What was the straw that broke the camels back for you?

Which game or season or a time of you following Arsenal in the last decade did you give up on Wenger?

To me, it was a game against Stoke away in the 08/09 season (Yes, I have wanted him gone for 8 years now!). This was our line-up from that game:

Almunia, Sagna (Walcott 57), Toure, Silvestre, Clichy, Denilson (Van Persie 65), Fabregas, Song Billong, Diaby, Adebayor (Vela 72), Bendtner.
Subs Not Used: Fabianski, Nasri, Ramsey, Djourou.

We played a 4-4-2 with our midfield 4 being Song, Denilson, Diaby and Cesc. You dont need to be a genius or need billion dollars to look at that and think "Where the fuck am I going to add width or pace to the play from?!"
Mind you, we had Nasri, Ramsey, Vela, Walcott and RVP on the bench. This to me was and is AW in a nutshell since our move to the Emirates.. What man in their right mind would select a team like that?! There is no balance or creativity in that starting XI. Like I said before and what is being currently shown by Leicester and Spurs is that you dont need billions of dollars to have basic common sense and brain cells. You can cry 'billionaire foul' every single time but you cannot defend brain farts like this on a regular basis.

This was just the beginning of the piss take this season. This season was also possibly the worst football I can remember Arsenal playing since probably the PL era. We did not lose in the PL from the end of November till the 2nd week of May in this season but we drew 12 games that season- five of which came in a row:

23	Everton	1 – 1	Arsenal	[show] Liverpool

31 January 200924	Arsenal	0 – 0	West Ham United	[show] London

8 February 200925	Tottenham Hotspur	0 – 0	Arsenal	[show] London

21 February 200926	Arsenal	0 – 0	Sunderland	[show] London

28 February 200927	Arsenal	0 – 0	Fulham	[show] London

Here is a link to the match report from that game: http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/foot...em/7684755.stm

If you scroll down, you will see a comment on 606: "Until we acquire a world-class goalkeeper, two world-class defenders and a world-class midfielder, we're not going anywhere "

What has changed from then? We still need most of those players, but what we need more is a world-class manager, not a clueless old dinosaur.

I can't say I have always consistently wanted Wenger to go

But as far as I remember the first time I had intimated Wenger should leave was the 28th August 2011

The 8-2 game against United.

Before that time even though I knew Wenger was tactically limited (let's be fair even in his greatest triumph of the unbeaten season we knew there were better managers Tactically than him). I recognised that even though finances were never as tight as Wengers frugality in the transfer market implied that we were limited in what we could spend and I was prepared to be patient.

But the 8-2 defeat was the culmination of all his bungling in the transfer market, and his tactical paucity. It was likely whatever we did we would have lost that game but in the manner we did suggested no kind of pre match preparation to play deep and do damage limitation but just sent them out there like he always did.

I wrote a scathing blog about him where I questioned exactly what he was getting out of still being here.

Ironically at the time I thought Louis Van Gaal was the ideal replacement.....oh dear.

