than the media will stick their necks out to ask.

[Maestro]

Been catching with the debate on here and there is some great points being raised, arguments and coster-arguments. Pound for pound and all well reasoned and expressed, GW at it's finest! top stuff fellas.


PS* Unmask the seven

[Bumble]

we will finish 4th, wenger will sign a new contract and we can have this fun again next year.

although I wouldn't mind finishing 5th, think Europa league we have a chance in. And football should be about winning things more than just playing CL football each year.

[Cripps]

Leave.

[Niall_Quinn]

Saw this in a comments section.


Once more a top 5 finish. How is that a bad thing?

Classic.

[Power n Glory]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10883729/tony-adams-says-arsene-wenger-did-not-want-him-coaching-at-his-former-club-arsenal



Tony Adams says Arsene Wenger did not want him coaching at his former club Arsenal


Arsenal great Tony Adams says he does not think he will be able to return to the club in a coaching capacity while Arsene Wenger is in charge.

Adams claims Wenger is "essentially not a coach" and prefers an assistant who will not "ruffle feathers".

The 50-year-old made the comments in his autobiography Sober, which has been serialised in The Sun.

Adams is currently managing La Liga club Granada, who he has been unable to save from relegation, but is closely identified with Arsenal, where he won 10 major honours during a 19-year stay.

There is a statue of the former central defender outside Arsenal's Emirates Stadium but he has not been granted the opportunity to coach at his former club.

And he wrote: "Perhaps Arsene thought I might be too challenging for him.

"He seemed to like an assistant such as Pat Rice or Steve Bould, both great club men who were not going to ruffle feathers.

"Arsene is so dominant that he was probably not going to like it if I said, 'We're conceding bad goals, I'm going to take the back four today and organise them'.

"Because Arsene is essentially not a coach - and that is the second reason why I believe he didn't want me.

"Back in the day, I said in an interview coaching wasn't Arsene's strong point.

"Actually in the original draft, I said he couldn't coach his way out of a paper bag.

"And, though I modified that in the final article, it didn't go down well.

"It all left me feeling that I would never get a chance in any capacity while Arsene was there.

"Much as I respected him for his long and successful tenure, my occasional willingness to pass comment on him and the team probably counted against me."
Steve Bould is currently Wenger's assistant at Arsenal


Adams also claims that Manchester United tried to sign him on two occasions, initially in 1991 and then again in 1996.

"I turned them down both times because I was Arsenal through and through," he wrote.

"At the time, the wages weren't going to be much better, and I was stuck in my drinking and the London life with my mates and family around me.

"I wouldn't have had the tools to cope up in Manchester on my own.

"The second United approach came in 96, in the autumn just five weeks after I had stopped drinking, and in that period of uncertainty when Arsene Wenger was taking over from the sacked Bruce Rioch.

"I guess Sir Alex [Ferguson] might also have wanted me because, as well as feeling he might be strengthening United, he might be weakening Arsenal."

Tony is thinking along the same lines. Wenger doesn't want anyone around to challenge him.

[Globalgunner]

Pretty much what a lot of us think about Wenger. Only weak insecure people act the way he does. Confident people want to be challenged, especially if it makes them reach higher achievements. Ferguson was always changing his assistants and backroom staff. Wenger always falls on his many excuses for failure. Now he cant even secure the coveted 4th place anymore.

#End the Ineptitude

[Letters]

Tony is thinking along the same lines. Wenger doesn't want anyone around to challenge him.
I think that's probably right, but:

Adams is currently managing La Liga club Granada, who he has been unable to save from relegation
:lol:

Adams has been a hopeless manager, not sure how well he'd do as a coach.

[Penguin]

Adams hasn't really told us anything we didn't already know. Wenger has always surrounded himself with yes men. He's too stubborn to accept anyone else's opinion.

Not sure there'd be any manager who'd want Tony as his assistant though!

[selassie]

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/11670/10883729/tony-adams-says-arsene-wenger-did-not-want-him-coaching-at-his-former-club-arsenal




Tony is thinking along the same lines. Wenger doesn't want anyone around to challenge him.

Yep, Wenger is a control freak, he has total control of the Technical side at the moment and is in no rush to let go.

He doesn't want players or coaches confronting him or questioning him, those that do he moves on.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

It's bizarre it's all tied in with his refusal to get into confrontation

So it seems he wants to avoid confrontation with those who might question his methods

He asked Pat Rice and Steve Bould as a player in the past not to shout at players

Adams said he had to speak to Ian Wright about his timekeeping because Wenger wouldn't do it and instead changed the training sessions to fit around Wrights tardiness.

[Power n Glory]

I think that's probably right, but:

:lol:

Adams has been a hopeless manager, not sure how well he'd do as a coach.

Considering he spent his entire career at Arsenal and the latter years under Wenger where he should have been making the transition from player to coach, it reflects badly on us too. Maybe Tony could have learned a few things from Arsene and vice versa.

Just like the kids that have been developed badly at Arsenal, we’re looking at the other side of the spectrum in terms of former players not learning from Wenger when it comes to coaching.

[Letters]

Don't see how it's Wenger's role to develop players into future coaches or managers.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Considering he spent his entire career at Arsenal and the latter years under Wenger where he should have been making the transition from player to coach, it reflects badly on us too. Maybe Tony could have learned a few things from Arsene and vice versa.

Just like the kids that have been developed badly at Arsenal, we’re looking at the other side of the spectrum in terms of former players not learning from Wenger when it comes to coaching.


I think we know that Wenger is not a good coach. However I'm not sure id blame him for Adams lack of development as a coach. Adams may have a lot of knowledge of how to make a side well drilled through his experience as a defender and working under George Graham, but the guy is by his own admission damaged psychologically from his alcoholism and especially somewhere like Granada it's going to be very hard for someone like Adams to relay his wishes and feelings to his players.
I know people that knew Adams personally and that he was very changeable now that was partly as a result of the drink but even after getting on the wagon, he could become very withdrawn and sullen (honestly not trying to get at Adams, but even after 20 years the guy still has a lot of demons).

For what it's worth, I think Adams observations are mostly if not entirely correct and tally in with what other people have said about Wenger, but at the same time it was Wenger who stabilised Adams after he kicked the booze and was in a negative spiral and extended his career (Adams himself acknowledged this).

I don't think Tony Adams is blaming Wenger for his own shortcomings as a coach either, I think he's saying that it wouldn't work because Adams would speak his mind if he saw something wrong.

[Power n Glory]

Don't see how it's Wenger's role to develop players into future coaches or managers.

