Is Wenger stale or is it us?

On the mental strength issue - I'm still undecided on how strong/weak we are but think we are heading in the right direction. It can certainly be argued that we showed great character to put ourselves back into contention for the CL places after the awful start to the season - where some people - not myself actually started talking about the potential of being uncomfortably involved in a relegation battle.

However, once we had hauled ourselves into the situation where we were in control of our own destiny in relation to the automatic CL spot, the wheels completely fell of the wagon once again. We were out of sight as far as Chelsea was concerned and had chance after chance to leave Tottenham almost as far back - and in every occasion, we blew it. We eventually secured 3rd, not through any degree of brilliance, but as a direct result of one of the worst (if not the worst) goalkeeping displays I have ever witnessed.

This team has shown it can demonstrate resilience, togetherness and the fortitude to go on a good run - a run that without any catastrophic hiccoughs can result in a challenge (an ultimately unsuccessful challenge) but when the wheels fall off and we face adversity when still having control of our destiny, we show the same frailities that we have grown accustomed to over the years. The only constans during that period were Wenger and Rice. I hope that Bould can bring about enough influence to bear on the team when the inevitable challenges to our mental stregth arise next season.

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Originally Posted by GB.

On the mental strength issue - I'm still undecided on how strong/weak we are but think we are heading in the right direction. It can certainly be argued that we showed great character to put ourselves back into contention for the CL places after the awful start to the season - where some people - not myself actually started talking about the potential of being uncomfortably involved in a relegation battle.

However, once we had hauled ourselves into the situation where we were in control of our own destiny in relation to the automatic CL spot, the wheels completely fell of the wagon once again. We were out of sight as far as Chelsea was concerned and had chance after chance to leave Tottenham almost as far back - and in every occasion, we blew it. We eventually secured 3rd, not through any degree of brilliance, but as a direct result of one of the worst (if not the worst) goalkeeping displays I have ever witnessed.

This team has shown it can demonstrate resilience, togetherness and the fortitude to go on a good run - a run that without any catastrophic hiccoughs can result in a challenge (an ultimately unsuccessful challenge) but when the wheels fall off and we face adversity when still having control of our destiny, we show the same frailities that we have grown accustomed to over the years. The only constans during that period were Wenger and Rice. I hope that Bould can bring about enough influence to bear on the team when the inevitable challenges to our mental stregth arise next season.

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Yes, I've thought about that too (ie the apparent mini slump at the end). Given the preceeding season that we had had, I think I'm inclined to give AW the benefit of the doubt in terms of the mental capability of his team - and acknowledge that the end of the season was more down to the fatigue of twice hauling ourselves back into contention; certain players - RVP in particular - running on empty; the absence of other players (Arteta/Mertesacker) key to the balance of our team...

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

I just don't ever feel a sense of confidence anymore when we take control of our own destiny. I felt the tide was turning after we did exceptionally well to overhaul Spurs who I thought were out of sight, but then once we got into a comfort zone we somehow nearly managed to throw it away. I just wouldn't bet on us to see a job through, that burden of pressure is only going to grow as each trophyless season wears on.

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Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Yes, I've thought about that too (ie the apparent mini slump at the end). Given the preceeding season that we had had, I think I'm inclined to give AW the benefit of the doubt in terms of the mental capability of his team - and acknowledge that the end of the season was more down to the fatigue of twice hauling ourselves back into contention; certain players - RVP in particular - running on empty; the absence of other players (Arteta/Mertesacker) key to the balance of our team...

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I think the absence of Arteta was key. When he was out towards the end of the season, our defence seemed to cop a lot of flack for the ease with which pretty mediocre teams were able to score against us but I reckon the problem was in MF. I couldn't believe my eyes at home against Norwich - we were completely overrun in MF as if we had no one there. This resulted in the defence being under constant pressure the entire match.

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Originally Posted by GB.

I think the absence of Arteta was key. When he was out towards the end of the season, our defence seemed to cop a lot of flack for the ease with which pretty mediocre teams were able to score against us but I reckon the problem was in MF. I couldn't believe my eyes at home against Norwich - we were completely overrun in MF as if we had no one there. This resulted in the defence being under constant pressure the entire match.

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Agreed - it was shocking how a limited team like Norwich ran through us like there was noone there...If you remember RVP missed a few sitters too - a sure sign of fatigue.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

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By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

By margins and a great deal of that improvement was down to RVP and his leadership. There were other influential players as well, but we're looking at two steps back when we lose him this season. Same goes for Theo. Last seasons minor improvment just wasn't enough.

