You misunderstand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Contrast the quality Theo had around him to learn from with that of AOC.
You misunderstand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Contrast the quality Theo had around him to learn from with that of AOC.
Ox has Theo to learn from.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Gervinho too.
Gervinho ##Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Arshavin ##
Santos ##
I don't think it has anything to do with the players he has around him at this point. I don't expect a massive improvement over a short period of time. It's only been a year. Over time, the quality of players around will be a benefit but it's also worth remembering that Theo has been played as winger with nobody to learn from when he's been used to playing as a striker.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
I made more than one point on Ox, you've picked up on the one point that you originally misunderstood and decided to run with that ignoring the other theories. I think it is a combination of my original points, but you cannot deny that Theo was learning in a much more favourable environment than Ox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.
That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.
It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time. :lol:
theo had henry to learn from for a year and a half. how to attack the wing and come in off it. he had pires for a bit, ljunberg too. much better quality to learn from then, ox who had rosicky, theo and thats it last yearQuote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
I've not been defensive in the slightest and can't be held responsible for you misunderstanding a post and then being selective in isolating that aspect of a post to run with and getting it so wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
You have been Theo's biggest apologist and for you to then harp on about Ox is a bit rich. The environments that Theo and Ox have had to develop in are incomparable. I'm surprised that even you would try to suggest otherwise.
Do you really think it takes a year or so of training will do the trick? By that standard a whole host of players should been better or mach2 versions of Henry, Pires, Vieira and co. Training with players for year doesn't mean you'll inherit their talent. Clichy, Toure, Eboue, Senderos, Adebayor, Reyes, Hleb...all trained some fantastic players but never reached the heights of their seniors. I would have thought the defenders wouldn't have benefitted more from training against a great attacking side but it has not happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by ollie the optimist
There you go again, sniping away. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
It was a simple 'What the heck happened to Ox' statement. I've answered your questions and linked it back to the original argument now move and stop bitching because this isn't a Theo vs Ox discussion.
He's not shit but Oxlade has not really managed to replicate the small patch of blistering form he showed last season, then again I don't think he's had a lot of opportunities to really. He rarely starts 2 games in a row often comes on as a sub when we're struggling. He's only 19 though and probably doesn't even know what his best position is, it's pointless passing judgement on a player like this.
He's not shit but Oxlade has not really managed to replicate the small patch of blistering form he showed last season, then again I don't think he's had a lot of opportunities to really. He rarely starts 2 games in a row often comes on as a sub when we're struggling. He's only 19 though and probably doesn't even know what his best position is, it's pointless passing judgement on a player like this.
Ox was playing without fear when he first arrived and your right to say he hasn't been the same this season. But he's not shit and I'd say the same about Chesney too.Quote:
He's far from shit. But just to put things into perspective, this links back into SWAYR post about confidence and Chesney.
the lack of confidence is an interesting part, the downfall of chesney's confidence is extraordinary. he was a guy full of confidence when he first came on the scene and he wasn't afraid of anything. but now everytime the ball gets played back to him he approaches his kick in such a rigid manner. often he doesnt even know what to do, he gets caught in 2 minds.
his confidence is completely shot and it goes to show the disease that plagues our players when they get a run in our side. every season we hope it stops but it just gets worse.
And I think it is a bit rich of you - just like it is a bit rich of you to ask anybody to stay on any given topic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
The only substantive answer in this exchange was when I answered you in relation to what is going wrong with AOC. I agree he is disappointing this season, but there are many reasons for this. The principle one as I see it is the environment he is in, at the age he is, having been found out and with no one who provides the motivation he or this team needs to suceed.
As things stand, I don't see how he can develop. I have no Theo v Ox agenda, I just find it strange that someone who has been an agressive Theo advocate, lacks such conviction when it comes to another player who is going through a similar situation in a much much harsher environment.
On the one hand any Theo advocate would be smart enough not to make the dumb suggestions that oxlaide would *overtake* theo next season because theo stalled under wenger... on the other hand, well there isnt one really. This Wenger cant develop players bullshit is just born out of the laser focus we have on players far from their prime. Oxlaide is about 10 years from really becoming the best he can be, chill the fuck out.
Dude, how can you think a simple 'what the heck has happened to Ox' comment is 'a bit rich' when you put it in context of SWAYR post?Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
You've answered what you think went wrong and I agree with some points because it was a similar experience for Theo. You could have answered the original post with an explanation without the sniping and wumming. It would have been a better conversation if we're talking about player development and confidence instead of bitching.