That's a shortsighted way to look it. It's why we're in the position we're in now. Knowledge should be passed on in football.

[Letters]

It's not why we're in the position we are now. We're in this position because our manager has stayed too long and has too much power at the club.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

That's a shortsighted way to look it. It's why we're in the position we're in now. Knowledge should be passed on in football.

If it's true than plenty of managers are guilty of it

Alex Ferguson especially. None of his guys Keane, Bruce, Giggs, Neville have made it that sucessfully as managers.

[Power n Glory]

It's not why we're in the position we are now. We're in this position because our manager has stayed too long and has too much power at the club.

Again, very short-sighted. The debates we’ve had here about the culture of the club, the lack of leadership we see on the pitch and around the club stems from the club being filled with non-confrontational yes man. Wenger has always been Wenger, but once the big characters left the club, he was left exposed and I believe we should have retained some of those players and not have been so quick to shove them out the door with 1 year contracts once their bodies started to slow down. They still had something to offer this club and we had plenty of former players willing to take that on.

Once Wenger goes, it looks like that footballing knowledge goes with him. Is that called a knowledge vacuum? This is why people are so uneasy with Kroenke being left in charge. The football culture has slowly been drained away from the club. If we were looking to Ajax, Bayern and Barca as model examples when starting this Emirates project, we’ve gone about it in the wrong way. Former players have a strong presence at those clubs. What will Wenger leave behind? It’s not just the lack of silverware that has people bitter about the legacy he leaves.

[Power n Glory]

If it's true than plenty of managers are guilty of it

Alex Ferguson especially. None of his guys Keane, Bruce, Giggs, Neville have made it that sucessfully as managers.

This isn’t an argument about success. It’s about passing down knowledge to your players and being a mentor. Fergie didn’t create a successor for Man Utd but passed on his knowledge. What’s disturbing to me is the way Wenger seems so resistant to embracing former players.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Adams was a great Captain. I still remember vividly Ray Parlour's otherwise excellent debut where he nearly burst into tears when giving away a penalty at Anfield. Adams was there for him, as he was there for Beckham against Argentina when the rest of the team, coaches and pretty much the entire nation turned against him.

However, his record as a coach and the general impression he gives, in no way suggests he has anything to offer in a coaching role.

Also, his first autobiography was as boring. Boring as shit. Too bad he has to pump this one up by throwing the man who guided him to unparalleled success towards the end of his career under the bus.

[Niall_Quinn]

Chesney's take on it as he contemplates the horror of soon being back under Wenger's "expert" tutelage.


The biggest thing I have taken away from these two years at Roma is the fact I grew as a goalkeeper. It’s just raising your levels, your standards. I absorbed a bigger knowledge of football, the tactical side of the game.

[Özim]

Adams was a great Captain. I still remember vividly Ray Parlour's otherwise excellent debut where he nearly burst into tears when giving away a penalty at Anfield. Adams was there for him, as he was there for Beckham against Argentina when the rest of the team, coaches and pretty much the entire nation turned against him.

However, his record as a coach and the general impression he gives, in no way suggests he has anything to offer in a coaching role.

Also, his first autobiography was as boring. Boring as shit. Too bad he has to pump this one up by throwing the man who guided him to unparalleled success towards the end of his career under the bus.

I remember that game, Parlour looked a reall energetic prospect but then gave away a penalty.

As for the other part, Adams/Bergkamp and co ensured unparalled success for Wenger, their leadership, discipline on the field was passed on from one team to another, once that was lost we've seen what happens, it wasn't a one way relationship. Adam/Bergkamp and co were successes before Wenger arrived.

At the end of the day he's entitled an opinion, lots of former players have come out and spoken about Wengers flaws, he's an incomplete manager who requires players to do important part of a managers job for him, he's more of an economist/football manager, which makes it ever stranger that he doesn't value leadership, he's a man who fails to acknowledge his limitations, arrogance of the highest order.

[Globalgunner]

I remember that game, Parlour looked a reall energetic prospect but then gave away a penalty.

As for the other part, Adams/Bergkamp and co ensured unparalled success for Wenger, their leadership, discipline on the field was passed on from one team to another, once that was lost we've seen what happens, it wasn't a one way relationship. Adam/Bergkamp and co were successes before Wenger arrived.

At the end of the day he's entitled an opinion, lots of former players have come out and spoken about Wengers flaws, he's an incomplete manager who requires players to do important part of a managers job for him, he's more of an economist/football manager, which makes it ever stranger that he doesn't value leadership, he's a man who fails to acknowledge his limitations, arrogance of the highest order.

:gp:
Totally agree. Worse still he is addicted to power. Even now at almost 70 he cant see what time it is

[selassie]

The biggest thing I have taken away from these two years at Roma is the fact I grew as a goalkeeper. It’s just raising your levels, your standards. I absorbed a bigger knowledge of football, the tactical side of the game.


Chesney's take on it as he contemplates the horror of soon being back under Wenger's "expert" tutelage.

Only just seen this post/those quotes NQ.

Sad but hardly surprising. Chesney isn't the first player to come out with statements like this, IIRC Cesc said something similar regarding his time at Barca and now Chelsea. He basically said that we don't really study or develop when it comes to the tactical side of the game at Arsenal, it's all technical work.

[Niall_Quinn]

Rumours that L'Massive Loon is going to start Ospina rather than Cech in the final. Would make perfect sense to Le Bumbling Idiot. Cech is on great form so bench him, especially as we have lost two key defenders too.

Maybe sell Bellerin before the game?

[Niall_Quinn]

Wenger's poisonous attitude summed up. We don't need the CL now because we get more money from elsewhere. Here it is, from his own trap.


'Because today the television money makes the weight of the television money much weaker but at the time it was absolutely needed so that was for me the biggest period of pressure between 2006 and 2014,'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4545484/Wenger-Emirates-difficult-period-life.html

It's all about the money with him. Has been for a long time (read that however you want to).

[Power n Glory]

Stadium payments were £15m to £20m a year according to Wenger. How much were we getting from CL money and generating from the stadium along with player sales?

http://www.arsenal.com/news/news-archive/wenger-we-are-paying-back-our-stadium-debt

[Özim]

Wenger's poisonous attitude summed up. We don't need the CL now because we get more money from elsewhere. Here it is, from his own trap.



It's all about the money with him. Has been for a long time (read that however you want to).

Yeah he also thinks the television money makes the weight of television money much weaker! :lol:

But yeah sums him up, always changes the rules to suit his agenda.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Yeah he also thinks the television money makes the weight of television money much weaker! :lol:

But yeah sums him up, always changes the rules to suit his agenda.

