Yes I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
Showing ambition isn't flash in the pan success with no plan for success afterwards tbh.
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Yes I do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
Showing ambition isn't flash in the pan success with no plan for success afterwards tbh.
I've not really been following this conversation but are you calling Wenger's 3 titles and 4 FA Cups over 7 seasons as 'flash in the pan' success?
If Dortmund can recover from this period and build another brilliant team then you know they mean business. All clubs go through this including the big ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
Flash in the pan!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
Just imagine you’re a young player at Borussia Dortmund, winner of the league for the past two seasons, runner up this time, in the semi’s of the cl, regarded as one of the best teams in Europe, one of the best stadiums in Europe, one of the most innovative training facilities in Europe, some of the best young talent pools in Europe and one of the most sought after managers in Europe.
So you’re involved in all this as a young player and thinking that this is not a club doing everything possible to be ‘ambitious’? If so, then agents have already got to you.
Ambition means to work hard toward a larger success. What part of that is not taking place here?
Sadly, some can only correlate ambition with spending shitloads.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
I wasn't even talking about Wenger :unsure:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
But certainly the last 7 years show a lack of ambition by the club.
I agree with this, it's sustaining success not building a team then seeing it being dismantled and going back to mediocrity.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
If this club sells it's top players without replacing them adequately and goes backwards because it doesn't, then I guess the answer is no they aren't doing everything possible to be ambitious.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
I can understand a team like Dortmund losing it's top players, it's not great for them but there's bigger clubs out there with greater history of success, Dortmund had a great team about 10 years ago as well and it hasn't really kicked on from there.
The clubs with real ambition try and achieve sustained success or at least try to for trophies year after year. In the real world a top player isn't going to want to stick around at a club he feels will sell off it's best players and pocket the cash, clubs like Bayern, Real, Barca, Man U, Chelsea, Man City (I know the latter two are bankrolled) etc will always attract top players because at the end of the day those players know they'll be chasing success (ok they'll get paid handsomely as well but that isn't the only criteria).
none of that addresses what i've written at all.
gotze had a clause in his contract activated - they had no choice but to sell. Lewandowski is in the last year of his contract next season. if they attempted to replace players and failed to 'push on', why would that be categorised as 'lacking ambition'? if they just couldn't duplicate the success, or bayern swept everyone away for quite some time for example does that mean that only achieving success demonstrates ambition? you cannot be ambitious yet fail to succeed your goals? bit of a downer for anyone across the world hoping to achieve something in their life.
your definition of ambition is somewhat out of sync with the true meaning of the word.
I think it's pretty clear if you're try to achieve success to be honest, generally clubs who give it a go are there or thereabouts, they don't languish in midtable and fail time after time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
The point isn't about the clause (though once again the clause is set when the contract is signed so is up for negotiation, so clearly that's the price they put on his head), it's about players wanting to stick around. Dortmund have are pretty good at the moment and have done well in the last few years, but as I've said before about 10 years ago it was a similar story and they eventually went backwards and really struggled.
As for being ambitious and failing, you could argue that's what happened to Liverpool, but eventually they ran out of money and stopped being as appealing to players, though they still manage to sign some decent players. Success is the marker at the end of the day.
Fair enough. Sorry. You usually are :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
As I said I wasn't really following the conversation.
Carry on :tiphat:
success, i would imagine in your eyes, means trophies so mid table averageness doesn't come into it. finishing second to bayern for a while wouldn't be deemed as success in your eyes i'd imagine.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
as i've explained the whole structure around the club and on the pitch is very much one of big success and that of huge ambition. if a player does not want to stick around for more of that, then it doesn't come down to anything but greed, particularly if they stay in the same country - you could make an argument for going to england/spain or italy to try something new.
your definition of ambition revolves around money and trophies, which does not make any sense. you need ambition to get there in the first place, something dortmund have understood and are seeminly setting everything in place to continue that. if an agent of a player fights to have a clause inserted, or a star striker does not sign a new contract then there is little to be down except look for replacements, which I’m sure they’ll do but to suggest they lack ambition because of that is insane. They are one of most forward thinking clubs around right now, full to the brim with ambition, plans and more importantly the ability to achieve. The idea that money and guaranteed success is the only marker for ‘ambition’ is failed ideal that too many fans have swallowed forced down their necks by the money men ruining the game for the past decade or so.
We'll have to see if they are indeed ambitious or whether it's just circumstances that makes them what they are today, if they're still around in 5 years time challenging then yes you coud say they have ambition, if they go back to what they were then you'd have to say perhaps not.
They're in a very good position, lots of quality players, some success and inevitably lots of money...it's important they re-invest that and try to build on it.
As for success being money and trophies, well in a players eyes it's is and that's what matters. Players don't want to spend their career at a club where his chances of success are minimal (I'm not necessarily talking about Dortmund here btw).
Goetze's move is no surprise, Bayern are the biggest club in German football, have a history of success and not settling for 2nd best, they have a similar pull in Germany as clubs like Barca and Real have worldwide, they're the Man U of German football and most top players would love to play for them, Dortmund can't compete with that unless they win CL's and challenge Bayern every season for the trophies.