Nah, you made the defensive jibe when I wasn't being matter of fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
See?Quote:
I made more than one point on Ox, you've picked up on the one point that you originally misunderstood and decided to run with that ignoring the other theories. I think it is a combination of my original points, but you cannot deny that Theo was learning in a much more favourable environment than Ox.
I believe you have been an agressive advocate of Walcott, yet here is a 19 year old in an utterly toxic environment and I find it strange that such a staunch advocate of someone with similar predicaments in what was an easier environment could struggle to think what has happened to AOC.
I'm really not sure about that anymore - that part about Wenger developing players. It used to be a given that a player would get better under Wenger. We all refer back to Henry and Pires needing a season to adapt as proof that players need time to adapt to the league and so forth. But that's not ringing true these days. Besides Ox and Chesney, young players who have plenty of time mind you, we have examples like Chamakh, Gervinho, Vermaelen, Arshavin...some players are getting worse and being thrown on the rubbish tip early. It's really hard to call these days and I'm not as quick to praise Wenger's development skills these days. It's not given that these signings will blossom and I used to be confident that he'd get the best out of players years back. Can't say the same now. But is that to do with the quality of players?Quote:
Originally Posted by AKBapologist
:lol: What's that about? Did I say he was another speed merchant or shit? You ignored that and decided to throw insult. Great work, GB!Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
The development of players in the past had to have been both to do with Wenger and the environment provided by the quality of the players and the experience they had to share. The latter element is now pretty much gone. A young player at Arsenal will now need to be exceptionally strong mentally to make full use of his potential unless we buy in the quality and experience we currently lack.
What about it? It is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
As for the rest, you don't make sense. How can I have ignored something you didn't say?
I did say very early on from the discussion and you've ignored the posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by GB.
PnG
GBQuote:
Do you think Ox has been anywhere near what he was last season? It relates back to what the previous poster said about players falling off in their second season.
PnGQuote:
I don't think it is a huge mystery.
He is played sporadically, is under pressure, has noone to learn from (contrast with Theo at his age) and has been found out. His attributes are no longer a surprise to opponents, so they deal with it better.
Ox has a LOT to learn - but from who?
And I didn't misunderstand you're original. It's a similar story to Theo and posted this to elaborate.Quote:
Contrast to Theo for his age?? It sounds like a similar story to Theo to me.
If you can agree that he hasn't done well this season, as I said earlier then how am I being disrespectful to the kid?Quote:
No, as I said, it's a similar story for Theo. He came as striker and was learning to play as winger when players like Eboue, Hleb, Nasri and Rosicky featured on the flanks. None of them were natural wingers or could teach Theo a thing about playing as winger with pace. Eboue was probably the closest we had at beating players and using his pace but his end product was awful, so not the greatest example.
Theo was plagued with injuries. He had two serious ops on his shoulders early on. Pressure....he was picked for England before he was an Arsenal regular and hailed as the English wonderkid like Rooney.
That answers the rest of your post so I'm not ignoring the rest. It's a similar story. But Theo has gotten a lot better over the years. The original point was regarding players lacking confidence and how we seem to sucking it away from the players. OX was one of them. Brimming with confidence when he first arrived but not so now.
It's funny how you get defensive after throwing the first uncalled for shot. Maybe we can stay on topic next time.
I hope this hasn't been keeping you awake all night.
I'm off to a meeting, but will get back to you later.
But it seems we agree on most points of substance.
Back to the OP - what your argument appears to assume is that there is only one way to motivate your team. For me it is patently obvious that Wenger is at fault for his players' approach to some games. Here are some examples.
- The manager consistently signals that certain games are less important than others. We saw this on the weekend, when starting a 'second string' team against Blackburn gave the clear message that this was a game that we could win without 100% commitment - and it showed in the team's approach to the game. The same applied to last season's CC final - when the team's lackadaisical approach to the run up to the final continued in its attitude on the pitch.
Even our second string should be sufficient to beat Blackburn and Birmingham, yes, but that's not the point. I can understand how Wenger's laptop tells him that he must rotate his team - but it is inevitable that when you signal that your priority is other than the game in hand, this will inevitably translate to your players on the pitch. Particularly when you are not a great man- motivator in the first place.