No he means the tv money from the sky and BT deals make not getting in the champions league less of a blow to the club financially and in that respect he's right.

Don't get me wrong I think it's deplorable that he's essentially boasting that he's under no pressure, and that the only pressure he was under for years was to get top four (although undeniably in some seasons in that time, it was a big achievement).

Let's be fair he's hardly the only manager to change the goalposts to turn underachievement into success. Certain diminutive Portugese gentleman did that this season.

But yeah the guy is essentially saying I delivered for the club for years, so they owe me.

[Letters]

But yeah sums him up, always changes the rules to suit his agenda.
FFS! Will you stop breaking my irony-meters :angry:

[selassie]

For all of Wenger's faults and he has plenty of them he absolutely delivered today. He got the tactics spot on, I felt we dominated in every area and if it wasn't for poor finishing we would have won by 2 or 3 goals.

I truly hope this is it for Wenger now and he is going out on a high, obviously I want whoever takes over from him to be top class but I feel now is definitely the time for him to say goodbye.

[Marc Overmars]

Ultimately, this is why Wenger is no longer good enough. It takes him until our season is dead in the water to make the changes required to rejuvenate the team. Happens every season when we're struggling, we can't keep being left thinking; why the hell couldn't we find that courage and fight earlier in the season?

I hope he calls it a day but I think it's obvious he's staying on.

[Niall_Quinn]

He's delivered a trophy and that's what any fan would want. Some excellence, in some respect. Facing up to a challenge and reaching the top of the pile. It's not the biggest trophy, it's the third biggest. But it's bigger than that ridiculous 4th Place Super Trophy. I've been talking to spuds today and they are trying to celebrate the 2nd Place World Cup Euro Olympic Champions Trophy. I'm not buying, because it's as pathetic as us taking selfies after coming 4th.

So Wenger has done good today and he deserves credit for that. I still want him to go and he still drives me into berserker rages when he opens his mouth and starts blaming the fans. But if he's staying, and it's 99% sure he will, then I hope he savours what it feels like to win and then ditch his fucked up penny pinching and holier than though philosophy and really engage with this league and the challenge and go all out to win it next season. Fuck it. Spend big keeping Alexis and Ozil and Ox here. And then spend big some more bringing in the extra quality we need. Just fucking do it. The fans love the trophies, they don't celebrate the balance sheet and tell tales about how we generated record returns on investments. We aren't cheering for prudence today, we're cheering because there's silver in the cabinet and we played fucking well and we beat the PL champions and we broke some records and it was fun to experience. Let's get the priorities right.

[Letters]

If he stays and, let's face it, he will, then we have to push on and have a proper title challenge next year.
He is the reason we expect to be up there challenging every year and he is the reason we've failed to.
But some credit where it's due, 3 FA Cups in 4 years is an impressive record.
Pleased for Wenger that he's now got the outright record and we do as a club, he deserves this.
It would be nice for him to go out on this high, the risk is he will stay and he'll lose any good will this win has bought him if things go wrong next season.

[Power n Glory]

http://m.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40069681

I don't know if he's staying for sure. Above interview was before the game. He said he won't forget the way he's been treated and that it's a disgrace. When questioned at the end of the game about his future he ducked the question. He didn't come out and say he wanted to stay. Maybe he wanted to avoid giving away more headlines but the past couple of interviews from Wenger has only muddied the waters.

Also, a lot of people said he lost the dressing room. What could he have said to get them back fighting?

It's not clear for me. But we'll find out next week.

[Letters]

I do think some of the treatment of him has been pretty disgraceful, the level of disrespect and abuse he gets on here is out of order IMO.
He's delivered 3 trophies in 4 seasons - and OK, the FA Cup has lost some of its lustre but can people please stop pretending they don't care about it, the reaction on here again shows they do. He's failed to challenge for the biggest trophies and that's why he should go but he's not been the catastrophic failure some people make out.

[Marc Overmars]

No he doesn't deserve the level of abuse he's got over the past year but by the same token he's come across as very arrogant. He's fallen short of his own criteria this year and deserves to be called out on that.

His record in the FA Cup is unmatched and his legacy is secure, however this is as good as it's going to get with him. It's enough for some but it's easy to see why we people think we have so much more potential that's just waiting to be tapped into by a better coach.

[Globalgunner]

I do think some of the treatment of him has been pretty disgraceful, the level of disrespect and abuse he gets on here is out of order IMO.
He's delivered 3 trophies in 4 seasons - and OK, the FA Cup has lost some of its lustre but can people please stop pretending they don't care about it, the reaction on here again shows they do. He's failed to challenge for the biggest trophies and that's why he should go but he's not been the catastrophic failure some people make out.

Complaining about not winning or even challenging the for the league is not disgraceful. Being humiliated 10-2 by Bayern or 15-3 in 3 matches . Now thats disgraceful!. The problem with Wenger is that he is too comfortable. It took all these so called insults to get him to buck up his ideas. Even his players admit that they are not properly prepared for games. Too much of that laissez-faire attitude is what perennially costs us the league. 1 stupid performance at the start of the season is ultimately what cost us his 4th place title. I knew it wouldnt take much for you to start crooning about him again.

Bottom line...and we have seen it over and over again. If he gets a new contract he will go back to his idiosyncratic ways, buying players that he likes, rather than he needs and losing quality every season because no top player wants to stay for his never ending quest for personal validation instead of trophies. We are in the Europa next season. As a shit Utd have shown, any decent team can win that. Can Wenger do it? or will it be another, "lets give him the benefit of the doubt, he will improve next season"

This game has shown that the problem with this team is not so much quality as attitude. Next season when playing the likes of Southampton or Crystal Palace, they should play like this and not stink the place out.

Everything of course depends on Sanchez. If he does not see the FA cup as a mark of progress, we will be at least 40% less a team without him.

[Marc Overmars]

Board meeting on Tuesday. At least we should know once and for all what he's doing this week.

[Cripps]

Journo's saying they think wenger is off because he never keeps his medals and he said he's keeping this one.

Think they're thinking too deeply about it tbh... he's had the more pressurised season of his life, he probably wants to keep this one as a middle finger to all the doubters.

[Cripps]

He won't leave... stan will have to ok it and he only flies over a few times a year and was there yesterday. He saw us lift a trophy, fans singing his name and the team put in an incredible performance. To him it's probably all rosy.

