Wenger Referendum: Yes Or No

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Originally Posted by Maestro

BLAAAAAAAMMMMM!!!!!

Chuck Kos in there and that's four world class players. Build a decent squad around that and apply some tactics, you're good to go.

Wenget is finished, defending him at this point is just moronic.

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And yet people still do, whilst the vociferous "Wenger knows best" voice is declining i still don't think there is great appetite amongst the majority of the fan base to see him turfed out.

GW as we have seen in the Wenger referendum thread has pretty much turned on the man, whilst we still enjoy good performances and victories i don't think there is realistically anyone left here who thinks he is the man to take us forward.

At the same time, i do spend enough time on other Arsenal forums to recognise that GW is probably one of the most Anti Wenger boards in existence (this is not to say that people who hold this opinion are wrong, i certainly don't believe he can take us forward), but i think we have to accept that fans that still have a great deal of faith in him aren't just a few deluded individuals...there are a great number of them.

Loyalty, or the notion of it. Faithful dogs who lie by the deceased until they starve to death themselves. Loyalty is good, but not when applied to modern football. We've just had a fun week watching the most senior figures in the game feathering their nests in public. What an exhibition. Football's not a thing you want to be wasting loyalty on because it's now in the hands of those who won't give anything back. Nothing, not the steam off their piss. It's difficult for fans who remember tribal loyalty, even more difficult for fans who haven't sussed the game has changed. People aren't idiots for wanting to stick by their club, they just don't realise the club is no longer there. It will take different individuals different amounts of time to let it go. We shouldn't lose respect for the past though because that stuff really happened and we were all part of it. It was the brilliance of that which attracted the money squids and the chavs and the gypos and the Bayerns and Blatters and the spoiled bitches in their £230,000 cars.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

Loyalty, or the notion of it. Faithful dogs who lie by the deceased until they starve to death themselves. Loyalty is good, but not when applied to modern football.

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All very laudable, however i wasn't discussing the merits of loyalty...merely the reality of the situation.

That as much as we see the necessity of Wenger going as a "no brainer" quite a large amount of the fan base don't quite see it like that.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

And yet people still do, whilst the vociferous "Wenger knows best" voice is declining i still don't think there is great appetite amongst the majority of the fan base to see him turfed out.

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It is possible to think we need to move on from Wenger and also think he's not a clueless bumbling French ****.
So yes, I will defend him against the worst of the abuse he gets on here.

This season has been a bit of a balls up but we are still 3rd and we're in the FA Cup quarter finals - I was quite bullish about that game until Wednesday, now I fear an all too predictable capitulation but we'll see. After that game we could be 3rd and in the FA Cup semi-finals.

IMO it's a bit harsh the abuse Wenger's getting on here the season after we've just won the FA Cup although he certainly deserves criticism for the way we've contrived to sign well in the summer and still get worse overall. We seem to have been picking up a bit of late (again, until Wednesday) but it's not been good enough.

It was fair to give Wenger a chance to get through the stadium move restrictions before making a judgement. It was fair to give him a year when the financial situation eased and a bit of money came on tap. Fair enough to give him a second year to see the results of his spending. Would be idiotic to give him a third because, if anything, the situation is now worse. We have a better squad but we're still blowing the big games we should be winning. Not just last week but that game against Utd, or the painfully predictable draw against Liverpool. Same old problems. It has to be down to the manager. He's the constant.

As a football man he's not a "bumbling idiot", obviously. But on match day, when he's called into action to manage affairs on the pitch too often he's made look a complete idiot by his opposite number. The Monaco coach hauled him through the streets, into the village square, stuck him in the stocks and pelted him with shit in the most recent example. Wenger actually states the players were not mentally prepared. That's not acceptable. You don't need money to be mentally prepared. Chavs and gypo billions don't prevent the team being mentally prepared. Injuries don't prevent it. Refs don't prevent it. He admits he's failed to take care of one of the most basic tasks.

If we want 4th place every season and a run to the last 16 of the CL then we have the right man in charge. We know we'll get that at least (and at most) with Wenger. But what was the point of the stadium move if that's all we're aiming for as a club? The board has to decide what it wants. A nice cosy earner every year or to compete at the top of football. If they are in it for the football then Wenger has to go. If Wenger stays then the fans have their answer.