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Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Well, Rome wasn't built in a day. Our team did better last season than it has done in the past. Yes, we wobbled when it was squeaky bum time (as did almost all the teams around us, BTW) - but as I say a lot more factors than simply mental strength were involved.

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Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

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Originally Posted by Marc Overmars

Sure - but then things like injuries, fatigue etc have to be dealt with, it's just a fact of life. Think of the amount of pressure and strain we'd be under if involved in the closing stages of a title race, how would we cope? Evidence suggests probably not very well. United didn't have their best (and arguably the leagues best) centre back for the whole season but they managed to take it to the wire. I know many on here believe our squad to be just as good as theirs, so why are we always well off their pace?

There is cause for optimism with how we turned over Spurs but I do think we still have it all to prove.

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Fatigue/injuries do have to be coped with, but for season after season we seem to have it a lot worse in terms of lengthof lay off and injuries to key players than anyone else. United might have been without Vidic - but we had how many defenders missing at various times? Remember that United, Citeh; Spurs; Newcastle all fecked up in their own ways at the sharp end of the season. Not just us.

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Originally Posted by GB.

I think the absence of Arteta was key. .

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This, his presence in this team just cannot be underestimated

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Hmmm - yes RVP seemed like a good leader, but instinct says that a player who has behaved like he has so soon after the season ended may not have been quite the knight in shining armour that he seemed to be. Of course losing your captain and goal machine will be a blow, but it might also restore a bit of balance to our approach.

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'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

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Originally Posted by Flavs

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

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It will be really interesting to see how many he scores when he is not in an attacking team set up solely for him and his style of play. Lets remember that Adebayor scored 30+ and look what happened to him. I think RVP is quality, but he may well have been flattered by playing with us. I hope so, anyway.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

It will be really interesting to see how many he scores when he is not in an attacking team set up solely for him and his style of play. Lets remember that Adebayor scored 30+ and look what happened to him. I think RVP is quality, but he may well have been flattered by playing with us. I hope so, anyway.

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Also be interesting to see how Pod and Giroud score when we get rid of RvP

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

'Seemed'...he was. We all said it, the players said he was important and we can't say otherwise now that he's leaving. It's wishful thinking and sour grapes. The same was said about Cesc. That we'd have a more balanced team if he left. It didn't balance us, just weakened the middle and we lost our fluidity in play. We're losing another good player and it's the reason why we're having this discussion anyway. We lose key players every year and every year people always suggest we'll do better without them or downplay their contribution to the team. Lack of stability is killing us.

But that's a dead conversation. Now, it's about how we handle the loss of our key striker and captain and what Wenger will do differently this season.

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We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

Sour grapes. It's nuts to talk about Arteta and his influence but at the same time to downplay RVP's massive contribution to the team and his influence as captain. Yeah, he's being a dick, but let's not delude ourselves especially when we can see the value of having a guy like Arteta in the team.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

We do have a more balanced team since Cesc left. I'm not trying to downplay RVP's loss - of course losing our best players weakens the team - and we are trading a prolific goal scorer for unknowns. What I am questioning is whether, given his ambivalence towards our team, he was as wonderful a captain as his rep. I think that's a fair question to ask, given the circumstances.

And it aways mystifies me when fans who are negative towards want-away players are accused of sour grapes. What are we supposed to do - support them and praise them to the rooftops?

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Be objective at least. You don't have to sing his praises but to talk as if he won't be missed is silly. Cesc and Nasri were missed last season and if we had them in the squad, we'd have been much stronger. There is no denying that. Them leaving didn't balance us at all. We've never had a season where Cesc and RVP are in great form all season. We've never had a season where we've got workers in the middle, as well as creative flair players, plus pacy wingers on the flanks and strong defenders, plus wingbacks and a good keeper.

If we'd have kept them, we'd have had a strong and balanced team where we'd have cover and balance in all areas for once!

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Originally Posted by Flavs

Also, not wishing to sound like Joker but RvP is over rated

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I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

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Originally Posted by Joker

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

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:gp:

At least be consistent in your views an suddenly revise them because you're pissed off with him.

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Originally Posted by Joker

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

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Well no, you said he was a lot like Andy Johnson which is the kind of dumb-witted nonsense that most WUM like creatures spout upon us on a daily basis.

However he is over rated and any international level striker who plays a lot in our team will score goals. Jesus even Chamakh scored 7 when he was starting regularly.

