Shocking penalty decision got us out of jail, dreadful start to the season from us.
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Shocking penalty decision got us out of jail, dreadful start to the season from us.
It was obviously a penalty :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ernesto
Surprised it was given though, those ones rarely are but he's clearly got hold of his shirt and then trips him when he's on the ground.
Seen the highlights now which didn't really give much of an idea of how we played. Heard we were awful though. I guess winning a game we didn't play well in is a good thing but worrying that we're not looking good, the other big guns aren't messing around but we've not slipped too far back. Yet.
What a goal by Kos. Where did that come from?! :lol:
I really couldn’t see if it was a penalty from where I was sitting at the time. I thought the ref was going to blow for Kos being layed out on the floor in front of their goal.
The highlights didn’t show much. I’m sure we had a few more shots that went wide but it was few and far between.
meh usually it's the kind of decision that goes against us
the way i look at it is, if we can't play well....at least win and we did that.
It was definitely a penalty.
Of course Shane Long crying about it for 17 years makes it quite funny.
It was a penalty, for shirt pulling. The only controversy here is that so few penalties are awarded for something that goes on all the time. But that doesn't make it a non-penalty, it just means refs are usually shite for not applying the rules, but in this case the ref did his job properly. After that it was a silly dive by Bif.
We were very lucky the ref didn't stop the game for a head injury though. And we were even luckier that Long is so shit.
3 points on the back of another embarrassingly poor performance, but that's pretty typical now. Ozil's performance was the most worrying aspect. He couldn't be arsed until Alexis came on. We haven't done nearly enough in the transfer window to keep these two, despite spending 90 mill, and the godawful tactics we use will further encourage them to look for the exit after we blow another title challenge this season, which is guaranteed to happen given the way we are playing and Wenger's inability to do anything about it.
LDG got it right, it's about a year since we looked like a team that has any clue what it's doing - October 2015 vs Utd. That game showed that with a bit of ambition and a willingness to get the ball forward quickly we can play effective and entertaining football. Even then, we shut that game down in the second half further underlining the fact that Wenger doesn't grasp the importance of momentum. He's the handbrake he goes on about so much, and as in the Soton game he's shown again that he's willing to pull that handbrake with increasing frequency. It would be nice to think we'll go and give PSG a proper game this week. However, it's very unlikely. More of Wenger's conservatism and negativity is on the cards I suppose.
Yeah it's a major worry, we really haven't played at a high level for ages now, I don't think it helps that Wenger doesn't appear to know his best/strongest starting line-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
He's been screwing around with the starting line-up this season as per norm, he always does this at the start of the season. I thought pre-season was the time when you experiment with starting line-ups and playing players out of position and what not.
This season feels like the same as always, the only difference being is we're going to be in a real battle for a top 4 place with the Chavs, Spuds & Loserpool.
It was definitely a penalty, especially considering the new directive from refs this season to punish shirt pulling in the box. Fonte clearly pulled Giroud's shirt and impeded him unfairly from trapping the ball.
However it was also definitely a foul on Shane Long in the build up to that and Monreal just ever so slightly clipped him. Mind you, Long is a detestable cheating cunt who was responsible for decking Koscienly off the ball last year in the 4 - 0 loss to them (for their second goal) so he deserves all the shit he gets. Can't believe there are any gooners who actually feel sorry for him or Southampton.
Hence why I thought Theo should be starting up front. But we’ve played Sanchez and now have Perez up front and we still looked toothless. The pace is there. I can’t understand it. Ozil had an awful performance but he was playing with Coquelin and Cazorla behind him so it’s not as if it’s the wrong combo there. Plenty of pace up front as well so not sure why he wasn’t looking to dictate things a bit more. His touch was off, his passing was off…not sure what was wrong with him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
It seems to me that so seldomly does he put in such a anaemic performance that it becomes a genuine conundrum when he doesQuote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
It is also somewhat troubling that his poor performance contributed so highly to the general malaise of the team even though there were few other dreadful performances.
Walcott wasn't fantastic but the desire to cross or get on the end of things himself was there, Cazorla was dynamic....Coquelin put in a shift....but yet with Ozil looking like he'd rather be somewhere else experimenting with a questionable young girl and the business end of a shisha pipe the whole thing just didn't work.