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Originally Posted by Letters

It is possible to think we need to move on from Wenger and also think he's not a clueless bumbling French ****.
So yes, I will defend him against the worst of the abuse he gets on here.

This season has been a bit of a balls up but we are still 3rd and we're in the FA Cup quarter finals - I was quite bullish about that game until Wednesday, now I fear an all too predictable capitulation but we'll see. After that game we could be 3rd and in the FA Cup semi-finals.

IMO it's a bit harsh the abuse Wenger's getting on here the season after we've just won the FA Cup although he certainly deserves criticism for the way we've contrived to sign well in the summer and still get worse overall. We seem to have been picking up a bit of late (again, until Wednesday) but it's not been good enough.

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He's finished can't you see that, time and time again he' been shown up and left wanting, how many more times do you need to see it happen before you finally accept that as a top level manager he can cut it.

I'm tired of seeing these horrible defeats we have to put up with several times a season now, they use to be things we only saw once in a blue moon now they happen several times a season, last season we suffered a fair few humiliations...yes we got 4th, but when you look at the competition and how they have performed it really doesn't say a lot, this season we're 3rd but every team bar Chelsea and Man City have had a season close to disastrous (of those fighting for 4th) by their standards, we owe the fact we're 3rd to the fact it's been a very poor quality PL so far, not to the fact we've played well and earnt it.....when will it all end?

Not being an absolute bumbling idiot is the only tenable defence of Wenger here. Faint, faint praise I think. Whenever the eyes of the world are on Wenger and his team they almost always are guaranteed to balls it up. The whole French nation was probably tuned in to watch that match. If I were him and Giroud I would keep my trap shut for at least 3 months. He has no credibility left even in his home country. No wonder French television dropped him from commentary. People will be asking themselves "What insight can this king of fk ups give us into top flight football".

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Originally Posted by Özim

this season we're 3rd but every team bar Chelsea and Man City have had a season close to disastrous (of those fighting for 4th) by their standards, we owe the fact we're 3rd to the fact it's been a very poor quality PL so far, not to the fact we've played well and earnt it.....

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We're all sick of the endless Groundhog Day and we pretty much all agree that we need to move on from Wenger.
But would some of the names being banded around actually be better?

Last season you went on and on about Rodgers but Liverpool have been nowhere this season. They are picking up now so they could yet finish top 4 but they didn't sustain their title challenge to the end last year and they've not challenged this year. Suarez being on insane form and having no European football last year did help them, they've struggled to sustain let alone build on last season.

Klopp was hailed as the answer but this year Dortmund have spent much of this season fighting relegation.

Some people were even touting Moyes a couple of years back :lol:

Wenger is, if nothing else, consistent. I think you underestimate how hard that is. Perennial top 4 finishes aren't the be all and end all - although they were vital in the early days of the Emirates when we had to get the CL income - but he's been a safe pair of hands and will probably continue to be. You seem to be under the impression that Wenger is so clueless that any idiot will come along and be better. I don't believe that's the case.

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Originally Posted by Letters

We're all sick of the endless Groundhog Day and we pretty much all agree that we need to move on from Wenger.
But would some of the names being banded around actually be better?

Last season you went on and on about Rodgers but Liverpool have been nowhere this season. They are picking up now so they could yet finish top 4 but they didn't sustain their title challenge to the end last year and they've not challenged this year. Suarez being on insane form and having no European football last year did help them, they've struggled to sustain let alone build on last season.

Klopp was hailed as the answer but this year Dortmund have spent much of this season fighting relegation.

Some people were even touting Moyes a couple of years back :lol:

Wenger is, if nothing else, consistent. I think you underestimate how hard that is. Perennial top 4 finishes aren't the be all and end all - although they were vital in the early days of the Emirates when we had to get the CL income - but he's been a safe pair of hands and will probably continue to be. You seem to be under the impression that Wenger is so clueless that any idiot will come along and be better. I'm don't believe that's the case.

