Fergie plays 4-5-1 so yeah one of them goes on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Fergie plays 4-5-1 so yeah one of them goes on the bench.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
He plays 4-5-1 because he does not have the best player in the league in his team.
Look, you made a mong statement in what was otherwise a fairly decent point. Deal with it and stop digging.
I'm comparing it to Man City's. And I would say it's on a similar, if not lower, level than Chelsea's. But in any case, the point isn't about how many teams have better squads, it's how much Man City's squad is better. To be neck-and-neck with them is a pretty good achievement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
Welbeck had been starting with Rooney quite often. I think the whole argument about who gets in to the other's team a bit nebulous though. We don't play as Man Utd do in an attacking sense so what players they have are not neccesarily the ones that would start for us and vica-versa.
He won last year. Give Wenger that same crop of players to coach and he'd struggle. Disagree if you want about league positions but it's still no excuse to lose out every year in the Carling Cup and FA Cup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
No they both play in a 433. its just that Bebatov is poor and Harnadez has had second season blues.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
How did Fergie do in the CC and FA Cup this year?Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I think Wenger is shit but we're not going to do any better, all I'm saying is it's tough to win shit these days. You should have set your sights lower a long time ago. Most of us could see the glory days were long gone when Roman came to town. We now have a sheikh to deal with too.
You may be right, but we'll never know. so its an irrlevant point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Spot fucking on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
Yeah sure but Manure have 20yrs worth of winning mentality and are the biggest club in the league. That still brings a lot of fear factor which gets you a long way. Lot's of teams (and ref's) don't even bother turning up against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Syn
We don't have that.
I still think you're underestimating Manure's squad but it's all about opinions. And of course Fergie is better than Wenger.
Yep its silly to compare us to the Mancs it don't make a bit of sense comparing us with a club better then us and like you say has that fear factor etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
Good point. It's definitely true that to beat Man Utd to the league you can't just be a little bit better than them - you have to be a lot better than them. That's not crazy paranoia shit, it's the truth. It seems Man City are indeed a lot better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
He won the league last year and the team hasn't changed that much. Last year's squad was weaker than the he has now. But regardless of that, it's bloody embarrssing that we lose a Carling Cup final against Birmingham City. Talk about funds and budgets go out the window when you look at that fact. Also, we consistently lose to teams like that in the league. Our recent barren run shows that. We've gone beyond the point of transfer funds and budgets. This is bad management.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grebbo
I think that what Wenger says and what Wenger means deep down are two entirely different things. He aims to win the league every single season. He aims to win the Champions League at the beginning of every season. The contempt he's shown in the recent past for the two domestic cups through team selection would suggest he's not after those trophies so much. This is why, when he says 3rd is 'like a trophy', I don't read too much into it. He doesn't have a poker face. You can tell he's disappointed for having gone through a trophyless campaign. Furthermore, coming back to the age-old argument, would we take a Carling Cup success over Champions League qualification? Speak to any Liverpool fan this month. They certainly wouldn't. However, I do agree with Arsenal fans when they say such successes shouldn't be mutually exclusive.
Back to the question about a top-bracket manager going so many years without a trophy- I can only think of Fabio Capello, but I'm not entirely sure if he was manager at Real Madrid when they won La Liga back in 2007 :unsure:
Spot on tbh people read too much into that Top 4 being a trophy crap, yes he says it but i doubt he means it, i just think he says it so his young players confidence is protected.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernesto
If this was a man who did not care about trophy's then why after we lost to barca the last 2 times did he look so defeatist.
Why when we loose big games does he sulk so much.
Aw needs to be less Stubbon and treat these kids like grown men then they be better off for it.
Wenger would win a lot more stuff, even with this crap team if only he could get his midfield to track back when a counterattack is going on. I mean this level of professionalism should not require a top bracket manager to instil, even shit teams managed by a walrus like Aston Villa do it FFS
The first paragraph isn't fair. When we're failing you can see how much it hurts him. He clearly wants us to still succeed. He may have lost the ability to succeed but not the ambition. As for the 2nd paragraph, the first half of his time with us was the most successful in our modern history. 2 doubles, an unbeaten league season and, arguably as important, all done with a style of football the like of which I'd never seen Arsenal play. The later trophies under Graham were impressive in that they were won with a pretty mediocre side but the boring football was awful to watch and the league form was pathetic. If you just care about the end result of a season, not too bad. If you follow the journey it was 8 months of dirge followed by a decent end. The 2nd half of Wenger's time with us has been disappointing but he's kept us in the top few year after year despite the rise of billionaire owners and other sides spending big to try and displace us. And all done against the backdrop of a complex stadium move which has restricted spending and awful commercial deals which have restricted income for a club of our stature (although he could and should have spent more). Against this backdrop I think he's done well to keep us in the top few. Having done so though, the failure to win any trophies is damning and no manager at a comparable club would have kept his job for this long. The football has been less good (although still loads better than the dirge in the latter Graham years) but overall to say his record is 'not that great' is simplistic revisionism IMO.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
So he looks defeated, so what? If he really cared he'd try and do something about it, the actions on the sidelines are just frustration at the time, if he it killed him that much he'd be out there every summer breaking his back to get better players in and dealing with the problem areas just like all the top managers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
IMO he'd like to win but is satisfied with 4th and no trophies, a manager who isn't doesn't do the things he does, they do everything in their power to win.