If that's all he sees his judgement will be skewed... so why would he ask wenger to go? Nah

[Power n Glory]

I do think some of the treatment of him has been pretty disgraceful, the level of disrespect and abuse he gets on here is out of order IMO.
He's delivered 3 trophies in 4 seasons - and OK, the FA Cup has lost some of its lustre but can people please stop pretending they don't care about it, the reaction on here again shows they do. He's failed to challenge for the biggest trophies and that's why he should go but he's not been the catastrophic failure some people make out.

Disgraceful? If he decides to leave Arsenal and move on to a bigger club, I can't imagine another set of fans being this patient or restrained.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I do think some of the treatment of him has been pretty disgraceful, the level of disrespect and abuse he gets on here is out of order IMO.
He's delivered 3 trophies in 4 seasons - and OK, the FA Cup has lost some of its lustre but can people please stop pretending they don't care about it, the reaction on here again shows they do. He's failed to challenge for the biggest trophies and that's why he should go but he's not been the catastrophic failure some people make out.

It's a football forum, I think some of the criticism of Wenger is indicative of emotional reactions

But disgraceful?. It's like on Twitter when I ask people what's disgraceful about the people who Want Wenger out and all they can point to is an example of someone who might have said I hope Wenger dies, now that is disgraceful but you don't get anyone saying it on here.
I think a lot of what Zim says borders on the absurd, but nothing he says is disgraceful because Wenger isn't some God like figure and questioning his competence isn't akin to blasphemy.

I don't personally want him hounded out because I think that would be an awful way for his time at Arsenal to end, but he's been given a perfect oportunity to leave on a high now but he won't take it simply because he's scared of not being in management.

I think this overly sensitive and overwrought response to, how dare people treat this man so disrespectfully. It's the culture of the club that has made him and certain fans think he deserves this degree of reverence, a reverence which would not be afforded any other manager in the game with the possible exception of Alex Ferguson.

If he was so wounded by what was being said he wouldn't even think about staying.

[Marc Overmars]

You'll always find idiots at either end of the spectrum. It's best to just ignore them and actually converse with people who have something legitimate to say for themselves and to not let the morons muddy the waters with "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense.

Sometimes I think without the platform of the internet football would have a much more rational and sane following.

[Niall_Quinn]

When Wenger blames the fans for his own fuck-ups, which he does regularly, then he's going to get a bucket of shit thrown back at him. That's natural and totally acceptable. If he doesn't like it, then don't start it by talking shit about the fans.

[Niall_Quinn]

You'll always find idiots at either end of the spectrum. It's best to just ignore them and actually converse with people who have something legitimate to say for themselves and to not let the morons muddy the waters with "WOB" and "AKB" nonsense.

Sometimes I think without the platform of the internet football would have a much more rational and sane following.

No, if anything the Internet has toned it all down by allowing social martyrs to congregate around anything that isn't politically correct. Football today is a dinner party compared to the howling, screaming, fist throwing atmosphere of the past.

[Letters]

Disgraceful? If he decides to leave Arsenal and move on to a bigger club, I can't imagine another set of fans being this patient or restrained.

Patient? Restrained? Do you read the posts on here?! It's that sort of thing I'm talking about.

[Letters]

Complaining about not winning or even challenging the for the league is not disgraceful.
No, it isn't. I didn't say it was, it's the level of abuse he's got on places like this that I've always found distasteful.


I knew it wouldnt take much for you to start crooning about him again.
And where have I done that? I don't know how to talk to someone who thinks that me thinking that the abuse on here has been OTT is me "crooning" about him
I've said consistently that I hope he leaves with one final FA Cup. I am still of that opinion. I repeated it above. He HAS failed to challenge for the biggest trophies and with our squad and resources that isn't good enough, but I don't think people should be calling him a **** every 5 minutes.

[Niall_Quinn]

Patient? Restrained? Do you read the posts on here?! It's that sort of thing I'm talking about.

Have you been reading what Wenger has been saying about the fans? What does he expect? He needs to take some responsibility. He's been given fair credit for the win yesterday and the new records he's set, but he also needs to own the other stuff too and not be looking to palm that off.

[Letters]

Well, he's said that it's been hard at times playing in a hostile atmosphere - obviously true, but it has to be acknowledged that our and his ineptitude at time caused that atmosphere.
And he's saying now he thinks the level of disrespect has been disgraceful - I agree with that.
We've failed to challenge for the biggest prizes but he's won 3 FA Cups in 4 seasons, it's not been all bad and I think the level of criticism has been OTT at times.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again the term OTT is your opinion and I don't agree but your entitled to it

Disgraceful? Please evidence what you find disgraceful. Whether I agree with everything that is said is one thing but there aren't any heavily personal comments about the guy, it's all directed at how he does his job.

What I find disgraceful is eight defeats in eighteen league games and four defeats in a row away from home, with two 5-1 drubbings to Bayern Munich to boot.

The FA cup is without doubt a nice trophy to win, and I haven't seen any Chelsea fan even pretend not to care that they lost yesterday. But there is something fundamentally very wrong with the way Wenger is managing the club. And what's abundantly clear is that he has far too much power for one man, and seems to resent the club trying to check his power.....that can't end well.

The run from late January to April really made you wonder if he'd lost the dressing room and whether wholesale changes were needed to playing personnel

Whatever happens on Tuesday there needs to be an inquest about what happened for about three months, and Wenger blaming other people for uncertainty over his future as well as the fans is simply not acceptable.

[Letters]

Disgraceful? Please evidence what you find disgraceful. Whether I agree with everything that is said is one thing but there aren't any heavily personal comments about the guy, it's all directed at how he does his job.

Come on. There has been loads of stuff like this:


No leaders, because they are a threat to the Mighty CUNT Wenger, no hope, because the inspirational CUNT Wenger smashed that years ago. We all know what happens when a Wenger inspired team with Wenger spirit comes up against a half decent opponent, or even a well organised pub outfit. Wenger has not only destroyed this club, he's destroyed each individual in it. He's a fucking cancer. Virulent. Remorseless. Everything he toucthes turns to shit.

You're saying that isn't personal? There's been talk about how he doesn't love the club, is only in it for the money or to protect the board. Some of it has been pretty personal about his character.
And I agree, our results at times have been pretty disgraceful given our squad and resources. It seems something has gone on in the club this year, one day I'm sure we'll read his autobiography and maybe that will reveal more.
I have consistently said I still think Wenger should go. He has failed to challenge for the biggest prizes - I could forgive that when the stadium repayments were hampering us but we're past that now and while the FA Cups have been nice we have repeatedly failed in the PL and CL. I hope he goes now on his own terms with 3 FA Cups in 4 years which surely seal his legacy as our best ever manager. If he doesn't and we fail AGAIN to challenge in the PL then on his own head be it.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Again over the top but not disgraceful

I don't think he's motivated by money either but to question whether that is a motivation when it appears at time he's not doing everything in his power to push the club on is not an unfair statement.