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Your metronomic same as always defence of Wenger as a safe pair of hands convinces few. In fact you and Ollie need to do a name swap as even he has come to see reality for what is is a never ending cycle of running faster to stay in the same place. Few managers are guaranteed to succeed. Ancelotti was great at Milan for a few seasons then stagnated badly and was kicked out. Koeman tanked badly at Valencia. Yet here he is now. Even Moyes, rightly derided after his United debacle is doing better than anyone expected at Sociedad. Bottom line is Wenger is 65, peaked as a manager 10 years ago and is declining rapidly before our very eyes. We could keep spending (frittering) more millions to stay 4th but nowadays that position is mostly a prestige trinket more than anything else. The one thing most people accept is that we will never win the CL under Wenger. He will always be found out in that higher calibre of manager. So our only reason for being it is the money, the prestige and the power of attracting players. Players who will soon move on after seeing our no hoper reality for themselves. We have seen it before. What perturbs me the most is that 4th place no longer guarantees anything. 10 years ago the EPL only had 3 places. The more we tank in Europe along with City and Pool, the more likely we will see us revert to 3 participants only. Everything is transient. We cannot be afraid of failing and so never make a change. Wenger loves this job, left to his own devices he will be here another decade. The excuse that other managers could be worse is not viable. Right now I would take any of 15 coaches in the Premier league ahead of Wenger.

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Your metronomic same as always defence of Wenger as a safe pair of hands convinces few.

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I'm not trying to convince anyone of that or debating it. He has been a safe pair of hands. We have qualified for the CL every year under him and while I accept we'll never win it under him you say later in your post the 'only' reason for being in it...and then go on to list 3 very important reasons. Clubs are spending silly money to try and break into the top 4 and none have consistently succeeded, apart from Wenger. I think we all agre he is not the right man to push on but it's disrespectful (and clearly untrue) to think that any idiot can do better (I'm not sure if anyone has actually said that but the way people talk about him on hear implies they think that) and Wenger deserves credit for what he's done for us and if he left at the end of the season (I doubt he will) he'd leave us with a very good squad and in great shape financially. I saw today that we have a surplus of over £100m, Utd have debts of over £300m. Wenger has his faults which make us all want to throttle him sometimes but he isn't the clueless buffoon some on here make out.

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Originally Posted by Letters

I'm not trying to convince anyone of that or debating it. He has been a safe pair of hands. We have qualified for the CL every year under him and while I accept we'll never win it under him you say later in your post the 'only' reason for being in it...and then go on to list 3 very important reasons. Clubs are spending silly money to try and break into the top 4 and none have consistently succeeded, apart from Wenger. I think we all agre he is not the right man to push on but it's disrespectful (and clearly untrue) to think that any idiot can do better (I'm not sure if anyone has actually said that but the way people talk about him on hear implies they think that) and Wenger deserves credit for what he's done for us and if he left at the end of the season (I doubt he will) he'd leave us with a very good squad and in great shape financially. I saw today that we have a surplus of over £100m, Utd have debts of over £300m. Wenger has his faults which make us all want to throttle him sometimes but he isn't the clueless buffoon some on here make out.

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Minus £82m we owe on transfers....
Wenger little bit 2% short of domination

Right now I would take any of 15 coaches in the Premier league ahead of Wenger

Really?. Now for me that argument smacks of familiarity breeding contempt, that some fans are so bored of how things are currently that they would literally take anyone.

Rodgers is a fraud who is just as tactically naive as Wenger (and just look at the amount of money he's wasted on players)
Pellegrini much the same, filled that City squad with a load of average players since he took over
Mourinho we couldn't have here because his narcassism would destroy any shred of integrity we still maintain to have as a club
Van Gaal is an arrogant fool who is as much of a dinosaur as Wenger in his coaching and training methods (look at the injuries they have, it's no coincidence)
Koeman and Pochetinno have potential but we all said the same about Martinez last season and look how much he's struggling this season

No other manager in the Premier League is even worth mentioning. And you mention Moyes and Real Sociedad?. Firstly that's about the level of club management that Moyes is good for, second of all is he really actually doing that well there?.....this is a team that qualified for the Champions League two seasons ago and hasn't won away from home at all this season.

I'm sick of the same year in, year out......i'm sick of the same mistakes.....but i'm not prepared for things to get worse just for change for changes' sake.

Wenger's time is up, whether it's now or whether he limps on till 2017, but it's not just about getting rid of him it's about bringing someone in who can take us forward.