It's the tactics, if that's what you can call them. Possession based. Ten touched, when one will do. Static. Slow, unless Alexis or Bellerin get bored by it all and inject a bit of pace. The sideways pass when we need the forward pass. The backwards pass ignoring and wasting the effort of somebody who has made a run. Taking our foot off the gas when we get the upper hand. Exerting the absolute minimal level of effort we can get away with, much in line with Wenger's ingrained philosophy of doing the barest, barest minimum to scrape the CL cash (not the competition, because he makes no effort to compete in that, just the cash).Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
The garbage team selections. We have two new players so if you are going to play them both then don't go sticking two lightweights like Ox and Theo in the team. The idiotic rotational policy based on fear and negativity rather than planning. Xhaka has a good game and looks like he's settling, so stick him on the bench. Campbell was doing well last year too, benched. Iwobi looks like he could give us something that we lack, bench. Chambers started well when he arrived - bench him and then tell him he's a CM. This Wenger bloke is a serious fucking idiot and it's all on him why this team is playing so poorly and why it doesn't seem to matter who you stick in there. Wenger will always find a way to fuck things up.
The transfer policies. Refuse to spend, watch opportunity after opportunity slide by, then panic and blow more than you would have spent in the first place but in return for second tier players.
Here we go again. Another season of the same old shit and for one reason and one reason only. Wenger.
When he fucks off everything will improve overnight because we'll go from having a non-manager who can't even get the very basics right, to (I assume) a real manager who may or may not be a world-beater but at least will be able to pick an 11 and get something out of them.
I'm not sure if we could even say there is a tactical plan being most of the time, yes in the big games we have adopted more of a counter attacking mentality (evidenced by results against man city and bayern munich in the last 18 months or so) but can you honestly say there is a big emphasis on a game plan otherwise other than "go out there, show your quality and the result will come?"
The reason we play with too many passes etc, is because that is the natural game of so many of these players especially in the final third.
I think the only thing Wenger has instilled is avoid shooting outside the box unless there isn't a pass available because more often than not it will cause the end of an attacking move (because it will either be off target or blocked with the strong possibility of ceding possession). And in many respects this requires players with the judgement to know when to shoot and when to pass.
The issue with that game was a total lack of tactics, not the wrong ones.
In general, I agree with the problems we have but not for this particular match. What would Wenger have told them for this game that was different against Man Utd? I doubt the tactics vary game to game unless there is an obvious indication from the team selection. If he plays two DM’s, you can clearly see he’s going more negative. When he makes subs and brings on more defensive players, it’s the same. More negative. When he decides to sub a DM for an attacker, he’s going all-out attack. If he was playing Ramsey or a CM on the wing, he wants an extra man to support central midfield. He’s predictable and the tactics aren’t that varied. I don’t think much has changed since the Invincibles. We just lack the quality and the Prem has gotten a lot better. He was never a good tactician.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
With the selection, we were set up to play fast football. The passes just weren’t coming. Not sure what Ozil’s beef was but it wasn’t tactical. He had three pacey players ahead of him and they weren’t just coming short for the ball. Two crosses, a cut back to Perez and that angled pass to Sanchez were all the chances he created. Nothing clear that puts a man through on goal without having to lot of work.
I don't think the team selection is the over-riding factor in how we play. All of our players seem to have been drilled into a stupefyingly counterproductive form of nothingball that is negative, boring, just garbage. And then, because they are talented players, they can somehow pull the odd passage of play from Wenger's shit stew.Quote:
Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory
Start two up top, start one, play pacy wingers, play none. Does it matter when there's always that first instinct to slow the play down, take the extra touch, make the safe pass. Wenger has become absolutely obsessed with possession. T such a degree that we can come out of games having had 70% of the ball but without having had a shot on goal. Just that endless passing backwards and forwards and then the inevitable fuck up with the final ball, almost as if training in the final third is banned.
In the last game it was the same. I said as much during the match. One incident summed it up perfectly. Perez and Walcott were breaking across the backline at pace and pulling defender all over the place. Soton were panicking. I can't recall who got the ball, may have been Coq but it doesn't really matter as they all would have done the same. Instead of picking a runner and picking the pass, the ball was tapped short and wide to one of the full backs who in turn tapped it across to the CBs. Move over. Perez and Walcott exasperated. How many times are you going to make that run again, if the ball just never comes to you?
The you have Ox. He can beat his man. He can inject pace. But when he tears up the pitch, NOBODY goes with him so he has fuck all options when he gets to the byline of cuts back inside. And even if he did have options, it looks to me like he's been strictly forbidden from practising crosses.
Having shooting opportunities open up - and refusing them, opting to pass again, and again, and again until statistical inevitability turns the ball over.