I liken it to a compulsive liar who believes what he says, Wenger is animated on the touchlines and believes he is desperate to win but the reality is that winning isn't as important as it should be to him.
As mentioned above, it might hurt him at the time, but he soon seems to forget...how else can you explain what he does in the transfer market and how stubborn he is after years of failure?Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
The first part of his spell was great that's true, but look at his overally record, I wouldn't say it's that fantastic, you can't ignore 7 years without a trophy. In the Graham days firstly we were banned from Europe and then we only had one CL place until later on, the motivation to comes 4th wasn't there in terms of getting a place in the CL. I'd also say it depends whether you think 4th place is an achievement, personally I don't, we get into the CL as 4th place team which is a joke in itself let's face it, the reward for 4th should be the Europa league not Europe's premier competition.
The money aspect is relevant of course but his signings haven't been good, he's consistently gone for cheap nobodies who mostly have in the end disappointed, if you have genuine aspirations on winning you need top players, we've had some in the past but due to our lack of competitiveness (trophy wise) and unwillingness to invest we've lost them.
If he diid not care he would not look defeated simple he just give 1 or 2 excues ans be done with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
I not convinced he is happy with 4th just because he says it means nothing.
He has never said it when we were in comps only when e get knocked out of them or look like we may go out.
maybe he needs more motivation for winning but i still say his ambtion to win is there.
Of course he cares....however this amplifies the very simple truth that he is simply not good enough anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
We have lost it on so many fronts over the last 7 years that it is shocking....lets start with this season and the shear amount of goals we have conceded. 5 years ago a major issue with our defednig came to light, now to be in a situation 5 years later where we are conceding a record number of goals states the fact that Wenger does not know how to manage the problem.
Then there is this whole placing 4th being a trophy! No wonder we keep on losing our best players, not to mention that we probably struggle now to attract the best youngsters....were we not close to siging Juan Mata?
Wenger has become a parody of himself, the tantrums, the quotes, the lack of trophies.....there is no chance players like RVP will stay...no chance.
Just so you all remember Frobes values us as the 7th most valuable sports brand across all sports, we are forth in terms of revenue in football alone, our fans pay through our noses to go to the football games.....and yet we cannot beat fucking Birmingham FC in a Carling Cup final.......im sorry that is down to one man and one man alone....Arsene Wenger.
I guarantee this summer we will lose RVP, yet as we have Podolski coming in and players like Wilshire returing Wenger will not buy fuck all....and watch the merry go round start again.
Everyone wants to win, but only some people will do anything they need to to win.....those are the people who tend to win the trophies....Wenger won't hence the reason he's won nothing in 7 years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
Obviously he cares and Im sure he wants to win the major trophies. The stuff he churns out all the time about having succeeded in qualifying for the CL every season is just to cover his failure to win a trophy. What is he going to say `yeh I agree I am shit and cant win anything'. The real issue is the board and particularly Hill Wood. He endorses without any criticisim whatsoever what Wenger says and thats what is wrong. We desperately need someone on the executive to turn round in those pathetic stage-managed AGMs and say that it's not good enough coming fourth season after season. But no-one ever will.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Charlie the Gooner
Spot on can't disagree with this at all. AW needs to stand up to the board because while he don't its all on him.Quote:
Originally Posted by jelgoon
True, I agree he needs to go that extral mile instead of thinking he can win things on the cheap etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
You don't need to spend a bucket load to win the league but you can't win it on peanuts either and as soon as tptb realise this the better.