Who is he overrated by exactly? Not by players of other teams or the press who voted him Player of the Year. And not by our fans up to the end of last season. Its so childish to make out that our want-away players were never much good anyway. On current form he is one of the best three strikers in the world. In contrast, Giroud couldnt even get into the crap French team. I know who I would want in out team
UOTE=Joker;166608]I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.[/QUOTE]

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Originally Posted by Power_n_Glory

Be objective at least. You don't have to sing his praises but to talk as if he won't be missed is silly. Cesc and Nasri were missed last season and if we had them in the squad, we'd have been much stronger. There is no denying that. Them leaving didn't balance us at all. We've never had a season where Cesc and RVP are in great form all season. We've never had a season where we've got workers in the middle, as well as creative flair players, plus pacy wingers on the flanks and strong defenders, plus wingbacks and a good keeper.

If we'd have kept them, we'd have had a strong and balanced team where we'd have cover and balance in all areas for once!

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Sorry - but I see nothing revisionist about a) wondereing whether RVP will be as prolific once he leaves us, and b) questioning whether he was a committed a captain as we thought, given recent history. I used to be a RVP fan. I'm not anymore - but I have never attempted to suggest that he is other than a very good player.

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Originally Posted by Joker

I agree, but when I was saying this last season everyone seemed to jump down my throat and close threads. Now there's a significant number of GWers who are on side.

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He's now an 'ex' and thus not to be praised like he was when he was one of us. People are fickle like that. That doesn't mean anyone subscribes to the views you were expressing about him all last season when he was scoring for fun and single handedly keeping us in contention of a top 4 finish when without him we'd have been languishing in mid-table.

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Originally Posted by Flavs

Well no, you said he was a lot like Andy Johnson which is the kind of dumb-witted nonsense that most WUM like creatures spout upon us on a daily basis.

However he is over rated and any international level striker who plays a lot in our team will score goals. Jesus even Chamakh scored 7 when he was starting regularly.

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No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

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Originally Posted by Joker

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

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Welcome to GW

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Originally Posted by Joker

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

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Damn right. It's a double standard and people need to be called on bullshit.

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Originally Posted by Joker

No, I made the comment about Andy Johnson just a few days ago. Throughout the season I made comments about him being overrated, how he looked better because the team was set-up for him, that he missed crucial chances for us, etc etc. I had a lot of people criticise me for that, yet suddenly the same individuals are making the remarks I did throughout the season. At least have some consistency.

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I think you're mistaken if you think you suddenly have a lot of backing for some of the idiocy you spouted about RVP the past couple of seasons. People are frustrated/angry with him, but some of your analyses, e.g. most of his goals are meaningless +1s against weak sides, are still blatant bullshit (He earned Arsenal 27 points last season, based on his goals and assists - the most of any player in the league).

I hate what he is doing and how he is doing it, but he was fucking spectacular over his last 18 months with us and pretty much whenever he had a decent run in the team.

There isn't a team in the world that would absorb the loss of the quality of Van Persie without noticing it.

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Originally Posted by cricketsi

I think you're mistaken if you think you suddenly have a lot of backing for some of the idiocy you spouted about RVP the past couple of seasons. People are frustrated/angry with him, but some of your analyses, e.g. most of his goals are meaningless +1s against weak sides, are still blatant bullshit (He earned Arsenal 27 points last season, based on his goals and assists - the most of any player in the league).

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http://www.goonersweb.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?t=851

Pretty funny when looking back on when that thread was started and how opinions have changed. He said straight off the bat that we need someone more reliable and well rounded last year. Now look what's being said in this thread and towards the end of that RVP thread. I disagree with Joker's opinion on RVP as a player, but I wouldn't call it idiocy. It's an opinion. I've got more a problem with people now changing their tune because he doesn't want to play for us, even though we knew this day was coming and people were saying they'd understand why he'd want to leave.

"This idiot should realise he's part of the reason we've done so shit in the league this season."

is idiocy when RvP was the only reason we didn't finish 7th.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

Sorry - but I see nothing revisionist about a) wondereing whether RVP will be as prolific once he leaves us, and b) questioning whether he was a committed a captain as we thought, given recent history. I used to be a RVP fan. I'm not anymore - but I have never attempted to suggest that he is other than a very good player.

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I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

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Originally Posted by gooners

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

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:gp:

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Originally Posted by gooners

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

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If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

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Originally Posted by gooners

I have been a silent reader for years, and I recall these same claims being made about henry,adebayor,fabregas,nasri etc. They seem to have produced adequately everywhere else.