Plus like I say this is a message board, I don't think you can expect the kind of high brow discourse all the time sometimes it's a good vent for frustration...and there is no one more frustrating than Arsene Wenger. The FA cup yesterday was frustrating, because it's like if you are capable of playing like that, what the fuck has been wrong with you the rest of the season?

[Niall_Quinn]

Are you saying Wenger has been scanning forums and Twitter? Don't talk shit.

What he means by "disgraceful" is fans holding up banners and directing lasers onto building, or flying planes above the stadium. Wenger is 100% detached from the fans, you can easily tell that from the shit he talks about them. And it's THAT shit which he is shovelling that has caused people to lose all respect for him. Wenger started this, not the fans. The real issue here is his total refusal to take responsibility for his ongoing fuck-ups and his disgusting tendency to blame the fans for his own failings.

It's beyond belief you (or anyone) would fall into his little sob story after another season where his team got annihilated in both major competitions. Not just beaten, but annihilated. Total, utter failure. And what has he said? The fans are to blame and it's disgraceful that people are pissed at him after all these seasons of him fucking up.

Give me a break.

This guy needs to go right now, while he has somehow managed to salvage an ounce of credibility. But he won't go. So this is all going to get a whole lot worse and it is 100% his fault.

[Niall_Quinn]

No leaders, because they are a threat to the Mighty CUNT Wenger, no hope, because the inspirational CUNT Wenger smashed that years ago. We all know what happens when a Wenger inspired team with Wenger spirit comes up against a half decent opponent, or even a well organised pub outfit. Wenger has not only destroyed this club, he's destroyed each individual in it. He's a fucking cancer. Virulent. Remorseless. Everything he toucthes turns to shit.

That sounds like me, but just in case it isn't, I agree with it 100%

[Niall_Quinn]

I spent maybe 5 years avoiding calling him a cunt. But as soon as he started with his fan shite, he became a cunt. And so I now address him by his proper title.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Some people take the last 7-10 years of continuous disappointment and failures far more personally than maybe, they should.

Maybe you should take it with more of a pinch of salt though letters? People are entitled to have their say, and say what they like.

Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally yourself.

[Niall_Quinn]

Some people take the last 7-10 years of continuous disappointment and failures far more personally than maybe, they should.

Maybe you should take it with more of a pinch of salt though letters? People are entitled to have their say, and say what they like.

Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally yourself.

He's been defending Wenger all along. His tactic is to say, I agree he should go, and then he dives in and starts on anyone who says he should go. Covers his arse and then sticks his tongue right up Wenger's hole.

[GP]

For what it's worth, I think you're all cunts.

[KSE Comedy Club]

He's been defending Wenger all along. His tactic is to say, I agree he should go, and then he dives in and starts on anyone who says he should go. Covers his arse and then sticks his tongue right up Wenger's hole.

I must admit, when I read his post I though I'd accidentally stumbled into a thread from a couple of years ago, lol.

Letters can't help himself, just when we thought he was with us, he reverts to type.

Typical wengerite tbh

[Niall_Quinn]

For what it's worth, I think you're all cunts.

Perfectly fair comment which I have no problem with. It's only if you said, you're a cunt and then sent me a PM saying fancy a dinner and a fuck? Then I'd think you were two faced.

I'd probably still fuck you for a decent dinner, of course, but that's besides the main point.

[Niall_Quinn]

I must admit, when I read his post I though I'd accidentally stumbled into a thread from a couple of years ago, lol.

Letters can't help himself, just when we thought he was with us, he reverts to type.

Typical wengerite tbh

The things is, just about EVERYONE is on here saying well done Wenger, good win, we're buzzing. It can be left at that for a few days. Instead, it's not the Wenger out "moaners" who cause the conflict, but the Wenger worshipping twats who want to open up temporarily closed wounds and start applying salt. Not even the weekend could go by without having to put up with their bullshit. And that applies to Wenger himself. Yes I know he's being questioned (finally) by the media, but why not shut the fuck up about the whole thing for a few days and let the fans enjoy their crumb of consolation? Why doesn't Wenger and his disciples just shut the fuck up for a few minutes?

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

Perfectly fair comment which I have no problem with. It's only if you said, you're a cunt and then sent me a PM saying fancy a dinner and a fuck? Then I'd think you were two faced.

I'd probably still fuck you for a decent dinner, of course, but that's besides the main point.

Define decent dinner

I hope you set your self worth higher than a KFC mega bucket

[Letters]

Some people take the last 7-10 years of continuous disappointment and failures far more personally than maybe, they should.

Maybe you should take it with more of a pinch of salt though letters? People are entitled to have their say, and say what they like.

Maybe you shouldn't take it so personally yourself.
Sure. As am I. And I think the level of abuse he's got on here is over the top.

[Power n Glory]

Sure. As am I. And I think the level of abuse he's got on here is over the top.

He does not read GW. He's talking about what he's seen at the stadium and maybe what he's heard papers report from AFTV.

[Letters]

He does not read GW. He's talking about what he's seen at the stadium and maybe what he's heard papers report from AFTV.
OK. And I'm talking about what I see on here.

The last page of posts is why this place is so rubbish and decent debate is next to impossible. I have consistently said Wenger needs to go regardless of the Cup Final result. Said it before the game, said it since. He has failed to challenge for the biggest prizes and with our resources that isn't good enough. But wanting him out isn't enough now. because I think posts like this:


No leaders, because they are a threat to the Mighty CUNT Wenger, no hope, because the inspirational CUNT Wenger smashed that years ago. We all know what happens when a Wenger inspired team with Wenger spirit comes up against a half decent opponent, or even a well organised pub outfit. Wenger has not only destroyed this club, he's destroyed each individual in it. He's a fucking cancer. Virulent. Remorseless. Everything he toucthes turns to shit.

Are over the top, I now apparently think "Wenger has been scanning forums and Twitter". (Didn't say or imply that).
I "dive in and starts on anyone who says he should go." (No, all I said is things like the above are OTT which it clearly is)
I "stick [my] tongue right up Wenger's hole". (Not quite sure how saying posts like the above are OTT is doing that, but OK)
I'm "reverting to type" and am a "Wengerite". (I don't even know what that means).
And I'm a "Wenger worshipping twat". Again, I just said I think posts like the above are OTT.