Blog I wrote the first time I felt Wenger should go


Arsene Wenger is arguably one of the best managers to have entered the English game, in his first full season in charge he galvanised a club with a heavy reputation for having a drinking culture and for whom many of it's best players had seen their best days come and go, into a title winning side, he took the legendary back four and introduced a new dieting and training regime to rejuvenate tired bodies and allow players like Tony Adams to extend their careers at the top level of football longer than they might otherwise have done, with that experience he fused gallic steel and strength with the recruitment of players like Patrick Vieira, Manu Petit and Nicolas Anelka and made Arsenal the only team realistically able to challenge the footballing dynasty being presided over by Alex Ferguson at Manchester United.
He took Thierry Henry a winger who had failed to make it at the top level with Juventus and turned him into one of the most lethal strikers ever seen in English and European football, he took Sol Campbell from our rivals in North London and used him as the bedrock of our defence where with us he won two league titles, three fa cups and was a champions league finalist.
He transformed the image of the club from Boring,Boring Arsenal.... an obdurate and turgid team who would strangle the life out of games (best seen in the 1-0 cup winners cup victory over Parma under George Graham's stewardship) into a team that would mesmorise it's oponents with pace, passing and precision and a deadly lightning counter-attack thrust that would leave other teams picking the ball out of the net ten seconds after they had forced a corner.
In 2004 he acheived a feat which only Preston North End had previously accomplished in 1889 when League football was still in it's infancy and that was to traverse an entire League season without defeat, despite being in a losing position at some point during 9 of those 38 games, we also overturned the record set by Nottingham Forest in 1978 by incorportating unbeaten games from the season previous and the subsequent season recorded a 49 game unbeaten streak.
In 2005-2006 in a season that otherwise brought disappointment in the league, Arsenal made it to the first ever European cup final along the way becoming the first English side to win at the Santiago Bernebau stadium triumphing 1-0 over Real Madrid, two years later we became the first English side to defeat AC Milan at the San Siro beating them two goals to Nil, and it should not go without mentioning that in 2003 we had vanquished their city rivals Internazionale 5-1 in the same venue.
Arsenal*have won the League and FA Cup double twice under Arsene Wenger, most memorably in 2002 when a goal from Sylvain Wiltord allowed us to beat Manchester United 1-0 at Old Trafford, avenging the 6-1 demolition we had incurred the previous season and allowing us to take the title from them on their home turf.
This same club with pitiless and ruthless efficiency took Arsenal apart 8-2 yesterday consinging the gunners to their worst ever league defeat since the 19th century and the worst start to the season since 1987, however the rot has been growing for a while, in 2008 despite being five points clear in the league in february a collapse that allowed us to win only one league game from the next eight saw United triumph over us by four points, a year previously we went out of three competitions in the space of ten days with defeats to PSV, Blackburn and Chelsea in the european cup, fa cup and league cup respectively.
In the space of five years we have sold off countless players without bringing in any kind of significant replacement, and our transfer spending has been outmatched by the funds we have accumulated by selling off our best players.
2011 saw us squander a four goal lead away at Newcastle, suffer ignomonious defeat against a Birmingham City side who now play in a division below us in the league cup final and sell off our creative force in midfield in Cesc Fabregas and Samir Nasri who frankly both wanted to leave because of the astonishing lack of ambition being shown by the club.
There has been a dramatic change of emphasis at the club, in 2004 the Unbeaten side were all six foot plus and in addition to their technical ability was a physical prowess that made them hard to compete with, this has been changed for a team that is much smaller in height, physically less robust and seem to place the embellishment of their passing football above the ultimate goal of winning games., in defence there is a frightening lack of leadership with calamatous goals conceeded from one player waiting for one of their team mates to take the initiative. Up front there is a clear lack of decision making where a player will have torn through the defence to get themselves into a great position, but will dither between taking the shot on or *squaring for a team mate and more often than not make the wrong decision.
The Manager has become a grotesque parody of himself, his body language fluctuating from slumped despair to wild, spastic gesticulation cannot transmit confidence onto the pitch and is as much responsible for poor results as is the lack of willingness to learn from mistakes or to make signings in key positions when it is necessary.
The board are equally to blame, the chairman Peter Hill Wood often makes statements expressing his contempt for Arsenal fans whom in a style not dissimilar to Harold MacMillan states that we've never had it so good, and that the fans should be grateful for acheiving the supposedly monumental feat of acheiving champions league football season in season out (which on the basis of this year's start....and the lack of forthcoming signings makes qualification in 2012 seem dubious at best).
The constant failings are pointed out ad nauseum by every sports journalist around, and yet when the suggestion is made that Arsene Wenger should be removed from his duties.....they dismiss it as nonsense, simply for no better reason than his past acheivements..........with chelsea, liverpool, manchester united ....this debate would not have even occured as the Manager would have been sacked long before now.*
What will Arsene Wenger have to do before the board (Who arguably should be out the exit door with him) decides to make the decision that they were mistaken to give this man unchecked power and that he has lost the motivational strength,the ability to find quality players in the transfer market and his ability to get his teams to suceed in the face of adversity the way he once did. How humiliating will it have to get for Arsene Wenger before his pride caves in and he must decide that the enormity of the mess he has created has become too much for even him to circumvent.
How much worse must it get?