You can see these breakdowns all over the pitch, every match. Doesn't matter who is playing, where they are playing. It only matters that they have had stupidball drilled into them. The defence is the same. Standing there, watching opponents measure up their crosses. Marking giant strikers with midgets. Leaving huge gaps at the back and relating on blistering pace to get back there with last ditch challenges, rather than defending in an organised manner in the first place.
If I had to deduce Wenger's tactics based on the shambles week in, week out I'd say they are simple. Do what the fuck you want, except obey at all costs two key rules. 1. Do not lose the ball, ever, ever, ever. 2. Expend the minimum amount of energy. I think that's it. The entire genius of Wenger in two simple bullet points. I don't think he has anythin else in his locker and if he does then he sure doesn't show it.
Don't worry. When he goes, all those things that are inexplicable now will go with him.
Yes, and those rumours that the players demanded a change in tactics still float around. True? False? Some of them came close to confirming it after the city match. And maybe Utd was the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
For sure, Wenger will go to the ends of the earth to bring in passers and he doesn't seem to give much of a shit about anything else. His crackpot ideas that players should be capable of playing in multiple positions, all it means is nobody ever becomes accomplished in a single role unless they are exceptional to begin with.
And yes, the overwhelming desire to hang on to the ball, even if it means football goes out the window in the process, just keep that damn ball. Pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass, pass... For ever and ever and ever. Pass...
It's horrifying.
1. Do not lose the ball, ever, ever, everQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
If that was a cardinal rule that you are not allowed to break, than why on earth does Ramsey get picked week in, week out when he is fit?
Because in the main he doesn't lose the ball. It's just that when he does it's usually because he's done something dumb, like attempted a flick when a pass would do. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to criticise him for doing something anti-Wenger. Maybe it's a little bit of rebellion in him that he can't or won't shake. The ambitious shot, the low probability pass attempt, the burst into the box that exposes his own midfield. Few of our players gamble. That's because they know their teammates won't either. Wenger has found a grinding, statistics based way to eek out enough points each season to earn CL cash. And I emphasise, the goal is the cash, not the competition. Because he refuses to compete when we are playing in the CL. Not unless he is forced to, not unless the cash it at risk. He's turned winning this cash into mock prestige built on the mock prestige of never finishing outside the top 4. It's mechanically reconstituted football. There's a little bit of the real thing mixed in with a big blob of shit. Wengerball in all its stench.Quote:
Originally Posted by Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie
What we should be doing is telling the likes of Xhaka and Cazorla and Ozil to get the damn thing forward in an instant, just keep relentless pressure on the opposition defence. Run out of steam if necessary - that's what subs are for. Lose the ball 50% of time, not a problem at all. But stretch the opposition all over the pitch and do it fast. You know, like we used to. When we used to win.
From Le-grove. More people who can see what the one, giant, ghetto-blasting, red luminous mega problem is:
And:Quote:
We have a team packed to the brim with talent, and often we are relying on the individual brilliance of our players (Ozil, Sanchez, Cazorla, Koscielny) or refereeing high japery to win us games in a tactically limited set up.
The only thing holding the team back now is the manager.
Most Arsenal fans know this. It is out of an admirable but ever diminishing sense of loyalty to Arsene that he has been given the opportunity to try for one more season what hasn’t come close to working for the last eight. It comes at considerable personal expense to the fans, especially those who pay to go to games. But also to the club as world class players such as Ozil and Sanchez see us celebrate an abysmal but lucky performance like yesterday’s and wonder if they can’t do better elsewhere.
Yes, I'm afraid i's true. The last 10 years have brutally exposed Wenger. The supreme ruler, with no clothes.Quote:
We have a manager who really doesn’t have much of a clue about the issues he’s facing all over the pitch… he’s just hoping if he plays pretty football, and everyone is having a good time, the footballing gods will reward him with a Champions League.
I'm quick to criticise him because he's slow, his range of passing is inferior to almost every other midfielder at arsenal, his tackling is often rash and he loses the ball by not having the speed of thought or movement in order to control the ball first time and run or pick out a team mate.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
I don't think to be fair that I or P'N'G actually disagree that the manager is the problem, i think where we disagree is why he is the problemQuote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
You are saying that Southampton is a result of a megalomania to instill passing football at the exclusion of all else, I think the problem was a complete lack of any tactical plan full stop....it was more a case of putting the shapes in the right hole and hoping for the best and believing that would be sufficient as we are playing Southampton and not Man United/Man City/Chelsea
That and the over-reliance on Ozil to be the instigator of everything we do in attack, and when he decides he can't be bothered it all goes to pot. Ozil wasn't a victim of wenger ball on saturday because he has played so well in so many other games, he was just outright poor and maybe that is Wenger's fault because he has a player who doesn't want to be here anymore because he thinks he is playing for someone who doesn't have it in him to motivate these players into a title winning side.....but i can't see it was a result of any tactical plan.