I agree with HCZ that you're not going to get much high brow discourse on here but people surely have the ability to have more nuanced views than the only two possible opinions are either that Wenger is a...all the things mentioned in the post I've quoted above or he's the best manager ever, a brilliant human being and I'd have children with him if I could. Do people really think those are the only two possible positions and if I don't think the former then I must think the latter?

It's pretty pathetic tbh.

[Power n Glory]

Letters - if Wenger leaves, will he be treated better by other fans when he's on a losing streak? Are we the exception? If he thinks we've been disgraceful and you agree, is there anywhere else he can go where the grass is greener?

[Letters]

Letters - if Wenger leaves, will he be treated better by other fans when he's on a losing streak? Are we the exception? If he thinks we've been disgraceful and you agree, is there anywhere else he can go where the grass is greener?

Well, I think the level of abuse has been because of repeated failings - it has built up over time - and frustrations from the fans about their inability to do anything about the situation. So the grass would be greener at a lot of clubs at least initially because new managers always get a certain grace period.
But I still think the level of abuse on here has been OTT. Amazingly it is possible to simultaneously think that and also think Wenger should leave.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Sure. As am I. And I think the level of abuse he's got on here is over the top.

Its football though, it comes with the territory and as I have said on here before, there are a huge hunk of people that are a bit more blasé with how they throw about some words and don't actually mean them with as much vitriol as they are intended. Its just sounding off after being wound up for so long.

Also, he really hasn't had anywhere near the level of abuse that some managers get but he has brought all of it on himself through his own blind arrogance.

[KSE Comedy Club]

OK. And I'm talking about what I see on here.

The last page of posts is why this place is so rubbish and decent debate is next to impossible. I have consistently said Wenger needs to go regardless of the Cup Final result. Said it before the game, said it since. He has failed to challenge for the biggest prizes and with our resources that isn't good enough. But wanting him out isn't enough now. because I think posts like this:



Are over the top, I now apparently think "Wenger has been scanning forums and Twitter". (Didn't say or imply that).
I "dive in and starts on anyone who says he should go." (No, all I said is things like the above are OTT which it clearly is)
I "stick [my] tongue right up Wenger's hole". (Not quite sure how saying posts like the above are OTT is doing that, but OK)
I'm "reverting to type" and am a "Wengerite". (I don't even know what that means).
And I'm a "Wenger worshipping twat". Again, I just said I think posts like the above are OTT.

I agree with HCZ that you're not going to get much high brow discourse on here but people surely have the ability to have more nuanced views than the only two possible opinions are either that Wenger is a...all the things mentioned in the post I've quoted above or he's the best manager ever, a brilliant human being and I'd have children with him if I could. Do people really think those are the only two possible positions and if I don't think the former then I must think the latter?

It's pretty pathetic tbh.
FFS mate!

Its a bloody football forum!

I think we have all had some brilliantly fascinating and interesting debates on here over the years - but there is really nothing left to debate to a high level as we have spent the last 5 years going round in circles and discussing the same things.
Until we see major changes at the club we are all resided to the fact that we will see the same results.

People digging you out (whilst probably justified ;)) is just for a laugh and a bit of fun to alleviate the immense sense of dissatisfaction, anger, disappointment & inevitability that we are all feeling under the latter part of the Wenger era.
We have been there, done that and worn the T shirt.

Up until recently, Wenger has had it pretty easy from us fans tbh. Other fans rip their failing managers to shreds to the point that they actually get sent death threats to force them out. A bit of nasty vitriol on a forum is hardly the same thing. What has made it worse now, is that even in the face of defeat & at the point where he should do the right thing and walk away - he is commenting on & trying to blame us fans for his failure.

IMO most of the comments on here is more banter and 'tongue in cheek' despite what we all want, & sometimes I think you are being a bit too precious
- but I'm sorry to say that for Wenger now (and going forward if he stays).... the gloves are off, anything goes.

[Letters]

A lot of it has been brought on by himself and actually I don't think protests in the ground have been over the top or disrespectful. Hiring planes with banners is a bit much!
It's just on here it's got more and more extreme. Yes, football is an emotional business so I understand the frustration but it has got OTT. It's pretty tiresome that I can't say so without then being called a Wengerite (whatever that means) and all the other nonsense in the last page or so of posts.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Why not try and give yourself some comfort that at least it is being spouted on here and not at the emirates & in the stands.
We are all pissed off but at least we have done it in a respectable way, when & where it matters :good:

Don't take it to heart so much Letters, there's a fairly broad scope of fans on GW and everyone has there own ideas of what is acceptable to be said about Wenger - it's not about you :hug:

(Wengerite = someone who follows wenger no matter what. other synonyms: AKB's, Ty) see, its just for laugh :)

[Letters]

Hmm. But Ty is a moran. He really IS a Wengerite. And I think you'll find a WOB is the opposite of a Wengerite - isn't it the Wenger Out Brigade which I guess I am now a member of.
NQ implied above that I'm lying about that. I really don't know why I would bother do so. Does he think I'm trying to infiltrate the WOBs to take them down from the inside? :lol:

[GP]

Sign da Ting

[Letters]

Sign da Ting

Wengerite! Stone him! He's licking Wenger's (admittedly tasty) hole. Booooo!



Am I doing this right?

[Niall_Quinn]

A lot of it has been brought on by himself and actually I don't think protests in the ground have been over the top or disrespectful. Hiring planes with banners is a bit much!
It's just on here it's got more and more extreme. Yes, football is an emotional business so I understand the frustration but it has got OTT. It's pretty tiresome that I can't say so without then being called a Wengerite (whatever that means) and all the other nonsense in the last page or so of posts.

Why did you even bring it up at all? We were all here celebrating the win. I put up a post about this when one of those media twats tried to spoil the day by going on about the negatives. "I agree with Wenger", I said - that media twat should fuck off, leave it alone for a day. You agreed. So what changed?

Wenger himself decided he'd open up the whole issue with his "poor me" ramblings and you jumped on that and said you agreed with him. That's after you agreed with the whole fucking thing being dropped so we could celebrate a cup win.

Then you changed your story again when people reminded you how little disrespect, relatively speaking, Wenger has actually suffered. It went from what Wenger perceives as disrespect, which certainly would not involve reading GW and backwater Twitter feeds, to you highlighting the disrespect being shown on this particular forum. What does that have to do with what Wenger was moaning about? Nothing. It's just you shifting the goalposts.