:gp:

The worse part for me is that not much has changed since then. We can for sure say now that we have more money to spend, but beside that, its a rewind and play every season.

I think losing the League Cup final and the subsequent collapse of that season was when I realised Wenger had probably taken us as far as he could. IIRC we were top in March but ended up winning 2 or 3 of our remaining 11 games and ended up in 4th.

Then to compound it all, Fabregas and Nasri jumped ship and we failed to do anything in the transfer market, which culminated in that horror show at Old Trafford where we could just about patch a team together. It was complete negligence. Feelings towards him were never the same after that and everything since then has just been one parody after another.

Birmingham Cup Final was a 'moment' for me where I thought he should move on.
I later relented but this year I think it was the week when we lost to Utd and then Swansea. Before that we'd just beaten Leicester to go 2 points behind them. It felt like a moment. We'd had our wobbles but that late goal...surely if anything is going to spur them on to push for the title it's that. 2 pathetic results later and we're out of it.

For me, it feels more like any long-term relationship that's run it's course: there's no one specific moment that you can point at - one day you just wake up and know that it's done. After that, every minute spent on it just feels like wasted time, and that's where the frustration and resentment starts to build up - every little, minor thing starts to bug you because you feel trapped by it and want out.

If I had to pick any one thing that's brought it all into focus, I'd say it's been watching what Leicester and spufs have been doing this year - it really has washed away the last of the "reasonable" excuses, and laid bare just how much the big clubs and the "top coaches" in this country have been underperforming, given their pull and resources. I could mentally write-off finishing 3rd or 4th to Chelsea and the Manchester clubs every year - irritating as it was, there was no shame in it. You could justify it on some level. This season has been an utter embarrassment though, and not just for us - Ranieri, Pochetino, and even guys like Bilic and Howe, have really shown up all the Wengers, and Mourons, an van Gaals, and Klopps etc in the league.

I think it was Le Grove who made the point the other day that a lot of the smaller clubs have actually been outperforming the bigger clubs for years now, in terms of coaching, tactics, fitness management, scouting and youth development - they've had to! It just hasn't really been that noticeable because the same old clubs always finished at the top every year, largely because of the wealth divide - if any of the smaller clubs did well, they'd have their squad picked apart by the big boys in the summer, and would be back to square one again by the start of the next season. Now the money has started to level out a bit though, and the smaller clubs are better able to keep their squads together (and supplement them with a few decent signings of their own), I think we're starting to see a noticeable difference in innovation and output?

On the plus side, the club do at least seem to be aware of a lot of these short-comings - we refreshed the fitness team last summer (work in progress), brought Jonker in to overhaul the academy, and look to have been on a massive youth-recruitment drive since then, and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the role of the head coach!

I don't know... I don't hate Wenger or anything - I could never hate the man who's given me the greatest Arsenal sides and the most entertaining football that I've ever seen (and probably ever will see) - it just feels like his time at management level is done, and I'm starting to get a little bit despondent about the time we're wasting. Quite frankly, I don't know why the club or Wenger himself are still persisting with it? The whole reason we did all of this was to make the club self-sustaining, and free from the influence of any one person, yet right at the last minute, when everything is finally in place, the club seem scared to let go of Wenger's hand, and Wenger seems scared to leave? It's got to happen sooner or later though. Even if he was at the absolute top of his game, he's still going to be a pensioner in October - this is something we're going to have to deal with, whether anyone is ready for it or not! I just wish he'd walk away, and take some pride and satisfaction in watching what comes next - all of his work has been about building this fantastic legacy, but he's never going to be able to enjoy that legacy until he steps away.