I wasn't aiming that at either of you, I'm just piling wood on a bonfire. And having an obsession with one aspect of the game to the detriment of all others is pretty much the same thing as having no tactics, so I guess we agree there as well. The fact his obsession is so transparent and so evident and easily countered by opposition managers is a huge burden for the players to carry each time they go onto the pitch. I'm convinced we'd be better off with no manager at all as opposed to having that dinosaur strangle our game.
Perhaps but you i believe are over egging the pudding of what is drilled into them in training, that was suggest there is a structure to it that i don't believe exists.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
His stubborn adherence to a certain philosophy, seems to be more underlined in the type of players he buys.
I thought one problem that people criticise Wenger for is that he doesn't tell the players how to play or dictate tactics.
Doesn't he just let them go out there and do their thing? Which was great when we had people like Bergkamp and Henry, you don't really need tactics when you've got players like that around, but now we're suddenly faced with 3 or 4 squads at least as good if not better than ours and that's where Wenger falls down.
I get that Wengerball is drilled into the players and I think it's detrimental to young players like Ox. But somewhere, player intuition has to kick in. Ozil is the epitomy of what you describe above. You've seen the difference KDB made over the weekend for Man City and we have seen how Payet plays. That is how an attacking midfield should play. Ozil hasn't been here long enough to be totally indoctrinated by Wenger. The lack of creativity and urgency is frustrating to watch from a player like him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Niall_Quinn
But on the other hand, we have a player like Walcott who will probably pass the ball less than our goalkeeper on some days. Totally focused on making runs off the ball and trying to exploit space. Alexis is another one that doesn't fit the mould. He dribbles, shoots and takes an age to pass. He still has his natural intuition to make something happen and to be a threat.
There really should have been enough there on the pitch and enough variation to muster up something more. The only difference I really recall from the Man Utd game was the players having a meeting before the game to G themselves up. They shouldn't have to rely on themselves but why can't they do that more often?
It's a double edge sword. We have some limited players that need more guidance but we also have players that aren't as good as Bergkamp and co. They just don't have the hunger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
It's one of the problems and it's highlighted in the fact that we don't really have any consistently outstanding young talents because they are not coached. Yeah the likes of Bellerin and Iwobi do produce some stellar performances but they also both blow hot and cold.Quote:
Originally Posted by Letters
I accept that young players do have dips in forms and that it's rare for them to consistently play at a high level but ours seem to go from the sublime to the ridiculous, there is no middle ground and no signs of a consistent development.
It's no surprise that our most consistent performers (Santi, Ozil, Kos, Cech & to a lesser degree Sanchez) are our most experienced players, do these guys really need to be babysat? Probably not.
The likes of Bellerin & Iwobi most certainly do.
Wenger is hands off, always has been but there has always been coaching staff there that do work with the players every day in training. Each player will have their own individual things to work on I'm sure and of course the group sessions that go along with that.Quote:
Originally Posted by selassie
As a club we're more likely to give young players a go, which I have to commend. Chelsea we know are a joke in that regard. City are the same. Utd historically yes and last season mostly because of their injury crisis they had to but fuckface turns up and instantly puts two of the most exciting young talents in the league - Martial and Rashford - straight onto the bench. Liverpool, I can't think of many that have made it into the first team and stayed there. Only Tottenham really but I'd argue that has been imposed on then because of the stadium move costs. They don't have a history of doing that.
I think Wenger does do tactics, but never talks about it or works on them as much as some of the others that are lauded for being tacticians. You can't survive in top flight football without ever having a game plan and you don't stay near the top of the table each season by not being able to either. But I doubt it is his strongest point.
I also think players learn just as much, if not more, from their watching, learning and taking advice from teammates in training and in the games. From opposition players, putting in extra practice and international duty with players and staff they are not usually around. A lot of it comes down to how much they want to learn and can assimilate the information around them. It's all there for them to soak up I think. When we look at players like Ox or Walcott for example, Wenger has to take some blame of course but if they are making the same mistakes again and again, then even in the worst case scenario where Wenger or the coaching staff might not be correcting them, you have to wonder at what point do they take a step back and realise it themselves? Making basic passing errors, poor decision making or control - like anything else in life, the onus is on the individual to realise and change. They could be told all of the errors and given guidance on how to change things but if they don't implement them, then even the best coach in the world can't change that.