With regards to your first point, RVP manufactured several goals out of nothing to save our skins last season. That is the only real quality that got us anywhere near the top last season. Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at. This is why top teams come after such players. So to suggest RVP wont be prolific in another team is actually quite ridiculous considering his record with us. Even adebayor seems to be doing well elsewhere.

As to RVP being a committed captain, who gives a shit. I don't. If the board are happy to keep arming the team with steak knives and send them to gunfights every season, we could have spartacus as captain and he will also say fuck it after he puts in the same shift as RVP did last season!

PHW claims it was nice to sell his shares and make some decent money --- it's always nice to make some money, he says. Why shouldn't the players of the club put their financial interests first? Every member of the board did/does ffs!

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:gp:

Good first post! It's déjà vu. It bothers me that the board and manager keep making the same mistakes each season but it also really annoys me to hear fans follow the same pattern of thought each time a player wants to leave.

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

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Sub :bow:

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Originally Posted by Ice Berg Kamping

If you have been a silent reader then why don't you read my post?

I neither claimed that RVP had wasn't an essential player for us last season, nor that he would not be prolific elsewhere. What I asked was whether he would be as prolific elsewhere. A fair question. In an attacking team that does not play solely for a striker playing in his optimum position, it is reasonable to ask whether he will score as many goals. I wonder, for example, how many Dutch fans see RVP as quite the goal machine as we do.

Adebayor is doing OK elsewhere, yes. But is he as prolific as he was in his stand out season with us? No. Is he over-valued? - Well the fact that Citeh are looking like having to pay for him to go to Spurs might suggest that.

You have an issue with the board? Fine. But don't use that to bracket me with revisionist posters just because I dare to ask sensible questions about some prick who wants away from our club.

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Why are people always so irascible on on internet boards?. Its as if any contrary opinion is a challenge to ones manhood or maybe womanhood (dont want to appear sexist). Contrary opinions that do not make personal insults should not be answered by SCUD missile barrages. It gets all so tedious at times. The man made a reasonable post with no belittling content. This is the reason why the world is in such a mess. Cant we fight with pillows instead of sledgehammers..... can we.

Ok I re-read the post so maybe there was some inferred sarcasm but still, this stuff cant be good for anyone`s B.P

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Originally Posted by Globalgunner

Why are people always so irascible on on internet boards?. Its as if any contrary opinion is a challenge to ones manhood or maybe womanhood (dont want to appear sexist). Contrary opinions that do not make personal insults should not be answered by SCUD missile barrages. It gets all so tedious at times. The man made a reasonable post with no belittling content. This is the reason why the world is in such a mess. Cant we fight with pillows instead of sledgehammers..... can we.

Ok I re-read the post so maybe there was some inferred sarcasm but still, this stuff cant be good for anyone`s B.P

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It wasn't a particularly aggressive post, mate. This was more aggressive...Anyone who disputes that deserves to be laughed at :unsure:

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:

1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

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Originally Posted by gooners

Matey, I am only challenging the relevance and validity of the claims/argument you are looking to make. Just because you deem them to be sensible doesn't automatically make them so. So I shall try again:

1. RVP is a quality player -- whether he can be considered a goal machine or not is irrelevant; His quality in a mediocre team was our only redeeming factor last season. The quality of the goals he engineered for himself and the efficiency with which he dispatched those created for him were NO fluke. And I am not talking about how essential he was to us; I am refering to his quality as a player.

2. You claim he may have benefited from a primarily attacking team. I argue there is no basis for that claim. Why? Because we were not even the top scoring team last season. And we were quite a few goals off the top of the scoring chart. So for RVP to claim the scoring title is actually quite remarkable --- and mainly speaks to his quality than to the team he plays in. The same quality that we lost in Henry,Fabregas,Nasri, etc. And Just because we can't defend doesn't make us an attacking team in the main.

3. FACT: ade is being flogged by city because he had a falling out with mancini; NOT because he wasn't producing. Mancini had his own ideas when he took over. Even so, Ade did a lot better at Spurs last season than all our other strikers combined! So to suggest he is being flogged by city for not producing is a distortion of the facts. Therefore my point that he is performing adequately elsewhere is sound and valid.

4. Do I have a problem with our board? Yes! Is it relevant with regards to your question about RVP's commitment as a captain? YES.
You want to discuss effect without acknowledging the likely causes? Fine. But where is the 'sense' in that? So my point about board is to point out clearly to you where the main cause of the problem stems. You cannot ignore the board running the club as a pure financial investment and then question the commitment of players when they decide to put their interests first.

What more could RVP have done as a captain last season other than put in that performance?

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:gp: A breath of fresh air- please post more :good: