Match reaction: Arsenal 2-1 Southampton

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

From Le-grove. More people who can see what the one, giant, ghetto-blasting, red luminous mega problem is:



And:



Yes, I'm afraid i's true. The last 10 years have brutally exposed Wenger. The supreme ruler, with no clothes.

I don't think to be fair that I or P'N'G actually disagree that the manager is the problem, i think where we disagree is why he is the problem

You are saying that Southampton is a result of a megalomania to instill passing football at the exclusion of all else, I think the problem was a complete lack of any tactical plan full stop....it was more a case of putting the shapes in the right hole and hoping for the best and believing that would be sufficient as we are playing Southampton and not Man United/Man City/Chelsea

That and the over-reliance on Ozil to be the instigator of everything we do in attack, and when he decides he can't be bothered it all goes to pot. Ozil wasn't a victim of wenger ball on saturday because he has played so well in so many other games, he was just outright poor and maybe that is Wenger's fault because he has a player who doesn't want to be here anymore because he thinks he is playing for someone who doesn't have it in him to motivate these players into a title winning side.....but i can't see it was a result of any tactical plan.

[Niall_Quinn]

I wasn't aiming that at either of you, I'm just piling wood on a bonfire. And having an obsession with one aspect of the game to the detriment of all others is pretty much the same thing as having no tactics, so I guess we agree there as well. The fact his obsession is so transparent and so evident and easily countered by opposition managers is a huge burden for the players to carry each time they go onto the pitch. I'm convinced we'd be better off with no manager at all as opposed to having that dinosaur strangle our game.

[Herbert_Chapman's_Zombie]

I wasn't aiming that at either of you, I'm just piling wood on a bonfire. And having an obsession with one aspect of the game to the detriment of all others is pretty much the same thing as having no tactics, so I guess we agree there as well. The fact his obsession is so transparent and so evident and easily countered by opposition managers is a huge burden for the players to carry each time they go onto the pitch. I'm convinced we'd be better off with no manager at all as opposed to having that dinosaur strangle our game.

Perhaps but you i believe are over egging the pudding of what is drilled into them in training, that was suggest there is a structure to it that i don't believe exists.

His stubborn adherence to a certain philosophy, seems to be more underlined in the type of players he buys.

[Letters]

I thought one problem that people criticise Wenger for is that he doesn't tell the players how to play or dictate tactics.
Doesn't he just let them go out there and do their thing? Which was great when we had people like Bergkamp and Henry, you don't really need tactics when you've got players like that around, but now we're suddenly faced with 3 or 4 squads at least as good if not better than ours and that's where Wenger falls down.

[Power n Glory]

I don't think the team selection is the over-riding factor in how we play. All of our players seem to have been drilled into a stupefyingly counterproductive form of nothingball that is negative, boring, just garbage. And then, because they are talented players, they can somehow pull the odd passage of play from Wenger's shit stew.

Start two up top, start one, play pacy wingers, play none. Does it matter when there's always that first instinct to slow the play down, take the extra touch, make the safe pass. Wenger has become absolutely obsessed with possession. T such a degree that we can come out of games having had 70% of the ball but without having had a shot on goal. Just that endless passing backwards and forwards and then the inevitable fuck up with the final ball, almost as if training in the final third is banned.

In the last game it was the same. I said as much during the match. One incident summed it up perfectly. Perez and Walcott were breaking across the backline at pace and pulling defender all over the place. Soton were panicking. I can't recall who got the ball, may have been Coq but it doesn't really matter as they all would have done the same. Instead of picking a runner and picking the pass, the ball was tapped short and wide to one of the full backs who in turn tapped it across to the CBs. Move over. Perez and Walcott exasperated. How many times are you going to make that run again, if the ball just never comes to you?

The you have Ox. He can beat his man. He can inject pace. But when he tears up the pitch, NOBODY goes with him so he has fuck all options when he gets to the byline of cuts back inside. And even if he did have options, it looks to me like he's been strictly forbidden from practising crosses.

Having shooting opportunities open up - and refusing them, opting to pass again, and again, and again until statistical inevitability turns the ball over.

You can see these breakdowns all over the pitch, every match. Doesn't matter who is playing, where they are playing. It only matters that they have had stupidball drilled into them. The defence is the same. Standing there, watching opponents measure up their crosses. Marking giant strikers with midgets. Leaving huge gaps at the back and relating on blistering pace to get back there with last ditch challenges, rather than defending in an organised manner in the first place.

If I had to deduce Wenger's tactics based on the shambles week in, week out I'd say they are simple. Do what the fuck you want, except obey at all costs two key rules. 1. Do not lose the ball, ever, ever, ever. 2. Expend the minimum amount of energy. I think that's it. The entire genius of Wenger in two simple bullet points. I don't think he has anythin else in his locker and if he does then he sure doesn't show it.