You always seem to want to be the reasonable, rational, moderate guy who agrees with both sides of every debate. Fine, there's nothing wrong with reasonable and rational, but only when there's some sort of context. Rationality is irrelevant when it is not applied in context. It can't exist in a vacuum, like some social prize that is tangible in its own right. In truth, Wenger moaning about the fans is neither reasonable nor rational. What it is is totally unreasonable and entirely irrational when taken in the context of the season we have just witnessed, let alone all the other seasons that have gone before. He's talking shit. And even with him talking shit, it was left. So we could celebrate a cup win. Left until you dived in and dug it all up. When you got slapped back for shitting in the middle of the celebrations you then threw up your hands in exasperation and said, look at these people - so unreasonable, so irrational.

[Niall_Quinn]

Wengerite! Stone him! He's licking Wenger's (admittedly tasty) hole. Booooo!



Am I doing this right?

No, the general consensus appears to suggest you're being a complete arse.

[Letters]

Why did you even bring it up at all?
I didn't. PnG posted a BBC link about Wenger's views on his treatment from the fans. I simply replied to that.

[Niall_Quinn]

I didn't. PnG posted a BBC link about Wenger's views on his treatment from the fans. I simply replied to that.

All change again. Why did you dive in and support Wenger's bizarre complaints?

[Letters]

:lol: I just replied to a post. It's a forum, that's what you supposed to do. I don't need to justify that.

[Niall_Quinn]

Slippery as an eel.

The lack of respect for Wenger is disgraceful on here - boo hoo!

I was just expressing my opinion, that's what a forum is for!

(And before the game) Good posting! Good posting! (As somebody else expressing their opinion was told to fuck off)

Why not have two cakes and eat them both Letters?

[Globalgunner]

Leave Letters he cant help himself. People have posted worse things about Letters himself, mostly tongue in cheek but whatever....and he has taken it like a champ. But any abuse of Wenger and he gets all precious. Years past he would get all hysterical if anyone called Wenger a cunt. Now it is an established fact that he is indeed a cunt. His outrage has turned to haughty dissapointment in said ingrates.

You have a problem mate...shades of Scientology brainwashing.....Get help fast.


On second thoughts. this could all be a Machiavellian strategy by Letters to keep traffic to this forum. Since we all agree that Wenger should go. What else is there to discuss. Cunt or not a cunt...that is the question. In which case ..Well done Letters,

[Letters]

Precious?! :lol:
I've just said it's been OTT on here. It has. :shrug:

[Letters]

On second thoughts. this could all be a Machiavellian strategy by Letters to keep traffic to this forum. Since we all agree that Wenger should go. What else is there to discuss. Cunt or not a cunt...that is the question. In which case ..Well done Letters,
:lol: Thanks.

Sometimes when I'm talking to NQ I can't tell if he is replying to what I'm actual saying or the things the voices in his head are telling him I am.

[Niall_Quinn]

:lol: Thanks.

Sometimes when I'm talking to NQ I can't tell if he is replying to what I'm actual saying or the things the voices in his head are telling him I am.

Cute response and all, and it might just work if people jump here rather than reading through the thread.

[Power n Glory]

Well, I think the level of abuse has been because of repeated failings - it has built up over time - and frustrations from the fans about their inability to do anything about the situation. So the grass would be greener at a lot of clubs at least initially because new managers always get a certain grace period.
But I still think the level of abuse on here has been OTT. Amazingly it is possible to simultaneously think that and also think Wenger should leave.

Frustration has built over a very long period. When Wenger speaks of the club's he has turned down, he won't have a long grace period if he's knocked out of the last 16 of the CL and out of a title race by Christmas.

[Power n Glory]

I didn't. PnG posted a BBC link about Wenger's views on his treatment from the fans. I simply replied to that.

You did. I was making a point about the possibility of Wenger leaving. You guys were saying he's sure to stay but from his recent interactions with the press, he sounds like he's really pissed off and may decide to walk. I didn't post the BBC interview to dicuss whether or not he's been treated fairly. You saw the comments and took it upon yourself to make a point about it whilst missing the overall point of whether he sounds like he's moving on.

[Xhaka Can’t]

OK. And I'm talking about what I see on here.

The last page of posts is why this place is so rubbish and decent debate is next to impossible. I have consistently said Wenger needs to go regardless of the Cup Final result. Said it before the game, said it since. He has failed to challenge for the biggest prizes and with our resources that isn't good enough. But wanting him out isn't enough now. because I think posts like this:



Are over the top, I now apparently think "Wenger has been scanning forums and Twitter". (Didn't say or imply that).
I "dive in and starts on anyone who says he should go." (No, all I said is things like the above are OTT which it clearly is)
I "stick [my] tongue right up Wenger's hole". (Not quite sure how saying posts like the above are OTT is doing that, but OK)
I'm "reverting to type" and am a "Wengerite". (I don't even know what that means).
And I'm a "Wenger worshipping twat". Again, I just said I think posts like the above are OTT.

I agree with HCZ that you're not going to get much high brow discourse on here...

When there is something approaching good discourse on here, you can be relied upon to come in and fuck it up.

[Letters]

When there is something approaching good discourse on here, you can be relied upon to come in and fuck it up.

Explain how. You think the things I've quoted above from other people are "good discourse"? :lol:

This discussion started when I was replying to a link PnG posted about which PnG said, in part. "He said he won't forget the way he's been treated and that it's a disgrace."
Maybe that wasn't the main point of PnG's post but the headline of the article was "Arsene Wenger: Arsenal manager describes criticism as 'a disgrace'" so I responded to that with my thoughts. Is that not legitimate? Why not? And then the responses were all the nonsense I quoted above. And I'm the one messing up "good discourse"?
Jog on, fella :good:

[Niall_Quinn]

Explain how. You think the things I've quoted above from other people are "good discourse"? :lol:

This discussion started when I was replying to a link PnG posted about which PnG said, in part. "He said he won't forget the way he's been treated and that it's a disgrace."
Maybe that wasn't the main point of PnG's post but the headline of the article was "Arsene Wenger: Arsenal manager describes criticism as 'a disgrace'" so I responded to that with my thoughts. Is that not legitimate? Why not? And then the responses were all the nonsense I quoted above. And I'm the one messing up "good discourse"?
Jog on, fella :good:

And then you quoted one of my GW posts as an example :haha:

[Letters]

Yes, because it's that sort of thing I was talking about. I seriously doubt he reads this place but equally I doubt he is oblivious to the howling derision on Social media.
I also said that if he's talking about the stuff in the ground then I don't think that is out of line.

[Niall_Quinn]

Yes, because it's that sort of thing I was talking about. I seriously doubt he reads this place but equally I doubt he is oblivious to the howling derision on Social media.
I also said that if he's talking about the stuff in the ground then I don't think that is out of line.