And frankly i'd rather keep Wenger till 2017 if it meant getting in someone like Guardiola, than getting rid of him at the end of the season and ending up with someone like Roberto Martinez.

Yes you are right i am familiar with Wengers horseshit and I have nothing but contempt for it. He is doing nothing special. We are the 4th richest team in the EPL and he regularly comes 4th. Why does he deserve special praise for that?. We have never has a history of employing top managers and we somehow have accumulated more titles than anyone except United. So no, we dont have to wait for Guardiola . If Wenger got struck by lightning tomorrow anyone of 15 managers would still get 4th...and we wouldn't regularly get humiliated like we do now.

amazing how we are lying in 3rd position in the league, within a whisker of 2nd ..after what we consider to have been a poor season so far.

.....:run:

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Originally Posted by Maestro

amazing how we are lying in 3rd position in the league, within a whisker of 2nd ..after what we consider to have been a poor season so far.

.....:run:

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I think this season has definitely been worse in terms of performances than results in that, we have won or drawn many games where the performances have been diabolical. However it's all relative because we haven't seen the Monster humiliations like last season.

We were 3rd this time last year as well but we were also 8 or 9 points better off and involved in the title race.

Yes, just checked (thanks, statto.com) and we were 8 points better off and only a point off the top.
It does feel like it's been a bad season but after the early season gloom we are picking up, we're 3rd, in touching distance of 2nd and in the FA Cup Quarter Finals. It's hardly been a disaster so far.

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I think this season has definitely been worse in terms of performances than results in that, we have won or drawn many games where the performances have been diabolical. However it's all relative because we haven't seen the Monster humiliations like last season.

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Wait for FA Cup at Man U. On present form I would worry about playing Corinthian Casuals

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

We were 3rd this time last year as well but we were also 8 or 9 points better off and involved in the title race.

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true, guess the league has been poor overall in general tbh

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Originally Posted by rodders

Wait for FA Cup at Man U. On present form I would worry about playing Corinthian Casuals

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Even if we get past United, we're not stopping the Stevie Me farewell/birthday story tbh.

The quality of our football has fallen deeper into the shitter and it's hard to believe that was possible following last season's pub antics. We look every bit the English team these days, apart from the odd moment when a bit of football manifests due to the individual abilities of the players, muscle memory I suppose. So it's not a disastrous season, that's stating it too mildly. It's catastrophic and being third has northing to do with it because every team in this league is pub grade shit. Think about it. The chavs and gypos topping the league? Nobody will remember these teams, they are unremarkable. This isn't the Liverpool or Utd or Arsenal of old. It's humiliating to be finish beneath shit like the chavs even if they do have a ton of stolen cash. Chuck in losing to the spuds, gifting Utd a win, pissing it away in the CL when we had a genuine chance to get murdered in the quarters, there's nothing particularly impressive or even mildly interesting going on this season.

I would like to see some decent football. That would do me.

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Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn

The quality of our football has fallen deeper into the shitter and it's hard to believe that was possible following last season's pub antics. We look every bit the English team these days, apart from the odd moment when a bit of football manifests due to the individual abilities of the players, muscle memory I suppose. So it's not a disastrous season, that's stating it too mildly. It's catastrophic and being third has northing to do with it because every team in this league is pub grade shit. Think about it. The chavs and gypos topping the league? Nobody will remember these teams, they are unremarkable. This isn't the Liverpool or Utd or Arsenal of old. It's humiliating to be finish beneath shit like the chavs even if they do have a ton of stolen cash. Chuck in losing to the spuds, gifting Utd a win, pissing it away in the CL when we had a genuine chance to get murdered in the quarters, there's nothing particularly impressive or even mildly interesting going on this season.

I would like to see some decent football. That would do me.

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I genuinely think our malaise in terms of quality is just part of the overall lack of quality in general, i think the whole package of the English premiership being sold as the best league in the world is a big a fraud as selling a Spanish Beach Villa in Zaragoza. But it's not just the premier league, the whole of Europe has become a one or two club procession and it's not just because of the financial disparity (although that is a massive part) it's also because there just isn't quality in depth in football....how many brilliant strikers are there out there, how many brilliant holding midfielders are there etc.
England as a national side is as average as it's always been, but it's retained it's mediocrity despite a massive dip of quality (in the 1990s would a striker like Welbeck who has never been able to hit ten league goals a season be a mainstay in the national side?).
Don't get me wrong what i am saying is well beyond the pro or anti wenger arguments it's about football in general, for decent football to occur you need a larger pool of decent footballers.