Quote:

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and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the guy at the top: Wenger.

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They both said no and have stayed at Leicester. Good for them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by I am invisible

For me, it feels more like any long-term relationship that's run it's course: there's no one specific moment that you can point at - one day you just wake up and know that it's done. After that, every minute spent on it just feels like wasted time, and that's where the frustration and resentment starts to build up - every little, minor thing starts to bug you because you feel trapped by it and want out.

If I had to pick any one thing that's brought it all into focus, I'd say it's been watching what Leicester and spufs have been doing this year - it really has washed away the last of the "reasonable" excuses, and laid bare just how much the big clubs and the "top coaches" in this country have been underperforming, given their pull and resources. I could mentally write-off finishing 3rd or 4th to Chelsea and the Manchester clubs every year - irritating as it was, there was no shame in it. You could justify it on some level. This season has been an utter embarrassment though, and not just for us - Ranieri, Pochetino, and even guys like Bilic and Howe, have really shown up all the Wengers, and Mourons, an van Gaals, and Klopps etc in the league.

I think it was Le Grove who made the point the other day that a lot of the smaller clubs have actually been outperforming the bigger clubs for years now, in terms of coaching, tactics, fitness management, scouting and youth development - they've had to! It just hasn't really been that noticeable because the same old clubs always finished at the top every year, largely because of the wealth divide - if any of the smaller clubs did well, they'd have their squad picked apart by the big boys in the summer, and would be back to square one again by the start of the next season. Now the money has started to level out a bit though, and the smaller clubs are better able to keep their squads together (and supplement them with a few decent signings of their own), I think we're starting to see a noticeable difference in innovation and output?

On the plus side, the club do at least seem to be aware of a lot of these short-comings - we refreshed the fitness team last summer (work in progress), brought Jonker in to overhaul the academy, and look to have been on a massive youth-recruitment drive since then, and we've just raided Leicester for one of their scouts (or was it two?)... the only thing holding this next stage back is the role of the head coach!

I don't know... I don't hate Wenger or anything - I could never hate the man who's given me the greatest Arsenal sides and the most entertaining football that I've ever seen (and probably ever will see) - it just feels like his time at management level is done, and I'm starting to get a little bit despondent about the time we're wasting. Quite frankly, I don't know why the club or Wenger himself are still persisting with it? The whole reason we did all of this was to make the club self-sustaining, and free from the influence of any one person, yet right at the last minute, when everything is finally in place, the club seem scared to let go of Wenger's hand, and Wenger seems scared to leave? It's got to happen sooner or later though. Even if he was at the absolute top of his game, he's still going to be a pensioner in October - this is something we're going to have to deal with, whether anyone is ready for it or not! I just wish he'd walk away, and take some pride and satisfaction in watching what comes next - all of his work has been about building this fantastic legacy, but he's never going to be able to enjoy that legacy until he steps away.

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:gp:

I for one am very glad that other teams are catching up. I think I prefer to watch races or competition where at least a good portion of the contestants/teams have a shot at winning the title. I seriously hope Leicester wins it this year... what a story its going to be!

I've always had my doubts that he could deliver us a title and I had a lingering feeling he was a dinosaur in a modern game but our gradual improvement the last few years when more money was being spent (relative) kept me reasonably hopeful and optimistic that I was wrong.

This season's colossal fuck up is what's finally made me lose my shit. Made even worse my the collapse of our usual title rivals (City, Utd and Chelsea) who all won't collapse as badly next time around. We won't ever get a glorious chance like this again ........ we didn't need an Invincible 90 points + season either, just a half decent competent season of 83+ points and that would have been enough. Yet we can't even manage that.

Like a lot of previously semi optimistic folks I want him gone no matter what.