It's all pride. He wants to show the world that he's right and everyone else is wrong. He looks hurt after each loss because his pride has been dented. What he's doing is a bit selfish. He gives young players a chance but it's a bit selfish to expect them to go without silverware so he can prove the world wrong and feed his ego. That is why I think RVP should go I Wenger isn't prepared to what's needed.
or maybe they go to games to support the team because they love the club and are fans? just a thought.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
except he has the best win % in the history of Arsenal managers so comapring to other managers with us, he has been exceptional.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
Maybe but I think blindly going to games when the board have no respect for you and only care about cashing in, all whilst paying the highest ticket prices and seeing little investment isn't the smartest thing to do, it's just encouraging the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
This isn't the same as supporting a small club with little resources and paying reasonable prices, it's supporting businessmen who treat you with contempt and feel they can do anything they want and get away with it, most fans show their discontent at this kind of thing.
Not winning is one thing, the way the club treats it fans is something completely different.
Who gives a sh*t about that though, the history books won't remember win %, it's a meaningless stat if you're not achieving any success.Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie the optimist
I don't think he's been exceptional, 7 years without a trophy rather shatters this idea, if you look at his overall record based on the time he's been here the success he's achieved is inferior to certain other managers we've had.
If 4th place is like a trophy to Wenger he will be on cloud 9 if we make 3rd!
The thing is, a lot have fans have stopped or reduced their attendance at matches. These people then get replaced by others. Additionally, there is little desire amongst fans to destroy the Club.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
I don't believe it would destroy the club though, perhaps give the people at the top a reality check however. In addition I don't understand why people don't demonstrate against the regime more at games, they seem to get away with murder without so much as a peep from the fans, this shouldn't be directed at the team but the board deserve criticism as does the manager.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
I just despise their current attitude that they can say and do whatever they want, you can just tell from the words they come out with they don't listen to any fans concerns and at times tell them to put up and shut up.
We basically have people at the top who don't give a sh*t about the football which is a problem, they're not really fans (unlike some of the owners who buy clubs these days).
That's a nice description of the British (and global) economy in general. You name one corporation that gives a shit about you once it has your money. That's just the way it is, football has caught up with the other bullshit all around us. From price fixing energy cartels through fucked up water companies, price-rigging supermarkets that drive local business into the gutter, extortion on the railways, just keep adding to the list until everything is included. There's no customer service any more, no corporate responsibility beyond the marketing campaign. This is what happens when big money comes into football, you get a better stadium and a worse experience. The stadium's not for you and you can be replaced any time. More of the money goes into the hands of fewer people, your money buys you a whole lot less (that's after you've been taxed to death and the rest has been inflated away). Does that make it right? No way. But it's not just people who refuse to attend football matches, everyone happily takes it in the arse without a murmur so expecting Arsenal to be different is a little naive. We have endorsed this kind of corporate bullshit through decades of complacency and this is the inevitable outcome. You want to change Arsenal then you need to set your sights a lot, lot higher than getting rid of Wenger. He's the least of your worries.Quote:
I just despise their current attitude that they can say and do whatever they want, you can just tell from the words they come out with they don't listen to any fans concerns and at times tell them to put up and shut up.
Exactamundo.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
Footballs a business these days, and anyone who thinks otherwise is deluding themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
No owner cares about the fans as much as they say they do, as long as the money is coming it its good. only diffrence is some oweners see Chucking around as the soloution to their problems and won't stop till they get it right.
All this Arsenal fans are being mugged of is silly, fans know what the board is about if they still go its their choice.
if a season ticket is not costly to you and your happy not to turn up to games then i doubt you care how the board spoke to you.
I've gone to far less games this season - in fact probably the lowest amount of games since I arrived in London around 21 years ago.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
But when I go, I get behind the team. I can't help it, because that is what being a fan is about.
The people at other Clubs that demonstrate against their Club generally tend to be demonstrating against Clubs that have gone or are on track to get relegated. I can't think of any fans of Clubs demonstrating against a team that has never finished lower than 4th.
I know we can and should be doing better than we are - but I doubt we will and the reason why is that Wenger only cares about the League - the Board also seem to do so - possibly for different or overlapping reasons. I think Wenger wants to win it but does not have the capability and/or resources to win it any more. The Board I believe are contento finish in a CL place to get the money.
Wenger does not care about the domestic cups - or at least cares far less about them than the League while the Board don't seem to care because that is not where the money is.
So as long as we aim to win the League without having the resources and making the investment to do it, while not caring a great deal about the cups, we are unlikely to win anything at all.
If we want to win cups, I'm pretty certain it will be at the expense of League position because of the resources we have or are willing to deploy. Some people would be happy for us to do that, others would not. Me, myself, I'm unsure - I'd love to win something, but the League is our bread and butter. I also look at Liverpool - they've won something, made the final of another cup, but their fans are not happy at all. They also have the added problem of being managed by a club legend who I reckon would otherwise have attracted fan protest such has been the appalling state of their team this season.
"When you talk to Arsenal's stadium manager, he is not competing for business with Spurs, he is competing with Islington High Street."
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/17977841
Different game now, the fan is part of a much broader profit equation.
This is the problem as soon as the Uefa let us have 4 places in the CL we saw how the cups began to suffer and has been treated by shite by the big clubs. I mean look how poor the fa cup final was and look how the fa treat it.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Like you say AW don't care about the CC im sure he was upset to loose it last season but its not on his agenda. Same as the Fa cup.
IMO take away the 4th spot as a cl Prize and the teams that win the Fa cup get in the Cl we'd then see the board And Aw change their tune.
The reason i'm miffed At Aw was not becaue we never won the league or the Cl but we should have won the domestic cups simple as no excues.
And his attiude and his players attitude towards it has been silly and disrespectful.
as i've said to you before - go to a game or two, it doesn't have to be arsenal, go anywhere and see if you actually care about the game you are watchin. analysing why a fan does what he does from online has no relation to actually being in the stadium, shouting on your team and hoping for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by ItsMe
calling for demonstrations from the internet does not make any sense and seems a far easier cop out than saying that those who pay for entertainment and to escape from the working week are just putting up with crap.
at the stadium we have given the manager and the players hell when needed, growing far more intense season on season but do you seriously think there would be a mass exodus or people turning their backs and walking out of games whilst playing? seriously, reconnect yourself to what being a fan is before you assume that those forking out every week are being too mild mannered.
Some of the decisions he's made, it has to be said, are baffling.Quote:
As mentioned above, it might hurt him at the time, but he soon seems to forget...how else can you explain what he does in the transfer market and how stubborn he is after years of failure?
Is he restricted in the transfer market? He certainly is by poor commercial deals and the stadium debt, we cannot compete financially with Chelsea, ManYoo or City. But is he restricting himself further? If so, why?
Is it a principle thing? He thinks transfer fees have gone nuts and refuses to pay them? If so then I kinda agree with him but unfortunately you have to play the game these days, he's certainly playing the 'high wages' game. Sometimes to players who don't really deserve it.
Is he looking longer term? Trying to clear the stadium debt as soon as possible, trying to keep us reasonably competitive in the meantime and pushing on when we can compete better in the transfer market? Possibly. Again, I can see the sense in that but I think there's a middle ground of spending more without jepordising our future.
No, you can't. But you can't ignore top 4 finishes every year either. You say it's not that great an achievement. Really? In an era of billionaire owners buying titles and other clubs mortgaging themselves up to the eyeballs trying to achieve it? Name me another manager who has achieved it for the length of time Wenger has. Fergie, obviously. No-one else though.Quote:
The first part of his spell was great that's true, but look at his overally record, I wouldn't say it's that fantastic, you can't ignore 7 years without a trophy.
In the Graham days, as you say, only the top side qualified for the European Cup. I completely agree it should still be that way but there you go, it is what it is. And the fact that the top 4 qualify and that the money has gone nuts means that a top 4 finish is more important both financially and in terms of prestige (because you qualify for the CL) than winning a domestic Cup. Our only hope of keeping RvP is qualifying for the CL next year, something which none of us really expected us to do for much of this season. In the Graham era we could sacrifice league form for the cups, we can't afford to do that now. If anything we have to do the opposite. In the Thoroughly Enjoyable ™ 92/93 season we won both Cups (very narrowly, both could have gone the other way and we'd have been left with nothing) but the league form was embarrassing. After a decent start it was pretty much relegation form. Awful football. We only won 15 out of 42 league games and only scored 40 goals. Thoroughly enjoyable? Really? Looking back with rose-tinted glasses at the end result of the season it was a good one but had the FA Cup gone the other way, and it could have, we'd have been left with just the league cup and an awful league season a bit like Liverpool's season this year. Fine lines.
You say his signings haven't been good but, again, top 4 finishes. Every year.
How can you achieve that with such poor players? This year we have been propped up by RvP but Wenger signed and persisted with him despite his injury record. That has paid off. You can't complain about his transfer dealings on the one hand and then deny him credit when one of his signings has a world class season.
Top 4 shouldn't be the limit of our ambitions, I agree. But it has become the number one priority for all top clubs these days. Qualifying for the CL is more important than anything. It shouldn't be like that, but that's the reality. To dismiss Wenger's achievement in doing that year on year is just going out of your way to deny him any credit for anything. We should have picked up some trophies along the way for sure, but if Wenger was as bad as you make out we'd have been in mid-table long ago and still wouldn't have picked up any silverware.