Don't worry. When he goes, all those things that are inexplicable now will go with him.

I get that Wengerball is drilled into the players and I think it's detrimental to young players like Ox. But somewhere, player intuition has to kick in. Ozil is the epitomy of what you describe above. You've seen the difference KDB made over the weekend for Man City and we have seen how Payet plays. That is how an attacking midfield should play. Ozil hasn't been here long enough to be totally indoctrinated by Wenger. The lack of creativity and urgency is frustrating to watch from a player like him.

But on the other hand, we have a player like Walcott who will probably pass the ball less than our goalkeeper on some days. Totally focused on making runs off the ball and trying to exploit space. Alexis is another one that doesn't fit the mould. He dribbles, shoots and takes an age to pass. He still has his natural intuition to make something happen and to be a threat.

There really should have been enough there on the pitch and enough variation to muster up something more. The only difference I really recall from the Man Utd game was the players having a meeting before the game to G themselves up. They shouldn't have to rely on themselves but why can't they do that more often?

[Power n Glory]

I thought one problem that people criticise Wenger for is that he doesn't tell the players how to play or dictate tactics.
Doesn't he just let them go out there and do their thing? Which was great when we had people like Bergkamp and Henry, you don't really need tactics when you've got players like that around, but now we're suddenly faced with 3 or 4 squads at least as good if not better than ours and that's where Wenger falls down.

It's a double edge sword. We have some limited players that need more guidance but we also have players that aren't as good as Bergkamp and co. They just don't have the hunger.

[selassie]

I thought one problem that people criticise Wenger for is that he doesn't tell the players how to play or dictate tactics.
Doesn't he just let them go out there and do their thing? Which was great when we had people like Bergkamp and Henry, you don't really need tactics when you've got players like that around, but now we're suddenly faced with 3 or 4 squads at least as good if not better than ours and that's where Wenger falls down.

It's one of the problems and it's highlighted in the fact that we don't really have any consistently outstanding young talents because they are not coached. Yeah the likes of Bellerin and Iwobi do produce some stellar performances but they also both blow hot and cold.

I accept that young players do have dips in forms and that it's rare for them to consistently play at a high level but ours seem to go from the sublime to the ridiculous, there is no middle ground and no signs of a consistent development.

It's no surprise that our most consistent performers (Santi, Ozil, Kos, Cech & to a lesser degree Sanchez) are our most experienced players, do these guys really need to be babysat? Probably not.

The likes of Bellerin & Iwobi most certainly do.

[Kano]

It's one of the problems and it's highlighted in the fact that we don't really have any consistently outstanding young talents because they are not coached. Yeah the likes of Bellerin and Iwobi do produce some stellar performances but they also both blow hot and cold.

I accept that young players do have dips in forms and that it's rare for them to consistently play at a high level but ours seem to go from the sublime to the ridiculous, there is no middle ground and no signs of a consistent development.

It's no surprise that our most consistent performers (Santi, Ozil, Kos, Cech & to a lesser degree Sanchez) are our most experienced players, do these guys really need to be babysat? Probably not.

The likes of Bellerin & Iwobi most certainly do.

Wenger is hands off, always has been but there has always been coaching staff there that do work with the players every day in training. Each player will have their own individual things to work on I'm sure and of course the group sessions that go along with that.

As a club we're more likely to give young players a go, which I have to commend. Chelsea we know are a joke in that regard. City are the same. Utd historically yes and last season mostly because of their injury crisis they had to but fuckface turns up and instantly puts two of the most exciting young talents in the league - Martial and Rashford - straight onto the bench. Liverpool, I can't think of many that have made it into the first team and stayed there. Only Tottenham really but I'd argue that has been imposed on then because of the stadium move costs. They don't have a history of doing that.

I think Wenger does do tactics, but never talks about it or works on them as much as some of the others that are lauded for being tacticians. You can't survive in top flight football without ever having a game plan and you don't stay near the top of the table each season by not being able to either. But I doubt it is his strongest point.

I also think players learn just as much, if not more, from their watching, learning and taking advice from teammates in training and in the games. From opposition players, putting in extra practice and international duty with players and staff they are not usually around. A lot of it comes down to how much they want to learn and can assimilate the information around them. It's all there for them to soak up I think. When we look at players like Ox or Walcott for example, Wenger has to take some blame of course but if they are making the same mistakes again and again, then even in the worst case scenario where Wenger or the coaching staff might not be correcting them, you have to wonder at what point do they take a step back and realise it themselves? Making basic passing errors, poor decision making or control - like anything else in life, the onus is on the individual to realise and change. They could be told all of the errors and given guidance on how to change things but if they don't implement them, then even the best coach in the world can't change that.