I'm talking about basics like passing, being able to cross a ball, basic defending, tackling, staying on your feet instead of flying into the air at the slightest touch, the hysteria when a player temporarily achieves the basics. Look at that kid playing for Everton, can't even remember his name but he had the rare ability to look up and hit a cross into the box without hitting the first defender, lofting up a simple catch for the keeper or bashing it to the other corner flag. One for the future, apparently. It's ludicrous.

I want this and I want it now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glsaOQka-Mg

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Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie

I genuinely think our malaise in terms of quality is just part of the overall lack of quality in general, i think the whole package of the English premiership being sold as the best league in the world is a big a fraud as selling a Spanish Beach Villa in Zaragoza. But it's not just the premier league, the whole of Europe has become a one or two club procession and it's not just because of the financial disparity (although that is a massive part) it's also because there just isn't quality in depth in football....how many brilliant strikers are there out there, how many brilliant holding midfielders are there etc.
England as a national side is as average as it's always been, but it's retained it's mediocrity despite a massive dip of quality (in the 1990s would a striker like Welbeck who has never been able to hit ten league goals a season be a mainstay in the national side?).
Don't get me wrong what i am saying is well beyond the pro or anti wenger arguments it's about football in general, for decent football to occur you need a larger pool of decent footballers.

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I think the talent and quality is there but it all gets gobbled up by elite clubs so you don't see a spread of talent anymore and it's done all so quickly. Just look how quickly James Rodriguez was snapped up by Real and that young kid they just bought. Any sign of talent gets snapped up before a player can really make a name for himself under the smaller club these days.

Also, the desire for clubs to have a 11 superstar players in every position just stifles creativity. Back in the 90s/00s you had one or two magical players at one team with specific roles. Then Real Madrid decided to shove Zidance, Figo, Raul, Beckham and Ronaldo into one team. Why the heck would Ronaldo need to do the sort of magic he pulled at Inter and drop deep when you have a long ball specialist like Beckham that can create a goal scoring from the halfway line? How does a player like that effect Figo and Zidane? Now we have teams like Barca with Messi, Neymar and Suarez in one squad. It stifles creativity and just makes players lazy. It's not just the super rich that do it either. We do it ourselves when trying to play little attacking midfielders in every possible position. It kills creativity and you only get to see a fraction of what an individual can do.

Quiet in here today :whistle:

:banghead:

As I've previously said, retain the cup, otherwise Wenger out.

I hope some of you are hanging your heads in shame after last night. :sulk:

No excuse not to win the cup now. Just pub team filth left.

maybe we should keep him now ....:trophy:

:run:

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

As I've previously said, retain the cup, otherwise Wenger out.

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Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

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Perhaps. But maybe this result will encourage Letters to relax his hate campaign against the guy, just a touch.

Wenger isn't going anywhere until his contract finishes... they aren't going to get rid of him if he retains the FA Cup and finish 3rd. Which is actually a pretty good season, especially if we can pull off the miracle of Monaco.

I actually think he has another contract extension in him.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Wenger out even if we win the cup. It's his time and he goes on a high at least.

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I don't think I'd be churlish enough to complain after 9 years without a trophy to then see 2 come around in successive seasons. However I do acknowledge we're not going to improve much in the league or CL with him and that is ultimately our long term goal which he can't deliver. So on that basis, Wenger out.

It is all about the League for me. The CL is gravy.

Still has to go at the end of the season. You know what might make me reconsider my position? 3 things:
- Challenge for the PL till the last day of the season or at least the last month
- Have a realistic chance of winning the Champions League or being one of the big dogs
- Beating Chelsea under Mourinho

The first two are not going to happen this season. I would be ecstatic with the last one... IF AW can come up with a game plan to defeat Chelsea, then that means we have seriously made progress.

Or it could be another great tactical masterstroke by the. Special needs one to keep Wenger in hos post.

Hopefully that masterstroke also means they somehow not win the title. I think I'd prefer to see Tottenham win it over those scums.