I don't think you know what the hell you are talking about.

But it doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things. I made a pratt of myself for laying into Bif just as he was assisting the winner in the FA Cup Final. You made a pratt of yourself with all this shit. Internet forum. Fan banter. That's how it goes.

You can be sure of one thing though. Wenger doesn't come within a million miles of the fans. He won't have a clue what the real sentiment is. He's seriously out there thinking we're ungrateful bastards and that we owe HIM. He really does. Just listen to him. Which is why I have no time at all for anyone who jumps on his pity train. He's lucky this is Arsenal. No other fanbase on the planet would put up with this shit, that's for sure.

[Niall_Quinn]

Adams throwing big punches.


Wenger has faced the hardest campaign of his 21 years at Arsenal with a growing number of fans calling for him to be released at the end of his current contract. After winning the FA Cup, however, he is set to sign a two-year extension.

Adams isn't surprised because he believes the 67-year-old retains full control over all matters at the club, accusing the board of taking the money Wenger earns them and doing 'nothing' else.

He also doesn't buy into Wenger's claim of loyalty. He has regularly cited the fact that he has stayed with Arsenal despite a host of other offers but Adams says he would not have lasted more than a year at Real Madrid and, instead, he has 'free rein' at the Emirates.

Adams continued: 'That’s why I think he’ll hold on to Arsenal. He said "I’ve turned down every club in the world." But he would’ve been sacked after a year at Madrid. He would’ve had to go to from club to club.

'But, at Arsenal, he’s got total dominance. The board do nothing. Arsene has a free rein. He’s earning them so much money he can do what he wants. And I don’t think Arsene can let go. It’s an addiction.'

[Xhaka Can’t]

I've just noticed a few occasions where you have disrupted a really good flowing discussion pointing out the least relevant part of people's posting and either completely taking it out of context or posting some dumbass smiley. We all do that sometimes but I've just noticed it more from you.

[Xhaka Can’t]

Adams throwing big punches.

Every time he's thrown a punch as a manager, it has been a swing and a miss.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Adams throwing big punches.

I know nobody (the football world at least) seems to rate a word adams says but he is spot on with it here.

He may not be the 'right man' to say it, but what he says is right.

[GP]

Adams is a bitter old drunk.

[Niall_Quinn]

Every time he's thrown a punch as a manager, it has been a swing and a miss.

We can't forget that there was an Arsenal before Wenger and Adams was part of that. A shit manager himself, maybe. But perhaps it takes one to know one? The complaint with Wenger is not that he can't put together a team to challenge for the top 4. Until very recently at least, we know he can do that. So he's well ahead of Adams in that respect. But when we talk about what it takes to step up to the next level and challenge for that top spot, it seems Wenger has forgotten more that Adams has ever learned. Which means we're fucked. Nobody is saying Wenger out, Adams in. They are just saying Wenger out.

[Niall_Quinn]

Adams is a bitter old drunk.

He's one of our legends that, so far, hasn't traded his legacy for cash. You could say maybe he has with this book. Except he's telling the truth. As far as I can tell, judging from the outside so that caveat of course applies, Wenger has made that trade. Put his own personal interests above that of the club. He's not the only one to do it, but he's done it nonetheless. Adams may be a bitter old drunk, but he's shown no sign so far of being as corrupt as Wenger.

[KSE Comedy Club]

Adams is a bitter old drunk.Indeed he may be.

But he's saying what most fans are thinking

[Power n Glory]

He's one of our legends that, so far, hasn't traded his legacy for cash. You could say maybe he has with this book. Except he's telling the truth. As far as I can tell, judging from the outside so that caveat of course applies, Wenger has made that trade. Put his own personal interests above that of the club. He's not the only one to do it, but he's done it nonetheless. Adams may be a bitter old drunk, but he's shown no sign so far of being as corrupt as Wenger.

A case of people shooting the messenger and ignoring the message. He's entitled to his opinion and an Arsenal legend.

[Marc Overmars]

So we're likely to get the outcome of this sorry mess this week.

What's everyone thinking then, will he stay or go?

I think he will probably stay but then again, I also feel there may be some on the board who are open to change. Also it was interesting to hear Wenger voice his disgust at the level of disrespect he's received this year, maybe even he's thinking is all this shit worth it at this stage of his life? No doubt if he stays on for another 2-3 years and doesn't deliver a league title and chokes in Europe it's going to be a lot worse.

[Letters]

Think he'll stay but I hope he goes.
I think in his mind he thinks we're a load of ungrateful twats who don't deserve him. If so then he'll be going for the wrong reasons but at least it would be on a relative high and he'd leave with a bit of good will.
If he stays and next season is as big a car crash as this one then it will all get quite nasty again.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

My concern is that this won't even get discussed at board level

BBC sports saying he's meeting Kroenke, so that he may bypass the board directly.

[GP]

Wrighty thinks he's off.

I think he'll stay.

[Xhaka Can’t]

I'm certain he is staying but I really wish he would leave.

I also hope no one buys Adams book. His last one was as boring as shit and he has nothing to say that people are remotely interested so he decided to cash in by throwing the man who brought him more glory than he could ever hope for under the bus.

He may be an Arsenal legend, but he is also a cunt.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I'm certain he is staying but I really wish he would leave.

I also hope no one buys Adams book. His last one was as boring as shit and he has nothing to say that people are remotely interested so he decided to cash in by throwing the man who brought him more glory than he could ever hope for under the bus.

He may be an Arsenal legend, but he is also a cunt.

I don't think he is at all, because it's being serialised it's clearly showing the most critical aspects

[Niall_Quinn]

Journos are all going mad speculating. Apparently they know what is going to happen. Either they are taking a punt, egg never seems to stick to their two faces anyway, or there's behind the scenes briefing going on. General consensus seems to be Wenger will stay provided he gets his way over everything and his control is not diminished in any way. Sounds like the board is going to cave and try to save some face by "demanding" Wenger spends some money in the window. Only at Arsenal, the owners demanding the manager spends money. Apparently, according to the either made up or leaked press stories, Wenger will be "instructed" to get the transfer deals done quickly and efficiently so we aren't scrambling at the tail end of the window. Not exactly a smack down.

Big shame that Wenger didn't announce he was off in advance of the cup final. He would have got a memorable send off from 99% of the fans. Instead we remain in the dark. Not just about Wenger's position but also Alexis, Ozil, Ox and the increasing talk of Monreal heading out the door, which would be a shame considering he's one of our most reliable players.