What if they do re-invest but can't quite manage to sustain the level they're at now? That wouldn't happen through a lack of ambition, that would be because their current crop are exceptional and it's always difficult to replace players like that and expect things to be as they were.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
I think if they re-invest they should be up there, that's unless they have a hopeless manager. They get 32 million for Goetze that's a fair bit of cash. As I said though top players want to be at clubs that have a good chance of winning, Liverpool was the example I gave, they have invested heavily but in recent times it's been harder for them to attract top players because despite their illustrious history they're not really challenging these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Overmars
I think a big name manager with ambitious plans can change things for a club like them though, it's just that Brendan Rodgers is unknown which makes it more difficult.
that's the point, they are ambitious, right now! everything is in place to keep pushing for success, which is the correct definition of ambition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
players have been warped by agents and money, as have many fans who have fallen into the same trap of believing the same rubbish. as we are talking about gotze, he was in no position to believe that his chances of success were minimal given what they've won, where they are now and everything set up around him.
moving to a larger club in your country that you are competing with right now doesn't show 'ambition' it shows greed. he has won the league twice already. how many times will he win the cl at bayern? once or twice, which given the path dortmund are on is not too dissimilar. perhaps if he was in his mid to late 20's and wanted to play for a club with an illustrious history i could buy into that but when you are 20, there can be only one reason, given his success so far.
success doesn't equal ambition, ambition leads to success.
He said he wanted to play for Pep.
The timing of the story stinks. It disrupts their CL prep. Bayern have played a little dirty.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2...estions-timing
You dont have much of a face either :sulk:Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
:(
This Goat person , Bayern thing, is the reason I can never be mad with what clubs like Chelsea, PSG, City are doing. You try and build up the so-called "right" way. And every season, your best players are getting plucked from you. Even if you manage some success, because you're not one of the so-called clubs with "history", it doesn't matter.
Depressing, but you're right.
There's always going to be bigger, better clubs out there. The only thing you can do is do your best to improve and increase your appeal, Man U are a pretty desirable club who can sign most players but that's because they've been massively successful.Quote:
Originally Posted by hobson's choice
That doesn't stop them losing to players sometimes of course, but it happens only occasionally and when it does they re-invest the money.
If you want to keep losing all your best players though, well then our policy is perfect, don't spend, don't buy top players, don't win anything and don't be too concerned about it.
This is the worst thing. We have lost a great deal of lustre through sheer mismanagement and lack of ambition. We used to be able to attract top talent because of our, and our manager's reputation. We are far less of a draw to players now and it could easily become a vicious circle.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Not sure I agree with you there. Clearly we used to have ambition. Not building on success is mismanagement rather than lack of ambition. But if ambition means doing everything you can to win stuff, then we are simply not ambitious any more. And the worry is that at board level, there's noone left with any true desire for footballing success.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
We had ambition when Dein was around yes, but actually I was talking about Dortmund here.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
Nowadays we're not ambitious, we don't aspire to compete with the best or indeed win trophies, 4th is what we aspire to and that's no ambition.
...and Fiszman - although ironically he ousted DD...Quote:
Originally Posted by Arse n Wonga
Are we not ambitious or is it more to do with the fact we don't have the money due to building a new stadium. That should all start changing now that we have our sponsorship deals coming to renewal, so lets wait and see.
I don't think its a concidence that Wenger says we must make a £20-25m profit on every transfer window.
I think that's a lot to do with it. We always knew that short-term there would be a lot of belt tightening. 2013/14 was always the target, with the commercial renewals.Quote:
Originally Posted by server too busy!
Time will tell.
We're not ambitious, it's clear the club are only interested in money...everything they do and say is indicative of that.Quote:
Originally Posted by server too busy!
There's nothing to wait and see and nothing will change, people have been making excuses about this and that for years, but let's face it there's no sign of anything changing.
This belt tightening BS is precisely that, it's a good excuse for them to rake in the cash and spend nothing.
No thanksQuote:
Arsenal have revived their interest in Sevilla's 26-year-old Argentine defender Federico Fazio.
Full story: Daily Mail
The Gunners are also interested in Hamburg's 28-year-old goalkeeper Rene Adler after being priced out of moves for Sunderland's Simon Mignolet and Asmir Begovic of Stoke.
Full story: Daily Mirror
FC Basel's Austrian defender Aleksander Dragovic, 22, is ready to snub a move to Arsenal and German side Borussia Dortmund to join Everton.
Full story: talkSPORT
Better than what we have
Losing out to Everton :lol: How the mighty have fallen
Priced out for both those goalkeepers? I know it's just media shite but if there's any truth to it then it's a fair indication of what our war chestthimble is going to look like come the summer.
It's shite. . .but so is the apparant amount we have to spend or at least I'll believe it when I see it
It's disgusting and despicable that we haven't signed lewandowski yet tbh
:sulk:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/foo...elo-Selva.html
Arsenal appear to have won the race for another highly-rated Barcelona youngster as the north London club look set to capture 16-year-old Julio Pleguezuelo Selva.
Premier League rivals Tottenham and Manchester City were both tracking the teenager, but Arsenal manager Arsene Wenger is set to prevail in the chase for Selva’s signature.
If the Gunners are successful they will land the Spaniard on the cheap, as he hasn’t yet signed a contract at Barca, according to the Daily Mirror.
Arsene please. It's all about the Bundesliga now :thumbsdown:
Yay zzzzzzzzzz
Yeah...though a lot of it IMHO is to do with Arsene's "principled stance" on what he feels is the "right price" to pay for a keeper.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
This summer will be no different to previous summers..aside from the fact that this year we don't actually have any decent players teams want.
I think it Was the stadium, but since then we have seemingly thrown in the towel as regards our 'richer' competitors; naively awaited FFP and focusses on commercial, rather than footballing success under a manager who has had his day.Quote:
Originally Posted by server too busy!
Time for usmanov tbh.
Time to relaunch operation bring cesc home again I think. Him, jack, Cazorla in the midfield. Footballing porn that is
Cesc is not much of midfielder anymore really.