Similarly, Wenger's tacit admission that the EPL is beyond the club's resources - both in terms of his allowing our best talent to leave the club each season, and in his defence of finishing in fourth place over the seasons is damaging in terms of players' motivation. We are scared of playing so-called 'bigger' teams, and this fear is generated in part by the manager's overall approach over the past few years. If you give the impreession that you will accept second best then so will your players.
I would argue too that the way that Wenger behaves towards his players is de-motivating. How many times have we seen certain players stink the place up yet be 'rewarded' by keeping their place in the team. Players like Diaby, Gervinho have done little or nothing to justify starting berths - yet are persisted with. Walcott is indulged with a central striking role when is is patently obvious that he cannot be effective there against any half decent defence. This will inevitably lead to complacency. Other players - such as Jenkinson and Koscielny after last season, and Rosicky this season are dropped/not played despite being on hot streaks. I understand that to a degree these are issues for all managers. I understand too that in Wenger's head he is convinced that his players will come good. But both persisting with mediocrity and not rewarding good performances will inevitably de-motivate.
I feel also that Wenger over-protects his players. I am not arguing that he should attack them in public, but too often we see statements being made about his teams ability or performances, or PR spin that sidesteps obviously poor results. Compare and contrast Wenger and Laudrup last weekend. Over protected players will not bleed for the team every weekend. You have to get the balance right, and IMO Wenger doesn't.
Finally the lack of coaching, the self-confessed failures both to prepare to play the opposition that the team is facing and to practice the set pieces that can yield 'easy' goals is inevitably de-motivating. Particularly in a team so bereft of leaders, if the way you play is as ineffective as ours is, and if other teams can nullify us consistently, then of course the players are going to question themselves and motivation is going to suffer.
its not bullshit. its real.
look at moyes and the way he gets his players to run through a brick wall for him
then look at walcott failing to track back, gervinho staying up field, even back in the day denilson casually jogging back when out of possession.
that all stems from motivation; if you motivate and encourage players they'll respond and do what you say.
unless of course he isn't even telling them to do that, in which case he is a useless pile of tosh and needs to be sacked ASAP.
Motivation is part of the issue but not all of it. Wenger has this vaunted belief in a system of play that he adopted with the move to the Emirates. A pass and move system that brought players right into the opposition box and has the final ball played through the defenders. Early days he had talented players like Fabregas Hleb and nasri to put this into play. It was pretty but not always effective but when it worked it was good on the eyes. The instruction seemed to be to shoot only when you can see the stubble on the goalkeepers chin. Unfortunately even that close Gervinho will still miss and Giroud will instead shoot AT the keeper. It can only work with really talented players witrh close control, ball retention and slick movement. Barca can do it as thery have the players, but even they can be neutralised as has been done by Inter Chelsea and Milan. Yet the old dreamer persists with the bargain basement clod hoppers he keeps buying to ensure he retains his sales bonus.
He doesnt want to buy quality because quality players have ego and no patience for plainly rubbish methodologies
if swansea and several spanish teams can play decent football, then we can too. problem is we need to evolve the style back from the pure possession at all costs, back to actually moving towards the goal every time we have the ball.
We started our best 11 against Blackpool, make fuck all difference. Moan about rotation and signals all you like but we just don't have the quality to take on teams who park the bus, or defend against anyone with an inkling of imagination.
And I forgot to mention that this socialist wage structure where the shit players earn a lot regardless hardly motivates the better players. This having been said, Since his pay rise, Walcott has stunk the place up.Quote:
Originally Posted by IBK
he scored in the next four games didn't he?
He peaked at the wrong point in contract negotiations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Terry Tuffnutz
Manchester United:
Rejects try desperately to break into the team (all of them), cry (famously Roy Keane, but likely all of them) or go nuts (Tevez) and then either get sold (Berbatov, Gibson, Obertan etc) or request to be sold becasue they really really want to be playing first team football (Neville, O'shea, etc).
Arsenal
Denilson
Diaby
Almunia
Arshavin.
Oh dear
If these mugs ever do have to play they are shit. But its OK becasue WEnger blows smoke up their arse and tells them they did really well apart from those moments when they shipped three goals. Their possession stats were reaelly good or whatever. And dont worry about those set pieces we never attack or defend. Thats not our thing anyway.
Not only does Wenger have no idea how to motivate these players, any genuine competitors he happens to have get disillusioned at the free ride these guys get and the club's inability to reward real quality. So its easy for them to make eyes at their belowved city/barca/utd and yes, chelsea.
Wenger is as adept at de-motivating stars as Fergie is adept at motivating cloggers.
It wasnt always like that